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 Topic: How dictators in the arab world get support in the West

 (Read 4646 times)
  • 12 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • How dictators in the arab world get support in the West
     OP - March 18, 2015, 09:41 AM

    I suspect I know what Sisi might have told Tony Blair.bla bla reform, blabla democracy not only election, bla bla separate religion from politics.The muslim brotherhood isn't the only group that tailors its language for western audience.
    http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/tony-blair-step-down-middle-east-peace-envoy-1492040#
    http://www.cnbc.com/id/102505423

    Secondly, Sisi is no secularist. He publicly endorses sharia, and during his call for religious revolution, he turned to Sheikh al-Azhar, who endorses crucifixion as part of Islamic theory of law, to take and lead reform.

    Tony Blair is a foolish man.
  • How dictators in the arab world get support in the West
     Reply #1 - March 18, 2015, 03:19 PM

    Tony Blair is more than just foolish. He is an accomplice.
  • How dictators in the arab world get support in the West
     Reply #2 - March 18, 2015, 03:46 PM

    ...............

    http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/tony-blair-step-down-middle-east-peace-envoy-1492040#
    http://www.cnbc.com/id/102505423

    Secondly, Sisi is no secularist. He publicly endorses sharia, and during his call for religious revolution, he turned to Sheikh al-Azhar, who endorses crucifixion as part of Islamic theory of law, to take and lead reform.

    Tony Blair is a foolish man.


    WRONG heading.. "How dictators in the arab world get support from WESTERN POLITICIANS.."

    Sisi is the BASTARD of first order ..  he came in to power by throwing out elected government(though Morsi was and Idiot and  religious bigot)., Whoever question this DICK TRAITOR of Egypt  he throws people in to jail saying they are connected to Brotherhood or Islamic brothel hood rogues  worse his security forces kill people on road with a Mask on their faces.. His regime is as good as Islamic thugs of Egypt..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • How dictators in the arab world get support in the West
     Reply #3 - April 04, 2015, 01:26 PM

    The reactions to Sisis 'Islamic reform' speech in the media shows you why dictators in the arab and muslim world have survived for so long with the support of some western countries, like the US.
  • How dictators in the arab world get support in the West
     Reply #4 - May 05, 2015, 07:54 PM

    Just read someone who made the point that Sisi supported separation between mosque and state when he said that he supports a civil state.Will someone tell them that the Muslim Brotherhood also say that they support a civil state?^_^

    Language differences are so great between the Islamic world and the West that there are serious misunderstandings almost all the time.
  • How dictators in the arab world get support in the West
     Reply #5 - May 05, 2015, 07:58 PM

    I really hope that they have great translators, who understand the cultural and historical contexts, in those western embassies.
  • How dictators in the arab world get support in the West
     Reply #6 - May 05, 2015, 09:53 PM

    It's easy to fool someone who wants to be fooled.

    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • How dictators in the arab world get support in the West
     Reply #7 - May 06, 2015, 12:06 AM

    ^Lon Lon Ranch
  • How dictators in the arab world get support in the West
     Reply #8 - May 06, 2015, 03:26 PM

    During ''secular'' Mubarak, wife beating was allowed as long as it was not on the face ,not ''harsh'' and the husband had 'apropriate' intentions.
  • How dictators in the arab world get support in the West
     Reply #9 - May 06, 2015, 03:37 PM

    ^Lon Lon Ranch


     Smiley

    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • How dictators in the arab world get support in the West
     Reply #10 - May 23, 2015, 07:23 AM

    Egypts new justice minister supports Hudud,the penal code of Sharia.He has not only talked about hudud in general, but specifically the cutting of the hand of the thief.

    This is why I consider the difference between the Egyptian government and the Muslim Brotherhood on Sharia to be much smaller than most think.

