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 Topic: Respect women's right to wear veil in court, says Britain's most senior judge

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  • Respect women's right to wear veil in court, says Britain's most senior judge
     OP - April 17, 2015, 11:19 AM
    http://www.theguardian.com/law/2015/apr/17/respect-womens-right-to-weir-veil-in-court-says-britains-most-senior-judge

    Quote
    Judges must show respect to women who choose to keep their faces covered due to their religious beliefs, the UK’s most senior judge has said.

    Lord Neuberger said judges must have “an understanding of different cultural and social habits” in their bid to show fairness to those involved in trials.

    Addressing the Criminal Justice Alliance, the supreme court president said: “It is necessary to have some understanding as to how people from different cultural, social, religious or other backgrounds think and behave and how they expect others to behave.

    “Well-known examples include how some religions consider it inappropriate to take the oath, how some people consider it rude to look other people in the eye, how some women find it inappropriate to appear in public with their face uncovered, and how some people deem it inappropriate to confront others or to be confronted - for instance with an outright denial.”

    In 2014 Judge Peter Murphy upheld a ruling allowing Muslim woman Rebekah Dawson to stand trial wearing a full-face veil.

    The 22-year-old waived her right to give evidence in her defence, however, after it was ruled that she would have to remove the niqab, which made only her eyes visible, if she took the stand.

    She later admitted witness intimidation after denying the charge during a seven-day trial.

    In a lengthy speech entitled “Fairness in the courts: the best we can do”, Neuberger accepted that judges tended to come from privileged backgrounds and warned of the dangers of this. “A white male public school judge presiding in a trial of an unemployed traveller from eastern Europe accused of assaulting or robbing a white female public school woman will, I hope, always be unbiased,” he said.

    “However he should always think to himself what his subconscious may be thinking or how it may be causing him to act; and he should always remember how things may look to the defendant, and indeed to the jury and to the public generally.”

    Neuberger said judges and lawyers should always keep in mind how “intimidating” the court process could be for those involved in trials, including “the parties, their families, the victims, the witnesses and the jurors”.

    Speaking in the context of legal aid cuts, he said ensuring all parties involved in a case understood the goings-on in a court had become more important because “people are having to choose between representing themselves or not getting justice at all”.


    Surely the concept of seeing the face of your accuser (or the accused) is one of the pillars of the justice system?
  • Respect women's right to wear veil in court, says Britain's most senior judge
     Reply #1 - April 17, 2015, 11:46 AM
    Yup, without facial clues you cannot assess the validity of a claim or see fear. It hides body language crucial for judging what people are saying, seeing if they are saying what they believe instead of what they fear not saying.

    No to this stupidity!
  • Respect women's right to wear veil in court, says Britain's most senior judge
     Reply #2 - April 17, 2015, 12:28 PM
    Quote from: Descent on April 17, 2015, 11:19 AM
    http://www.theguardian.com/law/2015/apr/17/respect-womens-right-to-weir-veil-in-court-says-britains-most-senior-judge

    Surely the concept of seeing the face of your accuser (or the accused) is one of the pillars of the justice system?

    Yup.. Yup.. we should respect women rights .. Specially those women ..

    don't use common sense .. don't use golden rules.. MAKE RULES AND FOLLOW THE RULES  

    Idiots at their best...
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Respect women's right to wear veil in court, says Britain's most senior judge
     Reply #3 - May 29, 2015, 01:14 AM
    From studying law I do not trust the mainstream media to comment on court cases or statements made by judges. Usually the media tend to simplify statements made by judges and may even take them out of context. The statements made by judges should be taken with a pinch of salt and viewed under the current legislations.

    In this case I agree Muslim women should be allowed to wear the face veil in court. I base this argument from a human right's perspective. I'm not bringing my feelings into this discussion.

    If a Muslim woman wants to wear a face veil, I fully support her right to do that. I understand it is done for a religious reason. I would take a step further and say people should be allowed to wear whatever they want. It should not bother you or anyone else. If it does, I strongly recommend you stop being bothered by what other people are doing. I'm very tolerant in terms of how people would like to present themselves.

    The only time where I would object to a certain piece of clothing is when it is aimed to intimidate others. For example, a man wears a ski mask to scare members of the public.

    In terms of wearing the face veil in court, I fully support it. Of course identity checks must be made in front of the entire courtroom. Once identity checks are made, then she can wear the veil. It will be quick and simple. In terms of communication we don't need to see another person's face. We constantly chat on the phone and online. So it is not necessary. In terms of cross-examination, there is no exact science on reading a person's facial expressions. It is very misleading and should never be relied upon as a significant factor. In fact there are reported cases where an individual has been misjudged by the jury or a magistrate based on their appearance. The main point is that it is not necessary to see someone's face in order for there to be effective communication.

