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 Topic: Blatant misogyny in Islam is what is making me question it.

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  • Blatant misogyny in Islam is what is making me question it.
     Reply #420 - November 28, 2015, 11:51 AM

    ^^ That's the thing. I know some women to who the Niqaab means a lot and would not want to see that taken from them. Oddly enough I felt totally normal after taking my hijab off, like it was something I was meant to do. It was never something I liked wearing but during most of my teen years I didn't have a choice.

    It is something you get used to in a hot environment once you have worn it for long enough though.
  • Blatant misogyny in Islam is what is making me question it.
     Reply #421 - November 28, 2015, 12:47 PM

    So, according to Surat Al-Ahzab Muhammad used prophethood to give himself special privileges to fuck any woman he wanted. Found a thread about this on Ummah.com and like the OP I am disgusted.

    O Prophet, indeed We have made lawful to you your wives to whom you have given their due compensation and those your right hand possesses from what Allah has returned to you [of captives] and the daughters of your paternal uncles and the daughters of your paternal aunts and the daughters of your maternal uncles and the daughters of your maternal aunts who emigrated with you and a believing woman if she gives herself to the Prophet [and] if the Prophet wishes to marry her, [this is] only for you, excluding the [other] believers. We certainly know what We have made obligatory upon them concerning their wives and those their right hands possess, [but this is for you] in order that there will be upon you no discomfort. And ever is Allah Forgiving and Merciful. (Qur'an 33:50)


    Oi, I found it, not you! finmad

    Going to quote the OP in case ummah hides it.

    Question about Islam (I'm very disgusted)

    Looking forward to reading the responses. popcorn


    Also, keep in mind If Mo looks at a woman and desires her then her husbnand has to divorce her and let Mo marry her. Ibn Al A’raby said, "This is what the servant of the two holy mosques has also said, as was clear to the scholars from the story of Zaid which also had this meaning."

    Check the tafsir of Imam Qurtubi RA.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Blatant misogyny in Islam is what is making me question it.
     Reply #422 - November 28, 2015, 01:14 PM

    Sorry! You posted it first on the other thread. oops

    However I did read it on UF before you posted it here, that's what I meant Wink
  • Blatant misogyny in Islam is what is making me question it.
     Reply #423 - November 28, 2015, 01:21 PM

    Prove it.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Blatant misogyny in Islam is what is making me question it.
     Reply #424 - November 28, 2015, 01:25 PM

    Quote
    I was never aware of this and the meaning of this verse. Could somebody please explain what was the point of these privileges? It makes me uncomfortable, as though prophethood was being used to gain special privileges so that Muhammad PBUH could have any woman he wanted?

    I was always told that he led a simple lifestyle and was very unworldly but this interpretation contradicts everything I have been told.


    Posted Today 09:32  dance
  • Blatant misogyny in Islam is what is making me question it.
     Reply #425 - November 28, 2015, 05:27 PM

    Many Muslims will justify Muhammad marrying so many women by saying that he married older and widowed women, so therefore he couldn't have possibly done so out of desires.

    This is a common argument... But they choose to ignore that he looked at Zaynab bint Jahsh with lust, he consummated with Aisha when she was 9, and there was a time where he had sex with Mary the slave, while the rest of the wives of Muhammad abandoned his sexual needs during the revelation of the Qur'an due to his sexual prowess.

    He spent a period without sexually fulfilling himself until Allah conveniently saved him with revelation scorning the wives.

    This requires critical thought.. Just because a woman is older, it doesn't mean that she can't enable sexual and lustful desires.

    "If you don't like your religion's fundamentalists, then maybe there's something wrong with your religion's fundamentals."
    "Demanding blind respect but not offering any respect in reciprocation is laughable."
    "Let all the people in all the worlds be in peace."
  • Blatant misogyny in Islam is what is making me question it.
     Reply #426 - November 28, 2015, 05:49 PM

    Then again, that Muslim apology is one of the flimsiest I've read in a while (although most of them rather are).

