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 Topic: Why I am a devout Muslim.

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  • Why I am a devout Muslim.
     OP - November 01, 2015, 03:12 AM

    Assalamu Alaykum wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakaatu…
    “The beauty of Islam has been hijacked by Chauvinistic, ignorant men, blinded by demagoguery and the grievances of disillusionment.”
    I enter this thread clenching my butt cheeks tightly for fear of complete destruction and violation as a devout practicing Sunni Muslim in a forum like this… but I’ll try my best to address some of the grievances put forth, and tell you why I went on the reverse journey to many of you guys…
    I'm Here to get my arguments and opinions smashed, that's how I learn  Smiley
    Firstly I should mention some facts about myself. Without going into too much boring detail, I’m born in a western country from a mixed cultural and racial background and raised in a liberal secular family, where atheism is essentially our official religion. By the time I was 11 I resolved for myself that religion was total bullshit, and by the time I was 14 or 15 I was an avid proponent of the theories, ideas and arguments of Hitchens, Dawkins and Harris. I guess you could suggest personal experience has seen me consider my faith, a inexplicable series of despicable, euphoric and generally remarkable events, leading me to believe that perhaps there is more to the universe than a random conglomeration of dust, gas and energy. After much deep study, examination, reflection and pondering, I concluded Islam to be the most satisfying explanation for the universe in its totality, and the world around. This may be somewhat bewildering to you, as I guarantee it is to many of my atheist friends, particularly as the dismantling of the practices of Muslims and naturally the Islamic Religion in contemporary western society is becoming increasingly fashionable.
    Why Islam? Well for starters I fell in love with a Muslim girl (Don’t worry about when I say ‘girl’, she’s the same age as me) and she very quickly brought it to my attention that I would have to adopt her religion in order to marry her. I started reading about what I then saw as my future religion and It became clear to me that some of the messages of Islam were so enlightened and profound, that no man could ever construct them. I had previously believed Islam to be nothing more than the concoction of a brilliant Arab merchant. But In short I was blown away, (not a great expression to use as a Muslim, I know) many of the messages and principles that shone through seemed to so greatly transcend the eye for an eye, jealous, barbaric, warlike, oppressive and often brutal nature of man. 
    •The idea that when someone speaks harshly of your religion, that you should respond only with peaceful words, “And the servants of the Most Merciful are those who walk upon the earth easily, and when the ignorant address them [harshly], they say [words of] peace. (Qur'an- Verse 25:63).
    •“Repel evil with that which is better” (Qur’an 41:34). Muslims are forbidden from stooping or resorting to evil, even when being victimised, being asked by Allah to, rather than respond angrily and in a similar manner, act in a way that sets the example, as shown in the following verse,
    “Let not a group's hostility (hatred of you*) cause you to deviate from justice.” (Quran 5:Cool *both are accepted translations.
    •Furthermore these teachings are prevalent in the hadith and in the sayings of the prophet (pbuh)   "To overcome evil with good is good, to resist evil by evil is evil." Being one example.
    Some may accuse me of cherry picking, but these are just 4 of over 300 examples and reminders of this message scattered throughout the texts. The fact that this idea is so oft repeated and reiterated, lead me to believe it to be the fundamental overriding message and impression I received from examination of the texts and faith. Islam is to me (these are words I borrowed from somewhere which currently eludes me) To sacrifice my own desires and wills, which are in many cases not beneficial even detrimental to mankind and to submit them to that which transcends all, represents all that is good, merciful, and beneficial to all humanity. The will of Allah.
    The disbelievers, for which harsh punishment is vividly described, seem to be those associated primarily with an arrogant disregard for their fellow man, placing their own will above that of their fellow human and the creator. Whilst I personally believe Islam is the best guide for moral action and a sound life (I do not consider the current ‘fascism’ which is prevalent today to correlate with what Islam represents in terms of principles, and any examination of the life of the prophet Mohammed (Pbuh) will expose how many have ignored his integral teachings,) I do not believe that non-muslims will go to hell, just for being non Muslims, due to the fact that this belief is determined by psychological and geopolitical factors. Dr Shabir Ally, a renowned contemporary scholar shares this view ‘Allah is not impractical, and to create people just so they may die and go to hell seems a waste of creation, and just Impractical’. In short I believe life to be a series of choices. Islam helps you make the right ones in my view, but this does not mean that because you are Christian or Hindu that you always make the wrong ones, rather I believe there are numerous Muslims who make the wrong ones just as often nowadays, and this to me is a grave shame.   
    I believe many decide to leave Islam due to negative personal experience, disillusionment or the fundamental belief that Islam represents all that is backwards.. Scientifically, politically, socially, philosophically and ethically or morally. I understand that many, particularly those from traditional families who seek and pursue education to the point when they are capable of running intellectual rings around most in their family or community, are further lead to the conclusion that religion is representative of a by gone era, primitive, fascistic and utterly at odds with all that is good in contemporary western society.
    I fundamentally disagree with the idea that those who abandon their faith should be killed for it. This is a failure of Muslim jurists, leaders and scholars, who mistranslate and misread the word ‘irtidad’ additionally failing to consider the contexts of the hadith they provide to support the death penalty for apostasy. Famous Islamic scholar Ibn Taymiyyah himself urged the need to contextualise the verses of the Qur’an and the hadith, as this was a revelation which took place over 23 years.  There is no mention of death penalty for apostates in the Qur’an, and whenever this is the case I immediately become suspicious, fearing the meddling hands of men who later changed, altered or manufactured this teaching by providing some out of context hadith. For example, the hadith where the prophet (PBUH) stated that anyone who changes his religion to be killed, came during a period of war, when the Muslims controlled a single town, and were cornered by ‘the disbelievers’, who literally fought as a united army against the united army of the Muslims. Thus this act was literally a seditious defection, rather than a spiritual or theological disillusionment.  These hadith weren’t proscribed for a 21st century world, and that is clear for anyone with an open mind to see. Unfortunately many scholars either, don’t want to see because it doesn’t agree with their political agenda, or are too narrow minded to comprehend the totality of their own complex faith.
    Many Muslims (not necessarily a majority) have a limited understanding of their own religion, texts, theology and spirituality. Just as the Islamic world has succumbed to a cavernous political and scientific depression, it has also been racked by a deep loss of spiritual and religious understanding, as these revolting warlord grandpa sheikhs in the middle east politicise their theological beliefs, prompting inter sectarian quarrels and propagating a form of Nazi like fascism. The political and economic depressions in the Islamic world has furthermore opened the ears of many to more radical interpretations, just look at ISIS, an embodiment of this phenomenon of how Radical movements embrace and ride the surging tides of disillusionment.
    No nation in the Middle East is 'an Islamic society'. They are dictatorships, monarchies and basket-cases of the highest order. We should look at the contemporary Middle East as an example of how far Islam has fallen, and perhaps examine the reasons for this. In my view they are numerous and complex. (It is far to simplistic to blame colonialism solely, as many Islamists do).
    Everything I have written comes from within the Islamic tradition and has already been said by mainstream scholars, either contemporary or throughout antiquity. I am not innovating or changing anything, and I assure you my views are shared by a remarkably large portion of the Islamic community… I must end this essay of considerable length by saying…
    Uphold the 5 pillars, and the shahada, And you will be considered a Muslim.. no one can take that title away from you
    If they do, then my religion teaches me that they have committed a grave sin themselves, for only Allah (Swt) is the sole Judge of his creation.
    Not wearing a hijab, having a girlfriend/boyfriend, being gay, drinking alcohol, not believing literal interpretations of Jinn’s and Angels, not agreeing with everything a Sheikh says, or anything a sheikh says is not considered proper behavior in Islam of course, but that does not turn you away from Islam, or make you a worse person. Even the most pious of scholars, the most rampant of literalists, are guilty of their own sins, and will answer to Allah (Swt) for them just as anyone. Treat creation kindly, and reflect on this hadith….
    “A prostitute was forgiven by Allah, because, passing by a panting dog near a well and seeing that the dog was about to die of thirst, she took off her shoe, and tying it with her head-cover she drew out some water for it. So, Allah forgave her because of that.” 4:538- Abu Huraira
    That is Islam ladies and gents^
    Please do not let your grievances with and observations of Muslims, affect your perceptions of Islam.
    Also feel free to take me apart or engage
    Thank you for reading and Peace be upon you all.

    Raise your words, not voice. It is rain that grows flowers, not thunder
  • Why I am a devout Muslim.
     Reply #1 - November 01, 2015, 03:35 AM

    You seem like an alright guy.

    Welcome to the forum. Smiley

    "Life is not a matter of holding good cards, but of playing a poor hand well."
    - Robert Louis Stevenson
  • Why I am a devout Muslim.
     Reply #2 - November 01, 2015, 05:25 AM

    After much deep study, examination, reflection and pondering, I concluded Islam to be the most satisfying explanation for the universe in its totality, and the world around. This may be somewhat bewildering to you, as I guarantee it is to many of my atheist friends, particularly as the dismantling of the practices of Muslims and naturally the Islamic Religion in contemporary western society is becoming increasingly fashionable.

    Why Islam? Well for starters I fell in love with a Muslim girl (Don’t worry about when I say ‘girl’, she’s the same age as me) and she very quickly brought it to my attention that I would have to adopt her religion in order to marry her. I started reading about what I then saw as my future religion and It became clear to me that some of the messages of Islam were so enlightened and profound, that no man could ever construct them.

    Even if Islam were all roses, why would it necessarily mean that Islam explains the totality of the universe? That's a monstrous leap of faith to take. Would you have done the same if not for your significant other? Come to think of it, what you've said resembles the dreaded "You can't make a verse like it [the Qur'an] so Islam must be true".

