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Theme Changer

 Topic: Will the "True Islam" Please Stand Up

 (Read 11631 times)
  • Previous page 1 23 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Will the "True Islam" Please Stand Up
     Reply #30 - July 06, 2015, 10:24 PM

    Don't be depressed Maxi Priest. My views haven't fundamentally changed. I stand by all my previous video and blogs. I just find I want to take a new approach that I believe will be a more fruitful in bringing about positive change. But I still support CEMB and ex-Muslims.

    Smiley
  • Will the "True Islam" Please Stand Up
     Reply #31 - July 07, 2015, 07:44 AM

    I think there is something beautiful about the idea of monotheism. I think that's where my bias stems from, and that's probably why Christianity seems kinda, I guess, weird to me. Obviously my education at both an Islamic high school and very liberal university factor into this.

    You are aware that christians view the trinity as the same god right? Interestingly, polytheism always seemed more logical to me than monotheism. The idea of all these conflicting aspects that are attributed to a single figure is just paradoxical. The most loving and at the same time the most hateful. The most just and the most unjust. The most merciful yet the most vengeful. It doesn't make sense. It's a complete contradiction. Having multiple gods takes this problem away. If monotheistic gods didn't have these paradoxic attributes theists might have better arguments. Grin

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Will the "True Islam" Please Stand Up
     Reply #32 - July 07, 2015, 09:45 AM

    As a Christian I never understood what is the Holy Spirit and why was brought up.
    Never mind I just wanted to say that I like Hassan's latest approach on the matter. Can be very refreshing for many Muslims, especially because it comes from a Muslim.  Afro
  • Will the "True Islam" Please Stand Up
     Reply #33 - July 07, 2015, 02:25 PM

    education would go a long way...could  go a long way... but bogart I am not sure what kind of education you are talking.,  but..but I see very well  educated folk with Master degrees running around religions and defending their scriptures as word of god..allah.. whatever..


    A few classes in philosophy and archaeological history. Those two subjects alone beat the Abrahmaic religions out of me.
  • Will the "True Islam" Please Stand Up
     Reply #34 - July 07, 2015, 02:28 PM

    You are aware that christians view the trinity as the same god right? Interestingly, polytheism always seemed more logical to me than monotheism. The idea of all these conflicting aspects that are attributed to a single figure is just paradoxical. The most loving and at the same time the most hateful. The most just and the most unjust. The most merciful yet the most vengeful. It doesn't make sense. It's a complete contradiction. Having multiple gods takes this problem away. If monotheistic gods didn't have these paradoxic attributes theists might have better arguments. Grin


    If one just divorces the concepts of justice, loving, mercy, etc, monotheism can function better by leaving a neutral entity. One could adopt the Hindu views of self-development rather than the God structured path of Abrahamic religions
  • Will the "True Islam" Please Stand Up
     Reply #35 - July 07, 2015, 05:59 PM

     yes

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Will the "True Islam" Please Stand Up
     Reply #36 - July 07, 2015, 10:18 PM

    .................... I just find I want to take a new approach that I believe will be a more fruitful in bringing about positive change. ............................

    :  

      Hmmm you are a dangerous guy you seem to act similar to that  William Stetson Kennedy of US of A..


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gopZ2X4FUiM

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Will the "True Islam" Please Stand Up
     Reply #37 - July 09, 2015, 02:56 PM

    This is something i have been thinking about recently and don't understand how a believing Muslim can believe in liberal/modern versions of Islam.

    What is being a Muslim? Someone who believers in the divine authorship of the Quran and Mohammed being a prophet of God, therefore you are naturally going to refer to what the Quran says, what Mohammed said and done and the tafsirs of the classical scholars who go back to Mohammed's time in order to understand what Islam teaches.

    As skeptics, disbelievers, agnostic Muslims or however we want to define ourselves, we can say there are liberal versions of Islam that allow homosexuality for example but surely a believing Muslim is going to ask you to prove it through Quran and Mohammed because after all, they are Muslims and their belief in these things being divine guidance is what makes them Muslims.