    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Blatant misogyny in Islam is what is making me question it.
     Reply #427 - November 28, 2015, 07:42 PM

    Many Muslims will justify Muhammad marrying so many women by saying that he married older and widowed women, so therefore he couldn't have possibly done so out of desires.

    This is a common argument... But they choose to ignore that he looked at Zaynab bint Jahsh with lust, he consummated with Aisha when she was 9, and there was a time where he had sex with Mary the slave, while the rest of the wives of Muhammad abandoned his sexual needs during the revelation of the Qur'an due to his sexual prowess.

    He spent a period without sexually fulfilling himself until Allah conveniently saved him with revelation scorning the wives.

    This requires critical thought.. Just because a woman is older, it doesn't mean that she can't enable sexual and lustful desires.


    But then what have they got to say about husbands being obligated to divorce their wives so that Muhammad could marry them if he desired to? I have yet to see someone justify this.
  • Blatant misogyny in Islam is what is making me question it.
     Reply #428 - November 28, 2015, 08:03 PM

    Wow, that happened??
  • Blatant misogyny in Islam is what is making me question it.
     Reply #429 - November 28, 2015, 08:10 PM

    Check QSE's link from Ummah.com.
  • Blatant misogyny in Islam is what is making me question it.
     Reply #430 - November 28, 2015, 08:14 PM

    But then what have they got to say about husbands being obligated to divorce their wives so that Muhammad could marry them if he desired to? I have yet to see someone justify this.


    The only justification they can say, and I've heard it before is "Muhammad was the final messenger of god. Therefore he can have what he wants. All of the messengers/prophets had many wives."

    The irrationality is put up on the table, and thus Allah becomes Muhammad's wingman. dance

    "If you don't like your religion's fundamentalists, then maybe there's something wrong with your religion's fundamentals."
    "Demanding blind respect but not offering any respect in reciprocation is laughable."
    "Let all the people in all the worlds be in peace."
  • Blatant misogyny in Islam is what is making me question it.
     Reply #431 - November 28, 2015, 08:16 PM

    It just teaches us that it's sunna to bend the rules a little bit when it suits you, mashaAllah.
  • Blatant misogyny in Islam is what is making me question it.
     Reply #432 - November 28, 2015, 09:22 PM

    Seeing that you wrote, "MashaAllah" it made me think of a big-bellied shaykh saying that in a lecture.

    Whenever these Islamic speakers justify things like sex with slaves and multiple wives, they say, "MashaAllah Allah made it easy for us." Then they start grinning with their big bellies and perverted mindsets.   Cheesy

    Those terms, "Alhamdulilah, MashaAllah, SubhanAllah" might seem small and miniscule but they manipulate how one thinks.

    I remember a muslim guy used to say "Subhan Allah" every other sentence whenever he really wanted to say, "Damn." Or "Damn that sucks."  Cheesy

    "If you don't like your religion's fundamentalists, then maybe there's something wrong with your religion's fundamentals."
    "Demanding blind respect but not offering any respect in reciprocation is laughable."
    "Let all the people in all the worlds be in peace."
  • Blatant misogyny in Islam is what is making me question it.
     Reply #433 - November 29, 2015, 04:11 AM

    Wow, that happened??

    If Mo looks at a woman and desires her then her husbnand has to divorce her and let Mo marry her. Ibn Al A’raby said, "This is what the servant of the two holy mosques has also said, as was clear to the scholars from the story of Zaid which also had this meaning."

    Check the tafsir of Imam Qurtubi RA.


    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Blatant misogyny in Islam is what is making me question it.
     Reply #434 - November 29, 2015, 06:21 AM

    "There's a reason only Muhammad (PBUH) was granted this: his high moral conduct."

    I read the thread and found this answer to be the most amusing from a muslim girl.

    As the discussion progresses, she says "he was morally sound enough to not abuse it."

    Sounds like she's starting to fear doubt.. And who could blame her. Muslims are taught that doubt is an innately evil thing. 

    And then everyone starts questioning Al-Qurtubi's reliability.. That's great. haha.