    The Sisi presidency will not bring the reform that many think he will, though he may restrict teaching in schools what is mostly identified with salafism nowadays. I'd bet that Sisi himself believes (in theory) Hudud(including stoning), though its unlikely that hewould  apply it.
  • How dictators in the arab world get support in the West
     Reply #11 - May 23, 2015, 08:17 AM

    Egypts new Justice Minister. He supports in theory flogging for fornication and cutting hand of the thief.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xrxMF99fjTY
  • How dictators in the arab world get support in the West
     Reply #12 - May 23, 2015, 04:57 PM

    The new Justice Minister under the Sisi also seems to have endorsed beheading for apostasy.
    Quote
    On a visit to Mecca, he previously gave an interview calling for the full imposition of Sharia law in Egypt - rather than it being acknowledged constitutionally as the ?principal source for legislation? as at present.

    He specifically called for that to include penalties of ?hudud? - corporal penalties for moral crimes such as beheading for apostasy, lashing for fornication, and amputations of limbs for theft.

    "We have in our penal code some articles that contradict Islamic Sharia,? he said. ?I would like the penal code to become Islamic from A to Z.

    ?I would like a single article to be added to the penal code - that Islamic Sharia to be applied with hudud." As critics noted, even the Brotherhood never calling for immediate application of hudud - a practice followed only in the most authoritarian Muslim countries such as Saudi Arabia and Iran, and abandoned elsewhere.

    It called for Sharia to be introduced by ?gradual steps? until society was ready for hudud.


    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/egypt/11618964/Egypts-new-justice-minister-called-for-hardline-Sharia.html
    This is what politicians in the West have a problem understanding when hearing speech in a different cultural context.Sisi was not calling for reforming Islam when he talked about a 'revolution' in religion.
  • How dictators in the arab world get support in the West
     Reply #13 - May 23, 2015, 05:26 PM

    I'll say it again, I really hope those western embassies have people working for them that understand both the language AND the cultural context, otherwise there most likely be major misunderstandings.
  • How dictators in the arab world get support in the West
     Reply #14 - June 05, 2015, 01:14 PM

    A few months ago, Egyptian president Sisi took a view that was seen as a stand for al-Azhar against Islam El-Beheiry who is considered reformist Islamic scholar. Before that happened, Al-Azhar requested a popular show of Islam El-Beheiry to be shut down and pressed charges. Islam El-Beheiry disputed Bukhari. 4 days ago, Islam el-Beheiry was convicted to 5 years.

    Quote
    Now off air, El-Beheiry's show tackled several controversial topics, such as punishment for apostasy, early marriage, and different interpretations of the Hadith, the sayings and teachings of Islam's Prophet Muhammed.


    http://english.ahram.org.eg/NewsContent/1/64/131684/Egypt/Politics-/Egypt-TV-presenter-Islam-ElBeheiry-criticises-blas.aspx

    When Sisi was in Germany this week, he declared that Egyptians had rejected 'religious fascism'.This is why it isn't enough to read a few articles and watch a few Memri  videos to understand the problem. I think most Western scholars of different political opinions who study Egypt will understand that reform is not what Sisi meant, atleast not the type of reform those who were praising him were thinking.

    http://www.ibtimes.com/sisi-islam-reform-blasphemy-case-against-reformist-islam-el-beheiry-undercuts-1947460
  • How dictators in the arab world get support in the West
     Reply #15 - June 05, 2015, 01:42 PM

    seriously, what the fuck, so now criticizing Hadith and  jurisprudence schools is blasphemy finmad   do those fucks of al azhar do not understand that by those actions, they are pushing people away from Islam 
  • How dictators in the arab world get support in the West
     Reply #16 - June 05, 2015, 02:19 PM

    A few months ago, Egyptian president Sisi took a view that was seen as a stand for al-Azhar against Islam El-Beheiry who is considered reformist Islamic scholar. Before that happened, Al-Azhar requested a popular show of Islam El-Beheiry to be shut down and pressed charges. Islam El-Beheiry disputed Bukhari. 4 days ago, Islam el-Beheiry was convicted to 5 years.

    http://english.ahram.org.eg/NewsContent/1/64/131684/Egypt/Politics-/Egypt-TV-presenter-Islam-ElBeheiry-criticises-blas.aspx

    When Sisi was in Germany this week, he declared that Egyptians had rejected 'religious fascism'.This is why it isn't enough to read a few articles and watch a few Memri  videos to understand the problem. I think most Western scholars of different political opinions who study Egypt will understand that reform is not what Sisi meant, atleast not the type of reform those who were praising him were thinking.

    http://www.ibtimes.com/sisi-islam-reform-blasphemy-case-against-reformist-islam-el-beheiry-undercuts-1947460



    Let anyone who thinks there is even the remotest possibility that Sisi will encourage reform - think again.

