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Theme Changer

 Topic: How Ecumenical Was Early Islam?

 (Read 6137 times)
  • 1« Previous thread | Next thread »
  • How Ecumenical Was Early Islam?
     OP - May 13, 2015, 02:59 PM

    excellent Lecture by Donner, Actually he is much more revisionist than what  people like to think about him

    https://vimeo.com/47187912

  • How Ecumenical Was Early Islam?
     Reply #1 - May 13, 2015, 03:31 PM

    excellent Lecture by Donner, Actually he is much more revisionist than what  people like to think about him

    https://vimeo.com/47187912


    Juice ..Masonic juice

    Quote
    ...........Fred Donner, a signer of collective denunciations of Israel, and for years a "scholar of Islam" who loyally aceepted the Received Version of Islam, has come to realize that he's missed the boat, missed all kinds of boats, and I suspect it was the work of Christoph Luxenberg, which Donner has most reluctantly and belatedly begun to take note of, even attending two conference held at Notre Dame recently, the first devoted entirely to the work of Luxenberg, the second to Luxenberg and others) that led him to conclude that, tiens, he really didn't have to accept Islam the way Muslims accept it, didn't have to mimic a Muslim, could in fact actually discuss early Islam as a non-Muslim Western scholar should discuss it, as something quite different from what Muslims insist it was. The Higher Criticism is not just for Judaism and Christianity any more. Donner may have felt at his back the winds of change, and he wanted somehow to make it seem as if he too, Fred Donner, could be considered a seriousl scholar of early Islam. Of course, nothiing like what Christoph Luxenberg argues for would come from Fred Donner, but even to discuss the subject of "early Islam" is to offend many, even most, Muslims...........


    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • How Ecumenical Was Early Islam?
     Reply #2 - May 13, 2015, 03:48 PM

    yeezevee

    please can you comment on the lecture itself, please no fucking politics, and ad hominem attacks
  • How Ecumenical Was Early Islam?
     Reply #3 - May 13, 2015, 04:02 PM

     Might as well ask the wind not to blow.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • How Ecumenical Was Early Islam?
     Reply #4 - May 13, 2015, 04:24 PM

    yeezevee

    please can you comment on the lecture itself, please no fucking politics, and ad hominem attacks

    hatoush.,  Ha! Toush.,  we must realize that  origins of organized religions is nothing but fucking politics.. The attacks of organized religions on humanity  with their silly books as word of some voodoo doll is nothing but ad hominem attacks on human race..

    I am not interested watching 2hrs video hatoush  but I can read pdf file.  So what does dr.  Donner wants  hatoush ?? everyone to follow his rules?

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • How Ecumenical Was Early Islam?
     Reply #5 - May 13, 2015, 05:48 PM

    Let me add some Donner here....



    boy piercing eyes..   looks like Modern Muhammad...

    Quote
    Islam's beginnings_Fred M. Donner:

    Mohammed's early movement was a surprisingly big tent, says historian Fred M. Donner...

    The first followers of Christ didn’t consider themselves ’’Christians’’; they were Jews who believed that a fellow Jew named Jesus Christ was the long-awaited messiah. It took centuries for Christianity to evolve and solidify as a distinct faith with its own doctrine and institutions.

    In ’’Muhammad and the Believers: At the Origins of Islam,’’ University of Chicago historian Fred M. Donner wants to provide a similar back story for Islam — a religion which, in the popular imagination, sprang wholly formed from the seventh-century sands of Arabia. Mohammed preached at the juncture of the Roman and Sassanian empires, winning support from Christians, Jews, Zoroastrians, and various deist polytheists. According to Donner, Mohammed built a movement of devout spiritualists from many faiths who shared a few core beliefs: God was one, the end of the world was near, and the truly religious had to live exemplary lives rather than merely pay lip service to God’s laws. It was only a century after Mohammed founded his ’’community of believers” and launched the great Islamic conquest that his followers started to define their beliefs as a distinct religious faith.

    Devout Muslims — who model their lives directly on the mores of the Prophet and his companions — will be surprised to read that Mohammed welcomed Christians and Jews into his monotheistic movement. In fact, Donner suggests, the entire narrative of Islamic conquest misinterprets the ecumenical nature of the early believers. Mohammed, it appears, didn’t require his followers to renounce their religion; early Islam, in this read, was more a revival of existing faiths than a conversion.