    Finally, they start questioning the user who posted his questions whether he's really a muslim or not and reinforce that only a "filthy minded" person would slander the prophet.

    Just replace Muhammad with The Pope and pretend they're all Christians and you will see similarities in behavior..

    "If you don't like your religion's fundamentalists, then maybe there's something wrong with your religion's fundamentals."
    "Demanding blind respect but not offering any respect in reciprocation is laughable."
    "Let all the people in all the worlds be in peace."
  • Blatant misogyny in Islam is what is making me question it.
     Reply #435 - November 29, 2015, 08:14 AM

    Seeing that you wrote, "MashaAllah" it made me think of a big-bellied shaykh saying that in a lecture.

    Whenever these Islamic speakers justify things like sex with slaves and multiple wives, they say, "MashaAllah Allah made it easy for us." Then they start grinning with their big bellies and perverted mindsets.   Cheesy

    Those terms, "Alhamdulilah, MashaAllah, SubhanAllah" might seem small and miniscule but they manipulate how one thinks.

    I remember a muslim guy used to say "Subhan Allah" every other sentence whenever he really wanted to say, "Damn." Or "Damn that sucks."  Cheesy


     Cheesy it's all too easy to imagine!
  • Blatant misogyny in Islam is what is making me question it.
     Reply #436 - November 29, 2015, 08:57 AM

    "There's a reason only Muhammad (PBUH) was granted this: his high moral conduct."
    "he was morally sound enough to not abuse it."


    Whaaaaat

    Isn't the existence of such rules alone already a proof that this is an abuse of power? I mean that's literally the definition of "power abuse". To steal somebody else's wife!

    Also this kind of apologia gets funny after a while, like why would Mo ban adoption just to marry Zainab? Because he's an example of all times, can you imagine not being able to marry your adopted son's ex-wife? Yes that's why he banned adoption, because if you love your adopted son's ex-wife you should be able to marry her.

     mysmilie_977  wacko

    Then is his marriage with Aisha also an example for all times? To make sure pedophilia survive for the rest of humanity?  Afro
  • Blatant misogyny in Islam is what is making me question it.
     Reply #437 - December 03, 2015, 02:39 PM

    In celebration of discovering feminism, Caitlin Moran, and chips with curry sauce

    Quote
    We all have a story that taught us about the disparity of opportunity between men and women, the brilliance of Caitlin Moran, and the joys of rosé straight from the bottle and chips with curry sauce.

    *atmospheric music*

    This is my story.

    I was about 17 and in an A level English class when my teacher went off on a tangent about Greek mythology. I listened to her talk excitedly about a sisterhood, and goddesses, and powerful women who led men and commanded insane levels of respect, and I was left speechless. But it wasn’t just her stories that rocked my tiny little world, it was that she didn’t finish with a guffaw, or a dismissive statement, she was full of conviction. She taught me one of my favourite lessons to date: that strong women aren’t a joke. It was the most brilliant revelation to me. I felt as though a door had been flung open in a dark, dank room. The light! The air!

    I didn’t realise it then but Mrs Gregory’s tales about female strength came at the perfect time. My parents had converted to a strict form of Islam a few years earlier and by this point every aspect of my life was being controlled – where I went, who I was friends with, what I wore. My gender became a deadweight that dictated my every move. All of sudden I was expected to follow a bewildering array of rules thought up by men terrified of their own sexuality and incapable of seeing women as anything other than walking vaginas. My new life was constructed from an epic list of commands that I had no choice over, so I spent a lot of time perfecting my evil grimmace, silently swearing at and wishing testicular calamities on men, and rolling my eyes at the utter stupidity of each new rule. Rules such as:

    1. Jeans are evil: Satan lives in your jeans. Both legs. But mostly the booty area.

    2. Your hair must be covered: it’s just too bloody sexual. It’s like your booty, except on your head. How the hell do you expect anyone to take you seriously, or respect you, or not, you know, get rapey with you, if you’ve got Satan’s nest all up in their face? COVERITUP.