    Some may accuse me of cherry picking, but these are just 4 of over 300 examples and reminders of this message scattered throughout the texts.

    What about the not-so-nice stuff?

    The disbelievers, for which harsh punishment is vividly described, seem to be those associated primarily with an arrogant disregard for their fellow man, placing their own will above that of their fellow human and the creator.

    Don't you dislike the fact that it makes derogatory remarks and generalizations about disbelievers?

    Whilst I personally believe Islam is the best guide for moral action and a sound life (I do not consider the current ‘fascism’ which is prevalent today to correlate with what Islam represents in terms of principles, and any examination of the life of the prophet Mohammed (Pbuh) will expose how many have ignored his integral teachings,)

    Before Islam can be used as the "best" guide for moral action and a sound life, Muslims have to straighten out what "true" Islam is.

    Frankly, I don't think this perfect, wonderful Islam exists, and is a romanticization.

    I do not believe that non-muslims will go to hell, just for being non Muslims, due to the fact that this belief is determined by psychological and geopolitical factors. Dr Shabir Ally, a renowned contemporary scholar shares this view ‘Allah is not impractical, and to create people just so they may die and go to hell seems a waste of creation, and just Impractical’.

    In short I believe life to be a series of choices. Islam helps you make the right ones in my view, but this does not mean that because you are Christian or Hindu that you always make the wrong ones, rather I believe there are numerous Muslims who make the wrong ones just as often nowadays, and this to me is a grave shame.

    That's refreshing to hear. Smiley

    I believe many decide to leave Islam due to negative personal experience, disillusionment or the fundamental belief that Islam represents all that is backwards.. Scientifically, politically, socially, philosophically and ethically or morally. I understand that many, particularly those from traditional families who seek and pursue education to the point when they are capable of running intellectual rings around most in their family or community, are further lead to the conclusion that religion is representative of a by gone era, primitive, fascistic and utterly at odds with all that is good in contemporary western society.

    I'd like to believe that had I been a Christian, I also would have left the religion. I left Islam because I realized the absurdity of god-belief.

    I fundamentally disagree with the idea that those who abandon their faith should be killed for it. This is a failure of Muslim jurists, leaders and scholars, who mistranslate and misread the word ‘irtidad’ additionally failing to consider the contexts of the hadith they provide to support the death penalty for apostasy. Famous Islamic scholar Ibn Taymiyyah himself urged the need to contextualise the verses of the Qur’an and the hadith, as this was a revelation which took place over 23 years.  There is no mention of death penalty for apostates in the Qur’an, and whenever this is the case I immediately become suspicious, fearing the meddling hands of men who later changed, altered or manufactured this teaching by providing some out of context hadith. For example, the hadith where the prophet (PBUH) stated that anyone who changes his religion to be killed, came during a period of war, when the Muslims controlled a single town, and were cornered by ‘the disbelievers’, who literally fought as a united army against the united army of the Muslims. Thus this act was literally a seditious defection, rather than a spiritual or theological disillusionment.  These hadith weren’t proscribed for a 21st century world, and that is clear for anyone with an open mind to see. Unfortunately many scholars either, don’t want to see because it doesn’t agree with their political agenda, or are too narrow minded to comprehend the totality of their own complex faith.

    I like what you've said here. Do you think that Muhammad was a product of his time, or that his character is infallible so Muslims today should try to emulate him?

    No nation in the Middle East is 'an Islamic society'. They are dictatorships, monarchies and basket-cases of the highest order. We should look at the contemporary Middle East as an example of how far Islam has fallen, and perhaps examine the reasons for this. In my view they are numerous and complex. (It is far to simplistic to blame colonialism solely, as many Islamists do).

    What is a true Islamic society?

    Not wearing a hijab, having a girlfriend/boyfriend, being gay, drinking alcohol, not believing literal interpretations of Jinn’s and Angels, not agreeing with everything a Sheikh says, or anything a sheikh says is not considered proper behavior in Islam of course, but that does not turn you away from Islam

    Speaking of which, do you interpret the Qur'an and accounts of Muhammad's supernatural experiences as being purely metaphorical?

    "Life is not a matter of holding good cards, but of playing a poor hand well."
    - Robert Louis Stevenson
  • Why I am a devout Muslim.
     Reply #3 - November 01, 2015, 06:24 AM

    Welcome. parrot If you want to debate, have a back and forth, just promise me you're not like this guy. That's all I ask. Grin

    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=29150.0

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Why I am a devout Muslim.
     Reply #4 - November 01, 2015, 07:41 AM

    Quote
    No nation in the Middle East is 'an Islamic society'. They are dictatorships, monarchies and basket-cases of the highest order. We should look at the contemporary Middle East as an example of how far Islam has fallen, and perhaps examine the reasons for this. In my view they are numerous and complex. (It is far to simplistic to blame colonialism solely, as many Islamists do).


    Iran isn't? I'm sorry but who are you to judge that there is no Islamic society? You are trying to ignore all the atrocities aren't you? If it fails, it's not Islam if it doesn't then it's Islam. That's not a very honest assessment.

    Most muslims don't live in ME. Only 20% muslims live in Arab countries.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_by_country

    I just want to know, how far have you studied the impact of Islam in Islamic countries? How does Islam affect a certain country to behave a certain way? I have debated with some apologists who keep on throwing "No Islamic Country Currently Exist" quite a lot, but I realized that they don't actually know what they're talking about. They don't even understand the political or cultural influence of muslim countries, and they just dump everything that is bad on political+cultural problems.

    You want to know the truth? Our politics and culture are heavily stagnated by Islam. There is a lot of campaign by muslims to align everything with Islam, and to seek justification from Islam before determining the worth of something. Picking a president? Look at how well he does Salat and how he promises to make the country better for muslims. Apparently we're not picking presidents based on their capabilities now, it's just religion. Ever wonder why our politics is so shit?

    Oh, a certain tribe have revealing ethnic clothes? Cover it up... We need hijab for everyone!

    Seriously dude, there are far more examples than this, but in Islamic countries Islam is in your face 24/7. You are still throwing the same old same old "It's not Islamic because I say so" because of your lack of experience and knowledge.

    Quote
    To sacrifice my own desires and wills, which are in many cases not beneficial even detrimental to mankind and to submit them to that which transcends all, represents all that is good, merciful, and beneficial to all humanity. The will of Allah.


    Do you ever wonder why growth in Islamic countries are so slow? Because Allah is the most important thing, and people don't make judgment based on their brain, it's just based on Allah. Peasant farmers who have very little savings? Splurge all of it on Hajj trip. Don't save for retirement or expanding your business, spend it for Allah instead. Yes there are millions of people doing this. It's insane. I used to live in relatively low-income neighborhood and they all want to do Hajj. Ever wonder why they are still poor?

    Quote
    Everything I have written comes from within the Islamic tradition and has already been said by mainstream scholars, either contemporary or throughout antiquity. I am not innovating or changing anything, and I assure you my views are shared by a remarkably large portion of the Islamic community…


    You do realize that's how it is in Islamic countries as well, right? We also draw Islamic traditions from mainstream scholars modern or ancient. Where do you think we get it from? Those grandpa sheikhs that you think are in the wrong? They also have scholarship that back them up. Trust me, they know more Islam than you do.

    Just how much do you know about Islamic countries and muslims really? Nothing?
  • Why I am a devout Muslim.
     Reply #5 - November 01, 2015, 08:05 AM

    -
  • Why I am a devout Muslim.
     Reply #6 - November 01, 2015, 09:15 AM

    •The idea that when someone speaks harshly of your religion, that you should respond only with peaceful words, “And the servants of the Most Merciful are those who walk upon the earth easily, and when the ignorant address them [harshly], they say [words of] peace. (Qur'an- Verse 25:63).


    Too bad Islam views on blasphemy which renders your point moot due to a contradiction.

    Quote
    “Repel evil with that which is better” (Qur’an 41:34). Muslims are forbidden from stooping or resorting to evil, even when being victimised, being asked by Allah to, rather than respond angrily and in a similar manner, act in a way that sets the example, as shown in the following verse


    1 Peter 3:9, Romans 12:17-21, 1 Thessalonians 5:15. Both the OT, NT and Paul's "Letters" have multiple references to repaying evil with good.

     
    Quote
    •Furthermore these teachings are prevalent in the hadith and in the sayings of the prophet (pbuh)   "To overcome evil with good is good, to resist evil by evil is evil." Being one example. 


    Mathew 5:39, Romans 12:17-21, Luke 6:27-36

    Quote
    Some may accuse me of cherry picking, but these are just 4 of over 300 examples and reminders of this message scattered throughout the texts. The fact that this idea is so oft repeated and reiterated, lead me to believe it to be the fundamental overriding message and impression I received from examination of the texts and faith. Islam is to me (these are words I borrowed from somewhere which currently eludes me) To sacrifice my own desires and wills, which are in many cases not beneficial even detrimental to mankind and to submit them to that which transcends all, represents all that is good, merciful, and beneficial to all humanity. The will of Allah.


    Lets just put the cherry picking issue aside for the moment. My points above are to show that a text containing good ideas does not mean the text is from God.

