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Theme Changer

 Topic: Greetings from Pakistan

 (Read 5103 times)
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  • Greetings from Pakistan
     OP - July 15, 2015, 02:08 AM

    Hello World. I lurked here for some time and now I decided to be a part of it. Apologies for bad grammar in advance as English is not my native language. I'm an ex Muslim from Karachi, Pakistan. I'm in my mid twenties. I have been an Ex Muslim for about 9 months or so. I was always an skeptic since I can remember. I always tried to see things rationally than spritually, I'm not sure what spritual actually means. The stories of angels pouring down rain didn't made much sense to me when I was a kid. Neither did the myth of having two angels on each of your shoulder, writing your every move. Is God out of memory that he needs angels to jot things down for him? I had so many questions, but we all know how we were silenced when we get too rational. Suddenly its not us but the Satan in our voice, only to lead others astray by speaking sense to them. I didn't like the concept of Hell. Neither of Heaven. One of my pet peeves was concept of "Day Of Judgement". It all depends on Allah, whoever he wants to put in Jannah or in Hell. So why invented the idea of deeds at all? And there are so many free passes to Jannah. Learn a scripture by heart without knowing what the hell it says, and voila, you have a free ticket to Jannah. Then there were philosophical problems that robbed me many of my sleeps. Did Allah knew where I'm going to end up before he even created me? If he knew, then where is my freedom of choice?, if he didn't, then he is not omniscient. Why did he needed to create kuffars, who he knew eventually be burning in hell, forever. Why create them in the first place? Forever is a long time. I found it sadistic.

    But I was afraid, as we all were, of burning in hell. I found myself so lucky, to have been given the meaning of life, at the time of my birth, thanks to my muslim parents. While everyone else, who were not muslim, have a huge task of figuring it out. Only if they were born into the salvated geographical location, with ancestors of muslim faith. To me, it was really a flawed and imperfect system. These questions never got answered. Since these questions were obviously from the devil, I needed not the think about them and pray to Allah for forgiveness. Time goes by, and I became an average muslim growing up. Brainwashed by his surroundings. Unwilling to accept new ideas. Unaware of how ridiculous its all is. Just like when you were a kid, the world was all sunshines and rainbows. And you have no clue of morbid reality. Whenever I read any controversial stuff regarding Islam,  I always tried to justify it in my head, it appears to seems bad but there must be some mysterious hidden hikmah we cannot comprehend. I questioned my sexuality, I figured I'm attracted to both genders. But I thought the attraction towards guys must be a test from Allah. I must be special to him that he is testing me further.

    Meanwhile, one the greatest inventions of mankind of the last century, the internet reaches my home. The invention that connects human minds and their ideas on the grid. I got exposed to the various ideas. Many of them were surprizingly amazing. I learned what evolution really meant. The origin of the universe. I was oblivious of what the word science meant. Now I was hooked. Carl Sagan, Neil Degrasse Tyson and many others science writers became my favourite personalities. I started to realize the nature of religion, and its relation to idealism. I  found out that I'm a naturalist by nature. I would rather live in a world where two people claim things, backed up by theories, hypothesis or evidence, susceptible of being wrong. After some time one of them accepts the version of another one to be aligned with reality, and carry on understand the nature of reality without being hurt. Rather than the world of feelings, sprituality, myths, intolerence and the false assumptions like being the chosen one. I understood the nature of religion. Its nothing but myths, created by our confused ancestors to make sense of reality back then and use it for their political interests. The 21st century has no place for organized religion. Now that I look back I cringe so hard on my justifications on being bisexual. Now I don't have to justify anything in my head, for who I am. Also when I read about the real character of Muhammad, I find it disgusting. When you were a muslim, you don't get to exposed to a lot of controversial stuff. When I read stuff about Muhammad, from the mercy to mankind, Muhammad became a greedy warlord, a sex maniac and a surely a rapist if not a pedophile. Things finally starts to make sense. Islam is not a final version but has been plagiarized. It is nothing but an amalgamation of Christianity, Judaism, Sabianism and Paganism. The words holy, divine and miracle have lost their meaning to me.