    3. You were born to reproduce: no one cares if you want to explore the world and learn from your mistakes and kiss boys and feel the wind through your hair and the sun on your skin and discover writing and art and human beings who’ve absolutely nothing in common with you. Your ovaries make that little pipedream impossible, sweetcheeks. Also, COVERITUP.

    4. God isn’t meant to make sense: yeah, He’s confusing. Yeah, He’s contradictory. Yeah, His book is insanely terrifying. And YEAH it justifies heinous acts. But it’s all contextual. And relative. And you don’t need to ‘get’ it because He’s God and what We say He says goes. STOP TRYING TO ‘GET’ IT.

    There were other ridiculous rules. So. Many. Other. Rules. But as a teenager these seemed particularly frigging awful/nonsensical. My body became a battle ground and my moral compass was reset – chastity, humility, purity and submission (all male-defined, natch), were the only measures of goodness. I was told that women should never be leaders (they’re too emotional), that marital rape and domestic violence are grey areas, that the education system is a dangerous place encouraging destructive freedoms, that women should walk behind their husbands, that unmarried women shouldn’t leave the house unaccompanied, that my body and my sexuality made life dangerous for me, and that gender equality was a fallacy invented by the West. It was, quite frankly, a bonkers time. I spent many an evening hatching my escape route and fantasising that I was in the middle of a Truemanesque practical joke. Cue conversations with God that went like this:

    “Dear God, if you exist, I TOTALLY get it; it was all a test. Good one! You had me for a minute/years! But in case you hadn’t noticed, I’ve passed with flying colours! You plopped me into this insanely illogical existence where my vagina dictates my every move but, despite that, I haven’t committed GBH. So, where’s my gold star? Can I start living for real now?”

    A few years later, I went to uni, fell in love, was disowned, and began a long process of forging an identity from scratch. There were moments of joy, but mostly it was a relentless slog with some truly hideous forks in the road. God works in mysterious ways and all that jazz *cynical snort* Aaaanyway, I’ve moved on. I no longer apologise for my body, or my thoughts, or my voice, I no longer radiate shame, I know I’m as good and as capable as any man, I don’t stand for misogyny or sexism, and to top it all, I bloody LOVE being a woman. And that’s been made possible for a variety of reasons, not least because I discovered the deep, deep joy that is being a feminist.

    My feminism started out as a slow burner. Every so often the universe whispered to me “it doesn’t have to be like this Steph, resist the bollocks” and it gifted me with moments that chipped away at my passivity. Moments like listening to Mrs Gregory’s stories, seeing my mum cry with laughter at gutsy, anti-establishment comediennes on 80s TV, looking at my younger sisters and knowing they deserved more, feeling the disappointment as the men I loved screwed up monumentally, time and time again, and knowing the women I loved would fix it back up as best they could. I was taught painstaking lessons in female fragility and male dominance, and while I sat quietly taking in all the hate, the women in my life danced furiously and silently across my horizon, carrying the weight of our world, like pissed off ballet dancers. These moments were snapshots of technicolor breaking up the black and white static. Clarity amidst the blur. I took them all in, until something snapped, and a little, shakey voice inside my head said “sod this for a game of badgers”. Because it dawned on me that our expectations (social, cultural and religious) of women are nothing but a construct, and they suck the frigging joy out of life. I wanted out. And so, another feminist killjoy was born.

    Until I hit 30 I could only say the word feminism using my inside voice; a teeny-tiny apologetic whisper. Because society is still pretty hideous to women who talk loudly about sexism and inequality. But now, at 34, feminism is one of my favourite words. My understanding, appreciation and involvement in the world is massively enhanced by feminism and I’m so thankful to the people who made it accessible to me, whether that be teachers, writers, family, or friends. Last month I had the most incredible night celebrating one of those people, a feminist I love to bits, Caitlin Moran. The night was made even more fantastic by discovering chips with curry sauce (holy crap they were good), and drinking stupid amounts of rosé (al fresco…straight from the bottle *ahem*) with two strong, empowering women who I’m lucky to call friends. At 34 I’m over my nights out feeling like a weird anthropological experiment on human mating rituals, so to spend an evening feeling so empowered, safe, and full of joy (and wine) was a revelation. Caitlin read from her newest book, How to Build a Girl, and told stories about her life. There were so many good bits it’d be impossible to tell you about them all, but here are a few things she said that stuck out for me.

