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 Topic: "There is no truth."

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  • "There is no truth."
     Reply #180 - April 07, 2015, 10:56 PM
    Quote from: allat on April 07, 2015, 08:36 PM

    I do think some [...]


    I...feel like I've just gotten the cutest and most gentle talking to of my life. And more importantly, it makes a ton of sense.

    Okay. How about this. Even if I don't make good friends with philosophy in the next few years, I will try to learn how to respect it. That'll be my goal. To untrain this cynical old heart to associate philosophical debates with Heineken-clutching youths on the couches of dorm parties.  yes

    You're still going to have to give me some time for that, though, Rami. Grin Qtian has some books to recommend, I believe, so someday I'll start there.
  • "There is no truth."
     Reply #181 - April 07, 2015, 11:02 PM
    Quote from: lua on April 07, 2015, 10:56 PM
    To untrain this cynical old heart to associate philosophical debates with Heineken-clutching youths on the couches of dorm parties.  yes


     Cheesy I know exactly what you mean. In my experience, it also involved a lot of *ahem* other substances. But TBF, my fellow Computer Science majors, and Bio/Chem majors were sitting on the same couches too, mostly quietly nodding along and looking around for the next toke.
    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • "There is no truth."
     Reply #182 - April 07, 2015, 11:04 PM
     Cheesy Okay, fair point.
  • "There is no truth."
     Reply #183 - April 08, 2015, 12:01 AM
    In one post I brought up the divide between empiricists vs rationalists. Both are philosophical ideas regarding how we gain knowledge called the theory of knowledge.

    For the rationalist the mind is the gateway to knowledge by deduction, innate ideas and logical necessity. Deduction is just deductive logic which you have used, everyone for that matter has used it. Innate knowledge is the idea that humans have built in knowledge we are born with but not taught. God, basic math (1+1=2), time, causality, etc. Most of those ideas of innate knowledge/ideas are false but this is for another thread. Logical necessity is the idea that certain concepts are true as the idea could not be in any other way. For example to have 3 objects you must have more than 2 objects, it is impossible for an alternative. The mind, reason and logic, is the primary way we understand the world around us. Innate ideas form the basis of our understanding not experiences. Do we learn a concept from experience (“that thing seems to be a thing”), or is it because we already have the idea of it (“That things seems to be a red thing”).

    For the empiricists the mind is a blank slate. Experience and senses are the gateway to knowledge. Any idea we have is imprinted on the mind by experience and senses. For example if I can burn my hand on a heat source or a cold source. It is not the source which causes this burn but the difference in temperature between my hand and the source. If my hand was near the temperature of either source it would not be burned. Objective and subjective data also comes into play. I have no knowledge of heat without the senses or experience. Knowledge is intuitive, demonstrative and sensitive. Intuitive as in "I have a body", "Black is not white". Demonstrative as in I can demonstrate my idea, comparing the heat of the sun with the heat of a fire. Both consume a fuel source, both produce heat from the consumption of this fuel, etc. Sensitive is basic observations via our senses.

    The scientific method takes idea from both theories of knowledge. It borrows parts of the rationalist's view but not as rationalist present it as a unified theory. It follows the empiricist model as presented. Today this would be called rational empiricists but with emphasis on empiricists. So SM is a philosophical theory of knowledge since it is addressing the question of "How do we gain knowledge". It use philosophical ideas as the basis for it's methodology.
  • "There is no truth."
     Reply #184 - April 08, 2015, 12:34 AM
    Quote from: RamiRustom on April 07, 2015, 04:38 PM
    No. You did think about it. You just don't remember. When you were younger you had to learn how to interpret text such that you could follow it's directions. That is philosophy that you learned.

     Cheesy
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • "There is no truth."
     Reply #185 - April 08, 2015, 03:29 PM
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i0Z6z2UaGiA

    So Qtian came across this video that gives a pretty solid summary of the issue and he'd like you guys to watch it Smiley
    You are the Universe, Expressing itself as a Human for a little while- Eckhart Tolle
  • "There is no truth."
     Reply #186 - April 08, 2015, 04:03 PM
    Ishtar, you enabler! Grin
  • "There is no truth."
     Reply #187 - April 08, 2015, 04:27 PM
    Haven't read thread, but whatever you said lua, you're like so totally wrong, I can't even express!
    Quote from: yeezevee on February 11, 2016, 02:05 PM
    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • "There is no truth."
     Reply #188 - April 08, 2015, 04:28 PM
    Very likely the case but regardless you and I are through!  finmad
  • "There is no truth."
     Reply #189 - April 08, 2015, 04:32 PM
     Cry

