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Theme Changer

 Topic: Traders

 (Read 3505 times)
  • 1« Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Traders
     OP - July 13, 2015, 07:26 AM

    https://www.opendemocracy.net/faith-europe_islam/mohammed_3866.jsp

    Quote
    It is difficult not to suspect that the tradition places the prophet's career in Mecca for the same reason that it insists that he was illiterate: the only way he could have acquired his knowledge of all the things that God had previously told the Jews and the Christians was by revelation from God himself. Mecca was virgin territory; it had neither Jewish nor Christian communities.

    The suspicion that the location is doctrinally inspired is reinforced by the fact that the Qur'an describes the polytheist opponents as agriculturalists who cultivated wheat, grapes, olives, and date palms. Wheat, grapes and olives are the three staples of the Mediterranean; date palms take us southwards, but Mecca was not suitable for any kind of agriculture, and one could not possibly have produced olives there.

    In addition, the Qur'an twice describes its opponents as living in the site of a vanished nation, that is to say a town destroyed by God for its sins. There were many such ruined sites in northwest Arabia. The prophet frequently tells his opponents to consider their significance and on one occasion remarks, with reference to the remains of Lot's people, that

     "you pass by them in the morning and in the evening".

    This takes us to somewhere in the Dead Sea region. Respect for the traditional account has prevailed to such an extent among modern historians that the first two points have passed unnoticed until quite recently, while the third has been ignored. The exegetes said that the Quraysh passed by Lot's remains on their annual journeys to Syria, but the only way in which one can pass by a place in the morning and the evening is evidently by living somewhere in the vicinity.

    The annual journeys invoked by the exegetes were trading journeys. All the sources say that the Quraysh traded in southern Syria, many say that they traded in Yemen too, and some add Iraq and Ethiopia to their destinations. They are described as trading primarily in leather goods, woollen clothing, and other items of mostly pastoralist origin, as well as perfume (not south Arabian frankincense or Indian luxury goods, as used to be thought). Their caravan trade has been invoked to explain the familiarity with Biblical and para-Biblical material which is so marked a feature of the Qur'an, but this goes well beyond what traders would be likely to pick up on annual journeys. There is no doubt, however, that one way or the other a trading community is involved in the rise of Islam, though it is not clear how it relates to that of the agriculturalists of the Qur'an. On all this there is much to be said, if not yet with any certainty.



    I read somewhere that there has been a major misunderstanding of how land traders worked.  They actually only travelled a day away from their homes!

    Each morning you would load up your camels and donkeys (horses were for troops, wealthy and politically important) and travel for a day to the next town, where you would unload your camels for the night and rest them, and then take another load back to your home town, letting someone else take the cargo on to the next town.

    There are of course exceptions, like a desert, or if there wasn't anyone returning, or an annual long distance journeys, but the point is someone might at any point decide to go back, and for most of the year worked locally.

    Therefore I propose Mohammed can quite easily be located to a city within a day of Lot's stone where olives, grapes, wheat and dates were grown, which probably means a slightly higher and therefore cooler location with plenty of water.  

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Traders
     Reply #1 - July 13, 2015, 08:24 AM

    https://www.opendemocracy.net/faith-europe_islam/mohammed_3866.jsp

    I read somewhere that there has been a major misunderstanding of how land traders worked.  They actually only travelled a day away from their homes!

    Each morning you would load up your camels and donkeys (horses were for troops, wealthy and politically important) and travel for a day to the next town, where you would unload your camels for the night and rest them, and then take another load back to your home town, letting someone else take the cargo on to the next town.

    There are of course exceptions, like a desert, or if there wasn't anyone returning, or an annual long distance journeys, but the point is someone might at any point decide to go back, and for most of the year worked locally.

    Therefore I propose Mohammed can quite easily be located to a city within a day of Lot's stone where olives, grapes, wheat and dates were grown, which probably means a slightly higher and therefore cooler location with plenty of water.  