    Maybe someone educated in Islamic theology can help me on this one.
  • Will the "True Islam" Please Stand Up
     Reply #38 - July 09, 2015, 04:30 PM

    What is being a Muslim? Someone who believers in the divine authorship of the Quran and Mohammed being a prophet of God


    I want to widen that definition to include people like me.

    I am Agnostic, but I believe (or hope or wonder etc...) that there is "something" more - I can't define this "something" - I just believe there is something more to our existence than this. I could be wrong of course. This "belief" or "feeling" is irrational and emotional I know - but that's OK because I am a mixture of rational and irrational - and the need for emotional comfort and hopes are very important part of my mental well-being.

    I believe that this "something" - call  it God if you will - inspires us. Through nature, science, relationships and so on. It (this 'something') inspires us and motivates us to do things - art, music, poetry, literature, building, charity... anything that drives us and inspires us.

    I believe men and women down the ages have been inspired - and it is in this sense I am able to believe Muhammad - and indeed others - were inspired to compose the Qur'an.

    So let me ask your question again.

    What is being a Muslim?

    For me it is not only someone who believers in the divine authorship of the Quran and Mohammed being a prophet of God

    But in my case someone who believes the "divine" inspired the Quran - but did not author it - Mohammed authored it. Albeit inspired as men and women are inspired and driven by the "force" or "forces" that be - and that one can call God.

    Therefore it is not infallible and can sometimes just be plain "wrong"!

    I spun into a deep depression when I lost my faith. Holding onto this idea of there being "something" greater than this material existence makes me feel more comfortable. As does sharing my views with family, friends and other Muslims as a "Muslim" myself - rather than an Ex-Muslim.

    They are just labels and I am the same guy I have always been - but I don't see why I should have to excommunicate myself (as HM wonderfully said) just because I hold views traditionalists would view as "outside" Islam. Screw them! I was born and raised a Muslim - it's my religion as much as theirs and I'll define it as I wish.

    I think that's been our (Muslims) problem - we have allowed the traditionalist paradigm to define us - and we even police ourselves. Even non-Muslims police us FFS!!

    But no more!
  • Will the "True Islam" Please Stand Up
     Reply #39 - July 09, 2015, 04:40 PM

    Maybe someone educated in Islamic theology can help me on this one.


    And that illustrates my point.

    No, someone educated in Islamic theology can't help you. It's Islamic theology that is the problem!!
  • Will the "True Islam" Please Stand Up
     Reply #40 - July 09, 2015, 10:30 PM

    And that illustrates my point.

    No, someone educated in Islamic theology can't help you. It's Islamic theology that is the problem!!


    If you believe in an unorthodox interpretation of Islam and still want to call yourself a Muslim and be recognised as such, then that's fine and I completely understand. But how is this ever going to be accepted among the general Muslim population?

    For example, you write, 'Will the real Islam please stand up' and talk about how there are many different interpretations which are just as valid as each other.

    A believing Muslim, even a generally open-minded and tolerant one will think to themselves something along the lines of

    'He can discard the Quran and Sunnah and claim there is no such thing as a real Islam and call himself a Muslim, but we know very well what real Islam is, we have Fiqh that dates back all the way to the prophet and his companions, this is Islam, discarding this means discarding Islam'

    I don't see how these liberal/modern interpretations endorsed by Maajid Nawaz and co. will be accepted and practised among Muslims because It's essentially trying to persuade Muslims to ignore the scripture of their own religion, they will just scoff at you and find your interpretations laughable.

    Maybe that's going a bit off topic, I don't see a bright future for Muslims, especially those in the west.
  • Will the "True Islam" Please Stand Up
     Reply #41 - July 09, 2015, 11:05 PM

    You're ignoring the fact that interpretations of islam have always been in a state of flux. Do you think all the caliphates/islamic empires/civilizations were exactly the same? They weren't. Just as Turkey is very different from Saudi yet they both feel comfortable calling themselves muslim. Living in an age of secularism, what Hassan is talking about seems to me to be the next natural step.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Will the "True Islam" Please Stand Up
     Reply #42 - July 10, 2015, 07:32 AM

    You're ignoring the fact that interpretations of islam have always been in a state of flux. Do you think all the caliphates/islamic empires/civilizations were exactly the same? They weren't. Just as Turkey is very different from Saudi yet they both feel comfortable calling themselves muslim. Living in an age of secularism, what Hassan is talking about seems to me to be the next natural step.