    1. We have barmy issues with blood. The message is clear: there are two types of blood in the world. The good stuff is manly *grrrrrr* and we’re super happy to watch it spurt out of decapitated characters on Game of Thrones, or any TV character post-watershed. The bad blood is the *whispers* icky woman ‘stuff’ that we’d rather not mention by name. But, small detail: menstrual blood is our lifeblood and the reason each of us exists. So why is it that watching a gore packed action movie with the family is a social norm, whereas an artist showing the teeniest patch of menstrual blood on Instagram is met with the equivalent of a worldwide dry retch? Why are women shamed into self-loathing over their periods? Why are we taught from puberty to see them as a dirty secret? We pretend that they aren’t a massive pain, that they aren’t messy, or debilitating. And don’t even get me started on the truly disgusting price of feminine hygiene products that makes dealing with periods so difficult for the growing number of women living in poverty in this country* If I had the time I’d blog about how the Judeo-Christian and Islamic traditions have a lot to answer for when it comes to menstrual shame. Alas, I’ll have to save that gem for another day.

    2. It wasn’t until I hit 30 that I properly found what Caitlin Moran, and many others, refer to as the ‘feminist goggles’. I’m 34 now and I feel like they’re surgically attached to my face. Realising that whole chunks of your life; experiences, opportunities, and relationships, have been destroyed or made shit just because you have a vagina, is like a floodgate, there’s no going back. I don’t process many things without thinking about gender inequality. And, like Moran, my feminist goggles often make me feel like  shrieking “my eyes, MY EYES, they burn!”.

    3. Which leads me onto: it’s good to get angry. Unfortunately women are taught not to get angry at every stage of their lives, because its unfeminine and it threatens the patriarchy. I still get anxious about being angry in my blogs, that’s despite the fact that I’m 34 and they’re my spaces. It’s not really the ‘done’ thing to blog with rage, especially as a mumblogger – the saccharine is lauded, while angry truths are sidestepped. I’d like to see more loud, empowered women in the mumblogging community, the kind of women who don’t shy away from getting angry about injustice. In its best form anger is motivational, empowering, and a force for change.

    4. Feminism is simple. At it’s most fundamental level feminism is such a no brainer I think it’s a crime not to honour it. It goes like this:




    Quote
    5. Standing on a chair and yelling “I AM A FEMINIST” with over a thousand other people (men included) feels incredible. You should try it.

    I can’t end without mentioning the feminist smile. I won’t say anything apart from the fact that it’s the most glorious middle finger to fat shaming and the objectification of the female body. It made me laugh and cry. Just watch this.

    I LOVE YOU Caitlin!


    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Blatant misogyny in Islam is what is making me question it.
     Reply #438 - December 03, 2015, 04:39 PM

    That poor woman, I can't imagine what it must be like to have been suddenly subject to all of those insane rules as a teen. At least when you're brought up with them it's all you know so they appear to be less repressive.

    Great post, will have a look at the rest of her blog once I have the time.
  • Blatant misogyny in Islam is what is making me question it.
     Reply #439 - December 03, 2015, 08:09 PM

    I really hope lesbianism goes on the rise in all Islamic countries, I also hope more guys become gay. Just to piss them off.

     parrot


    "If you don't like your religion's fundamentalists, then maybe there's something wrong with your religion's fundamentals."
    "Demanding blind respect but not offering any respect in reciprocation is laughable."
    "Let all the people in all the worlds be in peace."
  • Blatant misogyny in Islam is what is making me question it.
     Reply #440 - December 03, 2015, 08:15 PM

