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 Topic: In the process as an closet apostate

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  • In the process as an closet apostate
     OP - March 23, 2015, 05:06 PM
    This would be my first post. I don’t know whether to post it in the introduction or here. I’ll just post here since it is story. I came across this forum and lurked around during my journey out of Islam. Well I am not totally out yet from where I am in life now. Like my forum name I am just a “Closet apostate”. Or I can even call myself a Chameleon as outwardly I don’t look like I left. Nobody really knew in real life what had gone through my mind as well as the massive discomfort I have in this.  I am hiding it in myself now I do have someone which I told this before but it is a rather lonely journey.
    Pardon me if my writing I would go back and forth and get long winded. And also if it is all over the place.  I am typing this to get it out my mind.  I don’t suddenly leave Islam like that or have massive doubt in one day. It is a gradual process that builds up over time.  It was last year that I began to think Islam is not as divine or “true”. I think it started even way earlier but I don’t see it as “doubt’
    It all began when I was surfing youtube, I had thought of being a vegan to reduce killing of animal. I stumbled into this channel called vegan atheist. For the first time ever I started to watch religious debates, as a Muslim I avoided such things so my faith would not be shaking thinking it is some whispering from shaytan and I also I believe so strongly in it. So strange that suddenly I was looking into religious stuff. I only watch the stuff about arguments and how absurd Christianity is. The first video I watch was called “context” by nonstampcollector. It was about if you someone quote a violent and questionable bible verses it said to be “out of context”. I realized this is the same excuse used by Muslim to defend verses in the Quran. I don’t even know such verses exist in the Quran or I just shut it out of my brain. The more I watch it made sense. I then used was I learn there and tested it against Islam, I realized I am poking more and more holes into my belief system. I was really really broken by the day when that happen.  Islam and praying was my “comfort” in pain and sadness. Ever since I was young I stuttered in my speech and “simple” social situation would make me uncomfortable and panicky as I have to deal with this. On top having a speech problem,  I am also very anxious and get sad when things don’t turn out the way it. Its uncomfortable and painful as my coping mechanism is becoming my poison.

    I was never a fan of religious teacher taught to me when I was in secondary school. I just felt like those teachers put too much fear of Allah and no love at all. I do have hate for teacher not being kind to me in plight suffering anxiety even though their teachers who are supposed to be teaching holy scriptures and the “Islamic” way which I assume at that time to be all good. I was in deep depression secondary school during my final years. I almost quited that year not taking the GCSE O-levls and spend time skipping school. I got to be drag to school by my parent so I can go to school. During that time I asked myself “why is Allah testing me like this”? It is a test is commonly used by my parents or religious teachers. I was already asking myself why do go through this in this world when there is afterlife? It was hell to me. During that time my dad found a doctor to bring me too. That doctor introduced to me about the concept of “love” and unconditional love which is so different from what is taught in religious school about fear Allah and punishment from Allah. Allah is always looking. I prefer this so much versus the old conventional Islamic way of fear.  I quitted the madrasah(religious school) due to depression. I could not quit my secondary school though but I managed to take the GCSE O level. I thank Allah for all that I had been through and always prayed everyday. I don’t look at Islam stuff after that the conventional one that is. I got the thought that Allah is love and people are misinterpreting it. I was practicing Islam in my own way I had no idea that I am practicing a form of Islamic deism. Deism is a new word after I started getting doubts about Islam.

    I got into college and life just goes with me having my struggle with stuttering ,anxiety and depression I still prayed 5 times a day. I still do pray now as I am now typing this. I don’t pray because I believe, I pray just because I simply to used to it and also I am living in an Islamic household with my mom and dad. I highly doubt they would even be remotely shaken in their belief. I recall about my dad reading up about a country nearby me wanting to implement stoning for gay and adulterers. I told him that is wrong, stoning is disgusting whatever the context is. There are way better way to execute someone than stoning. Also how can a merciful loving god thought of such a barbaric punishment. He just said that this is Allah law and it should follow, if it is not punish in this world in would be in the hereafter. I was shaking my head hearing that. I was also really so broken because I am standing in front of him in full blown apostasy yet he don’t know it. The very law of God he accepted would get me killed in that Islamic country.