    This is why i mentioned that perhaps someone educated in Islamic theology might be able to help me here.

    As far as i am aware, all mainstream interpretations follow a literal interpretation of the same scriptures (except the Shias). Therefore, their interpretations as a whole are all fairly similar and they generally respect each other as being Muslims, despite slight differences in their methodology regarding interpretation.

    However, for someone like Hassan or Majid or any other to come along and say to Muslims.

    'Hey guys, i have a liberal/modern interpretation of Islam that is just as valid as any other, start by throwing your Qurans in the bin because they are all useless'

    Do you think it's ever going to be taken seriously?
  • Will the "True Islam" Please Stand Up
     Reply #43 - July 10, 2015, 09:54 AM

    This is why i mentioned that perhaps someone educated in Islamic theology might be able to help me here.

    As far as i am aware, all mainstream interpretations follow a literal interpretation of the same scriptures (except the Shias). Therefore, their interpretations as a whole are all fairly similar and they generally respect each other as being Muslims, despite slight differences in their methodology regarding interpretation.

    However, for someone like Hassan or Majid or any other to come along and say to Muslims.

    'Hey guys, i have a liberal/modern interpretation of Islam that is just as valid as any other, start by throwing your Qurans in the bin because they are all useless'

    Do you think it's ever going to be taken seriously?


    laico   The Answer is NO..a BiiiG NO...

    but why worry about that answer? If you carefully read Hassan Radwan what all he is saying is  
    Quote
    "LOOK IN TO ISLAMIC SCRIPTURES .. READ THEM ..CRITICALLY THINK ABOUT IT..    I am a Muslim. I believe Quran is divine revelation..  but I don't know what is this divine thing is"  Cry Cry :'      

      that is what he is saying..   Again please read him carefully

    Quote
    What is being a Muslim?

     For me it is not only someone who believers in the divine authorship of the Quran and Mohammed being a prophet of God

    But in my case someone who believes the "divine" inspired the Quran - but did not author it - Mohammed authored it. Albeit inspired as men and women are inspired and driven by the "force" or "forces" that be - and that one can call God.

    Therefore it is not infallible and can sometimes just be plain "wrong"!


    Now here are the problems

    Quote
    I spun into a deep depression when I lost my faith. Holding onto this idea of there being "something" greater than this material existence makes me feel more comfortable. As does sharing my views with family, friends and other Muslims as a "Muslim" myself - rather than an Ex-Muslim.

    That is a serious problem for many GOOD PEOPLE., one has to find ways.. sometimes other folks can help and some times they have to find way by  themselves ways to get over that...  
    Quote
    They are just labels and I am the same guy I have always been - but I don't see why I should have to excommunicate myself (as HM wonderfully said) just because I hold views traditionalists would view as "outside" Islam. Screw them! I was born and raised a Muslim - it's my religion as much as theirs and I'll define it as I wish.

     See that that is Hassan Radwan's belief.   You see those words.. to do that and to change a religious society to your own religious belief .,  one has to be leader.,  one has to fight it out and fighting the faith  Islam is not an easy task .

    In other words., At the end of the tunnel , the light I see out of Hassan Radwan's faith is same as those off shoots of Islamic faiths such as Mirza Husayn Ali Nuri's Baha’ism  or Ahmadiyya religious sect of  Mirza Ghulam Ahmad .  May be,.. may  be bit more modern than the old off shoots of Islam  as he is living in 21st century .. But.. but It is STILL A FAITH..

    So I would strongly suggest to Hassan Radwan .. To write some books such as ..

    "My Islam.. My Quran .. My Faith"  and next thing he need to  do is CONTEST ELECTIONS in England.. then people will take him seriously .. Other wise answer to your question is Biig Noooooooo    dear laico

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Will the "True Islam" Please Stand Up
     Reply #44 - July 10, 2015, 10:57 AM

    Don't be depressed Maxi Priest. My views haven't fundamentally changed. I stand by all my previous video and blogs. I just find I want to take a new approach that I believe will be a more fruitful in bringing about positive change. But I still support CEMB and ex-Muslims.

