Faith & certainty

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- Absurdist
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Faith & certainty
OP - April 27, 2015, 08:36 AM

This is something I've been thinking about lately. Religious people often conflate faith with certainty, but isn't faith the opposite of that? Faith seems to me a belief in something that is otherwise unknowable. It's an inherently humble belief. This is what Kierkegaard was talking about when he discusses his "leap of faith". It's a leap based on uncertainty. If it weren't, there wouldn't be a leap to take. One takes a leap of faith when one is uncertain of the consequences. Having faith means believing in something despite what is apparent. It cannot be anything but a belief that is constantly questioned.

I think the most faithful people are the ones who are aware of the uncertainty of their belief and are always confronting it head-on. Dogma is not faith. It is the opposite of faith. It is the killing of faith. Dogma prevents the confrontation.
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Reply #1 - April 27, 2015, 09:18 AM

I have long had the same question. Yes Muslims do conflate certainty with faith - partly because the Qur'an does itself talking about those who have certainty (using words like muqinoon and yaqeen) while at the same time talking about those who believe in the unseen (yu'minoon bil-ghayb) which by definition cannot be 'certain' but must be 'faith'.

They also conflate 'disbelief' with 'denial' - the former being involuntary the latter a more active and blameworthy conscious act.

"I think the most faithful people are the ones who are aware of the uncertainty of their belief and are always confronting it head-on."

Perfect - yes!

"Dogma is not faith. It is the opposite of faith. It is the killing of faith. Dogma prevents the confrontation."

Also perfect!

A Jewish friend of mine on facebook commented on my post about being an Agnostic Muslim:

"You would have loved my mother (who is unfortunately suffering from Alzheimer's) who always said that the best and brightest are those who do not blindly follow but who question... she believed that those who have the greatest faith also have the most questions. "

That's one of the things I admire about the Jews - they have a long tradition of being both faithful while being comfortable with doubts and questions.

I've said it many times we (Ex-Muslims & Muslims) could learn so much from them if we just stopped fighting each other.

Our religions after all are virtually identical
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Reply #2 - April 27, 2015, 09:57 AM

Quote from: Hassan on April 27, 2015, 09:18 AM
They also conflate 'disbelief' with 'denial' - the former being involuntary the latter a more active and blameworthy conscious act.

I've noticed that apologists often claim "kuffar" means someone who covers. I.e. they know the truth but reject it out of arrogance. However, in the Qur'an is seems to refer to the kuffar as "deaf, dumb and blind" and "those who do not understand or use reason". Also, those the hypocrites and doubters are also referred to as kuffar aren't they? That seems like the complete opposite of consciously rejecting something out of arrogance. What are your thoughts of the meaning of the word?
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Reply #3 - April 27, 2015, 10:05 AM

kafara can mean 'cover up' - and the Qur'an does seem to regard disbelief as a choice. I suspect in the past this was a common view.

I explain the word kufr here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GX3IBHf1oLY
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Reply #4 - April 28, 2015, 07:24 PM

faith is pretending to be certain of things we don't know
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Reply #5 - April 28, 2015, 08:06 PM

Quote from: serpentofeden on April 28, 2015, 07:24 PM
faith is pretending to be certain of things we don't know

To be fair not all believers regard 'faith' to be certainty.
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Reply #6 - April 28, 2015, 08:21 PM

I began writing my thoughts and had a deja vu moment.

http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=26591.msg757395#msg757395
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Reply #7 - April 28, 2015, 08:22 PM

Of course, like most of my threads, it died a young and quick death, soon to be forgotten.
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Reply #8 - April 28, 2015, 10:59 PM

Quote from: Hassan on April 27, 2015, 09:18 AM

A Jewish friend of mine on facebook commented on my post about being an Agnostic Muslim:

"You would have loved my mother (who is unfortunately suffering from Alzheimer's) who always said that the best and brightest are those who do not blindly follow but who question... she believed that those who have the greatest faith also have the most questions. "

That's one of the things I admire about the Jews - they have a long tradition of being both faithful while being comfortable with doubts and questions.

Yeah, that is a very common attitude with modern Jewry. My great-grandfather taught my grandmother that "God wouldn't have given women brains if he didn't intend for you to use them." He was quite religious, but like a lot of Jews she got jaded after the holocaust, and after his death in 1950, she apparently drifted away from faith. By 1960 when her mother died she wasn't as interested in religion. After her father's death she had gone to the synagogue every day for a year to complete the mourning prayers. Her brother told her that if he believed it would help their father in any way, he would totally go too, but he didn't believe in any life after death. But she never talked about the mourning period for her mother, and often told me that "life is not a dress rehearsal--you're not going to get another one."

Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for I have a sonic screwdriver, a tricorder, and a Type 2 phaser.
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Reply #9 - April 28, 2015, 11:53 PM

The holocaust must have had a huge impact on the faith of many Jews.

I think the terrible events we are seeing at in the Muslim world - from 911 to ISIS - are having an effect on the faith of many Muslims.

I often hear Muslims belittling those who have had their faith effected by these events, but they don't truly understand the process of what happens. It's not the events themselves, i.e. 911, 7/7, ISIS etc... but that they force one to review and re-assess. They can jolt and slap you in the face making you view things from a different perspective and to think deeply and critically. It is only then that one starts to truly question and doubt.

One can only truly examine deeply held beliefs if one is truly willing to accept they could be wrong.

Most believers simply won't start from such a position. They start from the position their faith is true. They cannot open their mind to the possibility it is wrong because subconsciously their mind won't risk losing what religion gives them. Their identity, direction, meaning and place in the world - their reason for getting up in the morning and living life.

Those that do truly open their minds to the possibility they are wrong - do so often because of some traumas or events that have slapped them in the face, shifting their perspective and/or undermined the benefits they get from their beliefs and so weakening their resolve to continue protecting them from genuine scrutiny.
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Reply #10 - April 28, 2015, 11:58 PM

^A sudden brainstorm at 1pm at night lol
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Reply #11 - April 29, 2015, 12:03 AM

Most of my brain activity happens after midnight. But my brain is an asshole lol. Fuck, that reminds me I didn't take my pills this morning. ugh. I feel like shit right now.

Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for I have a sonic screwdriver, a tricorder, and a Type 2 phaser.
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Reply #12 - April 29, 2015, 12:05 AM
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Reply #13 - April 30, 2015, 01:08 PM

Quote from: Hassan on April 28, 2015, 08:06 PM
To be fair not all believers regard 'faith' to be certainty.

Then they should be honest and say it's a "hope"
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Reply #14 - May 03, 2015, 10:21 PM

Quote from: happymurtad on April 28, 2015, 08:21 PM
I began writing my thoughts and had a deja vu moment.

http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=26591.msg757395#msg757395

Great minds...
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Reply #15 - May 03, 2015, 10:22 PM

Dictionary definition of faith:

strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof.
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