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 Topic: Findings of Critical Scholarship vis-a-vis the Traditional Islamic Understanding

 (Read 16881 times)
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  • Findings of Critical Scholarship vis-a-vis the Traditional Islamic Understanding
     Reply #120 - May 17, 2015, 06:17 PM

    moi
    Quote
    Maybe they did all come from different religions and had been for thousands of years - the Islamic usp was a proto ecumenism that got anyone to dress up in the same robes and go through the same rituals.  From a commercial perspective that is definitely the way to go!  

    Only later did it get formalised.  I understand Orthodox xianity at the time had a universal brotherhood all will be saved philosophy.  Maybe Islam picked up on the sin heresy from Augustine?

    Never heard that Orthodox christianity would include universal salvation at any point...are you referring to a particular sect or actual Orthodox Christianity.Also, what do you mean by
    Quote
    Maybe Islam picked up on the sin heresy from Augustine?

  • Findings of Critical Scholarship vis-a-vis the Traditional Islamic Understanding
     Reply #121 - May 17, 2015, 06:20 PM

    Quote
    The surviving structures, then, not only predate pottery, metallurgy, and the invention of writing or the wheel, they were built before the so-called Neolithic Revolution, i.e., the beginning of agriculture and animal husbandry around 9000 BCE. But the construction of Göbekli Tepe implies organization of an advanced order not hitherto associated with Paleolithic, PPNA, or PPNB societies. Archaeologists estimate that up to 500 persons were required to extract the heavy pillars from local quarries and move them 100–500 meters (330–1,640 ft) to the site


    Quote
    Schmidt's view is that Göbekli Tepe is a stone-age mountain sanctuary. Radiocarbon dating as well as comparative, stylistic analysis indicate that it is the oldest religious site yet discovered anywhere.[8][33] Schmidt believed that what he called this "cathedral on a hill" was a pilgrimage destination attracting worshippers up to 100 miles (160 km) distant. Butchered bones found in large numbers from local game such as deer, gazelle, pigs, and geese have been identified as refuse from food hunted and cooked or otherwise prepared for the congregants.[34]

    Schmidt considered Göbekli Tepe a central location for a cult of the dead and that the carved animals are there to protect the dead. Though no tombs or graves have been found so far, Schmidt believed that they remain to be discovered in niches located behind the sacred circles' walls


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Göbekli_Tepe

    I propose the kabba is also a very ancient pilgramage site upon which the religion of Islam was imposed, possibly much later than 600 odd.  It was therefore always a destination.  A priesthood to look after it would have developed, which was assimilated into Islam - I see Islam as an invasive species, possibly a takeover.

    Rewriting history is a given.  The stuff about treating all religions well are therefore fossils.

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Findings of Critical Scholarship vis-a-vis the Traditional Islamic Understanding
     Reply #122 - May 17, 2015, 06:22 PM

    Western xianity has so many heresies it is ridiculous, and they are very well hidden unless one looks!  No, it is mainstream Orthodoxy!  Sin was an import via Augustine and only infected the Western Church and possibly Islam.

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Findings of Critical Scholarship vis-a-vis the Traditional Islamic Understanding
     Reply #123 - May 17, 2015, 07:20 PM

    Maybe the origins of the hajj or pilgrimage can be found somewhere else, especially if there were more than one Ka'ba.


    My current theory is that its origins are actually in competition for Arab Christian pilgrimage in Palestine proper.  Secondarily, this was transplanted into the Hijaz.
  • Findings of Critical Scholarship vis-a-vis the Traditional Islamic Understanding
     Reply #124 - May 17, 2015, 07:45 PM

    Zaotor
    Quote
    My current theory is that its origins are actually in competition for Arab Christian pilgrimage in Palestine proper.  Secondarily, this was transplanted into the Hijaz.

