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Theme Changer

 Topic: What is God Really Like: Tawhid or Trinity?

 (Read 2618 times)
  • 1« Previous thread | Next thread »
  • What is God Really Like: Tawhid or Trinity?
     OP - April 13, 2015, 08:08 PM
    Debate between Dr. Nabeel Qureshi and Dr. Shabir Ally:

    "Who Is The Real God? Allah or the Trinity?"

    I kinda skipped through it tbh as it's quite long but I was quite impressed with Nabeel Qureshi - he certainly knows his stuff. Shabir Ally seemed a nice guy too.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWpqqqZn7Kg
  • What is God Really Like: Tawhid or Trinity?
     Reply #1 - April 13, 2015, 08:22 PM
    It was six men of Indostan,
    To learning much inclined,
    Who went to see the Elephant
    (Though all of them were blind),
    That each by observation
    Might satisfy his mind.

    The First approach'd the Elephant,
    And happening to fall
    Against his broad and sturdy side,
    At once began to bawl:
    "God bless me! but the Elephant
    Is very like a wall!"

    The Second, feeling of the tusk,
    Cried, -"Ho! what have we here
    So very round and smooth and sharp?
    To me 'tis mighty clear,
    This wonder of an Elephant
    Is very like a spear!"

    The Third approach'd the animal,
    And happening to take
    The squirming trunk within his hands,
    Thus boldly up and spake:
    "I see," -quoth he- "the Elephant
    Is very like a snake!"

    The Fourth reached out an eager hand,
    And felt about the knee:
    "What most this wondrous beast is like
    Is mighty plain," -quoth he,-
    "'Tis clear enough the Elephant
    Is very like a tree!"

    The Fifth, who chanced to touch the ear,
    Said- "E'en the blindest man
    Can tell what this resembles most;
    Deny the fact who can,
    This marvel of an Elephant
    Is very like a fan!"

    The Sixth no sooner had begun
    About the beast to grope,
    Then, seizing on the swinging tail
    That fell within his scope,
    "I see," -quoth he,- "the Elephant
    Is very like a rope!"
    And so these men of Indostan
    Disputed loud and long,
    Each in his own opinion
    Exceeding stiff and strong,
    Though each was partly in the right,
    And all were in the wrong!

    So, oft in theologic wars
    The disputants, I ween,
    Rail on in utter ignorance
    Of what each other mean;
    And prate about an Elephant
    Not one of them has seen!
  • What is God Really Like: Tawhid or Trinity?
     Reply #2 - April 13, 2015, 08:55 PM
    Absolutely love that story  Afro

    Yes, well said indeed HM lol
  • What is God Really Like: Tawhid or Trinity?
     Reply #3 - April 13, 2015, 08:56 PM
    In fact gonna post that up to my FB if you don't mind lol  Afro
  • What is God Really Like: Tawhid or Trinity?
     Reply #4 - April 13, 2015, 09:01 PM
    Of course! I love it too. It’s certainly not my own. I came across it years ago while teaching. The story itself is apparently quite popular, though this version is the work of one John Godfrey Saxe (1816-1887).
  • What is God Really Like: Tawhid or Trinity?
     Reply #5 - April 13, 2015, 09:09 PM
    Yes I know this story from Sufi tales. It clearly goes back a long way.  Afro
  • What is God Really Like: Tawhid or Trinity?
     Reply #6 - April 13, 2015, 09:15 PM
    Salafis didn't have any cool stories like that.  Cry Grin
  • What is God Really Like: Tawhid or Trinity?
     Reply #7 - April 14, 2015, 12:56 AM
    Shabir is nice, but seems to think that because the Quran mentions the word "day" 365 times (it actually doesn't), this proves the Quran is of divine origin. He's really into linguistic miracles after the scientific miracles he used to push failed.

    Nabeel, on the other hand, is one of those evangelical zealots who hangs out with David Wood and tries to show that Islam is all about slaughtering infidels.

    Both are really good at criticizing the others position, but their defenses of their own religion fall flat.
    "I moreover believe that any religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, cannot be a true system."
    -Thomas Paine
  • What is God Really Like: Tawhid or Trinity?
     Reply #8 - April 14, 2015, 01:16 AM
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dPdeFdxJVk

    This is some seriously contrived nonsense. Add up surah number plus number of verses in the surah, do this for all surahs, and you'll find out the numbers you get half will be even, half will be odd. Add up all the even numbers together and you get the same number as the total verses of the quran, and add up all the odd numbers and they equal the number of all the surahs of the Quran added together. Therefore God.

