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Theme Changer

 Topic: Homosexual & Transgender Issues In Religion--Comprehensive History

 (Read 11836 times)
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  • Homosexual & Transgender Issues In Religion--Comprehensive History
     OP - July 21, 2015, 05:52 AM

    So my mouth wrote a check my brain is going to have some trouble cashing...during the audio recording for the video about the history of hell, I told my friend (Jakob, who has been incredibly kind in agreeing to do the interviews) that I'd probably do more, and then my mouth decided to promise the next one would be on homosexuality. Soooooooo, now I'm going to have to do that. Basically I'm just going to be covering the history of how homosexuality and transgender issues (probably also intersex, since that appears in the same passages a lot) have been viewed in the Abrahamic faiths, and how those views have changed over time; I might mention some of the other religions, but it would probably mostly be for comparison.

    General outlining of ideas:

    Before the advent of the religion we know today as Judaism (which occurred much later than the Jewish texts claim), the Israelite religion was at best monotheist only in that its proponents advocated their tribes only worship one god of the Canaanite pantheon, and the people did not deny the existence of other gods, they simply did not worship them. The books attributed to Moses, with their harsh treatment of the people and gods of the Canaanites, came much later in the history of the ancient Israelite people. The texts that describe this pre-Judaism era don't seem to make a big deal out of homosexual activities. They talk about male temple prostitutes, as well as female temple prostitutes; and there seem to have been at least female temple prostitutes hanging out around the temporary housing of the Ark of the Covenant or whatever actual shrine there may have been to the god who became the monotheistic, Abrahamic god in the semi-permanent encampment where it was housed in Shiloh, The Shiloh shrine was not unique, and there were many others in addition to it all over the land that people who the texts describe as worshiping or consulting the eventual Abrahamic god. Some of these other shrines are fertility based and include phallic images and poles.

    The texts of the Torah were compiled sometime around the era of Cyrus the Great. The formerly independent kingdoms of Israel and Judah had both been subjugated for quite a while by the time of Cyrus; but Cyrus offered something new--a level of self-rule to ancient religions. So the compilation of what are now the core Jewish texts either amazingly coincided with or was in direct response to the edict of Cyrus allowing self-governance for those who practiced ancient religions. The immense roll of Cyrus is reflected in the literature; in Isaiah, he is described as being the Lord's anointed, which is the word that we know as messiah. The de facto religion of the empire of Cyrus was Zoroastrianism; and Zoroastrianism's texts' view on homosexuality:

    Quote
    the man that lies with mankind as man lies with womankind, or as woman lies with mankind, is a man that is a Daeva [demon]; this man is a worshipper of the Daevas, a male paramour of the Daevas


    pretty clearly had an effect on the Torah writers:

    Quote
    Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind; it is abomination (Lev. 18:22)


    And:

    Quote
    And if a man lie with mankind, as with womankind, both of them have committed abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them. (Lev. 20:13)


    The writers of the Torah also included prohibitions on letting your son or daughter be a shrine prostitute, in Deuteronomy 23:17.

    No important canonical written texts came out of the period following this, for the next few centuries. The next texts to be written in the Abrahamic tradition (the Talmud and the Christian texts as they were canonized later) were vastly in opposition to each other on a lot of issues.


    I'm going to post this and then come back and do more on the topic of the later texts in a bit. Or maybe another day lol.

    Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for I have a sonic screwdriver, a tricorder, and a Type 2 phaser.
  • Homosexual & Transgender Issues In Religion--Comprehensive History
     Reply #1 - July 21, 2015, 11:54 AM

    So my mouth wrote a check my brain is going to have some trouble cashing...
    ..................Soooooooo, now I'm going to have to do that....................
    ..............................Or maybe another day lol....................

    Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind; it is abomination (Lev. 18:22)
    Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind; it is abomination (Lev. 18:22)

    My goodness gracious .. Hello  galfromusa..... I need to read your post again because I am reading  Leviticus  in it......Leviticus ......Leviticus  .....LOVITICUS  .....  I love it when someone hits the shit out of gibberish from so-called books/sayings of god/allah/whatever from ancient people of that times. Let me read some more LOVEEEEITICUSSS....

    Quote
    Leviticus 18 (1-5):   The Lord said to Moses,   “Speak to the Israelites and say to them: ‘I am the Lord your God.  You must not do as they do in Egypt, where you used to live, and you must not do as they do in the land of Canaan, where I am bringing you. Do not follow their practices.  You must obey my laws and be careful to follow my decrees. I am the Lord your God.   Keep my decrees and laws, for the person who obeys them will live by them. I am the Lord.

    Leviticus 18-6 : ‘No one is to approach any close relative to have sexual relations. I am the Lord.
     
    Leviticus 18-7 : “‘Do not dishonor your father by having sexual relations with your mother. She is your mother; do not have relations with her.

    Leviticus 18-8 : “‘Do not have sexual relations with your father’s wife; that would dishonor your father.

    Leviticus 18-9 : “‘Do not have sexual relations with your sister, either your father’s daughter or your mother’s daughter, whether she was born in the same home or elsewhere.

    Leviticus 18-10 : “‘Do not have sexual relations with your son’s daughter or your daughter’s daughter; that would dishonor you.

    Leviticus 18-11 “‘Do not have sexual relations with the daughter of your father’s wife, born to your father; she is your sister.

    Leviticus 18-12 “‘Do not have sexual relations with your father’s sister; she is your father’s close relative.

    Leviticus 18-13 “‘Do not have sexual relations with your mother’s sister, because she is your mother’s close relative.

    Leviticus 18-14 “‘Do not dishonor your father’s brother by approaching his wife to have sexual relations; she is your aunt.

    Leviticus 18-15 “‘Do not have sexual relations with your daughter-in-law. She is your son’s wife; do not have relations with her.

    Leviticus 18-16 “‘Do not have sexual relations with your brother’s wife; that would dishonor your brother.

    Leviticus 18-17 “‘Do not have sexual relations with both a woman and her daughter. Do not have sexual relations with either her son’s daughter or her daughter’s daughter; they are her close relatives. That is wickedness.

    Leviticus 18-18 “‘Do not take your wife’s sister as a rival wife and have sexual relations with her while your wife is living.

    Leviticus 18-19 “‘Do not approach a woman to have sexual relations during the uncleanness of her monthly period.

    Leviticus 18-20 “‘Do not have sexual relations with your neighbor’s wife and defile yourself with her.

    Leviticus 18-21 “‘Do not give any of your children to be sacrificed to Molek, for you must not profane the name of your God. I am the Lord.

    Leviticus 18-22 “‘Do not have sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman; that is detestable.

    Leviticus 18-23 “‘Do not have sexual relations with an animal and defile yourself with it. A woman must not present herself to an animal to have sexual relations with it; that is a perversion.