    Do you mean that the Ka'ba used to be in Palestine, as I was refering to the Hajj which would include all the rituals that goes with it?Im thinking about rituals such as circumambulation of the Ka'ba for instance.
  • Findings of Critical Scholarship vis-a-vis the Traditional Islamic Understanding
     Reply #125 - May 17, 2015, 09:12 PM

    Muawiya as governor of Syria-Palestine 20-60 / 640-80 (ish) put up a big cube over the Temple Ruins. The pilgrim Arculf reported it to the Irish monk Adomnan who compiled a pilgrimage-guide from that account (Arculf sniffed it was crudely done).

    The ka'ba design seems to have been a common pre-Islamic Arab design for holy shrines.
  • Findings of Critical Scholarship vis-a-vis the Traditional Islamic Understanding
     Reply #126 - May 18, 2015, 03:45 AM

    is there any good sources about Najran !!! it seems that had a kaaba too.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_community_of_Najran


    "Sin was an import via Augustine and only infected the Western Church and possibly Islam"

    there is no such a thing as Sin in Islam, it is actually the opposite, life is good and had to be enjoyed ( in moderation though)
  • Findings of Critical Scholarship vis-a-vis the Traditional Islamic Understanding
     Reply #127 - May 18, 2015, 09:16 AM

    Why does doing haram stuff cause you to end up in hell? 

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Findings of Critical Scholarship vis-a-vis the Traditional Islamic Understanding
     Reply #128 - May 18, 2015, 09:24 AM

    http://www.oncedeliveredfaith.com/2014/07/05/original-sin/

    Quote
    When speaking about humanity from an Eastern Orthodox standpoint, one must consider the various doctrines of sin. In the doctrines of the Eastern Church, there is no concept of “original sin.” The East was largely unfazed by the Western innovation of original sin and the doctrines which followed, such as the Immaculate Conception, total depravity, the penal substitution atonement theory, etc. These doctrines all hold a base assumption that humans are born guilty, an assumption which Orthodoxy rejects. Here, I’ll write in very broad brushstrokes about the western perception of original sin and the origins thereof, along with how it affects the perception of humanity, then move to the Orthodox perception of sin and humanity and why I’ve come to agree with the Orthodox viewpoint. The opinions I express are my understanding of theological subjects, so I’ll do my best to accurately portray the views of the Orthodox Church and the other Churches whose doctrines I cover, but I do not speak on behalf of these Churches.

    St. Augustine and Original Sin


    Western doctrines of sin nature, from Roman Catholicism to Reformed theology to Arminian theology and the vast majority in between, state that all of humanity is collectively guilty for Adam’s sin in the Garden. Therefore, our nature when we are born is that of guilt – even the newborn child is guilty for a sin he did not commit. Humanity is guilty, broken and condemned.  St. Augustine was the father of the doctrine of original sin. In his writings against Pelagianism, he reacted strongly against Pelagius’ theory that mankind was entirely good and capable of salvation on its own (a view also rejected by Orthodoxy.) In his reaction against Pelagius, St. Augustine wrote that humanity exists in a state of condemnation, as inheritors of Adam’s sin. According to St. Augustine, each and every human is guilty; The guilt of Adam is passed down generationally through human seed to each human being. For St. Augustine, unbaptized children were undoubtedly doomed to an eternity of suffering. While most modern Christians would find this to be a difficult teaching with which to reconcile, these are the views of the father of the doctrine of original sin nonetheless.

    Augustinianism in the Roman Church

    The Western Church accepted Augustinianism as its stance from an early period, which altered the course of its theology, even to this day. One of the doctrines of the Catholic Church that is most controversial to both Protestants and Orthodox alike is based on the assumption of original sin: the Immaculate Conception. The Immaculate Conception rests upon the presupposition that man is inherently guilty, and therefore finds the need for Christ’s mother to be sinless in order that she might not pass sin guiltiness on to her Son. This doctrine, dogmatized in 1854 A.D. by Pope Pius IX lacks the patristic, apostolic, and biblical support needed for doctrines of the Orthodox Church and relies too heavily on extra-biblical sources for doctrines of protestant groups who profess sola scriptura.