    I take back everything.
    Quote from: yeezevee on February 11, 2016, 02:05 PM
    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • "There is no truth."
     Reply #190 - April 08, 2015, 04:37 PM
    lol well he asked me nicely, I couldn't say no to him Cheesy


    You are the Universe, Expressing itself as a Human for a little while- Eckhart Tolle
  • "There is no truth."
     Reply #191 - July 10, 2015, 12:21 PM
    Quote from: lua on April 06, 2015, 08:52 PM
    So you're saying if I put one apple next to another apple I cannot observe with my senses that there aren't a fucktillion apples on the table now and that there are actually two?


    You can observe that but what Rami was saying is that no amount of apple-counting will impact the validity of the abstract claim that 1+1=2.  He's correct.

    I could either prove that 1+1=2 via the Peano axioms and thereby show that empirical evidence is irrelevant here, or I could post a funny picture. I think I'll post the funny pic.




    Quote from: lua
    and statistics is part of mathematics


    Oh lua, whom I adore more than my beard, stats ain't part of math. Mathematics is just a tool we use in statistical inquiry and mathematical sophistication varies in the field. Applied statisticians are more focused on moving from the theory to the practice whilst mathematical statisticians use mathematics in order to build tools to aid statistical analysis. Either way, mathematics isn't the language of statistics. If anything, stats is applied epistemology.



    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • "There is no truth."
     Reply #192 - July 11, 2015, 01:05 AM
    Qtiaaaan! Welcome back! fest42 fest42

    Also, you've been waiting all this time to officially reply, huh? Grin You know my deal with the rest, I've deferred to the people I trust on the thread (and you in your emails), but you loving me more than your beard is pleasant news to me. 001_wub

    Someday I'll be on the same page as you. Inshallah.
  • "There is no truth."
     Reply #193 - July 11, 2015, 02:13 AM
    Hah, it was just a chance encounter actually. I literally got it off reddit where this STEMLord (reddit speak for those who think that the STEM subjects are automatically better than everything else by virtue of them being STEM) was talking shit about the arts and humanities. He then claimed that mathematics is an empirical exercise via an apple-counting experiment. Some dude replied with that apple example and it was hilarious so I saved it.

    Another dude wanted to know why his girlfriend wrote him some poetry, because "it's just words and shit". And lua, you could be the biggest philosophy hater in the world and I still wouldn't mind. We'd just have to argue for a bit and then I'd eventually win.


    Thanks, btw.
    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • "There is no truth."
     Reply #194 - July 11, 2015, 02:38 AM
    Ahh, got it.

    And I reckon. I am quick to surrender. Grin
  • "There is no truth."
     Reply #195 - July 11, 2015, 02:57 AM
    Quote from: possible doppelganger
    I am quick to surrender.


    Who are you and what have you done with lua??
    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • "There is no truth."
     Reply #196 - July 11, 2015, 02:58 AM
    ...Okay. Grin Sometimes I am quick to surrender.
  • "There is no truth."
     Reply #197 - August 01, 2015, 11:02 PM
    Just re-read this thread for lols.

    I agree with the gist of what rami and Bogart have said. I very much agree with Bogart when he said that rami hasn't done a great job of communicating his ideas.


    Anyways, let me have a shot at it.

    Popper's line of demarcation was a conceptual i.e. philosophical argument. It was a logical argument, based on a form of deductive argumentation known as modus tollens.  (This leads to another interesting question in philosophical logic, as some philosophers have argued against the general validity of MT.)

    Here is the falsifying inference:

    ((t → p)~p) → ~t

    In English: If a proposition is a derivable from a theory, and if the proposition is false then the theory is also false.




    For those who aren't aware, science before Popper was simply defined as a process of observation and induction, to the extent that pseudosciences such as parapsychology would've been a "science" under this inadequate definition. The protagonists of our short adventure are Mr.Science and Mrs.Pseudoscience, a happily married couple. One sunny day, along came Mr.Popper with his line of demarcation, proposing the  notion of falsification. This offered a mechanism to demarcate science from pseudoscience. Mr.Science and Mrs.Pseudoscience then realised that their marriage wasn't working, resulting in a painful divorce.

    These are just prefatory remarks. The issue of falsification is far more complicated than naive falsificationists such as Lawrence Krauss (sorry, but I love taking shots at Krauss) think it is.
    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • "There is no truth."
     Reply #198 - August 01, 2015, 11:19 PM
    Quote
    You can observe that but what Rami was saying is that no amount of apple-counting will impact the validity of the abstract claim that 1+1=2.  He's correct.