    Leviticus 18: 24-28 :  “‘Do not defile yourselves in any of these ways, because this is how the nations that I am going to drive out before you became defiled.   Even the land was defiled; so I punished it for its sin, and the land vomited out its inhabitants.   But you must keep my decrees and my laws. The native-born and the foreigners residing among you must not do any of these detestable things,   for all these things were done by the people who lived in the land before you, and the land became defiled.   And if you defile the land, it will vomit you out as it vomited out the nations that were before you.

    Leviticus 18-29 :  “‘Everyone who does any of these detestable things—such persons must be cut off from their people. 30 Keep my requirements and do not follow any of the detestable customs that were practiced before you came and do not defile yourselves with them. I am the Lord your God.’


    Well that is what is there in the wisdom book/s of  "LORD OF YOUR GOD" . interesting words.. "I AM THE LORD OF YOUR GOD"  not  god of your god..

    I have not read every word of that but there is some good, some sort of  moral guidance to the society ....... there could be some nonsense in those words  of "LORD OF YOUR GOD".....   I can not blame those people who wrote such stuff.  neither I can    blame folks who may have done some good or may have  said some good  words., and  some  people of that time   may have named them as Prophets.   I ALSO WILL NOT GIVE CREDIT to the writers of those books  for the good stuff in those Lords words or god's words..whatever....


    My problem is NOT with those books or with those people of that time., but  IDIOTS LIVING in 21st century and preaching words from such books as word of god or words god's god..   or lord of the god.  whatever.

     All these fools who preach from these  god book    or  allah book   or pagan gods books  must realize ....."MUST REALIZE" .....  that they are NOT words of any god or voodoo dolls  . But they were words of people of that time and you read some good some  some wisdom of their times  and some stupid stuff... .

    As  dr. Dawkins  points out  repeatedly on this morality and moral guidance from these  books ................. well let me put his video here...........

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VgHoyTvyh4o

    That is what is.,  ONLY EDUCATED FOOLS WHO PREACH RELIGIOUS GIBBERISH AS WORD OF ALLAH/GOD DO NOT REALIZE THAT SIMPLE LOGIC.  

    Well at the end of that rant,   I lost the connection with the post of that Musa Girl..  Ooopps sorry I mean "girlfrousa"... Vote For "girlfrousa" ...... Vote For "girlfrousa"...... Vote For "girlfrousa".  Again Hellooo  "girlfrousa".. elections.. elections... getting elected changing the rules of the game.. that is very important

    with best wishes
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Homosexual & Transgender Issues In Religion--Comprehensive History
     Reply #2 - July 21, 2015, 09:18 PM

    You know what's not included on the list of people you can't sleep with? Your daughter. It has your daughter by your wife on the list, but not your daughter of someone who isn't your wife, or your daughter full stop. This was a time when sex slaves and concubines were common, so forgetting to add them to the list is quite a large oversight, unless it wasn't an oversight.  whistling2

    Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for I have a sonic screwdriver, a tricorder, and a Type 2 phaser.
  • Homosexual & Transgender Issues In Religion--Comprehensive History
     Reply #3 - July 22, 2015, 02:24 AM

    That's just huge. I never picked up on that. Good point!

    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • Homosexual & Transgender Issues In Religion--Comprehensive History
     Reply #4 - July 22, 2015, 07:36 AM

    Now to do more writing!

    One brief note, on the topic of the stories of Genesis 19:4-8 (Sodom and Gomorrah) and Judges 19:22-24 (the Levite's concubine), both of these stories are brought out by modern Christians as examples of God's moral code. That's an interesting claim because the former has God deciding that raping guys is horrible, but raping women is totally ok, and he views Lot, who offered his virgin daughters to the rape mob, the only person just enough to be saved from the destruction; and Lot later impregnates both of his daughters. The second has the same set-up, guy goes to a town, people surround the door and demand to rape him, host gives them a woman--in this case, the Levite visitor's concubine, they rape her to death, and the dude chops her body up and sends it to all the tribes and they come and kill the people of the town and the town's tribe.

    Actually, in terms of evolution of the story, it would make a lot more sense if the Judges story was the original and the Genesis story was the updated version, with the Genesis story seeing God become personally responsible for doing the judging instead of people; this would fit the pattern of God getting bigger and stronger and more powerful that seems to occur within that time period. Also it would explain the shift of focus from the story being about the rape-related death of a woman (albeit a concubine who had cheated and run away) to the evilness of homosexual sex acts. In any case, using either story as evidence for God's moral code is more than a little questionable.

    The apocryphal writings did not make it in to the canon, but some of their ideas--and more importantly, what people understood of ancient religious practice through the way those ideas were conveyed--were still important in shaping the later versions of Judaism and Christianity. That being said, the texts do not themselves seem to speak much of homosexuality or homosexual intercourse, although this was certainly a thing that was known to them because they were being ruled by the Greeks for a good part of that time. 1 Macabees, for example, does discuss the gymnasiums--the places where Greek men would gather to discuss philosophy and business and exercise and such in the nude--and people undergoing foreskin lengthening to cover up their being circumcised; but it does not discuss homosexual relationships or sex, both of which we know were quite common in the Greek civilization. [Sidenote: In reading 1 Macabees for research I came across this: 1 Mac. 2:46 "And what children soever they found within the coast of Israel uncircumcised, those they circumcised valiantly." -- Just how does one perform a circumcision "valiantly", exactly?].

    The first century CE was a time of huge upheaval for Judaism, with the destruction of the Second Temple in 70 AD by the Romans. This led to a crisis of faith for many, the primary issue being that the religion was focused on the rituals associated with the Temple--with ritual purity, sacrifice, and organized, structured worship being key themes of the religion. Without these, the religion was threatened with erasure from history. In a strange way the fight with Christianity gave Judaism something to rally around, something to disagree with and set itself up in opposition to, and this was important in the formation of the texts of both religions. I'm working on another piece about how the book of Matthew, often thought of as being written to the Jews (because its first two chapters contain the phrase "that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet...." so many times; but each time is mistranslated or fabricated) is actually written to drive them away because it views the message of Jesus as a secret that no one, including its readers, should be able to pick up on by reading it at face value, so that's a topic for another day.

    The post-temple Jewish text that is the most important theologically is the Talmud. Rambam's Mishne Torah and the Shulchan Aruch, from which most modern observant Jews draw their daily routines (usually one or the other, but not both, based on their heritage), is based on their respective authors' understanding of the Talmud, which is a quite confusing set of books that you can't just open up and read without some training on how to treat each layer of text, and prior to the invention of the printing press, would likely have been nearly impossible to own a personal copy of. These days more people are spending a great deal of time studying the Talmud; but their daily practices still come mainly from either the Mishne Torah or the Shulchan Aruch. Rambam's list of prohibitions does include homosexuality; but the Shulchan Aruch's doesn't--instead, it says that one should abstain from being in a confined space another man, because of the lewdness rampant in society, so for the author it was apparently more about society viewing two men being together in a confined space as proof that they were gay and subsequently giving them something about which to say that the Jews were immoral, or at least, had no right to criticize their morality. Rambam, however, followed the belief of the Talmudic sages that Jews "are not suspect to practice homosexuality"; that is, as a Jew, if you see two other Jewish men leave a bedroom or something, your assumption should not be that they are gay, unless you have proof to that effect that isn't circumstantial.