    Original Sin in the Protestant Churches

    The vast majority of Protestantism has inherited the Catholic Church’s preference toward original sin. This is likely due to Protestantism’s origin springing directly from the Catholic Church, and/or a misguided assumption that original sin is implicitly biblical. Regardless, in matters of original sin, the apple didn’t fall far from the tree. Luther asserted that humanity is constantly in a state of sin from the moment of conception. Calvin took Augustinianism a step further; declaring that man was not only guilty, but depraved. Arminius reaffirms mankind’s inherent guiltiness. Charles Wesley, while influenced by Eastern theologians, formed his doctrines around an assumption of original sin. In his melding of Orthodox doctrine with an assumption of original sin, he pioneered a doctrine called sanctification, which is close to the Orthodox doctrine of  theosis, but ultimately different. Theosis is the restoration of one’s natural state into union with God, while sanctification is a divine act of creating a nature contradictory to the one with which we were born. I would view this as a misinterpretation of Psalm 50 (or Psalm 51, for the non-Septuagintals among us.) The Psalmist says “Create in me a clean heart O God and renew a right spirit within me.” An Eastern perspective would understand the renewal of a right spirit to be the restoration of the Psalmist’s nature and the clean heart being his desire and will for innocence and purity. A Weslyan perspective would likely be reversed.  The views of the reformers, while possessing an admirable unanimity toward original sin seems to have gone largely unquestioned. Most Protestants would oppose the fact that their doctrines regarding original sin are mostly carryovers from their Roman Catholic roots; however, I would assert this to be the case: Protestantism has retained a significant amount of assumptions and worldviews from the Roman Catholic Church, because every Protestant group can and must at some point trace their lineage back to its genesis being a schism (sometimes of a schism of a schism, etc.) from the Latin Church.
     
    Mankind’s Nature According to the Eastern Church

    As we have traced original sin from St. Augustine, to its acceptance in the Roman Catholic Church, to its carryover into Protestantism, let us now examine how the Eastern Orthodox Church has progressed without this same doctrine. Orthodoxy affirms a different understanding of anthropology than that of Western Christendom. Where Augustinians view mankind as guilty and sinful by nature, Orthodoxy views mankind as pure and innocent by nature. The common reaction to this runs along the lines of “But I’m not pure or innocent.” Fair enough. Me either. Let’s delve into why the Eastern Orthodox Church holds this view.

    Innocent by Nature

    Adam was sinless when he was created, evidenced by the picture painted of he and God walking and talking in the garden. This was man’s original state, that of perfection. When Adam disobeyed God, he introduced sin into a perfect world, causing this perfect world to cease to exist and introducing death (Romans 6:23.) This is understood to be the fall: the introduction of sin into the world and the origin of the grip of death upon those who live therein. Therefore, the fall takes on a very different meaning in Eastern theology. It no longer represents the destruction of mankind’s purity, but instead the destruction of the purity of the world. After Adam’s sin, mankind is subjected to death: physical and spiritual. Our bodies die in a physical sense, and we suffer a chasm between ourselves and God whenever we sin, understood to be spiritual death. Orthodoxy says that purity is man’s natural state, not depravity; that we are sinful beings not by nature, but by circumstance. The presence of evil is sometimes apparent, and Orthodoxy acknowledges this. However, instead of stating that the wickedness of this life is reflective of man’s inner state, Orthodoxy would affirm that we are subject to a fallen world penetrated by death and evil. Therefore, it is our duty and calling to subjugate evil to the victory of Christ. And because Orthodoxy doesn’t affirm inherent wickedness in man, it is understood that whenever we sin, it is not because we have no choice in the matter, but rather because we have succumbed to the evil that lurks around us. While mankind is born pure and innocent, humans must exist in the fallen world, and are therefore subjected to a propensity toward sin. This is again, a result of the nature of the world around them, not their own. So in this view, mankind is not predestined to live separated from God; mankind chooses to separate themselves from God whenever they choose to sin. This understanding is not always preferable to all, mostly because it takes away the get-out-of-jail-free card: “I’m just a human,” or “A sinful soul is supposed to sin,” or “Sin is natural, why fight it?” To the Orthodox Christian, guilt is not laid upon the shoulders of his or her ancestors, but upon the heart of each person who chooses to betray their nature by sin.