    Sisi is as religiously conservative as they come - in a country which despite appearances of being quite western is very religiously conservative. Sisi is also just like most of our political leaders - just interested in his own power and cynically uses religion to serve his ambitions.
  • How dictators in the arab world get support in the West
     Reply #17 - June 05, 2015, 02:39 PM

    Article 2 of the new Sharia constitution(written after coup) under Sisis Egypt says
    Quote

    Islam is the religion of the state and Arabic is its official language. The principles of Islamic Sharia are the
    principle source of legislation


    http://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/egyptsource/english-translation-of-egypt-s-2013-draft-constitution

    By the way, that article has been there since 1980. Sharia has already been in place for the decades.



  • How dictators in the arab world get support in the West
     Reply #18 - June 05, 2015, 02:54 PM

    This article speaks about a thesis written by General Sisi in 2006
    Quote
    While accepting that there are those who believe that democratic rule "can co-exist in the religious nature of Middle Eastern societies," he quickly points out that there are also those who feel "the tribal culture of the Middle East may not be suitable for democratic rule, as too many factions will emerge. The result will be a fractured society."

    One possible solution he cites is a form of government in place in the Middle East at the time of the Prophet Muhammad. Under that system, writes Sisi, "the Elbaya is the electoral process for choosing the Kalifa [ruler], while the El Shorah advisory and oversight body ? ensures that the [ruler] is carrying out his duties in accordance with Islamic teachings."

    So Sisi considers the Caliphate to be a solution to a 'fractured society'.

    Quote
    Ambassador Henry Cooper, Ronald Reagan's nuclear arms negotiator, brought Sisi's thesis to the attention of Newsmax. While welcoming the moderate tone of much of the general's analysis, Cooper cautioned that it was intended for an American audience over six years ago and included a strong commitment to Sharia law ? "a better indicator will be the new constitution being developed under his leadership."


    http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/egypt-islam-alsisi/2013/08/27/id/522409/
    The new constitution includes Sharia as I pointed out.
  • Re: How dictators in the arab world get support in the West
     Reply #19 - June 05, 2015, 03:42 PM

    seriously, what the fuck, so now criticizing Hadith and  jurisprudence schools is blasphemy finmad   do those fucks of al azhar do not understand that by those actions, they are pushing people away from Islam  

    Im not sure the article mentions the entire reasons that Azhar might have pressed for charging him.In one instance. But it may very well be due to his approach to hadiths.
  • How dictators in the arab world get support in the West
     Reply #20 - June 07, 2015, 03:23 AM

    yes that's correct, it is not from the article, but what i understood from his TV show,  actually El-Beheiry is a " moderate reformist " ( if this word make sense),  he made sure not to criticize Muhammed or the first 4 caliphs, or the infallibility of the Quran, but he really undermined the rest, specially hadith and the early Islamic exegesis.

    but i think his" biggest sin" is when he promote the idea that you don't need to be a scholar from al azhar to understand Quran or to criticize Islamic jurisprudence,  and this idea is extremely dangerous to the established religious order in Egypt.

    so it is not really about "the honor of Islam", but who has the authority to speak about Islam, and power struggle :(
  • How dictators in the arab world get support in the West
     Reply #21 - June 07, 2015, 08:42 AM