    Quote
    The disbelievers, for which harsh punishment is vividly described, seem to be those associated primarily with an arrogant disregard for their fellow man, placing their own will above that of their fellow human and the creator. Whilst I personally believe Islam is the best guide for moral action and a sound life (I do not consider the current ‘fascism’ which is prevalent today to correlate with what Islam represents in terms of principles, and any examination of the life of the prophet Mohammed (Pbuh) will expose how many have ignored his integral teachings,) I do not believe that non-muslims will go to hell, just for being non Muslims, due to the fact that this belief is determined by psychological and geopolitical factors. Dr Shabir Ally, a renowned contemporary scholar shares this view ‘Allah is not impractical, and to create people just so they may die and go to hell seems a waste of creation, and just Impractical’. In short I believe life to be a series of choices. Islam helps you make the right ones in my view, but this does not mean that because you are Christian or Hindu that you always make the wrong ones, rather I believe there are numerous Muslims who make the wrong ones just as often nowadays, and this to me is a grave shame.


    It is an error to ignore how believers acts when said acts are based on their interpretation of Islam. Also you are cherry picking. You are selecting one view you agree with while rejecting other interpretations which you do not.

    Quote
    I believe many decide to leave Islam due to negative personal experience, disillusionment or the fundamental belief that Islam represents all that is backwards.. Scientifically, politically, socially, philosophically and ethically or morally. I understand that many, particularly those from traditional families who seek and pursue education to the point when they are capable of running intellectual rings around most in their family or community, are further lead to the conclusion that religion is representative of a by gone era, primitive, fascistic and utterly at odds with all that is good in contemporary western society.


    This statement is in error due to a generalization. Not every religion or religious view is at odds with western society. It is those that attempt to dictate how non-believers live and injection of religious beliefs in government that are at odds. For every person supporting such ideas there are people that oppose them that are just as religious.

    Quote
    I fundamentally disagree with the idea that those who abandon their faith should be killed for it. This is a failure of Muslim jurists, leaders and scholars, who mistranslate and misread the word ‘irtidad’ additionally failing to consider the contexts of the hadith they provide to support the death penalty for apostasy. Famous Islamic scholar Ibn Taymiyyah himself urged the need to contextualise the verses of the Qur’an and the hadith, as this was a revelation which took place over 23 years.  There is no mention of death penalty for apostates in the Qur’an, and whenever this is the case I immediately become suspicious, fearing the meddling hands of men who later changed, altered or manufactured this teaching by providing some out of context hadith. For example, the hadith where the prophet (PBUH) stated that anyone who changes his religion to be killed, came during a period of war, when the Muslims controlled a single town, and were cornered by ‘the disbelievers’, who literally fought as a united army against the united army of the Muslims. Thus this act was literally a seditious defection, rather than a spiritual or theological disillusionment.  These hadith weren’t proscribed for a 21st century world, and that is clear for anyone with an open mind to see. Unfortunately many scholars either, don’t want to see because it doesn’t agree with their political agenda, or are too narrow minded to comprehend the totality of their own complex faith.
    Many Muslims (not necessarily a majority) have a limited understanding of their own religion, texts, theology and spirituality. Just as the Islamic world has succumbed to a cavernous political and scientific depression, it has also been racked by a deep loss of spiritual and religious understanding, as these revolting warlord grandpa sheikhs in the middle east politicise their theological beliefs, prompting inter sectarian quarrels and propagating a form of Nazi like fascism. The political and economic depressions in the Islamic world has furthermore opened the ears of many to more radical interpretations, just look at ISIS, an embodiment of this phenomenon of how Radical movements embrace and ride the surging tides of disillusionment.


    No Mo had created an alliance which included non-Muslims so your explaination is in error. Besides you cites hadith in support but reject hadith that oppose your view. You just cherry picked repeatedly. You cite hadith in one case then claim hadith are not for the modern world.

    Quote
    No nation in the Middle East is 'an Islamic society'. They are dictatorships, monarchies and basket-cases of the highest order. We should look at the contemporary Middle East as an example of how far Islam has fallen, and perhaps examine the reasons for this. In my view they are numerous and complex. (It is far to simplistic to blame colonialism solely, as many Islamists do).


    By this standard there has no been a Islamic society for almost 14 centuries. Colonialism is not Islam's or Muslims problems as there have been cracked in Islamic societies throughout history. Just like an other society.

    Quote
    Everything I have written comes from within the Islamic tradition and has already been said by mainstream scholars, either contemporary or throughout antiquity. I am not innovating or changing anything, and I assure you my views are shared by a remarkably large portion of the Islamic community… I must end this essay of considerable length by saying…
    Uphold the 5 pillars, and the shahada, And you will be considered a Muslim.. no one can take that title away from you


    You mean tradition you agree with over the traditions you disagree with. You just ignores a vast amount of views in your arguments.

    Quote
    Not wearing a hijab, having a girlfriend/boyfriend, being gay, drinking alcohol, not believing literal interpretations of Jinn’s and Angels, not agreeing with everything a Sheikh says, or anything a sheikh says is not considered proper behavior in Islam of course, but that does not turn you away from Islam, or make you a worse person. Even the most pious of scholars, the most rampant of literalists, are guilty of their own sins, and will answer to Allah (Swt) for them just as anyone. Treat creation kindly, and reflect on this hadith….
    “A prostitute was forgiven by Allah, because, passing by a panting dog near a well and seeing that the dog was about to die of thirst, she took off her shoe, and tying it with her head-cover she drew out some water for it. So, Allah forgave her because of that.” 4:538- Abu Huraira


    Flip/flop standard mentioned above.

    Quote
    That is Islam ladies and gents^
    Please do not let your grievances with and observations of Muslims, affect your perceptions of Islam.
    Also feel free to take me apart or engage
    Thank you for reading and Peace be upon you all.


    That is your view of Islam.
  • Why I am a devout Muslim.
     Reply #7 - November 01, 2015, 10:23 AM

    Helaine,
    Firstly I'd request you don't whitewash all apologists, I am not them, they are not me. You don't know my level of education or experience with Muslim countries, but you assumed it was minimal. I do not appreciate such assumptions. I lived in a Muslim country for two years.
    Most Muslims in South and South East Asia, I am well aware of this, consider;
    I wrote what I did as a preemptive address to those who use the 'but look at the middle east'  finmad line to refute my points about justice, peace and humanitarianism in Islam. It was simplistic because it was actually not one of my major points, but since you seem passionate about the topic I will address the points you made.

    In The middle ages, the catholic church and religion was used as a means of maintaining the feudal system and the perpetual enslavement of the lower classes, who were compelled to do the bidding of their god for fear of eternal punishment which, interestingly enough, coincided with the bidding of the rulers of the time. The crusades are an example of how scriptural and religious can be warped easily into giving credence and support to political motivations.
    My point, It is the politicization of Islam at the hands of more intelligent and cunning men whom use it as a means to fulfill political ambitions that has resulted in the degraded state of Islam. I like the term 'grandpa sheikhs and i'm not referring to scholars necessarily, rather those who malicious puppeteers who contradict the teachings of Islam by in-sighting inter-sectarian and societal divisions.

    I say these societies are Un-Islamic because they contradict fundamental teachings in the Qur'an and the Hadith. That is all. I believe there to be a clear disparity between my understanding of Islam but more importantly the understandings of many of the scholars that I read

    You are trying to ignore all the atrocities aren't you? If it fails, it's not Islam if it doesn't then it's Islam. That's not a very honest assessment.
    No I'm not. We need a stronger authority within the religion as to what Islam is and what Politics Is. There has been an unfortunate fusion between the two of late. Islam is a religion.

    You want to know the truth? Our politics and culture are heavily stagnated by Islam. There is a lot of campaign by muslims to align everything with Islam, and to seek justification from Islam before determining the worth of something. Picking a president? Look at how well he does Salat and how he promises to make the country better for muslims. Apparently we're not picking presidents based on their capabilities now, it's just religion. Ever wonder why our politics is so shit?
    Yo

    Oh, a certain tribe have revealing ethnic clothes? Cover it up... We need hijab for everyone!
    It is not said Anywhere in the Qur'an that a woman should be forced to wear the Hijab.
     
    Do you ever wonder why growth in Islamic countries are so slow? Because Allah is the most important thing, and people don't make judgment based on their brain, it's just based on Allah. Peasant farmers who have very little savings? Splurge all of it on Hajj trip. Don't save for retirement or expanding your business, spend it for Allah instead. Yes there are millions of people doing this. It's insane. I used to live in relatively low-income neighborhood and they all want to do Hajj. Ever wonder why they are still poor?
    It is quite actively discouraged in Islam to go on Hajj if you lack the financial capabilities to do so. This is the scholarly consensus and has always been quite emphatic.
    Are you seriously suggesting Hajj to be the reason that Islamic countries are dealing with such profoundly poor economic growth? In Iran, i'd say its attributable to the considerable sanctions of the last two decades, and one of the most brutal wars of the modern era. In Saudi Arabia, a Wahabbi society, which is a fringe and almost fascistic Islamic movement, its due to rife corruption at the hands of the decadent oil magnates and royals, who use Islam as a tool to maintain order and subservience to the state, In Sudan its once again due to rife political instability due to ethnic tensions and war, In Pakistan its due to chronic poverty, overpopulation and poor distribution of wealth, in Afghanistan its due to an almost chronic history of conflict, in north africa, poor distribution of wealth and conflict.
    Very rarely is Islam the cause of poverty in society, and furthermore, in how many of these so called Islamic societies is the remedy for poverty 'the zakat' enforced.
    Never.