    The Place of Christ in an Orthodox Understanding

    So where does Christ play into this? If He doesn’t take our place in guiltiness, what did He do? To the Orthodox, Christ’s death was not a free pass into Heaven, but the destruction of the bond of death upon humanity. By His own death, Christ trampled down the physical and spiritual death to which we were all subject. He destroyed the stranglehold of death on all of humanity by Himself being loosed from the bonds of death. The destruction of death is applicable to us in our salvation because it provides for us a way to attain unity with God. We reach out to God, in hopes of uniting ourselves with Him, a process called theosis. We aspire that our lives, our wills, our desires, our character, and everything that we are will be united into the essence of God’s being. This process of theosis is effected as humans come to be united once again with their Creator, through relationship with the Trinity, through the partaking of the sacraments, through the participation in a life of selflessness and self-giving, and through the process to which St. Paul exhorts us, that we may become “partakers of the divine nature” (2 Pet. 1:4.)  Man is restored to the purity with which he was born and enters into union with God, through the grace of the Lord, Jesus Christ to the love of God the Father by the communion of the Holy Spirit (2 Cor. 13:14.) The Orthodox Christian believes that he works out his salvation with fear and trembling (Phil 2:12) and that he walks out his baptism daily. This process of theosis is just that, a process, in which we are transformed into the likeness of God as St. Paul says in 2 Cor 3:18: “But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord.” The Eastern Church views John 17:22-23 as a model of soteriology. “And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.” The Trinity invites humanity into unity with the Divine Essence, through Jesus Christ.

    The Resurrection: Christ’s and Ours

    The icon of the Resurrection provides a wonderful visual didactic tool. Featured both at the top of the article and to the right, it boldly portrays Christ being loosed from the bonds of death below Him, drawing Adam and Eve out of their tombs: tombs of physical and spiritual death. He stands on the gates of Hades, which he assures Peter will not prevail against the Church in Matt. 16:18, as they are formed in the shape of a cross, the instrument Christ used to defeat death. The icon of the Resurrection teaches us that Christ’s death on the Cross provides us with a way out of our death. In the icon, Christ pulls Adam and Eve by the wrist, showing that humanity is helpless to defeat death on its own; we could not defeat death on our own, Christ truly delivered us from its grip. If we allow ourselves to be pulled out of our spiritual tombs by the hand of Christ, we will walk in relational intimacy with our Creator and will defy our own death at our resurrection upon Christ’s return.

    Was Jesus Sinful?

    Perhaps the most compelling argument for the Eastern view of anthropology is one of the simplest. It can be asked as follows: Do humans possess original sin? If yes, then did Jesus Christ possess original sin? If He did not, then how does He truly relate to humanity? The majority of churches will affirm that Christ’s salvation relates to us because He was fully human and faced every struggle that we do. However, if he had no original sin, this is not the case. It’s dangerous to say that Christ possessed original sin, because He who takes upon His shoulders the sin of the world must be entirely sinless in order to effect salvation for all. This was the line of reasoning that led me to agree with Eastern view. If original sin rested on the soul of our Savior, his death was not sufficient. If he did not possess original sin, he cannot relate to me in my state of original sin. If, however, mankind is innocent and pure by nature, but chooses to sin as a result of human weakness, and Christ was born innocent and pure by nature, but lived a perfect and Godly life, then He is able to bear the sins of the world, while relating to humanity.
     