    Indeed, when people say that Islam doesn't have a unified church, I think of the scholars role in interpreting Islam. They really are the only ones who are allowed to interpret the Islamic scriptures in some ways. Its one of the biggest obstacles to change,
  • How dictators in the arab world get support in the West
     Reply #22 - June 09, 2015, 02:22 AM

    al-Sisi defended virginity tests

    Quote
    After Mr. Mubarak?s ouster, military forces trying to disperse demonstrators detained a group of women and subjected them to ?virginity tests.? A military intelligence officer named Abdel Fattah el-Sisi publicly defended the practice, arguing that it was necessary to protect soldiers from rape allegations. He is now Egypt?s president.


    http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/11/world/middleeast/egypt-trials-of-spring.html?_r=1
  • How dictators in the arab world get support in the West
     Reply #23 - June 09, 2015, 07:56 PM

    Sisi is what has emerged from the big mess that Egypt is right now. Let's not blame West for this. Of course West will prefer Sisi to Muslim Brotherhood. The last thing West want is a conflict between Egypt and Israel.
  • How dictators in the arab world get support in the West
     Reply #24 - June 09, 2015, 10:11 PM

    1,3 billion in US military aid is a large part of military budget in Egypt. Im just hoping that they understand, and infact the US goverment at the moment seems to understand the problem, but cant find a way to get out.Some other governments may not even see any dilemma.

    The Muslim Brotherhood and the Salafists were losing popularity and it looked like they could've lost the parliamentary election that was due a couple of months before the coup. I think that Sisi will be worse for Israel in the long term.

    btw I don't think Sisi will apply Sharia penalties even though I think he believes in those laws.
  • How dictators in the arab world get support in the West
     Reply #25 - June 09, 2015, 10:12 PM

    Indeed, when people say that Islam doesn't have a unified church, I think of the scholars role in interpreting Islam. They really are the only ones who are allowed to interpret the Islamic scriptures in some ways. Its one of the biggest obstacles to change,


    Yup. Its going to take a lot of work to deal with such an entrenched interest.

    A different approach from the top down and increased salaries for ulema might attract better minds possibly?

    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • How dictators in the arab world get support in the West
     Reply #26 - June 09, 2015, 10:26 PM

    ^I have been thinking about this problem with the ulama/scholars and how to solve it. In order to have a meaningful impact, institutional Islam would have to change. One of the ways I've thought how to do that was to change the curriculum of religious scholars to include philosophy,history,litterature, essentially lots of courses in liberal arts.That would mean also that they'd use critical thinking and analysis as a way to learn. This is why I favour imam programs in Western universities, if they are made properly.Though all of it can't be done in one generation, Western goverments can chose students in Al-Azhar to come and study such courses for one year or more.
  • How dictators in the arab world get support in the West
     Reply #27 - June 10, 2015, 08:59 AM

    1,3 billion in US military aid is a large part of military budget in Egypt. Im just hoping that they understand, and infact the US goverment at the moment seems to understand the problem, but cant find a way to get out.Some other governments may not even see any dilemma.

    The Muslim Brotherhood and the Salafists were losing popularity and it looked like they could've lost the parliamentary election that was due a couple of months before the coup. I think that Sisi will be worse for Israel in the long term.

    btw I don't think Sisi will apply Sharia penalties even though I think he believes in those laws.


    After the Muslim Brotherhood Gaza wing won the elections, there were no more democratic elections. Not to say what was their obvious agenda in Egypt also. We will never know which options would have been better.

    But to think that an organization like that, could rule somehow better or that they could respect democratic principles somehow, is to base this almost entirely on hope.
  • How dictators in the arab world get support in the West
     Reply #28 - June 10, 2015, 11:49 AM

    Quote
    After the Muslim Brotherhood Gaza wing won the elections, there were no more democratic elections. Not to say what was their obvious agenda in Egypt also. We will never know which options would have been better.

