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 Topic: Turkey shoots down Russian plane

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  • Turkey shoots down Russian plane
     OP - November 24, 2015, 07:52 PM
    Quote
    Russian President Vladimir Putin has bitterly condemned the downing of a Russian jet on the Turkey-Syria border.

    He described it as a "stab in the back" committed by "accomplices of terrorists".

    Turkey says its jets shot at the plane after warning that it was violating Turkish airspace. But Moscow says it never strayed from Syrian airspace.

    Nato is holding an extraordinary meeting to discuss the incident at Turkey's request.

    Its Secretary-General, Jens Stoltenberg, has said allied assessment of the incident shows that the Russia warplane did fly into Turkish airspace.

    Russia's defence ministry said one of the pilots was killed in a failed rescue attempt.

    Follow the latest updates here

    Mr Putin warned there would be "serious consequences" for Moscow's relations with Turkey.

    Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov has said he was cancelling his visit to Turkey, where he was due on Wednesday, over the incident.

    He also advised Russians not to visit Turkey and said the threat of terrorism there was no less than in Egypt, where a bomb attack brought down a Russian passenger plane last month.


    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-34913173

    Live updates: http://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2015/nov/24/russian-jet-downed-by-turkish-planes-near-syrian-border-live-updates
  • Turkey shoots down Russian plane
     Reply #1 - November 24, 2015, 07:53 PM
    Putin's statement:

    Quote
    This event is beyond the normal framework of fighting against terrorism. Of course our military is doing heroic work against terrorism... But the loss today is a stab in the back, carried out by the accomplices of terrorists. I can’t describe it in any other way. Our aircraft was downed over the territory of Syria, using air-to-air missile from a Turkish F-16. It fell on the Syrian territory 4km from Turkey.

    Neither our pilots nor our jet threatened the territory of Turkey. This is obvious. They are fighting terrorists in the northern areas around Latakia, where militants are located, mainly people who originated in Russia, and they were pursuing their direct duty, to make sure these people do not return to Russia. These are people who are clearly international terrorists.

    Taking into account that we signed an agreement on deconflicting with the US, and as we know Turkey was among the ones that has joined the US coalition. Since Isis has such huge resources of hundreds of millions and billions of dollars coming from illicit oil sales, and they are protected by the armed forces of other states, then it’s clear why they are so brazen, why they are killing people, why they are carrying out terrorist attacks throughout the world including in the heart of Europe.

    We will analyse everything, and today’s tragic event will have significant consequences, including for Russia-Turkish relations. We have always treated Turkey as a friendly state. I don’t know who was interested in what happened today, certainly not us. And instead of immediately getting in contact with us, as far as we know, the Turkish side immediately turned to their partners from Nato to discuss this incident, as if we shot down their plane and not they ours.


    He makes good points.
  • Turkey shoots down Russian plane
     Reply #2 - November 24, 2015, 07:55 PM
    The Turkmen rebel group also shot and killed one of the pilots while they were parachuting down after ejecting from the plane. Wtf?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attacks_on_parachutists
  • Turkey shoots down Russian plane
     Reply #3 - November 24, 2015, 08:13 PM
    I wonder how Russia will respond to this?  Putin's not exactly known for turning the other cheek, and on this occasion I don't think many people would blame him.
    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Turkey shoots down Russian plane
     Reply #4 - November 24, 2015, 08:13 PM
    For how long we have to keep a country like Turkey in Nato? A country which openly support terrorism and is killing its own people. The West is playing stupid as usual.
  • Turkey shoots down Russian plane
     Reply #5 - November 25, 2015, 02:24 AM
    Quote from: Lassan on November 24, 2015, 07:55 PM
    The Turkmen rebel group also shot and killed one of the pilots while they were parachuting down after ejecting from the plane. Wtf?

    The Turkmen rebels involved had recently been bombed by Russian planes, as part of Putin's well-known habit of claiming to be targeting IS while bombing the fuck out of anyone who is against his mate Assad. Consequently, said rebels were probably kinda pissed with Russians at the time, and since the Syrian war is not generally a shining example of enlightened concern for human rights this is the result.

    There's a bit of background here: http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-11-25/turkey-downs-russian-warplane-on-syrian-border-search-team-hit/6971250
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Turkey shoots down Russian plane
     Reply #6 - November 25, 2015, 02:26 AM
    Quote from: Cheetah on November 24, 2015, 08:13 PM
    I wonder how Russia will respond to this?  Putin's not exactly known for turning the other cheek, and on this occasion I don't think many people would blame him.