    You do realize that's how it is in Islamic countries as well, right? We also draw Islamic traditions from mainstream scholars modern or ancient. Where do you think we get it from? Those grandpa sheikhs that you think are in the wrong? They also have scholarship that back them up. Trust me, they know more Islam than you do.
    The problem is with their interpretation.
    They may know the texts better than me, but my assertion (well not actually mine, I borrowed it from scholars) is that the way they view this text is narrow and thus their understanding limited. This is because none pay heed to context of the revelation, and their are often ulterior motives for their chosen means of interpretation, rather than the acquisition of a profound spiritual understanding.  Furthermore you have again managed to highlight one of my primary ideas about Islam, that it is used as a political tool, by men seeking power. There is warranty there if you would like to superficially extract a contextualized hadith about those who deviate from the faith in order to sanction the murder and intolerance we are seeing presently today. Our crisis is a lack of authority if anything.

    Just how much do you know about Islamic countries and muslims really? Nothing?
    How much do you think the Islam in the Middle East today is about personal spirituality and the unity of the ummah?and how much do you think is about politics?
    Furthermore you accuse me of lack of knowledge of the political situation in the middle east.
    What is your understanding of classical Islamic studies?


    Raise your words, not voice. It is rain that grows flowers, not thunder
  • Why I am a devout Muslim.
     Reply #8 - November 01, 2015, 10:26 AM

    sorry guys my quotes didn't seperate

    Raise your words, not voice. It is rain that grows flowers, not thunder
  • Why I am a devout Muslim.
     Reply #9 - November 01, 2015, 10:35 AM

    Olweasal, Thank you for your reply
    I havent figured out how to split quotes yet.

    What about the not-so-nice stuff?

    What exactly are you referring to?

    Don't you dislike the fact that it makes derogatory remarks and generalizations about disbelievers?

    Disbelievers are always associated with the evils and wrongs of the world yes, but rather I consider it inversely. I believe the disbelievers to be the people who commit cruel and preposterous acts, who reject all that is ‘beneficent and merciful’, Names of Allah (swt). I do not consider that if you have never heard of Islam or have ignored it for various reasons but still live a moral life, that you fit the category of people described in the Qur’an. I also believe this because the Qur’an was revealed at a time when the disbelievers were literally the blokes trying to kill the Muslims. This is not considered or directed to all who take theological objection to the doctrine of Islam or those whose ears it hadn’t yet reached. This is actually a notion echoed by many scholars, it’s not just part of my dream Islam.
    I hope you understand what I’m trying to communicate.


    Frankly, I don't think this perfect, wonderful Islam exists, and is a romanticization.

    The current state of the world would naturally prompt you to hold this view. Understandable but of course I completely disagree, I believe there are many in the world who share these idealistic beliefs, Its just the other guys who both make the most noise, and receive the most attention



    I'd like to believe that had I been a Christian, I also would have left the religion. I left Islam because I realized the absurdity of god-belief.

    I do not consider the absurdity of atheism to be why I left it. Rather I see atheism as an understandable but misguided position.
    I think to categorically deny anything and label it as absurd, particularly when we don’t know the answer, is as arrogant and dogmatic as the extreme religious view. When has humanity ever understood anything to be created without the presence of a creator, and why is this not applicable to the universe?
    From study of every field, be it History, science, philosophy… whatever, We know that objective truth is often unascertainable, and in the case of religion vs science, it currently is.
    Rather in the cases where there is no truth, we find the truth that is most comfortable to ourselves, the subjective truth. My god speaks to me every day, and whether you see him or not is not my business. Of course I can hope to convince you of his existence, but even the Qur’an says I can’t force you, and as I wrote, this doesn’t make you a worse person.
    Consider though however that You guys don’t know why the universe was created or even how it was created… at this point, nobody does, so it’s arrogant to suggest the atheistic view to be more correct. What is right through my eyes may be nonsense to you, and vice versa.
    We can intellectually joust into eternity over whether god exists, and every point we make will have been made, answered and retorted by many atheists and believers having exactly the same debate before us. In The words of scholar Tariq Ramadan,
    “Science tells us how we came into existence. Islam shows us why we came into existence”
    My ultimate goal is to make sense of the world around me, and the prescriptions of Islam seemed to really work for me. Also as I mentioned, The Qur’an didn’t seem contradictory or convoluted as Christian theology or other religions did. From my life lessons I learnt the hard way that many of the prescriptions of Islam, the primary one to be “to always take the better action”, truly made my life better.

    I like what you've said here. Do you think that Muhammad was a product of his time, or that his character is infallible so Muslims today should try to emulate him?

    In summary yes I believe the prophet (Pbuh) should be emulated, but that we should rather try and interpret it in a way more like ‘hmm what would the prophet (pbuh) do if he were here now in this situation?, rather than, ‘let’s make this society like 7th century Arabia so we can do exactly what he did’ . I am interested to hear your thoughts on this… do you think he’s a good example?



    What is a true Islamic society?

    A disclaimer. I won’t hide any of my honest views on this matter. So get your extremist labels out should you be one who tends to brandish them vigorously.
    Many have tried to envision this Islamic society; I suppose the closest examples are long deceased, potentially the early-middle ottoman era, Baghdad in the early Middle ages and Al Andalus.
    I remember this from a fairly conservative Uzbek scholar; Muhammad Shodiq Muhammad Yusuf
    ‘We want to follow the true Mujahids, the blessed ancestors, and spread toleration and brotherhood. We also want to eradicate religious illiteracy and to put a stop to our contradictions and splits, to purge our fanaticism, and our sinful affairs.’
    I guess a united, harmonious and pluralistic society in which the fundamental rights of all creation are respected, would to me be an ideal Islamic society. Plus hijabs, Minus Interest banking
    It may diminish me in your eyes but I admittedly support many aspects of the sharia. I’m not talking about the Taliban/ Isis interpretation, which is just the law of conservative men essentially, but I like the idea of a law that reflects Islamic principles, transcends man made law and protects creation. I don’t reject the idea of a caliphate for Muslims in theory, if it is voluntarily established and operated properly. I actually think the appointment of some kind of caliph or leader would be an answer to the  Sunni Muslims need urgent need of a figure head or authority who, even if his judgements aren’t binding and subject to secular scrutiny, could provide some influence and reason, drowning out the voices of fringe or more radical groups. After all it is the lack of authority and ambiguity as to ‘what is true Islam that is, I believe, the ultimate problem facing the Islamic world.  However think free speech is integral, civil engagement important, and rights for all citizens ensured. If my idealistic, utopian Islamic society is not to be realised then democracy is the best system of government available.



    Do you interpret the Qur'an and accounts of Muhammad's supernatural experiences as being purely metaphorical?

    I believe in the revelation, however there are aspects and verses of the Qur’an, I believe are metaphorical or allegorical.
    It is acceptable to approach some aspects of the Qur’an and revelation with an understanding they are metaphorical and allegorical, However I must vehemently and clearly state that are aspects that must be taken literally, 5 Pillars, principal beliefs, Tawhid, Salat, and the proscriptions of how to live for example.  Nonetheless I surmise there are clearly those verses, and fables which are used to emphasise a message or Qur’anic principle. For example I do not hold Lut to be a real place, or the literal occurrence of a great flood. It is however contrary to mainstream Islamic theology to endorse ‘human’ evolution and to perceive the events of the revelation as metaphorical. Two points atheists generally object to.


    Even if Islam were all roses, why would it necessarily mean that Islam explains the totality of the universe? That's a monstrous leap of faith to take. Would you have done the same if not for your significant other? Come to think of it, what you've said resembles the dreaded "You can't make a verse like it [the Qur'an] so Islam must be true".

    The ‘then let them produce a verse like it’ is I think used a little like ‘get out of jail free card’ for apologists who want to put a final end to a discussion of whether or not the Qur’an is the word of god. 
    This is an excellent point. But one I have considered deeply. If she were Jewish or Christian would I have then seen the beauty in those religions, and past that, the truth of the universe in them? I studied Christianity, Buddhism and Hinduism, admittedly much less Judaism, which to me seemed primarily focused on the privileged history of one people and their toils and tribulations, in considerable depth.  Buddhism taught me ‘enlightenment was knowing the man’s purpose in Life’, but also ‘that the purpose of life was to reach enlightenment’. So I walked away from that. I’m no expert in comparative religion however my examination of Christianity exposed the blatantly fraudulent nature of its past, I’m somewhat convinced now that prior to Emperor Constantine and the council of Nicaea in 325 it was non-existent or unrecognisable when compared to contemporary Christianity. Not to mention the fact that the oldest known bible varied in something like 14,000 different places from the current ones, and omitted key doctrines found within Christianity today, namely resurrection. Furthermore the idea of the trinity seemed convoluted and contradictory. Also I found the Idea of original sin in Catholicism to profoundly regrettable, and welcomed the Islamic teaching that human beings are born in a pure state. Primarily…. I loved the idea that if there was a creator or god he/she/it was incomprehensible and transcendent and that the human being can’t consider or understand her/him/it, as he/she/it is of a greater dimension. Often I hear atheists or agnostics rather, cite belief in a ‘higher power’, but not a god as we know ‘him’. This primarily comes from Christians upon whom are imprinted images of a rather muscular bearded man in the sky who lives on a cloud, as god is often depicted in renaissance and medieval art thusly. Islam makes no attempt to suggest what form the creator takes, and the idea that in Christianity, he sends himself in human form down to die for the sins of the creation he created, seemed really problematic. Rather I have no issue in understanding that certain people throughout history have received access to a message that transcends typical human wants, desires and ideals, inspired perhaps by this transcendent force whom fears for the existence and wellbeing of his creation but similarly desires they maintain the ability to forge their own paths. I am of course referring to the relationship between prophecy, Allah (swt) and revelation. Moreover the Qur’an didn’t deny reality, these was no assertions that the earth was created in 6 or 7 days, and there even some ideas, I reject the notion of them being miracles, that really made me ponder the world and universe and that is perceived by many scholars as the purpose of these Quranic verses, to initiate a reflection or rational questioning.
    “Have those who disbelieved not considered that the heavens and the earth were a joined entity, and We separated them and made from water every living thing? Then will they not believe?”
    Everything is a leap of faith when we don’t know the truth.