    I could either prove that 1+1=2 via the Peano axioms and thereby show that empirical evidence is irrelevant here, or I could post a funny picture. I think I'll post the funny pic.


    If we want to prove, we need axioms to derive our conclusion. Let's use the Peano Axioms, which give us basic rules which describe the natural numbers.

    In PA, 1 and 2 don't exist. We have 0 and a successor function S(n).

    Axioms:

    A1. For every x and y, S(x)=S(y) if and only if x=y.
    A2. For every x either x=0 or there is some y such that x=S(y).
    A3. There is no x such that S(x)=0.
    A4. For every x and for every y, x+y=y+x.
    A5. For every x , x+0=x.
    A6. For every x and every y , x+S(y)=S(x+y).

    Proof:

    1. S(0) +S(0) = S(S(0)+0)  [A6]
    2. S(0) + 0 = S(0)             [A5]
    3. S(S(0)+0)= S(S(0))        [A1,2]
    4. S(0)+S(0) = S(S(0))       [1,3]

    From here on out, let it be known that mathematical knowledge is a priori.  Let us rejoice, for scientism has been vanquished.






    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • "There is no truth."
     Reply #199 - August 02, 2015, 08:42 AM
    An example of the influence of philosophy can be found in the apparent* rift between Bayesians and Frequentists. Those who subscribe to the philosophy of Bayesianism have a different outlook on uncertainty, compared to those who believe in Frequentism. This has an obvious impact on statistics and to the extent that some scientific activity relies on statistical interpretation, it impacts science, too.  This is extremely apparent in fields such as machine learning and artificial intelligence. Bayesian methods offer alternatives to null hypothesis significance testing. Many scientists adopt naive statistics, misunderstand the nature of the p-value etc...

    Earlier this year, an applied psychology journal decided to ban null hypothesis significance testing procedures: http://stats.stackexchange.com/a/139312

    Anyways, there are many who think that Bayesian methods are some sort of panacea. If you think that Bayesianism is without philosophical problems, you're sorely mistaken. If you want to do statistics properly then it's probably wise to consider your philosophical assumptions. Statistics and philosophy are inextricably tied together.

    *Methods such as Empirical Bayes allow for a fusion of both types of reasoning.

    I could go ahead and explain the difference, but here's a pretty cute article : http://simplystatistics.org/2014/10/13/as-an-applied-statistician-i-find-the-frequentists-versus-bayesians-debate-completely-inconsequential/
    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • "There is no truth."
     Reply #200 - August 02, 2015, 10:07 AM
    Quote from: allat on April 07, 2015, 08:36 PM
    *


    Allat, not sure if you've read Kuhn's "The Structure of Scientific Revolutions" but he makes some very interesting points. Within his book, the "normal science" paradigm would be akin to your mentioning of scientists and their pragmatic approach. These scientists are only focused on building on top of the current body of scientific knowledge. According to Kuhn, most scientists are "normal" in this respect.

    Crisis science on the other hand, is more eclectic. Occasionally, progress hits a stone wall. Theories which were thought to be robust, turn out to be shaky. Now we need to discuss foundational topics. A scientific revolution is required. Adding to current knowledge is no longer the goal, we need new frameworks to explain things. Physics and proto-relativity before Einstein is an example. Kuhn calls this type of science "crisis science". An example of a crisis scientist would be Albert Einstein.

    The link between crisis science and philosophy is stronger than the link between normal science and philosophy. Normal science gets along fine without philosophy, crisis science often requires philosophical thought. For example, Albert Einstein was heavily influenced by the philosophy of science. He went as far as attributing his success to his philosophical knowledge.



    Quote from: http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/einstein-philscience/#IntWasEinEpiOpp
    Late in 1944, Albert Einstein received a letter from Robert Thornton, a young African-American philosopher of science who had just finished his Ph.D. under Herbert Feigl at Minnesota and was beginning a new job teaching physics at the University of Puerto Rico, Mayaguez. He had written to solicit from Einstein a few supportive words on behalf of his efforts to introduce “as much of the philosophy of science as possible” into the modern physics course that he was to teach the following spring (Thornton to Einstein, 28 November 1944, EA 61–573).[1] Here is what Einstein offered in reply:

        I fully agree with you about the significance and educational value of methodology as well as history and philosophy of science. So many people today—and even professional scientists—seem to me like somebody who has seen thousands of trees but has never seen a forest. A knowledge of the historic and philosophical background gives that kind of independence from prejudices of his generation from which most scientists are suffering. This independence created by philosophical insight is—in my opinion—the mark of distinction between a mere artisan or specialist and a real seeker after truth. (Einstein to Thornton, 7 December 1944, EA 61-574)

    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • "There is no truth."
     Reply #201 - August 02, 2015, 02:04 PM
    Quote from: Qtian on August 02, 2015, 10:07 AM
    Allat, not sure if you've read Kuhn's "The Structure of Scientific Revolutions" but he makes some very interesting points. ....................