    The view of homosexuality of the Jewish sages seems to have been based largely on the predominantly Roman culture in which the Talmudic sages lived. For example the sages say that homosexuality "debases the dignity of man", a very Roman idea, wherein one was either "active", dominant, and masculine or "passive", submissive, and feminine. In this view, the man being the subject of the homosexual activity was being subjugated. Within Jewish mysticism, this idea continued to evolve, and by the 13th century, this extended not only to homosexual sex, but to the proper way of handling heterosexual sex. The story of Lilith as penned by Rabbi Isaac ben Jacob ha-Cohen says that the reason Lilith fled the Garden of Eden and became the serpent in the garden and the mother of demons was that she did not want to allow Adam to dominate her sexually; she wanted to assume a position on top of him instead of underneath him, and Eve, and by extension, all other human women who aren't spawning or spawn of demons, were created to redress this problem.

    A second problem the Jewish sages had with homosexual sex was that it was a spilling of seed in vain. The theory behind this is basically that seminal emissions are a limited resource related to strength and vitality, and that releasing them weakens you; the spilling of seed in Genesis by Onan, from which the phrase comes, does not have exactly this connotation--he did not want to have a child by Tamar because it would not be legally his and would take away from the amount of the inheritance that he would get and that he could give to his own legal heirs. It wasn't about the waste of his vitality as much as it was about financial interests; this also appears in the story of Ruth, where an unnamed relative lists this as the exact reason he will not marry Ruth.

    The third issue that the sages had was that engages in homosexual acts might lead you to desert your wife so you can have more gay sex. This kind of sounds like a modern objection, that gay marriage will ruin the sanctity of marriage. This objection doesn't actually make a lot of sense from the standpoint of people's attractions; if people are attracted only to members of the same sex, then having a straight marriage won't reverse that. Forcing them into a straight marriage will only make them miserable, so the answer to this problem is to simply not force them to get married in the first place.

    -----------------------------------------------

    Well, looking at all that, I can say that it's already getting far too long for a single video and I don't think that it's all going to fit in one video with transgender, intersex, and other gender identity issues like I'd hoped. I figured that since they usually occur pretty close to each other in the texts I could lump them together, doesn't look like that'll work. Bah. But I'm finished with homosexuality in Jewish law, for the most part; I should be able to start on Christianity in the next little spurt of brainpower.

    Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for I have a sonic screwdriver, a tricorder, and a Type 2 phaser.
  • Homosexual & Transgender Issues In Religion--Comprehensive History
     Reply #5 - July 22, 2015, 10:12 AM

    Oh, and in terms of lesbianism in Jewish texts: there isn't much to say. The scriptures don't talk about it, and no penalty is prescribed for it; the Talmud suggests that it is an "abhorrent act" of the Egyptians but I have no idea where they got that from. They may have been using "Egyptians" as a stand-in for "Romans", which was very common, basically anytime they hated their rulers they'd use "Egyptians" as the way to talk about them behind their backs. It discusses whether scissoring is a crime and makes a woman "not a virgin" for legal purposes, and they decide it's a minor infraction and the woman retains her virginity. Rambam said that maybe you should flog women caught doing it, and also, don't let your wife spend time alone with one who has been caught doing it. That's really all there is to say, nothing else shows up in the Jewish texts until modern times.

    Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for I have a sonic screwdriver, a tricorder, and a Type 2 phaser.
  • Homosexual & Transgender Issues In Religion--Comprehensive History
     Reply #6 - August 24, 2015, 09:46 AM

    A video has now been made of this material!! So if you enjoy listening to me talk instead of reading what I write, for some reason, you can now listen away to your heart's content!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8woS2YdyT8g

    Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for I have a sonic screwdriver, a tricorder, and a Type 2 phaser.
  • Homosexual & Transgender Issues In Religion--Comprehensive History
     Reply #7 - August 24, 2015, 10:26 AM

    I occasionally slip up when talking to my trans friend and say he and him instead of her and she. It's really weird trying to think of this kid I've known since he was 14 being a girl now. I wonder if they'll be a time I really do naturally think "her" and not "him" instead of having to remind myself of preferred word usage.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Homosexual & Transgender Issues In Religion--Comprehensive History
     Reply #8 - August 24, 2015, 10:28 AM

    One of my friends has just started to transition, Quod. I'm trying to be supportive....but sometimes she's really friggin stupid, which is an issue entirely independent of her gender identity.

    Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for I have a sonic screwdriver, a tricorder, and a Type 2 phaser.
  • Homosexual & Transgender Issues In Religion--Comprehensive History
     Reply #9 - August 24, 2015, 10:30 AM

    My mate isn't exactly the brightest bulb in the shop. Grin

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Homosexual & Transgender Issues In Religion--Comprehensive History
     Reply #10 - August 25, 2015, 08:59 AM

    Commencing part 2, homosexuality in Christianity! Some stuff may be repeated from the last large chunk of text especially if it didn't make it into the video (which was probably due to the recording equipment being buggy yesterday). I originally wanted to talk about gender identity at the same time, but it's much much too big a topic, so instead, have this video to tide you over until I can get around to that topic:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4eURhm7Q0Kw

    ------------------------------

    So last time, as we discussed, the authors of the Jewish scriptures had very divergent views on Christianity, and this is further obscured by the writings of the post-Temple authors. In the period between the writing of the texts and the destruction of the Temple, the time Christians refer to as the intertestamental period (from around 500 BC to 70 AD), there were several books written but none of them made it into the canon.

    The apocryphal writings may not have made it in to the canon, but some of their ideas--and more importantly, what people understood of ancient religious practice through the way those ideas were conveyed--were still important in shaping the later versions of Judaism and Christianity. That being said, the texts do not themselves seem to speak much of homosexuality or homosexual intercourse, although this was certainly a thing that was known to them because they were being ruled by the Greeks for a good part of that time. 1 Macabees, for example, does discuss the gymnasiums--which we know from all sorts of sources were the places where Greek men would gather in the nude to discuss philosophy and business and exercise and solicit sex--and the text discusses people undergoing foreskin lengthening to cover up their being circumcised; but it does not discuss homosexual relationships or homosexual sex, both of which we know were quite common in the Greek civilization. Why the authors did not mention homosexual relationships or homosexual intercourse is a mystery. Maybe they thought that it wasn't a big deal, like perhaps they did not view it as a sin, or perhaps they didn't view it as a big deal compared to the rest of what the Greek rulers were doing to erode their religion; or perhaps they viewed it as common knowledge both that it was a sin and that the Greeks did it, and therefore considered  it unimportant to discuss. Whatever the reason, they did not mention homosexuality.

