7:179: man created for hell?

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- kephas
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7:179: man created for hell?
OP - July 12, 2015, 02:02 PM

"And surely, We have created many of the jinns and mankind for Hell"

what does this verse mean? That Allah created many people for the specific intention of sending them to hell? Is there anything in the arabic that the translation missed? Or is it "supposed" to be interpreted as something else?

"we stand firm calling to allah all the time,
we let them know - bang! bang! - coz it's dawah time!"
- Quod Sum Eris
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7:179: man created for hell?
Reply #1 - July 12, 2015, 02:27 PM

Everything that happens is allah's will. If he had desired, every human would be a muslim. Some of us are just born to burn.

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
- yeezevee
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7:179: man created for hell?
Reply #2 - July 12, 2015, 02:37 PM

Quote from: kephas on July 12, 2015, 02:02 PM
"And surely, We have created many of the jinns and mankind for Hell"

what does this verse mean? That Allah created many people for the specific intention of sending them to hell? Is there anything in the arabic that the translation missed? Or is it "supposed" to be interpreted as something else?

kephas goes to Quran and picks up a verse ..No..no.. NOT A Verse but a bit of verse and asks a question "what does this verse mean?"

Hell kephas., whenever I read your posts .. you always seem to be going at Quran.. and you write very little outside of Quran, I wonder whether there is any specific reason for that? Incidentally I love it when some one discusses so-called revelations...

any ways., just for the sake of readers let us put that whole verse 7:179 along with different translations also add so-called Tafsir of that verse here..

Chapter (7) sūrat l-aʿrāf (The Heights) verse-179

Quote
Sahih International: And We have certainly created for Hell many of the jinn and mankind. They have hearts with which they do not understand, they have eyes with which they do not see, and they have ears with which they do not hear. Those are like livestock; rather, they are more astray. It is they who are the heedless.

Pickthall: ~~Already have We urged unto hell many of the jinn and humankind~~, having hearts wherewith they understand not, and having eyes wherewith they see not, and having ears wherewith they hear not. These are as the cattle - nay, but they are worse! These are the neglectful.

Yusuf Ali: Many are the Jinns and men we have made for Hell: They have hearts wherewith they understand not, eyes wherewith they see not, and ears wherewith they hear not. They are like cattle,- nay more misguided: for they are heedless (of warning).

Shakir: And certainly We have created for hell many of the jinn and the men; they have hearts with which they do not understand, and they have eyes with which they do not see, and they have ears with which they do not hear; they are as cattle, nay, they are in worse errors; these are the heedless ones.

Muhammad Sarwar:[ /b] We have destined many men and jinn for hell. They have hearts but do not understand, eyes but do not see. They have ears but do not hear. They are worse than lost cattle. These are the heedless ones.

Mohsin Khan: And surely, We have created many of the jinns and mankind for Hell. They have hearts wherewith they understand not, they have eyes wherewith they see not, and they have ears wherewith they hear not (the truth). They are like cattle, nay even more astray; those! They are the heedless ones.

Arberry: We have created for Gehenna many jinn and men: they have hearts, but understand not with them; they have eyes, but perceive not with them; they have ears, but they hear not with them. They are like cattle; nay, rather they are further astray. Those -- they are the heedless.

well that is what it is ., So nothing missed in translation kephas ., and let me add some links here

This was for kephas

and some times back I wrote something to wally on a similar verse from Quran

anyways we will discuss further on that verse ........ but those words are crystal clear that hell is indeed created for men and jinn

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
- yeezevee
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7:179: man created for hell?
Reply #3 - July 12, 2015, 02:39 PM

Quote from: Quod Sum Eris on July 12, 2015, 02:27 PM
Everything that happens is allah's will......

yes...yes.. that also goes to the POOP which comes out of the asses all animals including THE ANIMAL .. the human being .............. dear Quod....

http://www.gowister.com/islam-answer-7314.html
http://www.iqrasense.com/quranic-tafsir/nothing-happens-unless-decreed-by-allah-in-the-book-of-decrees.html
http://muslimmatters.org/2012/03/21/allahs-plan-for-you-and-me/

Fools talk nonsense....and brain wash innocent children and uneducated folks...

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
- bogart
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7:179: man created for hell?
Reply #4 - July 12, 2015, 03:54 PM

Quote from: kephas on July 12, 2015, 02:02 PM
"And surely, We have created many of the jinns and mankind for Hell"

what does this verse mean? That Allah created many people for the specific intention of sending them to hell? Is there anything in the arabic that the translation missed? Or is it "supposed" to be interpreted as something else?

It's predestination aka everything is by Allah's will. Thus there is no such thing as free will thus I can not be judged as it is Allah's will that I am not a believer. To judge me it is shift the blame from Allah to be but is incoherent given both verses.

If Allah created these humans and Jinn by with deficiencies as per Yeez's post then Allah made these people incapable of accepting Allah thus Allah is still responsible for these people and can not judge them as it is Allah's failure not Jinns nor humans.

http://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=9&verse=51
- Qtian
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7:179: man created for hell?
Reply #5 - July 12, 2015, 04:03 PM

Quote from: Bogart
It's predestination aka everything is by Allah's will.

I think it was asharite theologians who first(?) struggled with reconciling the ideas of predestination and Allah's mercy. The basic problem was that if predestination is true then is it ultimately Allah who creates evil?

I think that this idea is further elaborated in the Cambridge companion to classical Islamic theology.