    The fact that apologists have to stoop to this level shows that they've run out of meaningful arguments.
    "I moreover believe that any religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, cannot be a true system."
    -Thomas Paine
  • What is God Really Like: Tawhid or Trinity?
     Reply #9 - April 14, 2015, 05:47 AM
    I read your summary of the vid thinking  no way that's ridiculous and then I watched the vid...  Cheesy

    It's like taking a book and counting the letters from each sentence and finding the average letters in each sentence in each chapter and then finding a pattern ranging from 15 to 20 back to 15 and then explaining that it means the author is an incredible mathematician and miracle doer!!!

    It's completely unnecessary to have to count letters and sentences in the first place seriously ._.
    I beg to dream and differ from the hollow lies.
  • What is God Really Like: Tawhid or Trinity?
     Reply #10 - April 14, 2015, 06:23 AM
    Another funny thing is the numbering of the ayats have changed throughout time. It's just the modern Cairo text of the Quran that this "miracle" works on.

    I wonder if he imagines a day when everyone is sitting in front of Allah in judgement and Allah asks the non-believers "how could you deny my book? Didn't you add the Surahs to the number of ayats and add up all the even and odd sums and compare them to the total number of ayats and the sum of the Surah numbers? How could I make my signs any clearer? To hell with you all!"
    "I moreover believe that any religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, cannot be a true system."
    -Thomas Paine
  • What is God Really Like: Tawhid or Trinity?
     Reply #11 - April 14, 2015, 06:37 AM
    Quote from: justperusing on April 14, 2015, 06:23 AM
    "how could you deny my book? Didn't you add the Surahs to the number of ayats and add up all the even and odd sums and compare them to the total number of ayats and the sum of the Surah numbers?


    Cheesy
  • What is God Really Like: Tawhid or Trinity?
     Reply #12 - April 14, 2015, 06:48 AM
    Quote from: Sachi on April 14, 2015, 05:47 AM
    I read your summary of the vid thinking  no way that's ridiculous and then I watched the vid...  Cheesy

    It's like taking a book and counting the letters from each sentence and finding the average letters in each sentence in each chapter and then finding a pattern ranging from 15 to 20 back to 15 and then explaining that it means the author is an incredible mathematician and miracle doer!!!

    It's completely unnecessary to have to count letters and sentences in the first place seriously ._.

    There are people who have found prophesies and scientific miracles in Moby Dick.

    See scientific miracles here and prophesies here. Smiley
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • What is God Really Like: Tawhid or Trinity?
     Reply #13 - May 26, 2015, 04:10 AM
    Quote from: justperusing on April 14, 2015, 12:56 AM
    Shabir is nice, but seems to think that because the Quran mentions the word "day" 365 times (it actually doesn't), this proves the Quran is of divine origin. He's really into linguistic miracles after the scientific miracles he used to push failed.

    Nabeel, on the other hand, is one of those evangelical zealots who hangs out with David Wood and tries to show that Islam is all about slaughtering infidels.

    Both are really good at criticizing the others position, but their defenses of their own religion fall flat.


    actually i listen sometimes to Kabir, and he seems like a reasonable person, until he start talking about the Quran Mathematical miracle, no need to say, i was extremely deceived, and i really don't see the benefit of his argument as it is simply too easy to refute, 

    btw, do we have any modern Muslim scholars who don't accept the infallibility of the Quran
  • What is God Really Like: Tawhid or Trinity?
     Reply #14 - May 26, 2015, 04:14 AM
    Some of the Quilliam folk? Plus Hamza "the Wanker" Tortoise lately. Though it is still, of course, a linguistic miracle.
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • What is God Really Like: Tawhid or Trinity?
     Reply #15 - May 26, 2015, 07:29 AM
    Quote from: hatoush on May 26, 2015, 04:10 AM
    btw, do we have any modern Muslim scholars who don't accept the infallibility of the Quran


    Do Souroush and Qabanji count?
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