    What they did mention was interruptions to their religious practices, like interruptions to sacrifices in the Temple, the outlawing and social stigmatization of circumcision of Jewish boys, and putting pagan idols and sacrifices in Jewish sacred spaces. They also mention frequent slaughters of Jews and oppressive taxes. When sexual debauchery is mentioned, it is heterosexual in nature:

    Quote
    2 Maccabees 6:4
     
    For the temple was filled with debauchery and reveling by the Gentiles, who dallied with harlots and had intercourse with women within the sacred precincts, and besides brought in things for sacrifice that were unfit.


    [Sidenote: In reading 1 Macabees for research I came across this: 1 Mac. 2:46 "And what children soever they found within the coast of Israel uncircumcised, those they circumcised valiantly." -- Just how does one perform a circumcision "valiantly", exactly? Is that done, like, with a sword?].

    Later authors, up to our present times, considered the blanket condemnation of the Greek civilization and the struggle against it by the Macabees a moral struggle against homosexuality, but the texts written during that time do not mention it at all. Googling "Hanukkah gay agenda" will return multiple results of rabbis and Christian preachers discussing the victory of the Macabees against the Greeks, and the subsequent creation of the holiday of Hannukah to commemorate the Macabees, a symbol of the fight against the "homosexual agenda." This makes it very interesting that the texts do not themselves mention homosexuality or homosexual intercourse as a reason why the authors of 1-4 Macabees were angry at the Greeks.

    After the destruction of the second temple, the Jewish people had a crisis of faith. This was largely due to the realization that they could no longer conduct the rituals that had been the majority of what the religion was about until that time. Sacrifices in particular were a huge part of the religion, not only because of their relationship with atonement for sin but because they were an integral part of the celebration of festivals and other life events. In Avot D'Rabbi Natan, a midrashic work, it relates the following story:

    Quote
    Once, Rabbi Yohanan ben Zakkai was walking with his disciple, Rabbi Y'hoshua, near Jerusalem after the destruction of the Temple. Rabbi Y'hoshua looked at the Temple ruins and said "Alas for us!! The place that atoned for the sins of the people of Israel lies in ruins!" Then Rabbi Yohannan ben Zakkai spoke to him these words of comfort: 'Be not grieved, my son. There is another equally meritorious way of gaining ritual atonement, even though the Temple is destroyed. We can still gain ritual atonement through deeds of loving-kindness. For it is written "Loving kindness I desire, not sacrifice." (Hosea 6:6)


    This story is a minor indicator of the crisis of faith that occurred at the time, and how it was resolved by the Jewish authors. The way that it was resolved by the authors whose works would become the Christian texts varied enormously. The author of the gospel of Mark, written very soon after the destruction of the Temple, believed that the way that this crisis would be resolved would be through the return and dramatic revelation of the Messiah who would destroy the Romans and instigate a new era, and the book reflects this belief that this was going to happen immediately with verses such as Mark 9:1:

    Quote
    And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.


    Matthew and Luke, written after Mark and including Mark's words into their texts, include this same quote in slight variation in Matthew 16:8 and Luke 9:27. The view of Jesus about marriage and childbirth in these texts is that it is something to escape, that it is something you should avoid and abandon because of how soon the world will end. So in Matthew, for example, when Jesus does speak about the brotherhood of believers and their relationship as members of his household, he is not speaking about the kind of love and nurture we are speaking about when we use those terms. Instead he means the relationship of the Pater Familia, the Roman patriarch who is the head of the household in the financial and political sense and the protector of its interests. He uses this language of authority and giving you authority as his representative in Matthew 18:18:

    Quote
    Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.


    Interestingly within this kind of context if you consider yourself the servant or slave of Jesus, as indeed Paul does, it was perfectly acceptable for the Pater Familia to "sodomize" his slaves. This may not have made it into the text, but in Matthew, Jesus certainly does believe he has ownership of believers' junk. For example he says in Matthew 19:12:

    Quote
    For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.

     

    “Eunuch” does not mean simply being abstinent from sexual activity, it means having deformation or removal of the male sex organ. This command to self mutilate if you wish to receive the true teachings of Jesus is a drastic departure from what most modern Christians view as Christianity, but according to the author of Matthew, this is the true Christian teaching, and anything else is a lie to take you off the right path.

    Matthew also quotes Jesus as saying, “And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.” He is literally saying to abandon everyone you love, your entire family, including your wife and kids, to pursue your relationship with him. This is not how modern Christians understand the Bible, but it does seem to be how at least some of the Christian authors did.

    Paul also seems to see marriage as a distraction and a necessary evil that should be avoided. For example, he says in 1 Corinthians 7:

    Quote
    8 I say therefore to the unmarried and widows: It is good for them if they remain even as I.
    9 But if they cannot contain themselves, let them marry; for it is better to marry than to burn.
    ...
    29 But this I say, brethren: the time is short. It remaineth that those who have wives should be as though they had none;
    30 and those who weep, as though they wept not; and those who rejoice, as though they rejoiced not; and those who buy, as though they possessed not;
    31 and those who use this world, as not abusing it. For the fashion of this world passeth away.


    He seems to be saying here that the world is ending; get married if you must but that's a bad idea, because the world's ending. So within the context of the Pauline epistles, sex, heterosexual or homosexual, seems to be a distraction from the fact that the world is ending and that you should make your preparations for that instead of going around having sex. He seems to believe that celibacy is the most important thing. Paul, however, does not advocate the self harm that Matthew does; he is even against having people circumcised, as the book of Galatians makes clear. In Galatians 5:12, he says that the only people who should be self-mutilating are the ones commanding his followers to become circumcised.

    However, not all the Christian text's authors held this view about stopping sexual activity. The last chapter of Hebrews, which seems to have been written later than both the rest of Hebrews and the gospels, moves the idea of the kingdom of God to a spiritual plane instead of happening here on earth, and in so doing, postpones it to a place of repose after death:

    Quote
    Hebrews 13:12 Therefore Jesus also, that He might sanctify the people with His own blood, suffered outside the gate.
    13 Let us go forth therefore unto Him outside the camp, bearing His reproach.
    14 For here we have no continuing city, but we seek one to come.


    This chapter also is pro-marriage:

    Quote
    Hebrews 13:4 Marriage is honorable in all, and the bed undefiled; but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge.