    It is difficult to keep this as it is worsening my anxiety. My mom and dad don’t know about it though.
    I am still in the process now. I have big doubts about Islam but I can’t just walk now I could barely support myself financially yet with those struggles. Yet at the same time my doubts about Islam is giving me push to make myself independent. Which right now does not seem so well yet though.  This story is still ongoing. I am doing what I can step by step. I'll update when things come to mind. Sorry if it is not coherent now.
  • In the process as an closet apostate
     Reply #1 - March 23, 2015, 05:45 PM
    Welcome and may I with great pleasure present a welcome gift!



     parrot parrot parrot parrot parrot parrot parrot parrot parrot parrot parrot parrot parrot parrot parrot parrot parrot parrot parrot parrot parrot parrot parrot parrot

    Just wondering if, where people have to live two lives, a historical example might be of help!  He was actually a good guy!

    Quote
    Niccolò di Bernardo dei Machiavelli (Italian: [nikkoˈlɔ makjaˈvɛlli]; 3 May 1469 – 21 June 1527) was a Florentine historian, politician, diplomat, philosopher, humanist, and writer during the Renaissance. He was for many years an official in the Florentine Republic, with responsibilities in diplomatic and military affairs. He was a founder of modern political science, and more specifically political ethics. He also wrote comedies, carnival songs, and poetry. His personal correspondence is renowned in the Italian language. He was Secretary to the Second Chancery of the Republic of Florence from 1498 to 1512, when the Medici were out of power. He wrote his masterpiece, The Prince, after the Medici had recovered power and he no longer held a position of responsibility in Florence. His views on the importance of a strong ruler who was not afraid to be harsh with his subjects and enemies were most likely influenced by the Italian city-states, which due to a lack of unification were very vulnerable to other unified nation-states, such as France.

    "Machiavellianism" is a widely used negative term to characterize unscrupulous politicians of the sort Machiavelli described in The Prince. The book itself gained enormous notoriety and wide readership because the author seemed to be endorsing behavior often deemed as evil and immoral. Because of this, the term "Machiavellian" is often associated with deceit, deviousness, ambition, and brutality.


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niccolò_Machiavelli
    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • In the process as an closet apostate
     Reply #2 - March 24, 2015, 12:55 AM
    Welcome. parrot
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • In the process as an closet apostate
     Reply #3 - March 24, 2015, 02:39 AM
     parrot

    Welcome! You will find support here, and don't worry about your writing. It all made sense.
    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • In the process as an closet apostate
     Reply #4 - March 24, 2015, 07:54 PM
    Thanks for sharing your story.

    Unconditional love from God is Christian doctrine not Islamic. There are a number of verses in the Quran which state Allah does not love X. If Allah does not love X then love is conditional.

    Prayer can be used as a form of meditation to reflect on ideas, events, etc you have experienced. I altered my former habits to meditation and isolation from external distractions. Maybe you can use the time spent on prayers in the same way.
  • In the process as an closet apostate
     Reply #5 - March 24, 2015, 09:31 PM
    Welcome!
  • In the process as an closet apostate
     Reply #6 - March 24, 2015, 10:05 PM
    Welcome, Closet  Afro
  • In the process as an closet apostate
     Reply #7 - March 25, 2015, 12:40 AM
    Welcome  parrot
  • In the process as an closet apostate
     Reply #8 - March 25, 2015, 08:37 AM
    Thanks for all the welcome  parrot love this parrot!
  • In the process as an closet apostate
     Reply #9 - March 25, 2015, 09:30 AM
    Welcome to the forum Closet Smiley
    He's no friend to the friendless
    And he's the mother of grief
    There's only sorrow for tomorrow
    Surely life is too brief
  • In the process as an closet apostate
     Reply #10 - March 25, 2015, 06:11 PM
    Quote from: bogart on March 24, 2015, 07:54 PM
    Thanks for sharing your story.

    Unconditional love from God is Christian doctrine not Islamic. There are a number of verses in the Quran which state Allah does not love X. If Allah does not love X then love is conditional.

    Prayer can be used as a form of meditation to reflect on ideas, events, etc you have experienced. I altered my former habits to meditation and isolation from external distractions. Maybe you can use the time spent on prayers in the same way.