    Donner spent decades studying Arabian nomads and the early Islamic texts before tackling Islam’s early intellectual history. Among his many innovations are to connect Mohammed’s movement to Christian, Jewish, and nomadic ideas, and to explain why such an enormous swath of the known world fell so quickly under the sway of Mohammed’s successors — because, Donner argues, they didn’t have to convert to a new religion, only to affirm the piety demanded by an inclusive if zealous community of believers. He portrays Mohammed’s early believers as evangelical activists, swimming against a tide of casual religious practice. Donner intends his portrayal to conclusively counter a popular argument among some Western scholars who describe early Islam as a primarily economic and political movement that deployed the new religion as a banner of convenience.

    An even-keeled academic, Donner wants to stay as far away as possible from anything that smacks of a political crusade. But his critical historical assessment of the life of the Prophet Mohammed makes bold arguments that are sure to anger some Muslims, while also denying comfort to those anti-Muslim pamphleteers whose tracts suggest that Islam isn’t a real religion. Ideas spoke with Donner by phone ..

    IDEAS: How did you get interested in this subject?

    DONNER: It was an accident. I started off in college doing sciences. I thought, after college I want to travel and I want to learn languages. If I do Mesopotamian archaeology, I’ll get to travel and use languages. That drew me into the Near Eastern studies realm.

    I gravitated toward early Islam because I got interested in a question of social history. The expansion of early Islam and the Islamic conquests were one of the few episodes in modern times in which pastoral nomads played a role and about which we have documentary evidence.

    IDEAS: What did you focus on initially?

    DONNER: The early Islamic conquests. I was interested in the relationship between pastoral groups and the expansion movement. It was a state expansion, in my view, and not just a spilling out of people. The nomads were tightly controlled by the elite, the settled people, who used them for the purpose of expanding the state. The pastoralists became the cannon fodder that allowed the state to expand. That got me into early Islam.

    Once I got into early Islam I had to confront the question of the sources. I spent 25 years studying the sources. I went into this whole question of source criticism. I also got into a broader question of intellectual history, of what was this movement was when it started, really a history of religious ideas. I bumbled from one interesting topic to another all in the same historical context.

    IDEAS: There isn’t much public discussion of the historicity of Mohammed and the Koran in the Islamic world. To what extent is this a concern with embracing the ideas, and to what extent is it reluctance to engage in a public discussion?

    DONNER: There may be a lot of Muslims willing to entertain these ideas in private, but they don’t want to go on record in public. There are plenty of examples, like the Egyptian who wrote the book about the style of the Koran and was hounded out of the country as an apostate. There are other intellectuals who feel they may espouse ideas that are not in accord with traditional dogmas and are aware that they might better keep those ideas to themselves.

    IDEAS: Are your ideas particularly threatening to literalists because you question the Islamic narrative without attacking the faith?

    DONNER: It stays within the framework of the Prophet’s narrative. What I really suggest has to be revisited is the notion that at the very beginning this community was hard and fast set as a religious community. It could include Jews and Christians. They were monotheists who saw themselves as people trying to live in accordance with God’s rules and law. In that sense they were all believers, and they could make common cause with them. Only 75 or 100 years later did they shake out as a separate religion.

    IDEAS: When did Muslims start distinguishing themselves from other people of the book, Jews and Christians?

    DONNER: Where the divorce takes place — that’s an interesting question, because we have always viewed the Muslims as separate people. My sense is that this is beginning 60 to 75 years after the death of the Prophet, in the seventh century. You might have quite a lag between official change and popular change. We don’t really understand this change or transformation.

    IDEAS: How important were apocalyptic beliefs for the early believers?

    DONNER: It plays a recurrent role in all faiths that have an apocalyptic component, as does Christianity in the United States, where you see people carrying around signs. You see periodic upwellings of this sentiment. The component that is problematic is whether Mohammed was preaching a kind of end time coming soon. My sense is that he did think the end was coming soon. Later Muslims have some problems with this, so there’s a tendency of early believers to paper this over. Christianity went through the same problem.