    Raise your words, not voice. It is rain that grows flowers, not thunder
  • Why I am a devout Muslim.
     Reply #10 - November 01, 2015, 10:38 AM

    Thank you guys have given me lots to consider, please continue

    Raise your words, not voice. It is rain that grows flowers, not thunder
  • Why I am a devout Muslim.
     Reply #11 - November 01, 2015, 11:42 AM

    bogart and absurdist thank you for your respective replies,
    i addressed the points you made about 'why Islam and not another faith'. It is a personal choice for me and i was drawn to the symbols, ideas and messages of Islam, furthermore i took offence to many of the christian doctrines, although i am well aware of their similarities.
    I Think you missed some of my points though
    I did not say Hadith were not for the modern world. i said they were not written 'in' the modern world.
    there is a considerable misunderstanding there
    I said we must pay greater heed to the principals within, rather than focusing on a Literalist interpretation. This is not 7th century Arabia, and we are looking at a revelation which took place over 23 years.
    I am not dismissing hadith such as the one on apostasy, i am urging its contextualization. I don't believe its meaning to be the murder of people to have problems with the theology of Islam.
    Likewise i wanted to demonstrate how the higher action was a principal of Islam, this is not cherry picking this is a trend, i never inferred it was unique to Islam.
    I agree with scholars such as Tariq Ramadan on positions of Blasphemy. It is between the blasphemer and god. Furthermore actions are clearly judged on the basis of intentions in Islam, if you are sincere and you make a mistake or if you are in a forum which encourages debate and criticism, than such discussion is welcome.
    It is the sinister and vulgar defamation of the prophet (pbuh) or allah (swt) or the deliberate in-sighting of hatred and anger that has traditionally resulted in punishment.
    I actually disagree with most of you when you suggest Islam shuns and shirks questioning. No one in the community that I have encountered has discouraged my questioning, and rather it was their assistance and welcoming of my skepticism and engagement that impressed me.

    Raise your words, not voice. It is rain that grows flowers, not thunder
  • Why I am a devout Muslim.
     Reply #12 - November 01, 2015, 12:36 PM

    Welcome to the forum ElRafa. Have a rabbit!  bunny

    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Why I am a devout Muslim.
     Reply #13 - November 01, 2015, 01:33 PM

    No one in the community that I have encountered has discouraged my questioning, and rather it was their assistance and welcoming of my skepticism and engagement that impressed me.


    Would they be encouraging of the idea of asking ex Muslims to smash your arguments? Many Muslims not only avoid this place as if it were the plague, but also plead with others to do the same. Iman is a fragile thing.

  • Why I am a devout Muslim.
     Reply #14 - November 01, 2015, 02:24 PM

    Quote
    Firstly I'd request you don't whitewash all apologists, I am not them, they are not me. You don't know my level of education or experience with Muslim countries, but you assumed it was minimal. I do not appreciate such assumptions. I lived in a Muslim country for two years.


    That's because you didn't show much knowledge beyond the usual rhetoric of "Currently there is no Islamic society". Which is really garbage, because then even caliphates are not Islamic. My country tries REALLY hard to be more Islamic and Islam is in our face 24/7.

    My point, It is the politicization of Islam at the hands of more intelligent and cunning men whom use it as a means to fulfill political ambitions that has resulted in the degraded state of Islam. I like the term 'grandpa sheikhs and i'm not referring to scholars necessarily, rather those who malicious puppeteers who contradict the teachings of Islam by in-sighting inter-sectarian and societal divisions.


    How do you know that these grandpa sheikhs are using Islam to fulfill political ambitions and not actually following Islam?

    If Islam can be interpreted "maliciously", that's still Islam. Remember again, you don't really know who has the right interpretation, "malicious" or not is to be decided by you or any human, if it is written in Quran/hadith then you must follow it. Right or wrong is not decided on your opinion of "malicious" or not. If grandpa sheikh thinks that malicious interpretation is right, then he must follow it 100%.

    Quote
    I say these societies are Un-Islamic because they contradict fundamental teachings in the Qur'an and the Hadith. That is all. I believe there to be a clear disparity between my understanding of Islam but more importantly the understandings of many of the scholars that I read


    Which societies? Muslim countries are different, you can't lump them all together. My country is definitely not unIslamic, it's DEFINITELY getting more and more Islamic.

    Quote
    You are trying to ignore all the atrocities aren't you? If it fails, it's not Islam if it doesn't then it's Islam. That's not a very honest assessment.
    No I'm not. We need a stronger authority within the religion as to what Islam is and what Politics Is. There has been an unfortunate fusion between the two of late. Islam is a religion.


    Islam is BOTH politics and religion. Muhammad himself was a political leader, not just a spiritual one. You can't separate politics and spirituality in Islam.

    However, I do support secular/liberal muslims because I do think that secular country would give the best equal rights for all its citizens.
     
    Quote
    It is quite actively discouraged in Islam to go on Hajj if you lack the financial capabilities to do so. This is the scholarly consensus and has always been quite emphatic.


    They don't lack the financial capabilities, they could afford it. After 40 years of savings, they spend everything on Hajj trips for everyone. No retirements, no expanding business, no investments. That's why the Chinese in Indonesia are so rich, even though they came as poor immigrants. If a Chinese have money, they expand their business. A muslim would spend the money on Hajj. More money? Bigger business. A muslim would spend it to fund Hajj for their parents/kids. This is VERY COMMON. This happens all the time.

    Quote
    Are you seriously suggesting Hajj to be the reason that Islamic countries are dealing with such profoundly poor economic growth?


    The poor are still poor because they don't accumulate wealth, and Hajj is a big part of it.

    Quote
    In Pakistan its due to chronic poverty, overpopulation and poor distribution of wealth, in Afghanistan its due to an almost chronic history of conflict, in north africa, poor distribution of wealth and conflict.
    Very rarely is Islam the cause of poverty in society, and furthermore, in how many of these so called Islamic societies is the remedy for poverty 'the zakat' enforced.
    Never.


    Overpopulation is part of Islam's problems. Muslims still have the highest birth rate in all religious groups.

    "Zakat" is not a remedy for poverty and they already have tax in place of zakat.

    If you are poor, is there a reason for you to be rich? The quran itself claims that poor people would have easier time getting to Jannah. Why would you want to be rich? No need to be successful, it's great to be poor. Part of the problem that I see is that the poor don't really care much about being successful, they care more about being religious.

    Quote
    The problem is with their interpretation.
    They may know the texts better than me, but my assertion (well not actually mine, I borrowed it from scholars) is that the way they view this text is narrow and thus their understanding limited.


    Which scholars said that, and to whom? That's a blanket statement that means nothing.

    Quote
    This is because none pay heed to context of the revelation, and their are often ulterior motives for their chosen means of interpretation, rather than the acquisition of a profound spiritual understanding.  


    What is "profound spiritual understanding" even supposed to mean? Remember, picking the most peaceful interpretation doesn't mean that you're right. If Muhammad married many women and made a lot of good political decisions (which are written in Quran, btw) then why shouldn't other people use Islam for political gains as well? I don't think Mo was being very spiritual when he massacred Jew tribes.

    Quote
    Furthermore you have again managed to highlight one of my primary ideas about Islam, that it is used as a political tool, by men seeking power. There is warranty there if you would like to superficially extract a contextualized hadith about those who deviate from the faith in order to sanction the murder and intolerance we are seeing presently today. Our crisis is a lack of authority if anything.


    Muhammad himself used Islam to gain power, what do you expect?? Caliphate pretty much solidifies all control to muslims, non-muslims have no equal rights. The ideal Islamic state is inequal, with all the power given to muslims.

    Remember, it happens everywhere, people use anything they can to gain power. Part of the problem with the concept of ummah, is that non-muslims are screwed. It's much easier to activate us vs them tribalism hatred when you have a religion that tells you that you are better simply because you are muslim.

    Lack of authority is also Islam's fault, if it was Catholic Church, they would have no problem making a statement about something. If the pope says something, then what he says is the Catholic stance. Christianity and its 10000 denominations are all Christianity's faults. So is Islam and its ambiguity with violent verses, that's part of the religion.

    All your complaints about lack of authority, Islam being used to gain power, etc are all part of Islam. You can't cherry pick only the things you like and turn your head away when you see the ugly consequences of your religion.

    Quote
    How much do you think the Islam in the Middle East today is about personal spirituality and the unity of the ummah?and how much do you think is about politics?
    Furthermore you accuse me of lack of knowledge of the political situation in the middle east.
    What is your understanding of classical Islamic studies?


    I said before, ME muslims are like 20% of total muslims. If you want to talk about Islam, maybe let go of the Middle East, and try to tackle other muslim countries that are not war-torn? Quite a lot of selection here, India, Bangladesh, Pakistan, Malaysia, Indonesia, etc.

    Why do you have to pick ME countries? It's much closer to your ideal Islam if it's not war-torn and have functioning democracy right?

    Islam has never been only about spirituality since it also covers politics. But when it comes to unity of ummah, that's been the focus since forever. Muslims donate to zakat/sadaqah, yes it happens. No it's not remedy for poverty. Ummah pretty much only care about ummah themselves, and they sacrifice non-muslims in the process to expand their religion even more.

    Pick president that is good for ummah/muslims... don't pick nonmuslims because it's not good for ummah.