    Thanks for the clarification. During that time I meet the less than conventional practitioner of Islam. I remember that doctor then using the Basmallah using it as prove of the love of Allah, "in the name of Allah most gracious and merciful". I don't know about the other verses then. Can you refer to me the sentences where Allah does not love X. I have not been flipping the Quran for sometime due to this dissonance.

    Can you tell me how you do it as a form of meditation?
  • In the process as an closet apostate
     Reply #11 - March 25, 2015, 06:21 PM
    welcome my friend. I am an apostate of 1 year and I know how hard it can be.  far away hug
    lonelyboy
  • In the process as an closet apostate
     Reply #12 - March 25, 2015, 07:40 PM
    A video for all those in the closet.  far away hug

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gw8Hwz3Xumc
  • In the process as an closet apostate
     Reply #13 - March 26, 2015, 06:35 PM
     Welcome  grin12 i have been questioning islam for a year too and it's still difficult for me to accept that I don't believe no more  but I believe one day you get over the anxiety and the stress and then you can enjoy life. I haven't been out of the closet yet and I don't think I will ever be because my husband will not understand, I pretend in front of him and my family. The only power I have now is to make sure my kids will always question everything in life especially religions. far away hug

    (La culture c'est comme la confiture moin on en a plus on l'étale)
  • In the process as an closet apostate
     Reply #14 - March 26, 2015, 10:04 PM
    Quote from: Closet on March 25, 2015, 06:11 PM
    Thanks for the clarification. During that time I meet the less than conventional practitioner of Islam. I remember that doctor then using the Basmallah using it as prove of the love of Allah, "in the name of Allah most gracious and merciful". I don't know about the other verses then. Can you refer to me the sentences where Allah does not love X. I have not been flipping the Quran for sometime due to this dissonance.

    Can you tell me how you do it as a form of meditation?



    http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/quran/verses/030-qmt.php#030.045
    http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/quran/verses/003-qmt.php#003.032
    http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/quran/verses/022-qmt.php#022.038
    http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/quran/verses/002-qmt.php#002.098

    This is reinforced as a social view Muslims should have towards unbelievers in verses such as:

    http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/quran/verses/058-qmt.php#058.022
    http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/quran/verses/005-qmt.php#005.051
    http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/quran/verses/003-qmt.php#003.118
    http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/quran/verses/004-qmt.php#004.101

    Well I was taught that prayers should be about asking forgiveness for sins committed during the day. Poor conduct towards another person; rude, arrogance, etc. Also I should pray for the benefit for other people such as the sick, needy or those in need of support. Rather than asking for forgiveness I reflect on why I acted poorly and what I can do to correct this. If the matter is of major concern such as a schism with another I will apologize to the person directly. For the benefit of others I see what I can do to help said person or people. I uses instrumental music with no vocals or radical changes in tempo as an aid. I shut out all external influences; people, tv, etc to avoid distractions. Beside this method I use an altered method to brain drain when writing a paper. Between each draft and revision I step away as per above. I think about my goal(s), the method of communicating my ideas, ordering of my arguments, repeat arguments in different forms. For example Thomas Aquinas' 5 ways contains 3 arguments which are the same argument just using different words. Hence he is just repeating the same argument 3 times as if each is different when in fact each is the same.
  • In the process as an closet apostate
     Reply #15 - March 27, 2015, 09:43 AM
    Quote from: Ranma 1/2 on March 26, 2015, 06:35 PM
    Welcome  grin12 i have been questioning islam for a year too and it's still difficult for me to accept that I don't believe no more  but I believe one day you get over the anxiety and the stress and then you can enjoy life. I haven't been out of the closet yet and I don't think I will ever be because my husband will not understand, I pretend in front of him and my family. The only power I have now is to make sure my kids will always question everything in life especially religions. far away hug

    (La culture c'est comme la confiture moin on en a plus on l'étale)


    Welcome, Ranma. Things will get better  far away hug
  • In the process as an closet apostate
     Reply #16 - March 27, 2015, 02:12 PM
    Thank you hasssan  yes I'm sure they Will.
  • In the process as an closet apostate
     Reply #17 - March 27, 2015, 07:44 PM
    Quote from: Ranma 1/2 on March 26, 2015, 06:35 PM
    Welcome  grin12 i have been questioning islam for a year too and it's still difficult for me to accept that I don't believe no more  but I believe one day you get over the anxiety and the stress and then you can enjoy life. I haven't been out of the closet yet and I don't think I will ever be because my husband will not understand, I pretend in front of him and my family. The only power I have now is to make sure my kids will always question everything in life especially religions. far away hug

    (La culture c'est comme la confiture moin on en a plus on l'étale)


    Thanks.
    That is French right? Can you tell me the meaning?