    There hasn't been an election in Gaza AND the West Bank. If they won the parliamentary elections why haven't they been in power in the West Bank? After having funded and coordinated a failed election victory for Fatah, the US planned to overthrow Hamas.
    http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/report-u-s-funding-fatah-in-palestinian-elections-1.62877

     
    Quote
     Just how much further matters would be taken was revealed in April 2008. Tom Segev (in Ha?aretz) reported:

        a ?confidential document, a ?talking points? memo,[47] was left by the U.S. consul general in Jerusalem, Jake Walles, on the desk of Mahmoud Abbas . ? According to the paper left behind ? he wanted to pressure Abu Mazen to take action that would annul the outcome of the elections that had catapulted Hamas to power. ? When nothing happened, Walles ? warned the Palestinian president that the time had come to act. Instead, Abu Mazen launched negotiations with Hamas on the establishment of a unity government. ? At this point the Americans moved to "Plan B." That was a plan to eliminate Hamas by force. In fact, it was to be a deliberately fomented civil war Fatah was supposed to win, with U.S. help.? [48]

    In April 2008 Vanity Fair published ?The Gaza Bombshell?:

        ?There is no one more hated among Hamas members than Muhammad Dahlan, long Fatah?s resident strongman in Gaza. Dahlan, who most recently served as Abbas?s national-security adviser, has spent more than a decade battling Hamas. ? Bush has met Dahlan on at least three occasions. After talks at the White House in July 2003, Bush publicly praised Dahlan as ?a good, solid leader.? In private, say multiple Israeli and American officials, the U.S. president described him as ?our guy.?

        Vanity Fair has obtained confidential documents, since corroborated by sources in the U.S. and Palestine, which lay bare a covert initiative, approved by Bush and implemented by Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice and Deputy National Security Adviser Elliott Abrams, to provoke a Palestinian civil war. The plan was for forces led by Dahlan, and armed with new weapons supplied at America?s behest, to give Fatah the muscle it needed to remove the democratically elected Hamas-led government from power. (The State Department declined to comment.)
        Some sources call the scheme ?Iran-contra 2.0,? recalling that Abrams was convicted (and later pardoned) for withholding information from Congress during the original Iran-contra scandal under President Reagan. There are echoes of other past misadventures as well: the C.I.A.?s 1953 ouster of an elected prime minister in Iran, which set the stage for the 1979 Islamic revolution there; the aborted 1961 Bay of Pigs invasion, which gave Fidel Castro an excuse to solidify his hold on Cuba; and the contemporary tragedy in Iraq.[49]

    The Jerusalem Post confirmed that the documents cited by Vanity Fair ?have been corroborated by sources at the US State Department and Palestinian officials?, and added:

        ? The report said that instead of driving its enemies out of power, the US-backed Fatah fighters inadvertently provoked Hamas to seize total control of the Gaza Strip in June 2007. David Wurmser, who resigned as Vice President Dick Cheney's chief Middle East adviser a month after the Hamas takeover, said he believed that Hamas had no intention of taking over the Gaza Strip until Fatah forced its hand. "It looks to me that what happened wasn't so much a coup by Hamas but an attempted coup by Fatah that was preempted before it could happen," he was quoted as saying. Wurmser said that the Bush administration engaged in a "dirty war in an effort to provide a corrupt dictatorship [led by Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas] with victory." Wurmser said he was especially galled by the Bush administration's hypocrisy. "There is a stunning disconnect between the president's call for Middle East democracy and this policy," he said. "It directly contradicts it.".[50]

      

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_legislative_election,_2006

    Quote
    Alistair Crooke, a former MI6 officer who also worked for the EU in Israel and the Palestinian territories, said the British documents reflected a 2003 decision by Tony Blair to tie UK and EU security policy in the West Bank and Gaza to a US-led "counter-insurgency surge" against Hamas ? which backfired when the Islamists won the Palestinian elections in 2006.

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/jan/25/palestine-papers-mi6-hamas-crackdown
  • How dictators in the arab world get support in the West
     Reply #29 - June 10, 2015, 05:44 PM

    Nobody denies whom EU, US, Israel will prefer between Fatah/Sisi and Muslim Brotherhood, fairly elected or not.
    Muslim Brotherhood had and is still governing in Gaza and it is very bad, as you can see...

    We would never know how things would have ended in Egypt, that's the truth. But, you have to admit there was not much hope that things would have had an happy end. The army didn't overthrow a government/party/group with a democratic agenda. On the contrary...  
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