    Campaign for Palestine! Look at all the inhumane treatments... Donate zakat to them... Perfect example of ummah only caring about themselves. In Indonesia, there are still quite a many people who suffer and starve, but they are not muslim so they're not really taken care of. Palestine first, always take care of muslims first and give whatever is left to nonmuslims. Trickle down economy with muslims on top of the pyramid.

    A pure Islamic society / Caliphate would be a hell for non-muslims to live.
  • Why I am a devout Muslim.
     Reply #15 - November 01, 2015, 08:10 PM

    Helaine,
    I suggest you examine, if you already haven't, the writings and theses of Scholar and Professor Tariq Ramadan.
    You will see that I am not just making this all up, also he is more eloquent and informed than I,

    Raise your words, not voice. It is rain that grows flowers, not thunder
  • Why I am a devout Muslim.
     Reply #16 - November 01, 2015, 10:20 PM

    Welcome  parrot
  • Why I am a devout Muslim.
     Reply #17 - November 02, 2015, 12:04 AM

    bogart and absurdist thank you for your respective replies,
    i addressed the points you made about 'why Islam and not another faith'. It is a personal choice for me and i was drawn to the symbols, ideas and messages of Islam, furthermore i took offence to many of the christian doctrines, although i am well aware of their similarities.
    I Think you missed some of my points though
    I did not say Hadith were not for the modern world. i said they were not written 'in' the modern world.
    there is a considerable misunderstanding there
    I said we must pay greater heed to the principals within, rather than focusing on a Literalist interpretation. This is not 7th century Arabia, and we are looking at a revelation which took place over 23 years.
    I am not dismissing hadith such as the one on apostasy, i am urging its contextualization. I don't believe its meaning to be the murder of people to have problems with the theology of Islam.


    Which is changing Islam to fit modern standards it did not create. The same argument can be used to dismiss Islam completely as a product of the 7th century thus irrelevant in modern times

    Quote
    Likewise i wanted to demonstrate how the higher action was a principal of Islam, this is not cherry picking this is a trend, i never inferred it was unique to Islam.


    I was pointing out humans can and have created principles without requiring a God written text.


    Quote
    I agree with scholars such as Tariq Ramadan on positions of Blasphemy. It is between the blasphemer and god. Furthermore actions are clearly judged on the basis of intentions in Islam, if you are sincere and you make a mistake or if you are in a forum which encourages debate and criticism, than such discussion is welcome.
    It is the sinister and vulgar defamation of the prophet (pbuh) or allah (swt) or the deliberate in-sighting of hatred and anger that has traditionally resulted in punishment.


    The problem is your are defining what is sinister and vulgar based on your view in which you already hold a high view of both figures. You holding something in value does not mean I hold the same view nor must accommodate your values

    Quote
    I actually disagree with most of you when you suggest Islam shuns and shirks questioning. No one in the community that I have encountered has discouraged my questioning, and rather it was their assistance and welcoming of my skepticism and engagement that impressed me.


    Does Islam even entertain the possibility that Mo created everything or references external sources leaving Islam as a non-divine text?
  • Why I am a devout Muslim.
     Reply #18 - November 02, 2015, 12:34 AM

    Helaine,
    Firstly I'd request you don't whitewash all apologists, I am not them, they are not me. You don't know my level of education or experience with Muslim countries, but you assumed it was minimal. I do not appreciate such assumptions. I lived in a Muslim country for two years.


    You use them as a resource

    Quote
    Most Muslims in South and South East Asia, I am well aware of this, consider;
    I wrote what I did as a preemptive address to those who use the 'but look at the middle east'  finmad line to refute my points about justice, peace and humanitarianism in Islam. It was simplistic because it was actually not one of my major points, but since you seem passionate about the topic I will address the points you made.


    South and South East Asian do not have a clean track record anyways.

    Quote
    In The middle ages, the catholic church and religion was used as a means of maintaining the feudal system and the perpetual enslavement of the lower classes, who were compelled to do the bidding of their god for fear of eternal punishment which, interestingly enough, coincided with the bidding of the rulers of the time. The crusades are an example of how scriptural and religious can be warped easily into giving credence and support to political motivations.


    Irrelevant. The feudal system started before Christianity became the primary religion of Rome and before the collapse of either Roman Empire. The Catholic Church was the only, and I repeat only, way someone from the lower classes could become part of the upper class. The divine rule was not developed by the Catholic Church but Protestant Christianity in the 15/16th centuries. You are speak from ignorance since you have no idea what you are talking about.

    Quote
    My point, It is the politicization of Islam at the hands of more intelligent and cunning men whom use it as a means to fulfill political ambitions that has resulted in the degraded state of Islam. I like the term 'grandpa sheikhs and i'm not referring to scholars necessarily, rather those who malicious puppeteers who contradict the teachings of Islam by in-sighting inter-sectarian and societal divisions.


    Political ambitions which started by the time of Ali which is less than a century after Islam started.

    Quote
    I say these societies are Un-Islamic because they contradict fundamental teachings in the Qur'an and the Hadith. That is all. I believe there to be a clear disparity between my understanding of Islam but more importantly the understandings of many of the scholars that I read


    Hadith which you admit you contextualize. Figures could claim you are fitting Islam into modern standards thus are not holding to Islamic principles.

    Quote
    You are trying to ignore all the atrocities aren't you? If it fails, it's not Islam if it doesn't then it's Islam. That's not a very honest assessment.
    No I'm not. We need a stronger authority within the religion as to what Islam is and what Politics Is. There has been an unfortunate fusion between the two of late. Islam is a religion.


    You just used a double-standard. If a Muslim nation/empire collapses it is not Islam's fault but the west or whatever bogyman you use to cover for your ideologies failures

    Quote
    You want to know the truth? Our politics and culture are heavily stagnated by Islam. There is a lot of campaign by muslims to align everything with Islam, and to seek justification from Islam before determining the worth of something. Picking a president? Look at how well he does Salat and how he promises to make the country better for muslims. Apparently we're not picking presidents based on their capabilities now, it's just religion. Ever wonder why our politics is so shit?


    Caliph ring a bell?


    Quote
    Oh, a certain tribe have revealing ethnic clothes? Cover it up... We need hijab for everyone!
    It is not said Anywhere in the Qur'an that a woman should be forced to wear the Hijab. 


    You contradicted yourself. You stated not wearing the hijab is not proper in Islam. If something is not proper then there is a view stating reasons as to why it is proper.
     
    Quote
    Do you ever wonder why growth in Islamic countries are so slow? Because Allah is the most important thing, and people don't make judgment based on their brain, it's just based on Allah. Peasant farmers who have very little savings? Splurge all of it on Hajj trip. Don't save for retirement or expanding your business, spend it for Allah instead. Yes there are millions of people doing this. It's insane. I used to live in relatively low-income neighborhood and they all want to do Hajj. Ever wonder why they are still poor?


    Usually the god of any religion is of primary importance to the believers. This mirrors your tripe about Catholism. I wonder if you had considered that your mistaken tripe can be used for Islam when you wrote this

    Quote
    It is quite actively discouraged in Islam to go on Hajj if you lack the financial capabilities to do so. This is the scholarly consensus and has always been quite emphatic.
    Are you seriously suggesting Hajj to be the reason that Islamic countries are dealing with such profoundly poor economic growth? In Iran, i'd say its attributable to the considerable sanctions of the last two decades, and one of the most brutal wars of the modern era. In Saudi Arabia, a Wahabbi society, which is a fringe and almost fascistic Islamic movement, its due to rife corruption at the hands of the decadent oil magnates and royals, who use Islam as a tool to maintain order and subservience to the state, In Sudan its once again due to rife political instability due to ethnic tensions and war, In Pakistan its due to chronic poverty, overpopulation and poor distribution of wealth, in Afghanistan its due to an almost chronic history of conflict, in north africa, poor distribution of wealth and conflict.


    Iran and KSA both have issues with it's religious leadership. You not liking or agreeing with this leadership does not make it any less than of religious support for politics.

    Quote
    Very rarely is Islam the cause of poverty in society, and furthermore, in how many of these so called Islamic societies is the remedy for poverty 'the zakat' enforced.
    Never.


    Wrong, It is part of the law in KSA, Sudan, and Malaysia to name a few

    Quote
    You do realize that's how it is in Islamic countries as well, right? We also draw Islamic traditions from mainstream scholars modern or ancient. Where do you think we get it from? Those grandpa sheikhs that you think are in the wrong? They also have scholarship that back them up. Trust me, they know more Islam than you do.


    This group also includes one's you dismissed since you do not agree with their views. They know more about Islam than you do...

    Quote
    The problem is with their interpretation.


    According to you.

    Quote
    They may know the texts better than me, but my assertion (well not actually mine, I borrowed it from scholars) is that the way they view this text is narrow and thus their understanding limited. This is because none pay heed to context of the revelation, and their are often ulterior motives for their chosen means of interpretation, rather than the acquisition of a profound spiritual understanding.  Furthermore you have again managed to highlight one of my primary ideas about Islam, that it is used as a political tool, by men seeking power. There is warranty there if you would like to superficially extract a contextualized hadith about those who deviate from the faith in order to sanction the murder and intolerance we are seeing presently today. Our crisis is a lack of authority if anything.


    They will leave the change that you are introducing foreign ideas into Islam so it conforms to these views rather than what views Islam supports. They have scholars, you have scholars.