    I am having a very hard time recently. Things change so much. I just asked myself can I even do this and support myself without feeling down and depressed? I just felt time past so long and I am being stuck.  Cry Aside from Islam. When I told my mom about me down or my family for the matter, they say it is "Allah" this "Allah that", "pray hard", "ask from Allah". I just wonder if they give psychological support without linking to Allah at all. Which I am getting very tired of hearing aside from that rather draining.

    Everything changed after Islam left my heart, I started to question everything. I don't question now though.

    You are married? If I have kids I do the same too and I would not force Islam or any religion on them. It'll save them a lot of time from being teared apart when their believe system broke down and also save from alot of stress on top of whatever they are facing in real life. It is dangerous for people that are already susceptible to depression for this to happen.

    I am still learning about how Islam is not true and also the thousands of religion for that matter.

    thanks everyone.  far away hug

  • In the process as an closet apostate
     Reply #18 - March 27, 2015, 08:42 PM
    Quote from: Closet on March 27, 2015, 07:44 PM
    ..........

    I am still learning about how Islam is not true and also the thousands of religion for that matter not true .

    thanks everyone.  far away hug


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQcbVDA8GDc

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VC6rDm3kahI

    Hello Closet see Allah in the sky...?



    but i like this one..

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPOfurmrjxo
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • In the process as an closet apostate
     Reply #19 - March 29, 2015, 09:30 AM
    Quote from: Ranma 1/2 on March 26, 2015, 06:35 PM
    (La culture c'est comme la confiture moin on en a plus on l'étale)


    That is my father's favourite saying. Papa, c'est toi?  grin12
    He's no friend to the friendless
    And he's the mother of grief
    There's only sorrow for tomorrow
    Surely life is too brief
  • In the process as an closet apostate
     Reply #20 - March 29, 2015, 09:31 AM
    Quote from: Closet on March 27, 2015, 07:44 PM
    That is French right? Can you tell me the meaning?


    Culture is like jam/jelly. The less you have of it, the more you spread it (but "spread" here is more in the sense of showing off)
    He's no friend to the friendless
    And he's the mother of grief
    There's only sorrow for tomorrow
    Surely life is too brief
  • In the process as an closet apostate
     Reply #21 - May 15, 2015, 02:01 PM
    A bit of update have been awhile I have not been here.

    Today I went to the Friday prayers. I am not as uncomfortable strangely in the mosque again as an apostate. My parents are bugging me to go Friday prayer , I would not say I like it. I guess that is good in a way. i would prefer not to go though.

    So today topic for the sermon is talking about the day of judgement Qiyamah.  As a Muslim growing up this topic really brought me alot of fear. I started doing full 5 times a day prayer at the age of 10 hearing about how scary about the end of days and days of judgement. I still kinda have that fear in my heart being brought up with the idea at such a young age. As I sat listening to the Friday sermon, I know their nonsense and cow manure in my mind, though emotionally the fear is there when this mind stop functioning.

    So the khatib said "it is tied to an impending event that will certainly occur". I kinda smile by how untrue it is. I look around me for such a heavy topic the congregation seems unmoved? Don't they believe the severity of this? The Muslims there look like their going through a routine as it is a must to go for prayers like a talk or meeting. If qiyamah is so serious and damningly eternal  shouldn't you spend every second of your life to spread the word of Allah and be in prayer?

    The khatib begin reading surah Al-Qiyamah verse 1 -10. “I swear by the Day of Resurrection. And I swear by the reproaching soul [to the certainty of resurrection]. Does man think that We will not assemble his bones? Yes. [We are] Able [even] to proportion his fingertips. But man desires to continue in sin. He asks, “When is the Day of Resurrection?” So when vision is dazzled. And the moon darkens. And the sun and the moon are joined, Man will say on that Day, “Where is the [place of] escape?”