    The final blow to my faith came after I read "The Stranger" by Albert Camus, It introduced me to existentialism. Existentialism is a philosophy that emphasizes individual existence, freedom and choice. It is the view that humans define their own meaning in life, and try to make rational decisions despite existing in an irrational universe. Another book, "Ishmael" by Daniel Quinn helped me see things from a different perspective. I realized I no longer believe in Quranic myths. Now I would define myself as an Agnostic Atheist and a Humanist.

    When I lost my faith I thought I'm the only one, but when I looked up on the internet I was surprized to find so many like me. I think in the near future we might see many more people realizing and dusting off religion. There so much to learn about ourselves and the universe, hence I'm here to connect and share ideas with like-minded minds. I'm sorry for writing this huge wall of text, thanks for reading Smiley

    "For we decieve ourselves by looking for death ahead of us, whereas a great part of death has already taken place. Whatever part of life is behind us is possessed by death." - Seneca
  • Greetings from Pakistan
     Reply #1 - July 15, 2015, 07:40 AM

    Hi and welcome to the forum umeedesehar Smiley

    He's no friend to the friendless
    And he's the mother of grief
    There's only sorrow for tomorrow
    Surely life is too brief
  • Greetings from Pakistan
     Reply #2 - July 15, 2015, 09:37 AM

    Welcome Umeed e Seher, enjoy being Murtid and Mulhid Cheesy

    by the way I am in Karachi too, but not attracted towards males, so don't take it as a hint Tongue

    An endangered rational thinker in Pakistan.
  • Greetings from Pakistan
     Reply #3 - July 15, 2015, 10:29 AM

    Please spare us such silly remarks, Cheeko.

    He's no friend to the friendless
    And he's the mother of grief
    There's only sorrow for tomorrow
    Surely life is too brief
  • Greetings from Pakistan
     Reply #4 - July 15, 2015, 11:24 AM

    Welcome brother. Smiley
  • Greetings from Pakistan
     Reply #5 - July 15, 2015, 02:54 PM

    Welcome to the dark side. We lied about the cookies Wink

    I can relate to your story, we all know how it feels when knowledge takes away our comfort blanket that we call religion. But after a few months of depression and anger about being lied to all this time, things definitely start making sense, and it's like being born again.
    I live in Karachi myself. Nice to see another Karachi'ite here Smiley
  • Greetings from Pakistan
     Reply #6 - July 15, 2015, 04:49 PM

    @Naeyrsn: Thanks a lot Smiley

    @Cheeko: phew thanks for letting me know, oh well thank you.

    @Doubting Tomas: Thanks brother Smiley

    @Hira: wow another karachiite. I agree,  its more like waking up. Also when you leave islam you get into an existential crisis. What do I live for now? This is the hardest part to climb.Although I've passed the transitionary period. But I can't ignore the pointlessness of life. I hope I'll get past it and find a meaningful reason to exist.

    "For we decieve ourselves by looking for death ahead of us, whereas a great part of death has already taken place. Whatever part of life is behind us is possessed by death." - Seneca
  • Greetings from Pakistan
     Reply #7 - July 15, 2015, 09:14 PM

    Let me help with that. You werent living for religion, you were waiting to die because of religion, that stupid fantasy of going into heaven and forgetting all your problems, that doesnt help anyone live. If anything it makes them look forward to death. As an atheist, you know its right now or never.

    Being kind to people for your own sake and happiness is way better than being kind to them for a reward. Thats not kindness, thats trade. Personally, atheism has given me a reason to survive, i value my life and my short time here way more now.
  • Greetings from Pakistan
     Reply #8 - July 16, 2015, 08:14 AM

    Being kind to people for your own sake and happiness is way better than being kind to them for a reward. Thats not kindness, thats trade. Personally, atheism has given me a reason to survive, i value my life and my short time here way more now.