    You said you were thinking about visiting Saudi? You will see plenty of it there.
  • Blatant misogyny in Islam is what is making me question it.
     Reply #441 - December 03, 2015, 09:07 PM

    Such a relief to see this. They're still practicing religion, but at least they got some happiness.. If I were to recite the Qur'an again, I'd do it in a heavy metal format and make songs out of all the surahs.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6pvUEM1SCho

    "If you don't like your religion's fundamentalists, then maybe there's something wrong with your religion's fundamentals."
    "Demanding blind respect but not offering any respect in reciprocation is laughable."
    "Let all the people in all the worlds be in peace."
  • Blatant misogyny in Islam is what is making me question it.
     Reply #442 - December 03, 2015, 09:22 PM

    I do wonder how that would sound Tongue

    Was never really a heavy metal fan but these Middle Eastern metal bands are intruiging.
  • Blatant misogyny in Islam is what is making me question it.
     Reply #443 - December 03, 2015, 11:57 PM

    I'd do it in a heavy metal format.


    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=17335.0

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Blatant misogyny in Islam is what is making me question it.
     Reply #444 - December 04, 2015, 01:58 AM

    I would use that voice from "Nuke Mecca" and recite the surahs

    "Alhamdulilah hir-rabil Alaaaaaaaaammmmmeeen! Ar-Rahman nirra mo**er-f**king HEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEM!"

    I'd be screeching with my voice.

    "If you don't like your religion's fundamentalists, then maybe there's something wrong with your religion's fundamentals."
    "Demanding blind respect but not offering any respect in reciprocation is laughable."
    "Let all the people in all the worlds be in peace."
  • Blatant misogyny in Islam is what is making me question it.
     Reply #445 - December 04, 2015, 02:18 AM

    I would use that voice from "Nuke Mecca" and recite the surahs

    "Alhamdulilah hir-rabil Alaaaaaaaaammmmmeeen! Ar-Rahman nirra mo**er-f**king HEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEM!"

    I'd be screeching with my voice.

    No..No...Nooooooo..

    replace that "Nuke Mecca" with   "PUKE ON MECCAN KINGS THE SAUDS"

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Blatant misogyny in Islam is what is making me question it.
     Reply #446 - December 04, 2015, 02:21 AM

    I really hope lesbianism goes on the rise in all Islamic countries, I also hope more guys become gay. Just to piss them off.

     parrot

    You said you were thinking about visiting Saudi? You will see plenty of it there.


    Wait really?
  • Blatant misogyny in Islam is what is making me question it.
     Reply #447 - December 04, 2015, 03:09 AM

    Homosexuality is common in gender segregated societies. In some Muslim countries there was traditionally a third gender.

    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • Blatant misogyny in Islam is what is making me question it.
     Reply #448 - December 04, 2015, 03:22 AM

    I've had my encounter with it in a very soft-core manner. It was awkward not because I'm homophobic, but because I'm straight.

    We used to have sleep-overs with just the brothers at the masjid.. All the time. None of us had interaction with females for months. One brother played with my beard and twirled it in a slow sexual manner and looked at me strangely.

    It happens.

    American Muslim women who wore full jilbab told me they had their flings with other covered muslim females. I'd ask them if they're lesbian, but they say "No I just followed my heart, but doesn't mean I'm a lesbian." Sort of like a bisexual that will never act on it again once they're married..

    "If you don't like your religion's fundamentalists, then maybe there's something wrong with your religion's fundamentals."
    "Demanding blind respect but not offering any respect in reciprocation is laughable."
    "Let all the people in all the worlds be in peace."
  • Blatant misogyny in Islam is what is making me question it.
     Reply #449 - December 04, 2015, 06:40 AM

    Homosexuality is common in gender segregated societies. In some Muslim countries there was traditionally a third gender.


    I'm aware of the third gender but it's culture not Islam right? Third gender is not really approved in Islamic context...

    I mean, I agree that they can deny homosexuality all they want, but it will always exist despite of Islam  Cheesy Cheesy
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