    So in Hebrews 13, because the removal of when and where the kingdom of God will be from very soon, cataclysmically, here on earth, to a celestial plane, it is no longer problematic to marry in this lifetime, and sex and marriage becomes honorable. This goes back to the last discussion about how problematic the choice to be celibate was for the greater society in that time: because of the high rate of child and infant mortality, any girl who lived to the age of 14 statistically had to have 5 pregnancies ending in live birth, otherwise the population would be in a perpetual state of decline. People choosing to forego marriage and childbirth in the belief the world was ending and civilization was doomed could have itself doomed civilization.

    The gospel of John, also written relatively late in the evolution of Christianity, also moves everything related to the kingdom of God to a spiritual plane, and was also fairly pro-family. As early as chapter 2, Jesus' teachings about the destruction of the Temple and have been moved to a spiritual plane, with it saying that the Temple is his body and not the Temple in Jerusalem. In chapter 3 in his discussion with Nicodemus, he says that all his teachings are of heavenly or spiritual things, and this is repeated often in the rest of the book. Jesus has also not abandoned his family in this gospel, as he has in the others; his mother is present throughout his ministry, and is at the foot of the cross as he is dying. He also does miracles for people who request them for their family members, instead of telling them to abandon their family as dead to follow him, as it presents him in Matthew.

    The gospel of John speaks repeatedly about a disciple whom Jesus loved. In the Christian tradition, this is usually said to be John; but the text's author may have meant for it to be Lazarus, as when Lazarus is sick in John 11, his sisters send word to Jesus to say, “Lord, behold, he whom Thou lovest is sick.” His death is a personal tragedy, not just for his sisters, but for Jesus and his disciples; in John 11:16, Thomas says to his fellow disciples, “Let us also go, that we may die with him.” The "him" here may be Jesus, because they believed that Jesus would be stoned to death if he went to Judea, or it may have been Lazarus, because he was so beloved to Jesus and his disciples. Jesus clearly considers the death of Lazarus a tragedy, even though he believes Lazarus will be resurrected, as it says twice that he groaned in spirit, and also says he was troubled and that he wept.

    Whether the beloved disciple is John or Lazarus, both are men and the text seems to indicate a very close, very unique relationship between Jesus and this beloved disciple (and, if that is John, with Lazarus). This does seem to be a homo-romantic relationship, whether or not it is a sexual relationship.

    In the Questions of Bartholomew, which did not make it into the canon, the beloved disciple is Bartholomew, and Jesus imparts wisdom to him. The book starts after the resurrection of Jesus, and opens with Bartholomew discussing with Jesus how Jesus disappeared from the cross. Jesus says that it is because Bartholomew is beloved that he witnessed this and explains some mysteries to him. Later, Bartholomew and some other disciples decide to ask Mary about the virgin birth; Bartholomew suggests Peter ask, as the leader of the disciples, but Peter says John should ask, as John is himself a virgin. Mary says that a divine being, with a body like an angel but an incomprehensible face, came to her, called her his beloved, and said that in three years, she would conceive a son by which creation would be saved. Then she starts breathing fire, almost ending the world. Jesus imparts more wisdom to Bartholomew and tells Bartholomew he loves him a few more times,
    then tells him to tell this message to anyone who can keep it a secret. Then there's this line: "Then I, Bartholomew, which wrote these things in mine heart, took hold on the hand of the lord the lover of men and began to rejoice". So a few interesting things in this book: the term beloved in this book apparently denotes a relationship between a spiritual entity and physical entity in which one party may become pregnant, Bartholomew is beloved of Jesus, and Jesus is a lover of men.

    Other Christian texts that contained a more gnostic view and did not make it into the canon, such as the Gospel of Phillip, have a duality of maleness and femaleness, and this belief that marriage is the connection of maleness to femaleness to complete the purpose of the universe and to prevent evil. In the introduction to why marriage is necessary--which is to prevent a spiritual entity from seducing a physical entity and causing hybrid children--the author of the Gospel of Phillip says that Jesus' companion was Mary Magdalene and that Jesus would kiss her on the mouth; this led the Catholic church to slander Mary Magdalene by saying she was a prostitute who Jesus forgave. The fragments we have of the Gospel of Peter also indicate a special relationship between Jesus and Mary Magdalene, and say that she went to his tomb after the Sabbath because she had not had time before his burial to do "those things which women are accustomed to do unto them that die and are beloved of them".

    Another thing of note, not related to the Christian scriptures and apocrypha, is the stories of the lives of early Christians. There is at least one very good example of two men who were very likely lovers, and may have even been married depending on what is the most accurate interpretation of the earliest works depicting them (paintings of them), Saints Sergius and Bacchus. The earliest texts about them say they were both soldiers in the Roman army and were martyred for their faith; however this may have been a story invented about them after they were already popular, and was certainly written after gay marriage had been made illegal by the Christian Roman emperors Constantius II and Constans for debasing the dignity of man, a very Roman idea which as discussed previously had not occurred in previous Jewish texts.

    So there is at the very least a mixed set of ideas in the earliest Christian texts, both canonical and non-canonical, about whether a relationship in this world is a good idea; and if so, whether or not that relationship can be between two people of the same gender.

    Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for I have a sonic screwdriver, a tricorder, and a Type 2 phaser.
  • Homosexual & Transgender Issues In Religion--Comprehensive History
     Reply #11 - August 25, 2015, 09:08 AM

    Well crap. That's even longer than the last one.

    Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for I have a sonic screwdriver, a tricorder, and a Type 2 phaser.
  • Homosexual & Transgender Issues In Religion--Comprehensive History
     Reply #12 - August 26, 2015, 02:11 AM

    I know this is not about text or religious mandate, but Unni Wikan's observations on men living in the spheres of both genders in Oman just after it opened up to the outside world in the seventies has always been fascinating to me. If you are ever looking for examples of people living outside their religious mandates and still being considered an acceptable and integral part of culture in a religious society , I recommend Behind the Veil in Arabia: Women in Oman.

    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • Homosexual & Transgender Issues In Religion--Comprehensive History
     Reply #13 - August 26, 2015, 05:55 AM

    There was an interesting documentary on tv the other night called Muslim drag Queens, i will see if i can find it on the net later, can't paste anything on this phone..
  • Homosexual & Transgender Issues In Religion--Comprehensive History
     Reply #14 - August 27, 2015, 06:15 AM

    Good news! I have added closed captioning to the video so that it's easier to understand what I'm saying! I'll post a link to the video again because I talk so much and it's so far up the page lol:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8woS2YdyT8g

    To see the words, press the "CC" button in the bar where the sound is. It's on the left over by the little cog that brings up the setting menu. Unless Youtube has changed its format, in which case, it's wherever they have put it now! lol.

    Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for I have a sonic screwdriver, a tricorder, and a Type 2 phaser.
  • Homosexual & Transgender Issues In Religion--Comprehensive History
     Reply #15 - August 27, 2015, 01:38 PM

     Afro

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Homosexual & Transgender Issues In Religion--Comprehensive History
     Reply #16 - August 27, 2015, 02:45 PM

    Oh yeah, here's the Muslim drag queen documentary from ch4 that I forgot to paste


    https://youtu.be/vIey9wK6aIA


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIey9wK6aIA

  • Homosexual & Transgender Issues In Religion--Comprehensive History
     Reply #17 - August 27, 2015, 03:01 PM

    Oh I heard about that, thanks.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Homosexual & Transgender Issues In Religion--Comprehensive History
     Reply #18 - September 04, 2015, 05:42 AM

    I want to put the topic of homosexuality in the Abrahamic tradition to one side for the moment and talk instead about issues of gender identity: intersex, transgender, and non-binary gender issues. I will be going back to the discussion and talking about homosexuality in Islam, but first I'd like to talk about this issue.

    The first thing to point out is that the gender binary has not universally been understood in exactly the same way as it is in modern post-Roman society, with femininity being associated with submissive, subordinate, sexual passiveness/receptivity, etc. and masculinity being associated with dominance and control (in sexuality, religious and social situations, economically, and so on). These ideas were fundamentally quite Roman and have a lot to do with their political and social structures as well as their rather flawed understanding of medicine and the natural world. (For a general overview of this information, see   here [/u] .)

    That isn't to say that modern families are arranged the same way as Roman aristocratic ones were, but a lot of ideals of modern Judaism and Christianity (and by extension, the lands that have been colonized by the Christian world) are taken from the Roman empire's ideals. These ideals tend to be read into the ancient literature, even when that literature does not directly contain them.

    The second thing to point out is that there have been people outside the binary for all of recorded history. There have always been people who were different, both in terms of external genitalia and in terms of behavior. Men with deformed testes--whether they were born with the condition or had it inflicted on them--were generally called "eunuchs", and were sought after by kings as guards of their harems. Most intersex-genital babies were likely labeled male "eunuchs" regardless of their actual condition/what gender best fit them because of how little medical science was present in that era.

    In the pre-Judaism Israelite and Canaanite religion, there were many gods, some of whom were male, some of whom were female, and some of whom were depicted alternately as male and female within different images or sometimes even within one image. Ashtoreth or Astarte, who is said to have been worshiped by Solomon in 1 Kings 11:5, is believed to have been half male, half female at one point in her evolution as a goddess; she was the goddess of both war and fertility. In 2 Kings 23, this same goddess has artifacts in the temple of the Lord in Jerusalem, that are brought out and destroyed by King Josiah. Another god/goddess of ambiguous sex is Shemesh. There was an Israelite town called Beth Shemesh, to which the Philistines sent the ark of the Lord after they captured it in battle. The ark of the Lord was a very important, central image for the god that became the monotheistic, Abrahamic God--it was the icon of his worship in Shiloh, and later Jerusalem. So the Philistines, at the very least, saw Beth Shemesh--literally, the House of Shemesh, as the place where the ark of the Lord would be happy--and indeed, God sent it there, and it stayed there for quite some time. So there seems to be at least a tacit acceptance of the ambiguity of some people's, and some gods', genders at that time.

    The next stage in the story, the composition of the second temple era texts, occurred during the rule by the Persian Zoroastrian kings. In Zoroastrianism, women were viewed with suspicion because of their tendency to begin bleeding, for reasons that the medicine of the era could not explain, as blood leaving the body was seen as a sign of impurity. The Jewish texts incorporated this idea as well, with menstruation being an unclean activity that necessitated isolation from "the camp" in the "Mosaic" texts. These texts also say that someone with deformed testes are not to enter the service of God and cannot perform ritual acts like performing a sacrifice, because by doing so they would "profane" the holy places, although they are not to be isolated or expelled from the community. So this is probably the category that intersex individuals would fall under in that era--"deformed" and profane (ie not holy), but not impure.

    The texts do speak out against cross-dressing as well:

    Quote
    Deuteronomy 22:5 A woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment; for whosoever doeth these things is an abomination unto the LORD thy God.


    Note that this does not mention transgender individuals--it doesn't say "a person in a woman's body who identifies as a man shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man" or vice versa. It doesn't seem to consider that; instead what it is probably referencing is people disguising themselves as members of the opposite sex to get something, like access to women in a private--and by extension, sneakily sexual--way, or to get a better financial future. It seems to be an issue about deception, not about gender identity. Also, it is important to point out that the chapter goes on to say:

    Quote
    11 Thou shalt not wear a mingled stuff, wool and linen together. 12 Thou shalt make thee twisted cords upon the four corners of thy covering, wherewith thou coverest thyself.


    And yet I don't see many Christians running to check the content of their clothing and putting on clothes with knots in the corners.

    To keep this short, I'm going to skip over the Greek period for now, I'll come back to it when I go over issues of women's rights. So moving forward in time to the Roman/post-Temple period, as Jewish and Christian teachings diverged, so did their ideas about gender identity, but both remained fairly highly influenced by the Roman views of the time, both their rather misguided medical views and their views of gender norms and roles.

    In the Christian tradition, Paul was adamant about women being subservient.
    Quote
    1 Cor 11:3 But I would have you know that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is the man, and the head of Christ is God.
    4 Every man who prayeth or prophesieth, having his head covered, dishonoreth his head.
    5 But every woman who prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoreth her head, for that is one and the same as if she were shaven.
    6 For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn. But if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered.


    He seems to be saying here that a person must assume the role of a man or a woman. If a person wants to be a man, he should pray with his head uncovered, and if a person wants to present as a woman, she should pray with her head covered--which is the exact opposite of the Jewish tradition. If a person is female and wants to present as male, wants to not cover her head, she should shave it, she should make herself appear as a man. Again, I'm going to be going into more detail on women's rights in the Abrahamic tradition in more detail later, but for now I just want to point out that not all Christian writers came to the same conclusions about maleness/femaleness. The gnostic Christians in particular ended towards having differences of opinion with what would later become the mainstream Christian position.

    The Gospel of Thomas saying 114 demonstrates a slightly different way of viewing the issue:

    Quote
    [114]. Simon Peter says to them: "Let Mary go out from our midst, for women are not worthy of life!" Jesus says: "See, I will draw her so as to make her male so that she also may become a living spirit like you males. For every woman who has become male will enter the Kingdom of heaven."


    Whoever wrote this still seems to be of the opinion that femaleness is inferior, but that the female can become male, that a woman can stop being a woman. Indeed, Galatians 3 also seems to offer a chance that your gender should be removed:

    Quote
    28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female; for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.


    Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for I have a sonic screwdriver, a tricorder, and a Type 2 phaser.
  • Homosexual & Transgender Issues In Religion--Comprehensive History
     Reply #19 - September 04, 2015, 06:15 AM

    Cont. -- sorry, it got glitchy for a minute there and I couldn't make it work anymore lol.