    Lest the lure of wine and honey taint the worship's aim,
    Let someone thrust the paradise into the hell aflame!

    Mirza Asad Ullah Khan Ghalib

    طاعت میں تا، رہے نہ و انگبیں کی لاگ
    دوزخ میں ڈال دو، کوئی لے کے بہشت کو

    مرزا اسد اللہ خاں غالب.

    An endangered rational thinker in Pakistan.
  • Greetings from Pakistan
     Reply #9 - July 16, 2015, 11:55 AM

    Let me help with that. You werent living for religion, you were waiting to die because of religion, that stupid fantasy of going into heaven and forgetting all your problems, that doesnt help anyone live. If anything it makes them look forward to death. As an atheist, you know its right now or never.

    Being kind to people for your own sake and happiness is way better than being kind to them for a reward. Thats not kindness, thats trade. Personally, atheism has given me a reason to survive, i value my life and my short time here way more now.


    Oh I remember when I first had the realiztion of the fatality of life, that this is it. There will be no afterlife. All the people who have died, have gone forever. They are lost in time. For me it was one of the hardest truth to swallow. A bit of stoic philosophy helped. I remember I became much more warm and mellow with my parents. I started to value my life more. Now that when I do good, like charity, it is just for the sake of goodness not for any rewards.

    By existential crisis, what I meant was, you know, when you look at the stars and the universe. It stares back at you with the big red question mark. What the fuck is going on? Who am I? Am I just a chance? Random sample in a series of permutations, or might be not that random but caused by previous actions. Am I just a peace of information, carrying my ancestors' genetic information and might be passing it on. What is the purpose of my existence? And what is the purpose of all this existence? It is the lack of any coherent answer that makes me wonder shoud I carry on with this menagerie or maybe call it quits before it runs out itself.
    And when you look around you with all these people getting caught in this 9 to 5 web, including myself. It sends me into a depressive mode. Right now the purpose is not to cause anyone any harm, and be a helpful member of humanity.

    "For we decieve ourselves by looking for death ahead of us, whereas a great part of death has already taken place. Whatever part of life is behind us is possessed by death." - Seneca
  • Greetings from Pakistan
     Reply #10 - July 16, 2015, 11:57 AM

    Lest the lure of wine and honey taint the worship's aim,
    Let someone thrust the paradise into the hell aflame!

    Mirza Asad Ullah Khan Ghalib

    طاعت میں تا، رہے نہ و انگبیں کی لاگ
    دوزخ میں ڈال دو، کوئی لے کے بہشت کو

    مرزا اسد اللہ خاں غالب.


    Thats a wonderful translation.

    "For we decieve ourselves by looking for death ahead of us, whereas a great part of death has already taken place. Whatever part of life is behind us is possessed by death." - Seneca
  • Greetings from Pakistan
     Reply #11 - July 16, 2015, 12:25 PM

    Lest the lure of wine and honey taint the worship's aim,
    Let someone thrust the paradise into the hell aflame!

    Mirza Asad Ullah Khan Ghalib

    طاعت میں تا، رہے نہ و انگبیں کی لاگ
    دوزخ میں ڈال دو، کوئی لے کے بہشت کو

    مرزا اسد اللہ خاں غالب.


    Yeh mujhe samajh nahi aya  Huh?
  • Greetings from Pakistan
     Reply #12 - July 16, 2015, 12:36 PM

    Oh I remember when I first had the realiztion of the fatality of life, that this is it. There will be no afterlife. All the people who have died, have gone forever. They are lost in time. For me it was one of the hardest truth to swallow. A bit of stoic philosophy helped. I remember I became much more warm and mellow with my parents. I started to value my life more. Now that when I do good, like charity, it is just for the sake of goodness not for any rewards.