    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Findings of Critical Scholarship vis-a-vis the Traditional Islamic Understanding
     Reply #129 - May 18, 2015, 10:29 AM

    Why does doing haram stuff cause you to end up in hell? 


    sorry my mistake, i meant there is no concept of "original sin", we have instead "Fitra"

    "Fitra, or fitrah (Arabic: فطرة / ALA-LC: fiṭrah), is an Arabic word that has no exact English equivalent although it has been translated as 'primordial human nature',[1] and as "instinct" or common sense ('urf).[2] It has also been suggested [3] that a close approximation, in terms of Western philosophy, is Kant's concept of 'ought'.[4] In a mystical context, it can connote intuition or insight and is similar to the Calvinist term Sensus divinitatis. "
  • Findings of Critical Scholarship vis-a-vis the Traditional Islamic Understanding
     Reply #130 - May 18, 2015, 10:59 AM

    Has anyone studied Islamic theology and which of the various xian sects it took its ideas of sin from?  It feels like Islam is a marinade of several xian heresies and orthodoxies!

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Findings of Critical Scholarship vis-a-vis the Traditional Islamic Understanding
     Reply #131 - May 18, 2015, 11:10 AM

    Quote
    It’s an amazing story, one only now being told. More than 1,300 years ago, a Persian Christian monk named Aleben traveled 3,000 miles along the ancient caravan route known as the Silk Road all the way to China, carrying precious copies of the New Testament writings (probably in Syriac). Aleben and his fellow Christian monks stopped in the Chinese city of Chang-au (Xian), where, under the protection of the Tang Dynasty Emperor Taizong, he founded a CHristian monastery and began the arduous task of translating the Christian texts into Chinese. It was the year A.D. 635. When the Italian explorer Marco Polo arrived in China nearly 600 years later, he was astonished to discover that a tiny Christian community had existed there for centuries.
     
    We know about this amazing Christian evangelist and his genial Chinese hosts because in 1623 graver diggers working outside of Xian dug up a stele weighing two tons and carved with 2,000 Chinese characters. Now known as the Monument Stele and residing in a museum in Xian, It was created in A.D. 781 and tells the tale Aleben and what the Chinese writers called “the Luminous Religion” because it taught of light. Here is what the Stele proclaimed:

    The Emperor Taizong was a champion of culture. He created prosperity and encouraged illustrious sages to bestow their wisdom on the people. There was a saint of great virtue named Aleben, who came from the Qin Empire carrying the true scriptures. He had read the azure clouds and divined that he should journey to the East. Along the way, Aleben avoided danger and calamity by observing the rhythm of the wind.

    In the ninth year of the Zhenguan reign [A.D. 635], Aleben reaching Chang-an [Zian]. The Emperor sent his minister, Duke Xuanling, together with a contingent of the palace guard, to the western outskirts to accompany Aleben to the palace.
    The translation work on his scriptures took place in the Imperial Library and the Emperor studied them in his Private Chambers. After the Emperor became familiar with the True Teachings, he issued a decree and ordered that it be propagated…

    … the Emperor issued a proclamation, saying:

    “We have studied these scriptures and found them otherworldly, profound and full of mystery.
    We found their words lucid and direct.
    We have contemplated the birth and growth of the tradition from which these teachings sprang.
    These teachings will save all creatures and benefit mankind, and it is on ly proper that they be practiced throughout the world.”

    Following the Emperor’s orders, the Greater Qin Monastery was built in the I-ning section of the Capital. Twenty-one ordained monks of the Luminous Religion were allowed to live there…

    The Emperor Gaozong [A.D. 650-683] reverently continued the tradition of his ancestor and enhanced the Luminous Religion by building temples in every province. He bestowed honors upon Aleben, declaring him the Great Dharma Lord of the Empire.

    The Luminous Religion spread throughout all ten provinces, the Empire prospered and peace prevailed. Temples were built in 100 cities and countless families received the blessings of the Luminous Religion.

    Christianity flourished in China for at least two hundred years. But then, around A.D. 850, Chinese leaders began a purge of foreign religions, including Buddhism. Buddhist temples were destroyed and, according to one source, more than 3,000 monks of the “Luminious Religion” were ordered to return to lay life.