    Well   moi  that article  What do we actually know about Mohammed? PATRICIA CRONE 10 June 2008  is  old., 8 year old. And it is written by  Dr. Patricia Crone.  I didn't even realize until I tried to get bit more information on that article  that she died three days ago on July 11, 2015


    Patricia Crone (1945 – July 11, 2015) was a scholar, author, orientalist, and historian of early Islamic history. She worked from 1997 until retirement in 2014 at the Institute for Advanced Study in Princeton, New Jersey..

    Yes that Dr. Patricia Crone is no more.... RIP..   Patricia Crone: memoir of a superb Islamic scholar  JUDITH HERRIN 12 July 2015

    Anyway that was the starting point of questioning origins of Islamic prophet as told in Quran,  Hadith and early Islamic scholars. She actually initiated and popularized  that line of thinking..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Traders
     Reply #2 - July 13, 2015, 08:55 AM

    may she rest in peace, i was about to post about that, and found this thread
  • Traders
     Reply #3 - July 13, 2015, 10:10 AM

    may she rest in peace, i was about to post about that, and found this thread

    hello  hatoush ., there is a folder in this forum on the works of  Patricia Crone, ..may be  you are interested in reading it..   I consider her was as pioneer investigator of   on  early Islamic history.. Her thinking was always out of the box. Any way that link took me to casually read these links..

    http://zaidpub.com/welcome/about-2/omar-zaid-md/

    https://zaidpub.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/cains-creed-cult-of-rome-final-revision-october-2011.pdf

    that above pdf file is a 500 pages book with a name "Cain's Creed_ Cults of Rome  by a converted Muslim guy who happened to be Medical Doctor..   Dr. Omar Zaid MD



    Quote
    Dr. Omar Zaid (age 62, aka Leonard Joseph Owsiany, Jr.), is a retired Emergency Room Physician from Chester, Pa. (just south of Philadelphia); Currently at  Insaniah University, Alor Star, Kedah, from July/Aug of 2011, teaching Medical Ethics and aspects of Islamic Revealed Knowledge at Insaniah Medical College  Previously a Senior Research Fellow at ISTAC (IIUM) July 2007 – July 2011: ISTAC’s Research & Publication’s Coordinator; Contributing Editor to their quarterly Bulletin; Assistant Editor for their journal, Al Sajarah (listed with ISI Thompson), and various other publications in English. He Freelance Edits for IIUM Publications and is Senior Science Editor for EQHO Communications Ltd., an international translation Company in Bangkok since 2005.

    Prior to his conversion to Islam in 2004, Dr. Zaid was an Evangelical Christian Missionary in Sarawak, East Malaysia, where he also farmed rice, fish and poultry for five years while constructing a ten acre sustainable homestead in the Dyak jungle, some fifty-odd km outside of Kuching.   He has two sons there and six grown children in the States, as well as a daughter in Malang, Indonesia.  He does research on Church history, Gnosticism, the New World Order, Mystery Religions and Fertility Cults, the history of Hermetic Societies as well as Human Development and Sexuality.

    He is married to Malee Zaida: retired school teacher and Classical Thai Dance Instructor from Payao, N. Thailand.


    Interesting life and interesting story of a well  educated converter..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Traders
     Reply #4 - July 13, 2015, 10:15 AM

    Very sad to hear... RIP

    Chase Robinson - Crone and the end of orientalism
  • Traders
     Reply #5 - July 23, 2015, 12:35 AM

    Dr Crone was an inspiration to many. She lived *just* long enough to see her theories take root in the mainstream, under Tom Holland and Gabriel Said Reynolds.

    I wish I'd had the courage to send her an email when I could.
  • Traders
     Reply #6 - August 27, 2015, 02:28 PM

    RIP Patricia Crone - I only now heard of her passing :(
  • Traders
     Reply #7 - August 27, 2015, 09:11 PM

    ^Maybe the name of the thread could be changed. 'Patricia Crone RIP', or whatever the admins think best. As it is it doesn't really do her justice.
  • Traders
     Reply #8 - August 27, 2015, 09:29 PM

    Agreed
  • Traders
     Reply #9 - August 28, 2015, 07:54 AM

    ^Maybe the name of the thread could be changed.

    Yep. Whenever I see it I think "slaves". Or at the very least pistachios.
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