    Bear in mind that Russia has a track record of shooting down military planes from other countries that cross into its airspace.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Turkey shoots down Russian plane
     Reply #7 - November 25, 2015, 01:50 PM
    True dat.  There's really no good guys to side with in all this, afaics.
    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Turkey shoots down Russian plane
     Reply #8 - November 25, 2015, 03:47 PM
    Quote from: nbhb on November 24, 2015, 08:13 PM
    For how long we have to keep a country like Turkey in Nato? A country which openly support terrorism and is killing its own people. The West is playing stupid as usual.


    Until Russia is no longer a threat in the eye's of NATO. Turkey is in a strategic position. It can control all traffic into and out of the Black Sea. It's eastern border is prime ground for defensive positions against armored warfare which is key to Russian warfare. The West is not playing stupid. It is taking advantage of Turkey. Turkey while having a large military is not nearly trained nor equipped as well as many of it's neighbors; see Greek/Turkey wargames in which Turkey loses to Greece more often than not. Turkey needs European markets both for imports and exports. Turkey is a useful pawn to NATO and is happy being that pawn regardless of being aware of being a pawn or not. NATO is about politics and war not ethics.
  • Turkey shoots down Russian plane
     Reply #9 - November 25, 2015, 09:31 PM
    But Russia is no longer the main treat  for West. Terrorism is. Or it looks to be, judging by whom western secret services are focused now.

    Nevemind ethics,  yes West doesn't care too much about some killed kurds,  but as allies you can think that Turkey and the West should have same opinions on different matters, which isn't the case,  on the contrary.

    - Turkey wants some Sunni islamist in power in Syria, West wouldn't care if Assad remains in power, but Syria is stable.
    -Turkey wants Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt, West wants a military dictator.
    - Israel
    - Iraq

    West dislikes Erdogan as much as Erdogan dislikes West. And it looks like Erdogan is no longer a pawn or no longer wants to be. Erdogan is the biggest supporter of Islamic terrorism groups in Syria, Erdogan supports those who fights against those supported by the West.

    So, for how long we will pretend that we are allies? That we have the same interests?
  • Turkey shoots down Russian plane
     Reply #10 - November 26, 2015, 12:40 AM
    www.petercliffordonline.com/syria-iraq-news-5/

    Russia is only interested in what they percieve as their own interests in the Mediterranean. If Assad goes down their influence goes with him. They are only pretending to be fighting terrorism. They're bombing the shit out of every anti Assad faction, even the ones fighting ISIL and they don't care one iota about the women and children they kill.

    Incidentally, they've been pretty trigger happy themselves at times.

  • Turkey shoots down Russian plane
     Reply #11 - November 26, 2015, 12:41 AM
    Quote from: osmanthus on November 25, 2015, 02:26 AM
    Bear in mind that Russia has a track record of shooting down military planes from other countries that cross into its airspace.


    Yep.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Lines_Flight_007
  • Turkey shoots down Russian plane
     Reply #12 - November 26, 2015, 12:47 AM
    Quote from: nbhb on November 25, 2015, 09:31 PM
    But Russia is no longer the main treat  for West. Terrorism is. Or it looks to be, judging by whom western secret services are focused now.

    Nevemind ethics,  yes West doesn't care too much about some killed kurds,  but as allies you can think that Turkey and the West should have same opinions on different matters, which isn't the case,  on the contrary.

    - Turkey wants some Sunni islamist in power in Syria, West wouldn't care if Assad remains in power, but Syria is stable.
    -Turkey wants Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt, West wants a military dictator.
    - Israel
    - Iraq

    West dislikes Erdogan as much as Erdogan dislikes West. And it looks like Erdogan is no longer a pawn or no longer wants to be. Erdogan is the biggest supporter of Islamic terrorism groups in Syria, Erdogan supports those who fights against those supported by the West.

    So, for how long we will pretend that we are allies? That we have the same interests?


    The West would very much like Assad out of power and would have intervened militarily right at the beginning of the civil war with, at the minimum, a no-fly zone that would have prevented Assad dropping barrel bombs on his own citizens. They were prevented from intervening by Russian and Chinese vetos at the UN.
  • Turkey shoots down Russian plane
     Reply #13 - November 26, 2015, 12:57 AM
    Quote from: nbhb on November 25, 2015, 09:31 PM
    But Russia is no longer the main treat  for West. Terrorism is. Or it looks to be, judging by whom western secret services are focused now.

    Nevemind ethics,  yes West doesn't care too much about some killed kurds,  but as allies you can think that Turkey and the West should have same opinions on different matters, which isn't the case,  on the contrary.

    - Turkey wants some Sunni islamist in power in Syria, West wouldn't care if Assad remains in power, but Syria is stable.
    -Turkey wants Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt, West wants a military dictator.
    - Israel
    - Iraq

    West dislikes Erdogan as much as Erdogan dislikes West. And it looks like Erdogan is no longer a pawn or no longer wants to be. Erdogan is the biggest supporter of Islamic terrorism groups in Syria, Erdogan supports those who fights against those supported by the West.