    For more than 1,300 years, scholars and missionaries have searched for the lost scriptures that Aleben translated into Chinese — and for his monastery. A breakthrough finally occurred in the late 1880s when a lonely Taoist monk named Wang Yuanlu discovered 50,000 lost Chinese manuscripts hidden away in more than 500 caves in Dunhuang. Amazingly enough, it wasn’t until about a decade ago, in 1998, that the full story was told. The Dunhuang manuscripts are sort of the Dead Sea Scrolls of ancient China, a cache of long-buried treasures that reveal a tremendous amount about life in ancient China — including the strange story of how the “Luminous Religion” took root there and blended with Taoist and Confucian elements to create a uniquely Chinese form of Christianity. The discovery of these ancient Chinese texts by western scholars — and their dissemination to museums in France and Britain — along with the many decades it took to get them translated and published — very much resembles the story of the Dead Sea Scrolls.

    Of the 50,000 manuscripts discovered at Dunhuang, only eight comprise what are now known as the Jesus Sutras. Nevertheless, they clearly show Christian influence. They paraphrase passages from the New Testament and thus provide direct evidence that the ancient Chinese writers of these texts clearly knew the Gospel accounts:


    http://christianyogamagazine.com/meditation/lost-jesus-sutras-reveal-ancient-chinese-christianity/

    To properly understand what was going on in the 600's we must look carefully at what else was happening and asking are they related?  I propose they are directly linked!

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Findings of Critical Scholarship vis-a-vis the Traditional Islamic Understanding
     Reply #132 - May 18, 2015, 11:14 AM

    Quote
    As the first woman caused the lies of humanity, so it was women who first told the truth about what had happened, to show all that the Messiah forgave women and wished them to be treated properly in the future. (Ch 5:32)


    The early Chinese Church taught that not only feminine nature, but all human nature is in harmony with Nature itself. The Stone Sutra explains that, as in Daoist philosophy, the whole of creation is intrinsically good. Only when humans allow the goodness that is their birthright to be invaded by foolishness, greed, envy and pride do they become inharmonious with the rest of creation. “Original sin”—the doctrine that “in Adam’s fall/ we sinned all”—is not mentioned.


    Sino-Syriac Inscription courtesy Kirschner Museum at Stanford Correspondence Project
    “These Teachings are Inexhaustible”

    Instead of a viewpoint that sees all of humanity laboring under a curse, the early Chinese Church found much in Daoist teachings that reflected its more loving beliefs.


    All of you should chant this day and night,
    Because it brings back clear seeing,
    And each of you will return to your own original nature,
    Your ultimately true beingness,
    Free from all falsehood and illusion.
    And you will see these teachings are inexhaustible.

    Anyone, even if they only have a little love
    Can walk the Bright Path, and they will suffer no harm.
    This is the way that leads to Peace and Happiness.
    And they can come to this even from the darkest of darks.

    If you really follow the Sutras, imagine how easy this could be!


    “Following the Sutras,” in Seventh-Century China, meant opening to the possibilities exemplified by Jesus. It meant peeling off layers of ignorance and greed to reveal the glory that is our truth, not crushing any inherited wickedness. 


    http://www.sevenpillarshouse.org/article/the_jesus_sutras_an_ancient_message_for_a_post_modernist_future/

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Findings of Critical Scholarship vis-a-vis the Traditional Islamic Understanding
     Reply #133 - May 18, 2015, 01:54 PM

    Interesting.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Findings of Critical Scholarship vis-a-vis the Traditional Islamic Understanding
     Reply #134 - May 18, 2015, 07:16 PM

    I found Khadiga mentioned in Theophanes's Byzantine chronicle for AM 6122 (Turtledove translation). There's been lots of chatter lately that Theophanes relied here on Trajan the Patrician, who had possibly got his data about Islam during the reign of al-Walid I before Sulayman's invasion. Warren Treadgold seems to be the main driver of this notion.