    Smiley


     Thanks Hassan, but you say you still stand by your videos, yet your videos destroy the Quran and it's implicit threatening and posturing, but you now call that 'divine inspiration' ? That seems quite a turn around.
  • Will the "True Islam" Please Stand Up
     Reply #45 - July 10, 2015, 01:35 PM

    This is why i mentioned that perhaps someone educated in Islamic theology might be able to help me here.

    As far as i am aware, all mainstream interpretations follow a literal interpretation of the same scriptures (except the Shias). Therefore, their interpretations as a whole are all fairly similar and they generally respect each other as being Muslims, despite slight differences in their methodology regarding interpretation.

    However, for someone like Hassan or Majid or any other to come along and say to Muslims.

    'Hey guys, i have a liberal/modern interpretation of Islam that is just as valid as any other, start by throwing your Qurans in the bin because they are all useless'

    Do you think it's ever going to be taken seriously?


    Perhaps you could replace the word “mainstream” with dominant. Throughout Islamic history, there have been countless interpretations of Islam and scripture that have varied quite widely from one another. The Mu’tazilah specifically come to mind since they, as a matter of principle, explicitly incorporated human logic into interpretation of the Qur’an. They also considered the Qur’an to be created as opposed to the eternal, verbatim, uncreated word of God. The Mu’tazilah considered themselves Muslims – true Muslims, even – and enjoyed prominence for a moment in Islamic history. It is only because their views were widely stamped out by other schools that we now only view them in terms of being heretical. (Of course, there are plenty of things I’d also disagree with as it relates to Mu’tazilite thought. I mention them only to illustrate that Islam has not always been restricted to what we call “mainstream” today.)
  • Will the "True Islam" Please Stand Up
     Reply #46 - July 10, 2015, 01:39 PM



     Thanks Hassan, but you say you still stand by your videos, yet your videos destroy the Quran and it's implicit threatening and posturing, but you now call that 'divine inspiration' ? That seems quite a turn around.


    More broadly, I think you may be misinterpreting what Hassan means when he speaks about “divine inspiration.” This is likely because of how limited the mainstream Islamic ideas of God have become.

    Despite how much they might protest, anthropomorphization of the divine seems to have become the norm amongst Muslims. The mainstream Islamic god is a REMARKABLY human character. He is incredibly humanlike - limited, petty, and small. That is how so many Muslims view god: nitpicking over this or that, getting angry over this or that, out of touch with his creation, misunderstanding science, forbidding logic, hating progress. The irony is that they also say that their god is “akbar” and “high above all which they ascribe to him.” Yet, so many Muslims continue to limit him into this tiny, 7th century box.

    Though if God truly can be described in such awesome terms as “the first, the last, the hidden, the apparent, and having none like unto him,” then I personally think that it would be something far beyond what we as humans would be able to fathom. Its very nature would be beyond our scope of understanding, perhaps best described as this abstract “something” that Hassan speaks of.

    And I don’t think that this is merely an exercise in “changing the goal posts” or logical gymnastics; it is what would be a natural next step as human beings with such an inclination to believe broaden their understanding of the universe. I’m personally attracted at times to aspects of the Sikh concept of God, though even then I’d have no way of claiming to grasp such a being, and even those concepts are limited by human understandings.

    I’d almost want to nix the word “god” entirely, since it is so attached to the celestial tyrant we’d imagine judging us from above his throne. It would be a fuzzy idea. Any attempt to describe this “something” would inevitably miss the mark.

    If this “something” inspires, then we receive that inspiration in a very human way, a very familiar way, a way that could only be compatible with our limited, human understandings and abilities. I think this is what Hassan is talking about when he says he can believe Muhammad was inspired to recite the Qur’an. It’s inspiration in a human sense, derived from whatever there may be out there to inspire us – beautiful at times and horrific at others.  