  • Why I am a devout Muslim.
     Reply #19 - November 02, 2015, 01:14 AM



    Quote
    Disbelievers are always associated with the evils and wrongs of the world yes, but rather I consider it inversely. I believe the disbelievers to be the people who commit cruel and preposterous acts, who reject all that is ‘beneficent and merciful’, Names of Allah (swt). I do not consider that if you have never heard of Islam or have ignored it for various reasons but still live a moral life, that you fit the category of people described in the Qur’an. I also believe this because the Qur’an was revealed at a time when the disbelievers were literally the blokes trying to kill the Muslims. This is not considered or directed to all who take theological objection to the doctrine of Islam or those whose ears it hadn’t yet reached. This is actually a notion echoed by many scholars, it’s not just part of my dream Islam.


    Do you not see the issues with the link between disbelievers and immoral acts. I have rejected Islam for a number of reasons. Am I evil? You contradicted yourself. First disbelievers are people that rejected beneficent and merciful’, Names of Allah (swt) which is theology yet you say it does not apply to people that reject theological views

    Quote
    I hope you understand what I’m trying to communicate.


    The only thing I see is that you hold contradictory views.

    Quote
    I do not consider the absurdity of atheism to be why I left it. Rather I see atheism as an understandable but misguided position.
    I think to categorically deny anything and label it as absurd, particularly when we don’t know the answer, is as arrogant and dogmatic as the extreme religious view. When has humanity ever understood anything to be created without the presence of a creator, and why is this not applicable to the universe?


    Quantum physics for one. Besides creator/created is based on induction. The primary reason one can argue that it does not apply to the universe is that no one knows it was created. You assume it was but your assumption is not a fact. You are begging the question. You said we do not have answers yet you put forward an answer in the form of Islam. You contradicted yourself again.

    Quote
    From study of every field, be it History, science, philosophy… whatever, We know that objective truth is often unascertainable, and in the case of religion vs science, it currently is.
    Rather in the cases where there is no truth, we find the truth that is most comfortable to ourselves, the subjective truth. My god speaks to me every day, and whether you see him or not is not my business. Of course I can hope to convince you of his existence, but even the Qur’an says I can’t force you, and as I wrote, this doesn’t make you a worse person.
    Consider though however that You guys don’t know why the universe was created or even how it was created… at this point, nobody does, so it’s arrogant to suggest the atheistic view to be more correct. What is right through my eyes may be nonsense to you, and vice versa.


    Thus you admit your view is subjective. You do not know either you are making an assumption based on a religious belief which is begging the question based on another assumption. The atheistic view is more plausible since theists have zero evidence for their claims. Hence I am an atheist since you propose that which you have no evidence for.

    Quote
    We can intellectually joust into eternity over whether god exists, and every point we make will have been made, answered and retorted by many atheists and believers having exactly the same debate before us. In The words of scholar Tariq Ramadan,
    “Science tells us how we came into existence. Islam shows us why we came into existence”


    Which is an assumption.

    Quote
    My ultimate goal is to make sense of the world around me, and the prescriptions of Islam seemed to really work for me. Also as I mentioned, The Qur’an didn’t seem contradictory or convoluted as Christian theology or other religions did. From my life lessons I learnt the hard way that many of the prescriptions of Islam, the primary one to be “to always take the better action”, truly made my life better.


    Except you admit you dismiss views which you disagree with which in the end shows you ignore the convoluted views within Islam. This does not mean the views do not exist









    Quote
    I’m no expert in comparative religion however my examination of Christianity exposed the blatantly fraudulent nature of its past, I’m somewhat convinced now that prior to Emperor Constantine and the council of Nicaea in 325 it was non-existent or unrecognisable when compared to contemporary Christianity. Not to mention the fact that the oldest known bible varied in something like 14,000 different places from the current ones, and omitted key doctrines found within Christianity today, namely resurrection.


    Except that these variations are accounted for. You seem to confuse differences in translations as not in agreement but this is due to how translation word in general. The Resurrection was mentioned by Paul, James, and other church fathers that predate Constantine by centuries There are many modern Bible which make a clear distinction between verses found in the oldest bibles and those that are not.

    Where did you get your 14000 number from?

    Quote
    Furthermore the idea of the trinity seemed convoluted and contradictory.


    Sure it is since it creates a God with multiple personalities.

    Quote
    This primarily comes from Christians upon whom are imprinted images of a rather muscular bearded man in the sky who lives on a cloud, as god is often depicted in renaissance and medieval art thusly. Islam makes no attempt to suggest what form the creator takes, and the idea that in Christianity, he sends himself in human form down to die for the sins of the creation he created, seemed really problematic.


    I guess imagery is lost on you. Besides only layman would think God literally has a beard.

    Yes sacrifice of Jesus (God) to himself in order to save people from a judgement made by God in the first place has issues. It is a primary reason I left Christianity. It would be like a judge appealing to himself to remove a judgement he made himself.

    Quote
    Rather I have no issue in understanding that certain people throughout history have received access to a message that transcends typical human wants, desires and ideals, inspired perhaps by this transcendent force whom fears for the existence and wellbeing of his creation but similarly desires they maintain the ability to forge their own paths. I am of course referring to the relationship between prophecy, Allah (swt) and revelation. Moreover the Qur’an didn’t deny reality, these was no assertions that the earth was created in 6 or 7 days, and there even some ideas, I reject the notion of them being miracles, that really made me ponder the world and universe and that is perceived by many scholars as the purpose of these Quranic verses, to initiate a reflection or rational questioning.


    Yet the Quran states the Heavens and Earth were joined which is no better than 6/7 days. I am sure you have your arguments just as Christians do to cover for a factual error. Which you cite below as if this view is anymore in error than the Bible's views.


    Quote
    “Have those who disbelieved not considered that the heavens and the earth were a joined entity, and We separated them and made from water every living thing? Then will they not believe?”
    Everything is a leap of faith when we don’t know the truth.


    Nope. Your view is a leap of faith based upon one book. The scientific age of the Earth is based upon the works from number of fields with empirical data.

  • Why I am a devout Muslim.
     Reply #20 - November 02, 2015, 02:09 AM

    If you studied the teachings of other faiths (sikhism, buddism, jainism, etc) and found the same teachings you mentioned in your opening post that convinced you islam is true, would that mean anything?

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Why I am a devout Muslim.
     Reply #21 - November 02, 2015, 02:26 AM

    oops that was not the edit button
  • Why I am a devout Muslim.
     Reply #22 - November 02, 2015, 04:29 AM

    Quote
    I suggest you examine, if you already haven't, the writings and theses of Scholar and Professor Tariq Ramadan.
    You will see that I am not just making this all up, also he is more eloquent and informed than I,


    I'm debating you, not Tariq Ramadan.

    And... My country's Islam is just as valid.

    You can't just point to Tariq Ramadan and then claim that everything he disagrees with are wrong kind of Islam, that's the basic of sectarianism. Every sect think they are the right and everybody else does it wrong.

    Also, my country won't just follow some random scholar you choose, we already have our own Islam that we follow very well. Unless your scholars start to debate and challenge the status quo in my country, nothing will change. My country won't bend over backwards just to accept your Islam interpretation.

    Maybe, just maybe, you need to accept that there are more than just 1 Islam. The version of Islam that you choose isn't the kind of Islam that everybody follows and they are all *still* Islam. Islam does have terrible interpretations, that's part of the religion. No amount of contextcontextcontext will ever change the fact that Mo himself was a political warlord with questionable morals.
  • Why I am a devout Muslim.
     Reply #23 - November 02, 2015, 10:06 AM


    “A prostitute was forgiven by Allah, because, passing by a panting dog near a well and seeing that the dog was about to die of thirst, she took off her shoe, and tying it with her head-cover she drew out some water for it. So, Allah forgave her because of that.” 4:538- Abu Huraira
    That is Islam ladies and gents^
    Please do not let your grievances with and observations of Muslims, affect your perceptions of Islam.
    Also feel free to take me apart or engage
    Thank you for reading and Peace be upon you all.


    Was she a prostitute by her own choice, or was she a slave or otherwise socially disadvantaged person who was forced into it?

    I know that you don't know the answer, but no one else does either, no one cared enough to write it down is my point. And Islam did manage to ban forcing slaves into working the sex trade to give the owner money, if they said they didn't want to--but didn't manage to ban the owner from raping them, which is probably just as bad. If you were a woman who was married, and couldn't own property, and your husband could decide to divorce you because you said "no" to sex one too many times and a slave couldn't say no, thereby leaving you destitute and pretty much forcing you into prostitution, the fact that your husband could rape slaves basically took away your ability to consent as well. Islam also didn't manage to ban owning slaves.

    Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for I have a sonic screwdriver, a tricorder, and a Type 2 phaser.
  • Why I am a devout Muslim.
     Reply #24 - November 02, 2015, 07:11 PM

    Yes, why would a prostitute require forgiveness from Allah?  Is not temporary marriage the same sort of scenario as prostitution, with more ceremony?

    Why would an all-knowing God have to forgive a prostitute AFTER she gave water to a dog? Did He not know her nature?

    Why would condemnation or forgiveness by Allah ta´ala be based on action, when Allah is all-knowing, able to see what has been, what will come, and the goodness of a soul?

    More importantly: How do you think prostitutes should be treated, with forgiveness, or? They do not deserve compassion for their very situation in life? They have to commit some act of kindness to get mercy from god or man? Does that mean that there is a pervasive belief in Islam that prostitutes are NOT kind people? Because watering a dog is not extraordinary...

    You do, of course, understand that if there is a prostitute in a Muslim community, that the Muslim men are allowing it.. for there is no sale without a customer. There is also no need to make money in such a way unless there is no support provided for women in the community. This is Islam?