    The author of Matthew seems to be of the opinion that you should be castrated--that those who are eunuchs, which as I said earlier, probably included intersex individuals, were in some way more capable of achieving salvation.

    Quote
    Matthew 19:12--For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.


    It's relatively late in the history of Christian dogma that gender binary becomes enforced and maleness is seen as inherently superior to femaleness. For example in 1 Timothy, femininity is entirely inferior and there seems to be no idea of any deviation from the binary:

    Quote
    2:11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
    12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
    13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
    14 And Adam was not deceived; but the woman, being deceived, was in the transgression.
    15 Notwithstanding, she shall be saved in childbearing if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobermindedness.


    In this passage, it seems that not only are males and females entirely separate, with no gray area, but that women are damned by virtue of their gender and their only chance of salvation is having babies. However, it is worth noting that Paul did not write this text, according to Biblical scholars--this book was written by someone else, claiming to be Paul, probably after Paul's death. This was a very Roman idea introduced to the texts, not an idea organically growing from the earlier teachings of the Abrahamic tradition.

    At the same time, in the post-Temple period, the Jewish consensus on the androgynous ("tumtum" in the literature) is that, when faced with ambiguous genitals, failing a good way to determine what secondary sexual characteristics a person will develop (ie, breasts or a beard), ability to reproduce, or gender identity, the best thing to do is to "play it safe" and have them obey all the laws that men must obey (because men have more commands to follow than women), even if they turn out to be mostly feminine. For the Rabbis, gender was strictly a matter of genitals/reproduction, and not a matter of internal identity, and to them, altering the genitals was forbidden. However, given their other statements on issues of health and medicine, I do believe that if they were alive today they would be in support of trans* people. They were pro-science and felt it was extremely important to listen to the consensus of the medical community, so given that the consensus of the medical community, in our times, is that trans* people are truly the gender they identify with and are best helped by being allowed to live as that gender instead of being forced to conform to the gender of their external anatomy, I believe that they would have ruled that trans* people should be allowed to transition and should keep the religious rules of the gender they are, not the gender of the genitals they were born with.

    Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for I have a sonic screwdriver, a tricorder, and a Type 2 phaser.
  • Homosexual & Transgender Issues In Religion--Comprehensive History
     Reply #20 - September 07, 2015, 08:40 AM

    Homosexuality in Christianity is up! (Now with closed captions because it's hard to hear me--tho I think the audio was better on this one than the last one!)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s4VosLQwvyU

    Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for I have a sonic screwdriver, a tricorder, and a Type 2 phaser.
  • Homosexual & Transgender Issues In Religion--Comprehensive History
     Reply #21 - September 17, 2015, 09:30 AM

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJOHyanX9MI

    Gender identity in the early Abrahamic tradition is up too! (Also with closed captions!!) I've been running around before the surgery, had so much on my plate lately.

    Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for I have a sonic screwdriver, a tricorder, and a Type 2 phaser.
  • Homosexual & Transgender Issues In Religion--Comprehensive History
     Reply #22 - September 24, 2015, 01:17 AM

    And now, for the topic we've all been waiting for...Homosexuality/Gender Identity in Islam! Or as much of that as I feel like...

    People in the western world tend to think of Islam as separate from the Abrahamic tradition, but it is at its core heavily influenced by the older Abrahamic religions (especially by forms of Christianity that had been deemed heretical by the religious authorities centered in Rome--as those Christians had gone to Arabia and other parts of the early Muslim world), in addition to having some Arabic and Persian roots. So it is important to keep in mind that it is part of the Abrahamic tradition, but was not as heavily influenced by Roman ideas of gender/sexual binary. That's why it's very important to think outside the Roman-based binary when discussing homosexuality and gender identity in the Islamic tradition. The following statement is going to sound very strange to people who have grown up inside a culture with this binary, but I'm going to go into a lot more detail on it:

    Historically, in Islam, homosexual intercourse could only occur between two heterosexual men.

    [Jakob will say something here about how is that possible; I can't frame that question right now, so I'm framing the response instead.]

    Yes, I think most people listening to that statement will respond with something along the lines of "straight people don't have gay sex, why would two straight men have gay sex?" But the point of that statement is that someone with male genitalia is not necessarily considered "male," and for an act to be homosexual it has to involve two people of the same gender--so if a person has male genitals, but is not male, it's not a homosexual act for that person to have sex with a man. For the majority of Islam's early history, until there was a huge amount of interaction with the Rome-based Christian dogma (and especially post-colonization), it seems that most Muslims did not see exclusively homosexual people with male genitalia as being in the same gender category as heterosexual men, and so heterosexual or bisexual men could have sex with them without it being a sin, because that wasn't an act of homosexual intercourse.

    Exclusively homosexual men seem to have been in a gender identity category of their own. The category was called a "natural eunuch." Now we had discussed before how in an earlier era (in the early Israelite and Roman times), a eunuch was a person with a deformation or removal of the male sex organ, but we're now several centuries later than that--the texts I'm going to be talking about are written in the 7th-9th century CE, approximately, and in most of what is known as the Muslim world. Here, "eunuch" means anyone who is not able to achieve an erection around a woman. This could be because of damage to the sex organ or it could be because they are an exclusively homosexual man (or in some cases/locations, it could be a boy who has not hit puberty, although this is usually a separate category).

    Islamic law comes from a few sources. The first is the Quran, the holy book of Islam; the second is the hadith, which are sayings about the life of Mohammad, and the third is the consensus of the scholars (often called the ulama), and all three of these sources recognize exclusively homosexual men as a category separate from heterosexual men, either by the title of eunuchs or by description as unable to perform sexually with women. In Islam, women need to observe stricter modesty around men who are potential marriage partners for them than with men who aren't. In the Quran chapter 24:31, it lists these natural eunuchs, "male attendants having no physical desire/skill" (the word has both meanings), with a woman's close family and small children as men she does not need to observe the strictest level of modesty around.

    The hadith collections of Bukhari and Muslim (the two main sources of hadith believed to be authentic) both indicate that there was a servant who was assumed to be a "natural eunuch"/"not a possessor of the desire/skill" because he was effeminate in the service of Umm Salama, a wife of Mohammad. When this slave one day unexpectedly made a sexual comment about a woman, he was no longer allowed to be around her in private and she had to observe hijab around him. This indicates that it had been fine for her to not observe hijab around him until it was discovered that he DID have the desire/skill.

    As I had mentioned in the last episode about the rules of cross-dressing being against deception for personal gain instead of being about gender identity, there was also considered to be a danger that effeminate men could pretend to be exclusively homosexual to gain private access to their masters' wives or that butch women could disguise themselves as men for the same purpose. According to Bukhari book 72, chapter 61, sayings 773 and 774, slaves were expelled from the household/service of Mohammad and Umar for this presumption of deception about their sexuality (but not for actually having engaged in a homosexual act).