    When I hear this, I said to myself the sun and moon is joined? So the law of nature would suspend itself for this moment? Don't they know how far the sun is from the moon? Even if the moon were to travel at the speed of light to the sun it would take 8 minutes. Their not next to each other like the Quran implied. We would be long gone without the moon because of how unstable the Earth is without the moon. Let's just assume it is true.

    The khatib went on saying Subhanallah! The description of the Day of Qiyamah as depicted by the verses above is too shocking. It instils fear and worry in the hearts of every believer. However, the full extent of the situation on the Day of Judgement is something that we cannot comprehend or imagine because of the limitations of our intellect."

    It shockingly implausible for me unless the law of nature are suspend assuming it true for the sake of argument. It is god after all. The khatib said how a nursing mother would leave their child behind in fear of what is happening.

    “On the Day you see it every nursing mother will be distracted from that [child] she was nursing, and every pregnant woman will abort her pregnancy, and you will see the people [appearing] intoxicated while they are not intoxicated; but the punishment of Allah is severe”. [Surah Al-Hajj verse 2]

    What is the point of Allah treating his creatures that are so limited with such fear? The Khatib went on saying how we should love Allah and the prophet so we will be saved. I am feeling rather uncomfortable by the dissonance here. The very God you have love would put you in a lot of fear if you don't love him or obey in. When you don't love him the punishment is prepared for you on the day of judgement. This God is loving and wise and care for you. I don't see it that way, it is like an abusive lover that use threats to keep you in a relationship.

    I sat through there listening to it and my mind is twisting about but I must hold my sanity and be a "Muslim" for my own sake of living ok. I'll stay for quite a long while here. I am seeing things I am not seeing before.
  • In the process as an closet apostate
     Reply #22 - May 15, 2015, 02:13 PM
    Ah, that's familiar. You're in the middle of a process. Isn't it funny how, when you notice one problem, the rest start showing up out of nowhere?

    I hope things are going well for you otherwise.
  • In the process as an closet apostate
     Reply #23 - May 15, 2015, 02:58 PM
    Quote from: lua on May 15, 2015, 02:13 PM
    Ah, that's familiar. You're in the middle of a process. Isn't it funny how, when you notice one problem, the rest start showing up out of nowhere?

    I hope things are going well for you otherwise.


    As of now I am typing this I am a bit better. So many things in my mind is questioned after this. Psychologically it is difficult. I just hope I get to a point where listening to this I am stable enough to hold myself and not be identified with it or attached to it.
  • In the process as an closet apostate
     Reply #24 - May 15, 2015, 04:05 PM
    Quote from: Closet on May 15, 2015, 02:01 PM
    he Muslims there look like their going through a routine as it is a must to go for prayers like a talk or meeting


    Yes that's exactly what the majority do - just go through the motions. Oddly enough I think it's those with sincerity and the feeling that what they say should match what they do - that often end up leaving Islam.

  • In the process as an closet apostate
     Reply #25 - May 15, 2015, 05:22 PM
    What are the actions of the people who no longer exist that will make the buttocks of the women jiggle? I know the end times won't come until then. You know, the tribe that doesn't exist any more. Grin
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • In the process as an closet apostate
     Reply #26 - May 15, 2015, 10:11 PM
    Quote from: Quod Sum Eris on May 15, 2015, 05:22 PM
    What are the actions of the people who no longer exist that will make the buttocks of the women jiggle? I know the end times won't come until then. You know, the tribe that doesn't exist any more. Grin


    This gave me chuckle. haha   Grin  I love some butts too.  I don't get what you mean by a tribe that doesn't exist anymore.
  • In the process as an closet apostate
     Reply #27 - May 16, 2015, 05:31 AM
    Quote
    The Messenger of Allah said: The Hour will not come until the buttocks of the women of the tribe of Daws move whist going around the idol of Dhu l-Khalasah


    Both the tribe of Daws and the Dhu l-Khalasah no longer exist. So yeah. No islamic end times. cheers
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • In the process as an closet apostate
     Reply #28 - May 16, 2015, 03:12 PM
    Sorry I missed you, but welcome to the forum Closet, and have a rabbit!  bunny

    Sorry this process is causing you so much turmoil. Do keep in touch with us and let us know how things are progressing.  far away hug
    Quote from: yeezevee on February 11, 2016, 02:05 PM
    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
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