    By existential crisis, what I meant was, you know, when you look at the stars and the universe. It stares back at you with the big red question mark. What the fuck is going on? Who am I? Am I just a chance? Random sample in a series of permutations, or might be not that random but caused by previous actions. Am I just a peace of information, carrying my ancestors' genetic information and might be passing it on. What is the purpose of my existence? And what is the purpose of all this existence? It is the lack of any coherent answer that makes me wonder shoud I carry on with this menagerie or maybe call it quits before it runs out itself.
    And when you look around you with all these people getting caught in this 9 to 5 web, including myself. It sends me into a depressive mode. Right now the purpose is not to cause anyone any harm, and be a helpful member of humanity.



    These are the 'why' questions and you can answer them any way you want. Whatever makes you feel better. Because there is no answer to this question. We usually look for a purpose of our existence because we think we are better than every other creature. What is the purpose of a cat? Or a dog or a rock? Our brains think that we must be at the center of all action, i dont know if its due to religious indoctrination or if it served a purpose from evolutionary point of view, but we all believe that we are the center of attention and we wont have it any other way. But sadly reality is different. We are just tiny little people living in a tiny little blue dot in a tiny little solar system in a vast universe, which might be a tiny universe in a multiverse. Okay now i am depressed LOL. Point is, there is no predetermined purpose to our existence. We have the freedom to choose the meaning of our lives and then dedicate our lives to that purpose. I think i'll now go and kill myself. Cheesy
  • Greetings from Pakistan
     Reply #13 - July 16, 2015, 01:10 PM

    Yeh mujhe samajh nahi aya  Huh?


    طاعت میں تا، رہے نہ و انگبیں کی لاگ
    دوزخ میں ڈال دو، کوئی لے کے بہشت کو

    طاعت = عبادت / اطاعت.
    انگبیں= شہد  /شراب
    لاگ = تعلق

    عبادت اور نیکی کو اگر جنّت کی شراب اور شہد  کی لالچ خراب کردے.
    تو ایسی جنّت کو دوزخ میں ڈال دے کوئی.

    It's better to put such a heaven in the fire of hell, which taints the good deeds and worships made in greed of the wine and honey of heavens.  

    (Ignore my bad translation)

    An endangered rational thinker in Pakistan.
  • Re: Greetings from Pakistan
     Reply #14 - July 16, 2015, 01:13 PM

    These are the 'why' questions and you can answer them any way you want. Whatever makes you feel better. Because there is no answer to this question. We usually look for a purpose of our existence because we think we are better than every other creature. What is the purpose of a cat? Or a dog or a rock? Our brains think that we must be at the center of all action, i dont know if its due to religious indoctrination or if it served a purpose from evolutionary point of view, but we all believe that we are the center of attention and we wont have it any other way. But sadly reality is different. We are just tiny little people living in a tiny little blue dot in a tiny little solar system in a vast universe, which might be a tiny universe in a multiverse. Okay now i am depressed LOL. Point is, there is no predetermined purpose to our existence. We have the freedom to choose the meaning of our lives and then dedicate our lives to that purpose. I think i'll now go and kill myself. Cheesy


    can't agree more with anyone, not talking about the last statement. Smiley

    An endangered rational thinker in Pakistan.
  • Greetings from Pakistan
     Reply #15 - July 16, 2015, 01:28 PM

    These are the 'why' questions and you can answer them any way you want. Whatever makes you feel better. Because there is no answer to this question. We usually look for a purpose of our existence because we think we are better than every other creature. What is the purpose of a cat? Or a dog or a rock? Our brains think that we must be at the center of all action, i dont know if its due to religious indoctrination or if it served a purpose from evolutionary point of view, but we all believe that we are the center of attention and we wont have it any other way. But sadly reality is different. We are just tiny little people living in a tiny little blue dot in a tiny little solar system in a vast universe, which might be a tiny universe in a multiverse. Okay now i am depressed LOL. Point is, there is no predetermined purpose to our existence. We have the freedom to choose the meaning of our lives and then dedicate our lives to that purpose. I think i'll now go and kill myself. Cheesy