    Or, it could all just be a load of nonsense with no reasonable explanation – wallah ‘alam.  Smiley
  • Will the "True Islam" Please Stand Up
     Reply #47 - July 10, 2015, 02:11 PM

    What HM said ^  Afro

    You read me perfectly HM - thanks.

    Quote
    Maxi Priest "your videos destroy the Quran and it's implicit threatening and posturing, but you now call that 'divine inspiration' ? That seems quite a turn around.


    My videos destroy the idea that the Qur'an is the perfect word of god.

    I have always been agnostic and believed in "something" greater - see my posts right from the start.

    I believe we are all inspired by this 'something' - call it what you will - nature, life, sunshine, butterflies the universe - to do stuff and create stuff - to write draw play guitar.

    But none of these works are perfect.

    And I STILL want to destroy and demolish the idea that any human work - though inspired - is perfect in any way.

    So no turn around at all. Just a slightly more nuanced approach to helping Muslims see the light.

    tbh I'm getting tired of explaining my position to people who don't get it. So this will be the last time I will. I have other things to do, sorry if that sounded a bit irritable  grin12
  • Will the "True Islam" Please Stand Up
     Reply #48 - July 10, 2015, 02:22 PM

    Happy_M... Happy_M..   We all know.,every one knows that wonderful Pharrell Williams song could be song in different ways  and danced in different ways..

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2MDReKsP3sQ
    There is a freedom in it.. So I read your post
     
    Perhaps you could replace the word “mainstream” with dominant. Throughout Islamic history, there have been countless interpretations of Islam and scripture that have varied quite widely from one another. The Mu’tazilah ...............

      
    what all you are saying there is.,   There is a  number game in those words " “mainstream” and  "dominant".. which one has larger number of followers??  We know there are Countless  sects in Islam but NOTHING QUESTIONS QURAN.  it may interpret differently but never questions it.   Our Hassan is actually questioning it. He is saying "IT IS NOT WORD OF GOD/ALLAH"...  there is a huge difference.  

    As far as Mu’tazilah  is concerned., It is a very old Persian song. In fact  that great man from subcontinent Sir Muhammad Iqbal  wrote a book around Mu’tazilahismThe Development of Metaphysics in Persia  .. please read the pdf file.,  And we also know there are 77 sects in Islam .,  

    And please realize they were all political with strong support form one ruler or other rulers( I mean all sects of Islam including Mu’tazilahism). So if we want popularize our "Hassan Radwanism" ., someone has to join in  politics win over the people and popularize "Radwanism"., otherwise the answer to  laico's question
    Do you think it's ever going to be taken seriously?  

      The Answer is NO.....a BiiiG NO...
     
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFzVL56qvoY

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Will the "True Islam" Please Stand Up
     Reply #49 - July 10, 2015, 02:53 PM

    We know there are Countless  sects in Islam but NOTHING QUESTIONS QURAN.  it may interpret differently but never questions it.   Our Hassan is actually questioning it. He is saying "IT IS NOT WORD OF GOD/ALLAH"...  there is a huge difference.


    Yeezy is correct on this point!!
  • Will the "True Islam" Please Stand Up
     Reply #50 - July 10, 2015, 03:01 PM


    tbh I'm getting tired of explaining my position to people who don't get it. So this will be the last time I will. I have other things to do, sorry if that sounded a bit irritable  grin12


    Well, I guess the only inevitable next step is to wage jihad against everyone who disagrees with you.  Tongue
  • Will the "True Islam" Please Stand Up
     Reply #51 - July 10, 2015, 08:00 PM

    More broadly, I think you may be misinterpreting what Hassan means when he speaks about “divine inspiration.” This is likely because of how limited the mainstream Islamic ideas of God have become.

    Despite how much they might protest, anthropomorphization of the divine seems to have become the norm amongst Muslims. The mainstream Islamic god is a REMARKABLY human character. He is incredibly humanlike - limited, petty, and small. That is how so many Muslims view god: nitpicking over this or that, getting angry over this or that, out of touch with his creation, misunderstanding science, forbidding logic, hating progress. The irony is that they also say that their god is “akbar” and “high above all which they ascribe to him.” Yet, so many Muslims continue to limit him into this tiny, 7th century box.