    IDEAS: Will your book be translated into Arabic?

    DONNER: One can hope, but I have no idea. In Beirut, you can get almost anything published.

    Thanassis Cambanis’s book, ”A Privilege to Die: Inside Hezbollah’s Legions and Their Endless War With Israel,” will be published by Free Press in September. He is a New Ideas Fund fellow, teaches at Columbia University, and has written about the Middle East since 2003.


    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • How Ecumenical Was Early Islam?
     Reply #6 - May 13, 2015, 06:22 PM

    That quote reads as if he has not read shoemaker!

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • How Ecumenical Was Early Islam?
     Reply #7 - May 13, 2015, 06:24 PM

    Or Holland or Vidal.

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • How Ecumenical Was Early Islam?
     Reply #8 - May 13, 2015, 06:38 PM

    The quote is from 2010.  Shoemaker's book came out in 2011, so he couldn't have read it before making those comments.

    There is a lot to like about Donner's views, but I think he likely exaggerates the ecumenical nature of Mohammed's movement.  Great footnote from Dye's new paper that discusses the issue at length:

    "However, I do not share Donner's view of the mu’minūn as an ecumenical movement – and since I often speak of “texts of convergence," maybe a few remarks are appropriate. The first one concerns the formation of religious identity. The making of any religious identity usually undergoes a threefold process aptly described by Carlos Segovia: “1) unclear dissemination of more or less vague identity markers against a brewing background of common ideas and practices, 2) re-dissemination [GD: I would add re-semantization] of such markers along new ad hoc but still fuzzy lines or axes of crystallisation and 3) the final promotion and consolidation of these. In short what usually begins as a juxtaposed set of indeterminate flows, gradually transforms into an agglomeration of interdependent clusters before narrowing into a few well-defined realms, be they ideas, communities, texts or practices” (Segovia (forthcoming 2015)). Such a process is well-known in Jewish and Christian studies, and there is no reason to think it could not be relevant in Early Islamic studies, even if there is in this last case another parameter – an already implemented dichotomy between conquistadores and conquistados. However, this dichotomy does not imply that the confessional identity of the conquerors was clearly established right from the beginning. My second point is that Donner’s view of the movement of the mu’minūn as ecumenical raises two problems. First, the notion of ecumenism can be misleading. It seems it presupposes religious identities which are already clear and well defined. For sure, we know that the movement of the conquerors was joined by Christians or Jews, and there are texts of convergence in the Qur’ān, with Christians, and to a much lesser extent, with Jews. But all this seems related to phase 1) of a religious identity building process, whereas ecumenism might easily be understood as an attempt to overcome or allay divisions or tensions which occur in phase 3). Second, there are, in the Qur’ān, Christian and pro-Christian passages, but also anti-Christian polemics (and even more anti-Jewish polemics, which are in general pro-Christian): this does not agree either with the idea of an ecumenical community, or with the way Donner understands the genesis of the Qur'ānic corpus. Speaking of a "text of convergence" is certainly more neutral, more suitable in case of phases 1) and 2), and does not entail any general conclusion about the nature of the communities involved."
  • How Ecumenical Was Early Islam?
     Reply #9 - May 13, 2015, 06:44 PM

    Liberty vs. License: The Anti-Islam Video and Responsible Global Citizenship.   Fred Donner

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Q9dfX9oRSg

    Yap... genius..

    The Power of Universality of Islam Comes from Being a Movement of All Believers...... Fred Donner

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • How Ecumenical Was Early Islam?
     Reply #10 - May 13, 2015, 07:36 PM



    ^                                                                                                                                                                                                               ^
    The problem with the above, Zoatar, is that it assumes a link between the early paleo-Muslims of Muhammad and the Quran which does not exist. All contemporary sources associate Muhammad's movement strongly with the Jews, the fact that the Quran rails so much against them in my mind only points to how very little Muhammad's mu'minun had to do with the Quran.

    إطلب العلم ولو في الصين

    Es sitzt keine Krone so fest und so hoch,
    Der mutige Springer erreicht sie doch.