    Overall this whole debate about the face veil is so insignificant (only a small percentage of the population wear them). I suspect people are against the face veil for emotional/cultural reasons as opposed to logic and human rights. I personally dislike certain breeds of dogs on the streets, but it does not mean I advocate for legislations to in order for my fears/insecurities to be accommodated.
  • Respect women's right to wear veil in court, says Britain's most senior judge
     Reply #4 - May 29, 2015, 01:42 AM
    I think if you believe in Islamic traditions enough to wear the veil, then you should believe in Islamic law enough to take it off in court, while making purchases, and when entering contracts. Such is allowed, recommended. There are far more exceptions than those three, too. 

    This is one of those things that pisses me off no end, like Quran burning.

    Something is allowed in fiqh, and people scramble all over themselves insisting there are no exceptions for it and that anyone insisting it be allowed IRL is not being sensitive to their human rights.

    If only such individuals would read the rest of the text they are quoting...




    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • Respect women's right to wear veil in court, says Britain's most senior judge
     Reply #5 - May 29, 2015, 02:28 AM
    Quote
    I think if you believe in Islamic traditions enough to wear the veil, then you should believe in Islamic law enough to take it off in court, while making purchases, and when entering contracts. Such is allowed, recommended. There are far more exceptions than those three, too. 


    The issue is that this is not really about Islamic traditions. It really is down to an individual what aspects of a religion they follow. Yes it screams hypocrisy...

     This issue simply boils down to dress code and identity in the courts.   If someone let's say attends court wearing a cap because their hair was cut terribly, then an issue of identity might be raised.
  • Respect women's right to wear veil in court, says Britain's most senior judge
     Reply #6 - May 29, 2015, 06:09 AM
    Actually the woman is required to take off the face veil in those cases three mentioned, according to fiqh. So if the women claim "religious reasons" they don't know anything about their own religion. A fair, transparent justice system cannot be compromised because of a tiny minority's twisted idea about selective priviliges.
    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • Respect women's right to wear veil in court, says Britain's most senior judge
     Reply #7 - May 29, 2015, 09:16 AM
    Quote from: Cornflower on May 29, 2015, 06:09 AM
    Actually the woman is required to take off the face veil in those cases three mentioned, according to fiqh. So if the women claim "religious reasons" they don't know anything about their own religion.


    I have often argued that there is really no "true Islam" and that the harsh literalists are just as selective as sufis, moderates and other groups and sects.

    I wish those who insist that the harsh brutal form of Islam represented by ISIS is the real/true Islam would take note.
  • Respect women's right to wear veil in court, says Britain's most senior judge
     Reply #8 - May 29, 2015, 09:18 AM
    Tom Holland made this point in his lecture posted here yesterday. That the literalist approach is a much later innovation.
  • Respect women's right to wear veil in court, says Britain's most senior judge
     Reply #9 - May 29, 2015, 09:19 AM
    Btw anyone who has not seen it, it really is worth the hour.
  • Respect women's right to wear veil in court, says Britain's most senior judge
     Reply #10 - May 29, 2015, 09:49 AM
    .

     
  • Respect women's right to wear veil in court, says Britain's most senior judge
     Reply #11 - May 29, 2015, 07:01 PM
    Quote from: someone1991 on May 29, 2015, 02:28 AM
    The issue is that this is not really about Islamic traditions. It really is down to an individual what aspects of a religion they follow. Yes it screams hypocrisy...

     This issue simply boils down to dress code and identity in the courts.   If someone let's say attends court wearing a cap because their hair was cut terribly, then an issue of identity might be raised.


    I don't understand that. Hats off in court, unless you need a religious exception. Just because I prefer wearing a cap doesn't mean I can change the rules of a courtroom to suit myself. I am not sure what it has to do with identity if you haven't got a religious issue with it.

    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • Respect women's right to wear veil in court, says Britain's most senior judge
     Reply #12 - May 29, 2015, 07:25 PM
    The wonderful thing about religion is that if you get enough to agree with you it can be whatever you want it to be.
    Quote from: yeezevee on February 11, 2016, 02:05 PM
    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Respect women's right to wear veil in court, says Britain's most senior judge
     Reply #13 - May 29, 2015, 09:39 PM
    Yes. I think we should form a religion called Contraryism. So we can just do the opposite of whatever the rules might be.
    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • Respect women's right to wear veil in court, says Britain's most senior judge
     Reply #14 - May 30, 2015, 12:49 AM
    Quote from: three on May 29, 2015, 07:01 PM
    I don't understand that. Hats off in court, unless you need a religious exception. Just because I prefer wearing a cap doesn't mean I can change the rules of a courtroom to suit myself. I am not sure what it has to do with identity if you haven't got a religious issue with it.