    I did my own translation of a derivative source, Simeon the Logothete, here:
    https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B4-3UDjnJ4ybS2ZXa3J5R2I5SDg/

    (Warning - I'm tempted to say, trigger warning - the discussion after the good part is an unfinished and chaotic mess. But the translation itself is as accurate as I could make it.)


    You translated that yourself? From Attic?

    How many languages can you read?
  • Findings of Critical Scholarship vis-a-vis the Traditional Islamic Understanding
     Reply #135 - May 18, 2015, 07:20 PM

    is there any good sources about Najran !!! it seems that had a kaaba too.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_community_of_Najran


    There is a hadith that says that Muhammad had his army destroy a Kaaba in Yemen at a place called Dhul Khalassa. It seems like there were various Kaabas dotted around the region.
  • Findings of Critical Scholarship vis-a-vis the Traditional Islamic Understanding
     Reply #136 - May 18, 2015, 11:04 PM

    You translated that yourself? From Attic?

    Byzantine koine. It's a little easier than Attic.

    Also I had the help of the Latin translation, so I could flip back and forth if my Greek was weak in one place. Not to mention that Simeon parallels Theophanes so hard I could go to Turtledove's English translation for help with a lot of it. Lastly, Google Translate helped for the Latin.

    I said pretty much just that in the introduction. I figured it doesn't quite count as cheating if you tell everyone up front, hey, I intend to cheat like a weasel running for mayor :^)
  • Findings of Critical Scholarship vis-a-vis the Traditional Islamic Understanding
     Reply #137 - May 19, 2015, 12:56 AM

    Very cool Zimriel, do you read any Semitic languages too?

    I remember reading that Byzantine scholars wrote in Attic and the Koine was only for the common folk, or maybe the reality was that the scholars just wrote in a version of Koine that was a little closer to Attic?

    I did not know much about you until today, I am very keen on reading your books. The one about the Quran looks really interesting.

    Do you work in academia professionally?
  • Findings of Critical Scholarship vis-a-vis the Traditional Islamic Understanding
     Reply #138 - May 19, 2015, 01:41 AM

    Tonyt: From what I saw in Simeon, it read like blah Greek, like what I had in school reading the Gospel of John. It wasn't nearly on the level of Plato (which we also had in school).

    I did however notice the occasional Latin loanword, including vulgar Latin loans like καβαλλαρικοi "cavaliers" (ed. Wahlgren, 169). Real Greek has its own words for horseman, based on "hippos". Real Latin should have a word more like "equestrian" as in, "equus". The "cavalry" originates from the Gaulish word for a horse... one fit for the glue factory. Hey, military humour! Anyway I figured that the Greek here was standard for Byzantine history texts drawn out for students in Constantinople. I could be wrong...

    I don't work in academia. At the time I got good marks in, uh, Byzantine history (and mediaeval Latin) but it turns out that a job in computers pays more. Whaddaya know? The Arabic came later when I took a class in it after I graduated. Syriac is something I'm trying to teach myself now.
  • Findings of Critical Scholarship vis-a-vis the Traditional Islamic Understanding
     Reply #139 - May 24, 2015, 01:20 PM

    Do dogs live in the desert?Are there dogs in the Arabian peninsula? Consdering that the hadith mention dogs in Medina, it would seem that way.
  • Findings of Critical Scholarship vis-a-vis the Traditional Islamic Understanding
     Reply #140 - May 24, 2015, 01:21 PM

    Im referring to dogs in the wild.
  • Findings of Critical Scholarship vis-a-vis the Traditional Islamic Understanding
     Reply #141 - June 27, 2015, 12:31 AM

    Post by mistake.

    إطلب العلم ولو في الصين

    Es sitzt keine Krone so fest und so hoch,
    Der mutige Springer erreicht sie doch.

    I don't give a fuck about your war, or your President.
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