    I don't give a fuck about your war, or your President.
  • How Ecumenical Was Early Islam?
     Reply #11 - May 13, 2015, 07:45 PM

    I would agree that the Qur'an probably has relatively little to do with the historical Muhammad.  But the Qur'an rails against the Jews in its later layers, particularly the 'Medinan' texts; it is not nearly so hostile in its earlier layers.  The same regarding Christians.  The text begins as a sort of Judaizing consensus Syriac Christianity, in my mind, and then ends in jihadi anti-Jewish and (to a much lesser degree) anti-Christian polemic.  So I think we can assume that the earlier layers are more representative (emphasis on just 'more') of what the early movement of believers was like, before the jihadi dogma really sets in.  I continue to think that the Doctrina Jacobi is probably as close as we will ever get to the historical Muhammad, who seems to be an apocalyptic Christian Saracen who allied himself with the Jews in the course of trying to conquer Byzantine Jerusalem:

    "When the candidatus [that is, a member of the Byzantine imperial guard] was killed by the Saracens [Sarakenoi], I was at Caesarea and I set off by boat to Sykamina. People were saying "the candidatus has been killed," and we Jews were overjoyed. And they were saying that the prophet had appeared, coming with the Saracens, and that he was proclaiming the advent of the anointed one, the Christ who was to come.

        I, having arrived at Sykamina, stopped by a certain old man well-versed in scriptures, and I said to him: "What can you tell me about the prophet who has appeared with the Saracens?" He replied, groaning deeply: "He is false, for the prophets do not come armed with a sword. Truly they are works of anarchy being committed today and I fear that the first Christ to come, whom the Christians worship, was the one sent by God and we instead are preparing to receive the Antichrist. Indeed, Isaiah said that the Jews would retain a perverted and hardened heart until all the earth should be devastated. But you go, master Abraham, and find out about the prophet who has appeared."

        So I, Abraham, inquired and heard from those who had met him that there was no truth to be found in the so-called prophet, only the shedding of men's blood. He says also that he has the keys of paradise, which is incredible [i.e., not credible]."

    The historical Muhammad, of course, was completely overwritten by Islamic tradition, and is only tangentially present in the final Qur'an.  Just like Jesus and the Gospels.
  • How Ecumenical Was Early Islam?
     Reply #12 - May 13, 2015, 07:50 PM

    ^                                                                                                                                                                                 ^

    I would agree, but I would point to this passage in the above:  "People were saying "the candidatus has been killed," and we Jews were overjoyed. And they were saying that the prophet had appeared, coming with the Saracens, and that he was proclaiming the advent of the anointed one, the Christ who was to come."

    I would also point to pseudo-Sabeos and the secrets of Rabbi Shim'on (the latter being by far the most shocking document in this regard) to say that Muhammad's early movement was heavily, heavily Jewish if it did not in fact retain the support of the majority of the Jewish population of Palestine. Rabbi Shim'on is shocking in particular since it pictures Muhammad just as Doctrina Yacobi nuper Baptizati does, as the savior of the Jewish people, and it is written from a Jewish perspective.

    "When he saw the kingdom of Ishmael that was coming, he began to say: ‘Was it not enough, what the wicked kingdom of Edom did to us, but we must have the kingdom of Ishmael too?’ At once Metatron the prince of the countenance answered and said: ‘Do not fear, son of man, for the Holy One, blessed be He, only brings the kingdom of Ishmael in order to save you from this wickedness. He raises up over them a prophet according to his will and will conquer the land for them and they will come and restore it in greatness, and there will be great terror between them and the sons of Esau.’ Rabbi Simon answered and said: ‘How do we know that they are our salvation?’ He answered: ‘Did not the Prophet Isaiah say thus: “And he saw a troop with a pair of horsemen, etc.”? Why did he put the troop of asses before the troop of camels, when he need only have said: “A troop of camels and a troop of asses”? But when he, the rider on the camel goes forth the kingdom would arise through the rider on an ass. Again: “a troop of asses”, since he rides on an ass, shows that they are the salvation of Israel, like the salvation of the rider on an ass.’"

    إطلب العلم ولو في الصين

    Es sitzt keine Krone so fest und so hoch,
    Der mutige Springer erreicht sie doch.

    I don't give a fuck about your war, or your President.
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