    Surely you thought of all this before you chose your favorite example of mercy to share with us.

    And welcome. 

    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • Why I am a devout Muslim.
     Reply #25 - November 02, 2015, 11:42 PM

    Hi,

    I want to answer your question:

    Why I am a devout Muslim?

    Probably you were born a Muslim? And your parents indoctrinated you with the horrible idea that if you are not a devoted Muslim, a "all-merciful" god will punish you will endless torture.

    Maybe if you were born in another country, with Indian parents you would think that Hinduism is the right religion.  Or you were born in Mexico, thinking that Catholic Christianity is the only true religion. And you would probably write in a Ex-Christian forum "why I am a devout Christian". Or maybe you could have been born with atheist parents. Then you would probably, be on the other side of this forum  Wink

    I know there are converts. But the number is rather small. So being born and indoctrinated in one religion, makes a huge difference.
  • Why I am a devout Muslim.
     Reply #26 - November 03, 2015, 07:59 AM

    Thank you all for your time and replies
    You guys are picking apart sentences and aspects rather than my ideas as a whole.
    So far my faith and my values haven't been challenged.
    Mr El Toro sir, you clearly didn't read my self descriptions. My parents are democratic-socialist atheists for the record. 

    Furthermore my views aren't contradictory. Suggesting my Islam is the only Islam would make me no better than the extremists. Actually that would make me an extremist period.
    If you guys actually read what I was saying and considered it, rather than knit picking some of the blanket statements I made about Islam in the world, and I concede they are numerous and arguably imprudent at this point, then you would understand my primary message to be to demonstrate the breadth of tradition in Islam, and my personal response to the faith. Of course I take offense to literalists, and I believe they actually ignore some of the most important principles in Islam, which I tried to demonstrate. Nonetheless there adherence to the fundamentals put them under the vast umbrella of Islam. One of my major points was to demonstrate how vast this umbrella is to you guys, and that Islamic politics is just as complex as western politics, with rights and lefts, conservatives and liberals.
    Also Importantly I wanted to discover why most of you guys left the faith?
    I quoted the prostitute verse in refutation to literalists primarily, not you guys. It was a point I made to emphasise my thesis that it doesn't matter who you are, good action is warrants the greatest reward, and that so long as the fundamentals are adhered to, you remain within the tradition of Islam.
    What someone does is between them and god, with (and i'm gonna write this on it's own line so you don't miss it)
    Good action being the most important Islamic Principal.
    It seems you guys are keen for a debate and that's good, and im happy for you to 'take apart my views and thesis', but i'd rather you didn't go bezerk over the examples i use which is what most of you are doing.
    Nonetheless I'm keen for a discussion/debate if you guys have grievances with Islamic Ethics in particular, role of women, non muslims etc, they are my 'preferred topics, I can do a little of the intellectual scientific stuff.
    Someone also declared that the Qur'an stated the world was made in 6/7 days. This is wrong. The position is that the world/universe was made in 6 or 7 'phases'.
    Also I'm a big fan of Prophet Mohammed (Pbuh), and I'm more than prepared to have a debate centred around him

    Hope everything is clarified now.




    Raise your words, not voice. It is rain that grows flowers, not thunder
  • Why I am a devout Muslim.
     Reply #27 - November 03, 2015, 08:18 AM

    I read what you wrote which is why I asked the question I did.

    We can debate about islamic ethics and the roles of certain people in islam (women, non-muslims etc). Islam has some good ethics. It has some good teachings. It also has some questionable ones. But how relevant is this? You could wake up tomorrow and come to the conclusion islam is false and still see the value of upholding certain teachings. The more interesting question, and the more important question (I think), is whether or not islam is actually true.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Why I am a devout Muslim.
     Reply #28 - November 03, 2015, 08:47 AM

    Thank you all for your time and replies
    You guys are picking apart sentences and aspects rather than my ideas as a whole.


    So, you feel that your opinions exist as a gestalt set, and not as individual sentences? I'll try to read your whole opener, but tbh I'm a bit too derpy right now. My brain's been running amok.

    Good action being the most important Islamic Principal.


    Well, arguably the shahada is the most important Islamic principle, and the other five pillars following up. And none of those is "good action," in the sense of "do good to your fellow man," except perhaps zakat. But looking for a minute at the sociological environment in which Islam developed, it basically hit the ground running as a theocracy, without any separation of religion and state, and so the social welfare things that it did have (housing for travelers and the homeless, subsidies for orphans and small children, and other public works), good tho they were, are partially an outgrowth of the fact that Islam was the state, not under the state, and therefore needed to provide for its citizens to prevent uprisings and losing the vast land grabs it so quickly achieved.

    The rest of the five pillars relate to governing your actions with respect to God. How and where and when to worship. It's kinda like the ten commandments, in that respect, most of what God seems to be concerned about is ego stroking and not helping build a better society.

    If you're looking for a religion that has "good actions", by itself, without any "be good to God", as a guiding principle, maybe you should look into Zoroastrianism. I think I've finally worked out what it is that Angra Mainyu stands for, how it can be a non-entity and not have a will and yet be the force destroying everything, I think it's basically just a word for "entropy." So the goal of Zoroastrianism would be to fight entropy by adding to order.


    Nonetheless I'm keen for a discussion/debate if you guys have grievances with Islamic Ethics in particular, role of women, non muslims etc, they are my 'preferred topics, I can do a little of the intellectual scientific stuff.
    Someone also declared that the Qur'an stated the world was made in 6/7 days. This is wrong. The position is that the world/universe was made in 6 or 7 'phases'.



    Jakob, who records and edits my videos, has been moving, so we haven't been able to coordinate to shoot a new one in a bit; the next series I'm doing (after a very brief "glossary" series) will be about women's rights in the Abrahamic tradition, so stay tuned for that. I don't know what it's going to say yet because I don't have conscious access to that part of my brain, if I were to start on it, I'd have to write an entire 1500-2000 word essay, and that would be a pain because it's 1:30 AM and it takes about four to six hours to complete writing each essay. So stay tuned for that. In the meantime, please watch the videos I've made on the sociology of LGBT people in the Abrahamic tradition.

    (Homosexuality & Gender identity in Islam was filmed but hasn't been edited, will be added shortly; the rest all have closed captions to help with the bad audio, click the "CC" button next to the settings button.)

    https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL4z05WlvBucUX6yn5YBihotwi_esV5Dhh


    Also I'm a big fan of Prophet Mohammed (Pbuh), and I'm more than prepared to have a debate centred around him

    Hope everything is clarified now.


    What particular things that you have been told about him do you like? Are there any things you've been told about him that you have reservations about?

    Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for I have a sonic screwdriver, a tricorder, and a Type 2 phaser.
  • Why I am a devout Muslim.
     Reply #29 - November 03, 2015, 10:46 AM

    Thank you all for your time and replies
    You guys are picking apart sentences and aspects rather than my ideas as a whole.


    Yes that happens when people find fault with your premises. There is no getting to the idea as a whole when there are issues with parts of the idea.

    Quote
    Furthermore my views aren't contradictory.


    I pointed out the contradictions.

    Quote
    Suggesting my Islam is the only Islam would make me no better than the extremists. Actually that would make me an extremist period.


    Except that you reject those alternative views. You contradicted yourself again. What were you blustering about above... oh right...

    Quote
    If you guys actually read what I was saying and considered it, rather than knit picking some of the blanket statements I made about Islam in the world, and I concede they are numerous and arguably imprudent at this point, then you would understand my primary message to be to demonstrate the breadth of tradition in Islam, and my personal response to the faith. Of course I take offense to literalists, and I believe they actually ignore some of the most important principles in Islam, which I tried to demonstrate. Nonetheless there adherence to the fundamentals put them under the vast umbrella of Islam. One of my major points was to demonstrate how vast this umbrella is to you guys, and that Islamic politics is just as complex as western politics, with rights and lefts, conservatives and liberals.


    We too are demonstrating how vast Islam is. We shows that Islam has changed and evolved. This issue is you attempt to use authority to validate your views as correct while using it to dismiss other views which have their own authority figures

    Quote
    Also Importantly I wanted to discover why most of you guys left the faith?


    A lack of a philosophical argument for God in the first place. Becoming educated in archaeology in which key stories shared by all 3 Abrahamic religions rely on are mythical constructs namely Moses and the lack of any good arguments besides threats for the Quran being divine.

    Quote
    I quoted the prostitute verse in refutation to literalists primarily, not you guys. It was a point I made to emphasise my thesis that it doesn't matter who you are, good action is warrants the greatest reward, and that so long as the fundamentals are adhered to, you remain within the tradition of Islam.


    I hold values which predate Islam by centuries. You stretching your umbrella of Islam over ideas and values is a vain attempt at usurping such values in order to bolster your religion. Anyone can do this but it does nothing to convince anyone else but yourself. It is a platitude. nothing more. Beside I have issues with Islamic views such as slavery which is within the traditions of Islam. I find it immoral for any religion to support slavery in any form.

    Quote
    It seems you guys are keen for a debate and that's good, and im happy for you to 'take apart my views and thesis', but i'd rather you didn't go bezerk over the examples i use which is what most of you are doing.


    It is not going berserk. You must be facing criticism for the first time.

    Quote
    Someone also declared that the Qur'an stated the world was made in 6/7 days. This is wrong. The position is that the world/universe was made in 6 or 7 'phases'.
    Also I'm a big fan of Prophet Mohammed (Pbuh), and I'm more than prepared to have a debate centred around him


    No I said the Quran's description of the Earth's origin are just as flawed as the 6/7 day story. Neither is even close to the scientific understanding.

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