    So, for how long we will pretend that we are allies? That we have the same interests?


    The West would very much like Assad out of power and would have intervened militarily right at the beginning of the civil war with, at the minimum, a no-fly zone that would have prevented Assad dropping barrel bombs on his own citizens. They were prevented from intervening by Russian and Chinese bet is at the UN.

    What The West would like is a secular democracy in every country. People in The West genuinely thought the "Arab Spring" would deliver that in Libya, Egypt and Syria. 

    ^my edit turned into two posts. Apologies.
  • Turkey shoots down Russian plane
     Reply #14 - November 26, 2015, 01:18 AM
    Quote from: nbhb on November 24, 2015, 08:13 PM
    For how long we have to keep a country like Turkey in Nato? A country which openly support terrorism and is killing its own people. The West is playing stupid as usual.


    Not long before Turkey acts to prevent a Kurdish state developing on it's current border with Syria. What then?
  • Turkey shoots down Russian plane
     Reply #15 - November 26, 2015, 01:28 AM
    Will this cause Russia to focus on Turkey rather than getting rid of IS (to support its buddy Assad)?
  • Turkey shoots down Russian plane
     Reply #16 - November 26, 2015, 07:06 AM
    Quote from: Rob on November 26, 2015, 12:47 AM
    The West would very much like Assad out of power and would have intervened militarily right at the beginning of the civil war with, at the minimum, a no-fly zone that would have prevented Assad dropping barrel bombs on his own citizens. They were prevented from intervening by Russian and Chinese vetos at the UN.

    They were prevented in Libya's case as well and it didn't stopped them.
  • Turkey shoots down Russian plane
     Reply #17 - November 26, 2015, 01:02 PM
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Security_Council_Resolution_1973

    "United Nations Security Council Resolution 1973, on the situation in Libya, is a measure that was adopted on 17 March 2011. The Security Council resolution was proposed by France, Lebanon, and the United Kingdom.[1][2]

    Ten Security Council members voted in the affirmative (Bosnia and Herzegovina, Colombia, Gabon, Lebanon, Nigeria, Portugal, South Africa, and permanent members France, the United Kingdom, and the United States). Five (Brazil, Germany, and India, and permanent members China and Russia) abstained, with none opposed.[3]

    The resolution formed the legal basis for military intervention in the Libyan Civil War, demanding "an immediate ceasefire" and authorizing the international community to establish a no-fly zone and to use all means necessary short of foreign occupation to protect civilians.[4]"
  • Turkey shoots down Russian plane
     Reply #18 - November 26, 2015, 01:05 PM
    Quote from: Bolton34 on November 26, 2015, 01:28 AM
    Will this cause Russia to focus on Turkey rather than getting rid of IS (to support its buddy Assad)?


    Could be amusing. Will they be pro Kurd because they're anti Turk or anti Kurd because they're anti Assad
  • Turkey shoots down Russian plane
     Reply #19 - November 26, 2015, 02:47 PM
    Quote from: Rob on November 26, 2015, 01:02 PM
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Security_Council_Resolution_1973

    "United Nations Security Council Resolution 1973, on the situation in Libya, is a measure that was adopted on 17 March 2011. The Security Council resolution was proposed by France, Lebanon, and the United Kingdom.[1][2]

    Ten Security Council members voted in the affirmative (Bosnia and Herzegovina, Colombia, Gabon, Lebanon, Nigeria, Portugal, South Africa, and permanent members France, the United Kingdom, and the United States). Five (Brazil, Germany, and India, and permanent members China and Russia) abstained, with none opposed.[3]

    The resolution formed the legal basis for military intervention in the Libyan Civil War, demanding "an immediate ceasefire" and authorizing the international community to establish a no-fly zone and to use all means necessary short of foreign occupation to protect civilians.[4]"


    So Russia and China were stupid as well...
  • Turkey shoots down Russian plane
     Reply #20 - November 26, 2015, 09:34 PM
    Quote from: nbhb on November 25, 2015, 09:31 PM
    But Russia is no longer the main treat  for West. Terrorism is. Or it looks to be, judging by whom western secret services are focused now.


    Russia is if you know anything about politics and economics or pay attention to anything in the last few years. Russia is attempting to rebuild its former economy in which former Soviet aligned states were the consumers of Russia exports. Many of these former Soviet nations have or are starting to align with Western markets. Russia is threatened by NATO expanding to include former Soviet nations such as Poland. The major difference is that a war between Russia and NATO would devastate the planet hence rather than open warfare both sides use politics and economic routes to gain an advantage. Terrorism itself has no economy and little political power in comparison, it is mostly warfare based.

    Quote
    Nevemind ethics,  yes West doesn't care too much about some killed kurds,  but as allies you can think that Turkey and the West should have same opinions on different matters, which isn't the case,  on the contrary.