    Oh I wish it was that easy, or perhaps I'm not kafir enough lol

    "For we decieve ourselves by looking for death ahead of us, whereas a great part of death has already taken place. Whatever part of life is behind us is possessed by death." - Seneca
  • Greetings from Pakistan
     Reply #16 - July 16, 2015, 03:08 PM

    Welcome. I like your avatar.
  • Greetings from Pakistan
     Reply #17 - July 16, 2015, 04:14 PM

    طاعت میں تا، رہے نہ و انگبیں کی لاگ
    دوزخ میں ڈال دو، کوئی لے کے بہشت کو

    طاعت = عبادت / اطاعت.
    انگبیں= شہد  /شراب
    لاگ = تعلق

    عبادت اور نیکی کو اگر جنّت کی شراب اور شہد  کی لالچ خراب کردے.
    تو ایسی جنّت کو دوزخ میں ڈال دے کوئی.

    It's better to put such a heaven in the fire of hell, which taints the good deeds and worships made in greed of the wine and honey of heavens.  

    (Ignore my bad translation)


    Its not bad, i understand it perfectly now. This is a very nice quote, i am putting this as my fb status Cheesy
  • Greetings from Pakistan
     Reply #18 - July 16, 2015, 04:16 PM

    can't agree more with anyone, not talking about the last statement. Smiley


    Well thankyou kind sir.
  • Greetings from Pakistan
     Reply #19 - July 16, 2015, 04:17 PM

    Oh I wish it was that easy, or perhaps I'm not kafir enough lol


    Okay fine you really want to know the meaning of life? It's 42.
  • Greetings from Pakistan
     Reply #20 - July 16, 2015, 08:28 PM

     parrot

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Greetings from Pakistan
     Reply #21 - July 16, 2015, 08:31 PM

    Welcome. I like your avatar.

    Thank you. Its a picture of french author Albert Camus.

    "For we decieve ourselves by looking for death ahead of us, whereas a great part of death has already taken place. Whatever part of life is behind us is possessed by death." - Seneca
  • Greetings from Pakistan
     Reply #22 - July 16, 2015, 08:55 PM

    Okay fine you really want to know the meaning of life? It's 42.


    Oh nice reminder, I can't believe I've yet to finish that book. So many books, so little time.

    "For we decieve ourselves by looking for death ahead of us, whereas a great part of death has already taken place. Whatever part of life is behind us is possessed by death." - Seneca
  • Greetings from Pakistan
     Reply #23 - July 16, 2015, 09:17 PM

    Please spare us such silly remarks, Cheeko.

    I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt and assume it was good natured humour.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Greetings from Pakistan
     Reply #24 - July 17, 2015, 08:18 AM

    Oh nice reminder, I can't believe I've yet to finish that book. So many books, so little time.


    You havent yet? Dude hurry up, i've finished all 5 parts of it. Infact i've read all of his books  dance
  • Greetings from Pakistan
     Reply #25 - July 17, 2015, 08:31 AM

    I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt and assume it was good natured humour.


    Thanks Quod Sum, it was just for humor keeping following in mind  Smiley

    I questioned my sexuality, I figured I'm attracted to both genders. But I thought the attraction towards guys must be a test from Allah. I must be special to him that he is testing me further.


    An endangered rational thinker in Pakistan.
  • Greetings from Pakistan
     Reply #26 - July 17, 2015, 08:35 AM

    Late welcome! parrot
  • Greetings from Pakistan
     Reply #27 - July 17, 2015, 01:18 PM

    Welcome to the forum umeedesehar, have a rabbit!  bunny

    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Greetings from Pakistan
     Reply #28 - July 17, 2015, 02:35 PM

    @lua : Thank you
    @asbie : Thanks,  bunny
    @Hira : Would you lend me?

    "For we decieve ourselves by looking for death ahead of us, whereas a great part of death has already taken place. Whatever part of life is behind us is possessed by death." - Seneca
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