    Again this is not about religion. It is about what people want to wear and whether the clothing can prevent someone from confirming your identity. So in the case of the face veil, it should be taken off to confirm the identity of the person wearing it. Once identification has been established, then the person can choose to put the face veil back on for their own comfort.

    Same could be said for someone wearing a hat in court. Sometimes it can be difficult to establish the identity of an individual if they are wearing a hat. So in court it will be taken off so identity can be confirmed.

    The main point is that people can where whatever they want in court. However, if their clothing prevents their identity from being established, then it should be taken off. This can range from a face veil to hats. This is why I'm saying this issue has nothing to do with religion.

    Yeah an Islamic scholar might require Muslim women to take off the face veil in court. That does not mean this is the case in British courts because we do not adopt the views of Islamic scholars.  So if a person with a face veil or a hat comes in court, they can wear it but it must be taken off for identification checks.
  • Respect women's right to wear veil in court, says Britain's most senior judge
     Reply #15 - May 30, 2015, 01:05 AM
    Then men need to shave their beards when in court. They can grow it back after. Because certainly beards are in the way of identifying a person.
    Women need to wash off their makeup, because I can hardly recognize them as the same person in before and after photos these days.
    I mean, we can argue that courtroom rules are for establishing identity, but they are not. Most of the rules of behaviour and dress in a courtroom exist for other reasons.
    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • Respect women's right to wear veil in court, says Britain's most senior judge
     Reply #16 - May 30, 2015, 01:16 AM
    ^ Beards are not clothing at all for a start.  It is like me saying someone who has a nose job must go back and get their old nose back for identity purposes. We are trying to be practical and sensible here.

    All you have to do is a get a passport and a birth certificate. Compare the face to the passport and require the person in question to answer some security questions. Get DNA checks if necessary. Passports are usually up to date.  A face does not drastically change if they grow a beard.

    If the person grew like a HUGE beard like dumbledore, then yeah it may be necessary but it would be incredibly rare for an issue like this to be raised in court.


  • Respect women's right to wear veil in court, says Britain's most senior judge
     Reply #17 - May 30, 2015, 01:22 AM
    So let's just go for the DNA, because names and faces change. Now no one has any excuse to shirk the rules in court.
    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • Respect women's right to wear veil in court, says Britain's most senior judge
     Reply #18 - May 30, 2015, 01:28 AM
    In reality, you would rely on several pieces of information to confirm an identity if this becomes a major issue in court. In fact, DNA is not always reliable. Cross contamination does happen. So you would rely on passports, DNA, security questions, birth certificate, social security details, travel documents and so on.

    In terms of court rules and conventions, they are not static. They have to be flexible in order to deal with the huge variety of cases.

  • Respect women's right to wear veil in court, says Britain's most senior judge
     Reply #19 - May 30, 2015, 01:29 AM
    In reality, you take off your hat in a courtroom because that is what you do.
    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • Respect women's right to wear veil in court, says Britain's most senior judge
     Reply #20 - May 30, 2015, 01:31 AM
    Well it is a silly convention. It really is no big deal if someone wears a hat in court. Doesn't bother you or anyone else. Then again I disagree with many court and parliamentary conventions because they are based on tradition which make absolutely no sense.
  • Respect women's right to wear veil in court, says Britain's most senior judge
     Reply #21 - May 30, 2015, 05:45 AM
    Quote from: someone1991 on May 30, 2015, 12:49 AM

    Yeah an Islamic scholar might require Muslim women to take off the face veil in court. That does not mean this is the case in British courts because we do not adopt the views of Islamic scholars.  So if a person with a face veil or a hat comes in court, they can wear it but it must be taken off for identification checks.


    No, we should not require the niqabi to remove her veil because of Islamic fiqh. However, we should do it because of the very same reason the Muslim scholars came to the conclusion that the veil must be roved in certain instances. The fact that these women are either oblivious about their own tradition, or ignoring it, only shows that this matter is far less about religion/spirituality and far more about identity/politics for these women.

    It's not just about identification, but also about upholding a justice system that treats everyone equally. You cannot accept a witness to conceal her face, and her entire body language and facial expressions, while witnessing. Not just for the one she is witnessing for/against, but also for her own sake. For everyone's sake. Must I go into detail what her choice of concealment might affect and influence the quality of her witnessing as well as the reliability?