    I am under no delusion that the West is run by peace loving hippies. Like I said I see why Turkey is part of NATO not that I think it is ethically correct.

    Why should any set of different nations have the same view on every matter? Do you even understand nations and the function of politics?

    Quote
    - Turkey wants some Sunni islamist in power in Syria, West wouldn't care if Assad remains in power, but Syria is stable.


    Which is allied with Russia. This is called deterrence which keeps Syria safe from invasion. This was the statuequo of the Cold War. Both sides went after nations which were not solidly aligned with either side.
     
    Quote
    -Turkey wants Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt, West wants a military dictator.


    Politics at play....

    Quote
    West dislikes Erdogan as much as Erdogan dislikes West. And it looks like Erdogan is no longer a pawn or no longer wants to be. Erdogan is the biggest supporter of Islamic terrorism groups in Syria, Erdogan supports those who fights against those supported by the West.

    So, for how long we will pretend that we are allies? That we have the same interests?


    When those in power believe the gain from such as alliance benefit their national interests will not be worth the investment. Again politics
  • Turkey shoots down Russian plane
     Reply #21 - November 26, 2015, 09:34 PM
    Quote from: nbhb on November 26, 2015, 02:47 PM
    So Russia and China were stupid as well...


    Nope, you are just naive regarding how global politics works and declare a nation stupid due to your ignorance of what you are talking about.  Cheesy
  • Turkey shoots down Russian plane
     Reply #22 - November 26, 2015, 09:56 PM
    Interesting article: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/nov/26/russia-turkey-jet-mark-galeotti

    Quote
    Airspace incursions, granted usually in less politically tense contexts, happen all the time, and generally you’d expect warning shots to be fired and then attempts to force the intruder to leave or to land.

    That the Turks shot down the jet and did so within 17 seconds – with the president, Recep Tayyip Erdoğan, saying he gave the order to fire himself – suggests very strongly they were waiting for a Russian plane to come into or close enough to Turkish airspace with the aim of delivering a rather pyrotechnic message.


    Quote
    In 2012, the Syrians shot down a Turkish jet which had entered its airspace, and Erdogan’s furious response at the time was that “a short-term border violation can never be a pretext for an attack”.


    Sweet, sweet irony.
  • Turkey shoots down Russian plane
     Reply #23 - November 26, 2015, 10:30 PM
    Quote from: nbhb on November 26, 2015, 02:47 PM
    So Russia and China were stupid as well...


    they didn't like the idea but they went with it.
  • Turkey shoots down Russian plane
     Reply #24 - November 27, 2015, 01:54 AM
    Quote from: Lassan on November 26, 2015, 09:56 PM
    Interesting article: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/nov/26/russia-turkey-jet-mark-galeotti

    Sweet, sweet irony.


    Stop pointing out double-standards  whistling2
  • Turkey shoots down Russian plane
     Reply #25 - November 27, 2015, 07:28 AM
    Quote from: bogart on November 26, 2015, 09:34 PM
    Nope, you are just naive regarding how global politics works and declare a nation stupid due to your ignorance of what you are talking about.  Cheesy


    What do you want to say, that the Russians and the Chinese felt that anarchy will follown and this will affect economically and politically the West and that's why they let them go ahead with it?
  • Turkey shoots down Russian plane
     Reply #26 - November 27, 2015, 05:16 PM
    Again Russia is trying to rebuild it's former economy. By allowing the West to destroy it's own economy in wars with no real gains it hopes that nations will look to Russia for it's manufacturing and raw resource industries as it did during the Soviet era. China is already the manufacturing capital in the global economy when the West allowed companies to relocate its factories to nations for cheap labour and cheap good. Russia and Chinese relation are thin due to shift of China's market from a Russia based imports to it's own exports. It is one of the reasons Nixon started to deal with China. Another view is that neither nation has any major ties to Libya so has no invested interest in the nation.
  • Turkey shoots down Russian plane
     Reply #27 - November 27, 2015, 07:46 PM
    There won't be a strong response from Russia, as Putin would not want to risk harming relations between Russia and Turkey which have previously been good.

    Furthermore Turkey is a NATO state and considering everything Russia has done to piss everyone off recently such as the situation in Crimea, an attack on Turkey may be the straw that breaks the camel's back. I see Putin backing out of this one.
  • Turkey shoots down Russian plane
     Reply #28 - November 27, 2015, 10:18 PM
    Russia calls for Ayia Sofia to be returned to Orthodox Church: http://risu.org.ua/en/index/all_news/world_news/61791
    Which side are you on?
  • Turkey shoots down Russian plane
     Reply #29 - November 29, 2015, 09:15 PM
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34953505
    Erdogan is sad he ordered the plan to be shot down.

    But happy that he is getting 3bn euros to take on the Kurds with
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34957830
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