    Though if God truly can be described in such awesome terms as “the first, the last, the hidden, the apparent, and having none like unto him,” then I personally think that it would be something far beyond what we as humans would be able to fathom. Its very nature would be beyond our scope of understanding, perhaps best described as this abstract “something” that Hassan speaks of.

    And I don’t think that this is merely an exercise in “changing the goal posts” or logical gymnastics; it is what would be a natural next step as human beings with such an inclination to believe broaden their understanding of the universe. I’m personally attracted at times to aspects of the Sikh concept of God, though even then I’d have no way of claiming to grasp such a being, and even those concepts are limited by human understandings.

    I’d almost want to nix the word “god” entirely, since it is so attached to the celestial tyrant we’d imagine judging us from above his throne. It would be a fuzzy idea. Any attempt to describe this “something” would inevitably miss the mark.

    If this “something” inspires, then we receive that inspiration in a very human way, a very familiar way, a way that could only be compatible with our limited, human understandings and abilities. I think this is what Hassan is talking about when he says he can believe Muhammad was inspired to recite the Qur’an. It’s inspiration in a human sense, derived from whatever there may be out there to inspire us – beautiful at times and horrific at others.  

    Or, it could all just be a load of nonsense with no reasonable explanation – wallah ‘alam.  Smiley



    Now THIS is truly agnostic. Smiley

    One only acquires wisdom when one sets the heart and mind open to new ideas.

    Chat: http://client01.chat.mibbit.com/#ex-muslims
  • Will the "True Islam" Please Stand Up
     Reply #52 - July 10, 2015, 08:54 PM

    My videos destroy the idea that the Qur'an is the perfect word of god.


    One thing I always liked, for example, was your correctly placed sarcasm at how it is highly suspicious that God seems to think the world is only the middle east (and other things of that nature) - that isn't just destroying the idea that it is the perfect word of god, that is a valid remark on the dubious nature of religion's origin. Now you are saying that Mohammed was just flawed in his divine interpretation, hence the Quran is too, but then what about your previous view regarding the highly dubious origins of all the Abrahamic faiths. How do you square that? They were all just a bit flawed, all divine, but all made the same mistake when it came to notions of world size? The humour you once found at the obvious pulling of wool over eyes, you now respect? If Mohammed was just flawed in his interpretation, he was flawed in a most vulgar way with regards killing jews, christians, infidels and so on - what is their to respect and admire in someone who thinks like that? The reason for ppl's confusion is obvious, but you are saying you can't understand why. If you really wanted to help Muslims, and to help ex-muslims recover, you seem to be going the right way about doing neither, I am very sorry to say.
  • Will the "True Islam" Please Stand Up
     Reply #53 - July 10, 2015, 09:06 PM

    Now THIS is truly agnostic. Smiley


    Well, I'm not actively trying to be an agnostic. After way more thought than is probably healthy, I think I really am just agnostic. That is the term that describes me best.  Smiley
  • Will the "True Islam" Please Stand Up
     Reply #54 - July 10, 2015, 09:14 PM

    One thing I always liked, for example, was your correctly placed sarcasm at how it is highly suspicious that God seems to think the world is only the middle east (and other things of that nature) - that isn't just destroying the idea that it is the perfect word of god, that is a valid remark on the dubious nature of religion's origin. Now you are saying that Mohammed was just flawed in his divine interpretation, hence the Quran is too, but then what about your previous view regarding the highly dubious origins of all the Abrahamic faiths. How do you square that? They were all just a bit flawed, all divine, but all made the same mistake when it came to notions of world size? The humour you once found at the obvious pulling of wool over eyes, you now respect? If Mohammed was just flawed in his interpretation, he was flawed in a most vulgar way with regards killing jews, christians, infidels and so on - what is their to respect and admire in someone who thinks like that? The reason for ppl's confusion is obvious, but you are saying you can't understand why. If you really wanted to help Muslims, and to help ex-muslims recover, you seem to be going the right way about doing neither, I am very sorry to say.


    Might it be better if you understood it as, “Muhammad was inspired by his own ideas of the divine to recite the Qur’an”?
  • Will the "True Islam" Please Stand Up
     Reply #55 - July 10, 2015, 10:04 PM

    The reason for ppl's confusion is...