     Hmm... Qtian  reads too much and does too many things in life.. I am worried about him.. Qtian   keep the oil.. keep the flame burning.. don't burn out...,  But that is a very good book to read..
    "The Structure of Scientific Revolutions" .. Those who didn't read please down load and read....

    Quote
    ................... Physics and proto-relativity before Einstein is an examp.............. An example of a crisis scientist would be Albert Einstein............

    ............... Albert Einstein was heavily influenced by the philosophy of science. He went as far as attributing his success to his philosophical knowledge............

    Albert Einstein.....Albert Einstein......Albert Einstein.......Albert Einstein.....  Yadi..yadi.. yadi.... Tongue Tongue Tongue

    I don't care.. how great he was.. I don't care what he did at Princeton... I keep the rights to question however good and great they may be.......



    but let me give bit of  credit to  Mileva Maric.,  Einstein first wife for the work he did and got that Noble Medal..

    Mileva Maric (1875-1948)

    http://home.comcast.net/~xtxinc/mileva.htm

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KEObAwnO0rw

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O4YaAVo3tvg
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • "There is no truth."
     Reply #202 - August 02, 2015, 02:58 PM
    Yeez, you're weird.
    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • "There is no truth."
     Reply #203 - August 02, 2015, 03:17 PM
    Read this.

    https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/psychology-journal-bans-significance-testing/
    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • "There is no truth."
     Reply #204 - August 02, 2015, 07:31 PM
    For anyone who is still doubting that falsification is philosophy, here are some passages taken from Popper's book 'The Logic of Scientific Discovery":

    Quote
    ...it is still impossible, for various reasons, that any theoretical system should ever be conclusively falsified. For it is always possible to find some way of evading falsification, for example by introducing ad hoc an auxiliary hypothesis, or by changing ad hoc a definition. ... I am going to propose that the empirical method shall be characterized as a method that excludes precisely those ways of evading falsification which, as my imaginary critic rightly insists, are logically possible. (p. 19-21)

    ... no conclusive disproof of a theory can ever be produced; for it is always possible to say that the experimental results are not reliable, or that the discrepancies which are asserted to exist between the experimental results and the theory are only apparent and that they will disappear with the advance of our understanding. (p. 28)

    Assume p to be false, ... to be read ‘not-p’. Given the relation of deducibility, t → p, and the assumption [not-]p, we can then infer [not-t]; that is, we regard t as falsified. If we denote the conjunction (simultaneous assertion) of two statements by putting a point between the symbols standing for them, we may also write the falsifying inference thus: ((t → p)~p) → ~t, or in words: ‘If p is derivable from t, and if p is false, then t also is false’.

    By means of this mode of inference we falsify the whole system (the theory as well as the initial conditions [Popper's words for auxiliary hypotheses]) which was required for the deduction of the statement p, i.e. of the falsified statement. Thus it cannot be asserted of any one statement of the system that it is, or is not, specifically upset by the falsification. (p. 56)



    K, I'm done for now.
    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • "There is no truth."
     Reply #205 - August 18, 2015, 10:02 AM
    Quote from: yeezevee on August 02, 2015, 02:04 PM
    Albert Einstein.....Albert Einstein......Albert Einstein.......Albert Einstein...


    * Albert Einstein as a Philosopher of Science.pdf (467.46 KB - downloaded 217 times.)
    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • "There is no truth."
     Reply #206 - August 18, 2015, 11:19 AM
    Quote from: Qtian on August 18, 2015, 10:02 AM

    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=28543.0;attach=10522  

    Hmm.. great minds.. great souls many together at that link  Qtian., thank you., ...

    such guys live/die and  they train/generate  new generation of great minds & great souls ., and that must be the reason why often religious discourses from different religions use the word "IMMORTALITY"

    Keep it up Qtian...keep it up...
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • "There is no truth."
     Reply #207 - August 23, 2015, 01:34 AM
    You're welcome my darling.
    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
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