    In contrast, people who were actually effeminate men, who were not faking it, who lacked the desire/skill are not being denigrated by this passage, and sex with them was not considered a crime. Again, Bukhari indicates that there is no sin in having sex with a "true" natural eunuch. In book 62, Chapter 6, saying 9, it says:

    Quote
    Narrated ibn Mas'ud: We used to fight alongside the Prophet, peace be upon him. There were no women with us, so we said: "O Messenger of God, may we not treat some as eunuchs?" He forbade us to do so."

     

    Who they wanted to treat as eunuchs (whether it was other--perhaps younger--soldiers, slaves, or prisoners of war) is unclear, but what is clear is that treating someone "as a eunuch" when your wife is not present means using them for sexual release. Making use of someone who ISN'T a eunuch, making use of another heterosexual man, in a sexual way is wrong, according to this; and it's identified with the sin of Lot (in Arabic, Lut) in other passages. But making use of a eunuch in this way is not being forbidden.

    [cont.]

    Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for I have a sonic screwdriver, a tricorder, and a Type 2 phaser.
  • Homosexual & Transgender Issues In Religion--Comprehensive History
     Reply #23 - October 01, 2015, 08:27 AM

    The last thing I wanted to say on the topic of homosexuality in Islam is in regards to Abu Hurairah (literally, father of the kitten). Abu Hurairah was a companion of Mohammad for the last two years of Mohammad's life. He is credited with having narrated over 5,000 hadith. In one of them, he tells Mohammad that he is a young man but does not have/feel what it takes to marry women. Mohammad says nothing, so Abu Hurairah asked something similar again 3 more times. Finally, Mohammad tells him "the pen is dried" as to what he is experiencing (ie this condition is permanent, set in stone, and will not change--which negates the possibility that what he meant by "not having what it takes to marry women" meaning that he did not have the money to pay a dowry, as that's not a permanent condition), and so to be a eunuch or let it be.

    Now as I had already said, being a eunuch does not necessarily mean a removal of the sex organ at this point in history. It probably, in this context and in the light of the hadith I mentioned a minute ago where eunuchs are clearly being used as passive sexual partners, means to be a passive sex partner for other men, and so the options Mohammad gives Abu Hurairah are to be a eunuch or to "let it be." Abu Hurairah, it should be noted, is never said to have taken a wife or had any children (even by a concubine or slave), so he probably did either live a life of total abstinence or have exclusively male partners.

    So to summarize, in the Muslim world there wasn't a sense that being of a divergent gender was necessarily a bad thing, and there was a much greater acceptance of male-on-male intercourse because it wasn't considered "gay" in all circumstances.

    Turning to the topic of gender reassignment surgery for a second, I wanted to take a few minutes to shed a bit more light on what I said in the last video about what the early authors of religious texts believed about transgender issues. Although it is true that the Talmud, for example, says that it is murder to perform a surgery that is not medically necessary on a man's genitals, think about the time in which this was written. The time when these texts were being written--the first and second century for the Christian texts, 3-5th century for the Talmud, and 7-8th century for the Muslim texts, was a time before anesthesia, before antibiotics, before antibacterial soap, before sterile hospitals or bandages. In that era, surgery meant "this is the last hope to make this person live long enough to appoint an heir or get his things in order." When you think about what they said about it in the light of that, it's obvious that they meant "cosmetic surgery is murder" in a very literal way and not as a mystical or spiritual truth. An optional surgery was literally murder, because the person would probably die from an infection after the surgery (if not from bleeding or shock during the surgery).

    That's why I believe it's disrespectful to those authors, to their intelligence, and to their values to quote statements they made on the topic of medicine as a basis to deny people rights. I don't believe that they'd say a gender reassignment surgery was murder if they were alive today. Modern Shiite Muslim religious authorities do not consider it wrong to conduct such a surgery--and so as a result, they are legal and freely available in Iran. In Pakistan (predominantly Sunni), there is legal recognition of a "third gender" on identity cards, used mainly for hijra who are not necessarily "transgender women" as we understand the term in the west, many of them may simply be effeminate men who have no desire for sex with women, more in line with what we in the west would call homosexual men.

    ==================

    I feel like I should bring up bacha bazi, too, but at the same time that's not a very positive example of homosexual relationships because the boys tend to be quite young and it tends to be forced onto them, so I'm not sure how to tie it in neatly.

    Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for I have a sonic screwdriver, a tricorder, and a Type 2 phaser.
  • Homosexual & Transgender Issues In Religion--Comprehensive History
     Reply #24 - October 05, 2015, 10:51 PM

    Oh another thing about why "doesn't have what it takes to marry women" couldn't have meant dowry: there were other people who came to Mohammad and said that they did not have money for dowry and he told them to give any passages they'd memorized of the Quran as a dowry, so even if Abu Hurairah was permanently poor, he couldn't have also been permanently so unable to remember anything that he couldn't even memorize the Quran, and still have been able to hand down all those hadith.

    Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for I have a sonic screwdriver, a tricorder, and a Type 2 phaser.
  • Homosexual & Transgender Issues In Religion--Comprehensive History
     Reply #25 - August 06, 2016, 05:06 AM

    Here's the video for Islam, at long last! https://t.co/AvZhjEPURK

    Jakob lost the first recording so we had to do it again lol.

    Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for I have a sonic screwdriver, a tricorder, and a Type 2 phaser.
  • Homosexual & Transgender Issues In Religion--Comprehensive History
     Reply #26 - August 06, 2016, 07:16 AM

    Brian Whitaker on transgender issues in the Middle East

    http://al-bab.com/blog/2016/02/transgender-issues-middle-east-1
    Quote
    While there is much debate about the rights of women in the Middle East  and the rights of gay and lesbian people have also begun to attract some attention, consideration of transgender rights is long overdue.

    In a region where gender segregation is widespread and dress codes are sometimes enforced by law, the problems of transgender people are especially acute. When so much of the social structure is based around a clear-cut distinction between male and female, anything that obscures the distinction is viewed as a problem and sometimes even as a threat to the established order.

    This is the first in a series of "long read" articles which aim to give a broad but detailed overview of transgender issues in the Middle East.

    The complete series can also be downloaded as a printable 23-page PDF.

  • Homosexual & Transgender Issues In Religion--Comprehensive History
     Reply #27 - August 13, 2016, 01:31 AM

    Only religions hate LGBT community.
    I found no hatred or objection from cosmos on LGBT community.

    It all started from fucking nothing.
    abiogenesis

    some say, attack on earth by meteorites billions of years ago was intervention from divine force.
    but that divine force fucked my life very hard



    I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.
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