    You mean your confusion.

    Hmmm... I have a feeling I know who this "Maxi Priest" is.
  • Will the "True Islam" Please Stand Up
     Reply #56 - July 10, 2015, 10:24 PM

    If you really wanted to help Muslims, and to help ex-muslims recover, you seem to be going the right way about doing neither, I am very sorry to say.


    I humbly disagree. I think Mr Radwan's recent position is more effective in dealing with the core issue, than his previous one was. You can either tell muslims to stop believing, or you can tell them, this thing is broken, so lets fix it together, so we can all benefit from it. If I was as knowledgeable about Islam as some people on here, I would most probably have adapted a similar position.

    Ours is, in comparison, an easy position to take. To actually claim that you are a muslim, and stand your ground, while openly admit that you have your doubts, is a far more challenging position to hold.
  • Will the "True Islam" Please Stand Up
     Reply #57 - July 11, 2015, 01:48 AM

    Hassan, can I ask if you believe in the 'day of judgment'?  The reason I ask is that the Qur'an seems to treat being a "Muslim" as sort of an ecumenical concept for the idea that 'you submit to the plan of the one true God ... with his day of judgment and resurrection of the body, so be righteous and have faith."  Anybody who follows those basic beliefs seems to be a Qur'anic Muslim -- not somebody who believes all of the accumulations of later Islam.  At any rate, I am curious what your personal belief is on this subject, if you do not mind.
  • Will the "True Islam" Please Stand Up
     Reply #58 - July 11, 2015, 03:08 AM

    One thing I always liked, for example, was your correctly placed sarcasm at how it is highly suspicious that God seems to think the world is only the middle east (and other things of that nature) - that isn't just destroying the idea that it is the perfect word of god, that is a valid remark on the dubious nature of religion's origin. Now you are saying that Mohammed was just flawed in his divine interpretation, hence the Quran is too, but then what about your previous view regarding the highly dubious origins of all the Abrahamic faiths. How do you square that? They were all just a bit flawed, all divine, but all made the same mistake when it came to notions of world size? The humour you once found at the obvious pulling of wool over eyes, you now respect? If Mohammed was just flawed in his interpretation, he was flawed in a most vulgar way with regards killing jews, christians, infidels and so on - what is their to respect and admire in someone who thinks like that? The reason for ppl's confusion is obvious, but you are saying you can't understand why. If you really wanted to help Muslims, and to help ex-muslims recover, you seem to be going the right way about doing neither, I am very sorry to say.

    Good, interesting post, except for the last sentence.

    There are 1001 ways to skin a cat, most messy.
  • Will the "True Islam" Please Stand Up
     Reply #59 - July 11, 2015, 09:43 AM

    You can either tell muslims to stop believing, or you can tell them, this thing is broken, so lets fix it together, so we can all benefit from it.


    Isn't this just treating followers with soft gloves, like backwards kids at school - 'Oh, let them keep their beliefs if they want, as long as they don't harm anyone?' But of course, the harm continues. I don't see how we will all benefit from that. Wouldn't it be more honest if you called b/s when you smell it, and warn others to get real so they can move up a class and stop this silliness? You say it's 'broken', many, many others say it was never right. The problem with this view is, it is too apologetic to something completely undeserving of apology. Religion has got away with some revolting things over the years, shoring up the followers misplaced beliefs seems cruel (like encouraging a baby to believe there is a monster under the bed), whilst condemning their central belief that the Quran is the word of God, is also cruel and antagonistic/arrogant (telling them 'silly you, you got that well wrong, now listen to me because I'm clever!'). Why is t so important to stand on a soapbox and say 'Listen to me!' ?  If I was still a Muslim, I would say it was to appease the Nafs/ego - no matter what you have to say, be it 'Religion is wrong' or 'Religion is super', the only person benefitting is the person on the box, enjoying his/her 15 minutes, which is fine if they they like that kind of thing, but to say you are doing it to help others (particularly when the tune keeps changing) is misleading, quite possibly unintentionally. Are you a Muslim Roberto?

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