Quote from: http://abdullahalmutairi.blogspot.co.uk/2012/12/the-problem-of-evil-in-muslim-context.html
...This argument was stated by the tenth-century Muslim theologian, Abū al-Hasan Alī ibn Ismā'īl al-Ash'arī. He argues that “God is the author of the moral law and as such is not subject to it. God can create evil without thereby being evil, just as He can create motion without thereby moving” (Legenhausen, p. 259). So he holds 1- God is not subject to moral law. 2- Since God is not subject to moral law his actions cannot be evil. He criticizes other theodicies that compromise God’s power. That is, by committing God to human moral law or human reason, they sacrifice his omnipotence. Al-Ashari bases his argument mainly on the divine command theory in which it is believed that God has no obligations to obey exactly what He commands human beings to do.

Euthyphro time.

My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
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7:179: man created for hell?
Reply #6 - July 12, 2015, 04:04 PM

Quote from: yeezevee on July 12, 2015, 02:37 PM
kephas goes to Quran and picks up a verse ..No..no.. NOT A Verse but a bit of verse and asks a question "what does this verse mean?"

Hell kephas., whenever I read your posts .. you always seem to be going at Quran.. and you write very little outside of Quran, I wonder whether there is any specific reason for that? Incidentally I love it when some one discusses so-called revelations..

heh. I don't always talk about the quran here, i think i spend more time lurking in the news section

"we stand firm calling to allah all the time,
we let them know - bang! bang! - coz it's dawah time!"
- kephas
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7:179: man created for hell?
Reply #7 - July 12, 2015, 04:10 PM

Quote from: Quod Sum Eris on July 12, 2015, 02:27 PM
Everything that happens is allah's will. If he had desired, every human would be a muslim. Some of us are just born to burn.

Quote from: bogart on July 12, 2015, 03:54 PM
It's predestination aka everything is by Allah's will. Thus there is no such thing as free will thus I can not be judged as it is Allah's will that I am not a believer. To judge me it is shift the blame from Allah to be but is incoherent given both verses.

If Allah created these humans and Jinn by with deficiencies as per Yeez's post then Allah made these people incapable of accepting Allah thus Allah is still responsible for these people and can not judge them as it is Allah's failure not Jinns nor humans.

http://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=9&verse=51

hmmm.... i guess that it's inevitable that the explanation of this verse would relate to predestination. I have to admit, qada wal qadar was one of the concepts that were quite hard for me to understand when i was muslim. But i thought that it meant something along the lines of "allah knows what's going to happen in the future, but man still has free will". Does qada wal qadr actually imply that allah wills for men to commit sin and go to hell tho?

"we stand firm calling to allah all the time,
we let them know - bang! bang! - coz it's dawah time!"
- bogart
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7:179: man created for hell?
Reply #8 - July 12, 2015, 04:13 PM

Quote from: Qtian on July 12, 2015, 04:03 PM
I think it was asharite theologians who first(?) struggled with reconciling the ideas of predestination and Allah's mercy. The basic problem was that if predestination is true then is it ultimately Allah who creates evil?

I think that this idea is further elaborated in the Cambridge companion to classical Islamic theology.

Euthyphro time.

Might makes right aka divine command theory rather than a reasonable argument. As per your problem of evil post it also destroys once of the omni concepts of God.
- bogart
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7:179: man created for hell?
Reply #9 - July 12, 2015, 04:17 PM

Quote from: kephas on July 12, 2015, 04:10 PM
hmmm.... i guess that it's inevitable that the explanation of this verse would relate to predestination. I have to admit, qada wal qadar was one of the concepts that were quite hard for me to understand when i was muslim. But i thought that it meant something along the lines of "allah knows what's going to happen in the future, but man still has free will". Does qada wal qadr actually imply that allah wills for men to commit sin and go to hell tho?

If God knows the future God is still responsible for creating the situation and result of man's free will. Even humans have laws against placing high risk offender from being close to the object of their offense. Child molestation as an example. If a school hires a teacher convicted of this it also hold responsible for creating the environment in which a person can repeat the offense. If God knows the future then free will is moot as predestination and hard determinism are set in stone.
- yeezevee
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7:179: man created for hell?
Reply #10 - July 12, 2015, 04:20 PM

Quote from: kephas on July 12, 2015, 04:04 PM
heh. I don't always talk about the quran here, i think i spend more time lurking in the news section

ok now you will be named as "lurking kephas" lol....

But kephas and Qtian and others
Quote from: Qtian on July 12, 2015, 04:03 PM
I think it was asharite theologians who first(?) struggled with reconciling the ideas of predestination and Allah's mercy. .............

I WILL NOT GIVE ANY CREDIT TO QURAN WRITERS for that verse., Such Idea of "Predetermined fate of human beings was already there before Islam.." in different faiths and different cultures. So No credit to Quran & Islam for that idea..

Quote
The Lord has made everything for its own purpose, Even the wicked for the day of evil. (– Prov 16:4)

now, will not God bring about justice for His elect who cry to Him day and night, and will He delay long over them? ...(– Luke 18:7)

And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified. (– Romans 8:28- 30)

Who will bring a charge against God’s elect? God is the one who justifies; (– Rom 8:33)

for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, (– Romans 9:11)

For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. (– Romans 9:15-16)

He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,… also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, –( Ephesians 1:5,11)

So dear friends.. neither credit to Quran, either I could blame Quran for that verse .

Rascals........................ Quran writers Plagiarized verses from other religious books and put it in their own words in an Arabic booklet

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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