    It's not about some secret niqabi hate here. Again, it's about upholding a fair, transparent and reliable justice system. Something even the mullahs and shuyookh of the past realized.
    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • Respect women's right to wear veil in court, says Britain's most senior judge
     Reply #22 - May 30, 2015, 06:10 AM
    Absolutely Cornflower! Its an issue of not being able to read body language cues for hints of truth or lies, comfort or discomfort, rage or calm, boredom or interest.
  • Respect women's right to wear veil in court, says Britain's most senior judge
     Reply #23 - May 30, 2015, 06:55 AM
    Hi Someone 1991, isn't it the jury members role to sit back and observe the body language and facial expression of the defendant ?  The judge bases their decision soley on evidence, if i'm correct ?  but how do a jury come to a decision with a niqabi or someone with a hat concealing their face ?
  • Respect women's right to wear veil in court, says Britain's most senior judge
     Reply #24 - May 30, 2015, 01:34 PM
    Quote from: Cornflower on May 30, 2015, 05:45 AM
    It's not just about identification, but also about upholding a justice system that treats everyone equally.


    Equity triumphs over equality. You treat everyone as an individual first.

    Quote
    You cannot accept a witness to conceal her face, and her entire body language and facial expressions, while witnessing.


    Why not? Do you really believe that body language and facial expressions are an accurate way of finding out whether someone is lying or not? It is far too subjective to rely on whether human body language can show how honest a person is.

  • Respect women's right to wear veil in court, says Britain's most senior judge
     Reply #25 - May 30, 2015, 01:42 PM
    Quote from: someone1991 on May 30, 2015, 01:34 PM
    .st.

    Why not? Do you really believe that body language and facial expressions are an accurate way of finding out whether someone is lying or not?.............

    accuracy is a number game someone1991..

    what should we consider accurate way?  what is the probability? 70? 80,  90?? 99%?

    Yes unless the person is well trained.,   90% of general public will show that in their  body language and  facial expressions ., other way is lie detection test ..  Even here   % of accuracy and the criminal nature and how far state is going to spend their tax payers money ..all these things matter....  

    Some criminals smart enough to escape  lie detector tests, and lucky enough to escape   even the DNA tests
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Respect women's right to wear veil in court, says Britain's most senior judge
     Reply #26 - May 30, 2015, 01:44 PM
    ^ Therefore, face and body language does not need to be revealed in court in order to determine the honesty of the individual.

    Quote from: suki on May 30, 2015, 06:55 AM
    Hi Someone 1991, isn't it the jury members role to sit back and observe the body language and facial expression of the defendant ?  The judge bases their decision soley on evidence, if i'm correct ?  but how do a jury come to a decision with a niqabi or someone with a hat concealing their face ?


    Juries are there to listen. They listen to what people say in court. People with a hat on or a face veil can talk.

    It is dangerous to rely on body language and facial expressions in order to determine whether someone is telling the truth. People judge and discriminate all the time. The jury are no exception. The jury are more likely to discriminate than the judge as judges are trained to avoid discriminating individuals on their looks, ethnicity and background.

    For example, let's assume a big black man with tattoos and long dreadlocks was accused of rape. Naturally he acts and talks quite tough. Let's assume he is actually innocent. Going by your logic, you are saying that jury should base his testimony within the framework of his body language and facial expressions?

    It is very misleading to conclude that the honesty of an individual is based on their body language and facial expressions. So never rely on it. Just listen to what they say.

    Like I said we don't actually need to see an individual's facial expression and body language. We constantly chat online and on the phone.

    In court, it is important to purely rely on what is being said by witnesses and the defendant. You don't rely on their body language/facial expressions because it is very misleading. These are safeguards in place that even benefit you.
  • Respect women's right to wear veil in court, says Britain's most senior judge
     Reply #27 - May 30, 2015, 02:30 PM
    Hey, naw, i'm not disagreeing with you, i was curious to know what the jurers role is, wondering do they have to take everything into consideration, yes i can understand that they would not be qualified like an expert in psychology to notice subtle changes in mannerism etc.
  • Respect women's right to wear veil in court, says Britain's most senior judge
     Reply #28 - May 30, 2015, 11:00 PM
    ^ My bad. I didn't even realise I was coming across harsh. I'll work on that.  parrot
  • Respect women's right to wear veil in court, says Britain's most senior judge
     Reply #29 - May 31, 2015, 08:42 AM
     ?  i don't think you are being harsh, no worries..     : ) 

    x
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