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 Topic: Help! The gypsies are coming

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  • Help! The gypsies are coming
     OP - March 14, 2015, 03:04 PM

    Hi guys! It's really nice to finally be here, with so many smart and interesting people.

    I've seen that it's customary for new people to introduce themselves, so I'll try.

    I'm Romani, female, in my 30s, I was born near the Syrian-Turkish border, raised in the US, usually living in Switzerland, but currently staying with in-laws on the German side of the border. Simple, ain't it? I'm from a mostly Sunni family, and I used to be a closeted agnostic in my youth until I finally decided to read the Qur'an in full and in context. The plan was to become a believer again. Instead, it pushed me further to the atheist side. Reading the six books for myself over time, instead of just having them "explained" to me, confirmed my impressions. I finally came out as a humanist in my 20s. I don't know how much I'll be able to write here because I have a family and some volunteer work to take care of. But I'll do my best.

    The thing that really drove me away from Islam wasn't actually arguments against religion, they didn't matter that much to me back then. It was that the Muslim community regularly gave us the same racist nonsense we were getting from whites. They never recognized us as intelligent humans with agency, so they felt entitled to telling us what to do. In the US, they even discouraged us from interacting with our own ethnic community because most of them were Evangelical Anglo-Roma and contact with them would somehow expose us to bad ideas from white folks. They treated us like parents treat their impressionable children. Both white Christians and Muslims seemed to agree that gypsies were inferior (about that term: some Romani people consider "gypsy" derogatory. I use it because everyone knows what it is, so you may use it with me as long as I don't have to debate our status as full human beings with you. Others of my people may be offended by the word though.). When I read the Qur'an, I was hoping to find the "real", "universal" Islam that accepted us. Instead, I found a whole lot of dehumanization of otherness. It was the same "if you're not like us then you're inferior" in theory that we were getting in practice. I kept thinking, who does this guy from ancient Arabia think he is, telling me that his culture is superior to mine. At that point, I was done with Islam.

    My tentative alternative is humanism - I say tentative because I'm a person who needs community, and humanism only seems to cover the individual aspects of a better future. I guess what I really want hasn't been invented yet. Someone I care about said she wanted to be a rationalist and have a figurative heart at the same time. That's exactly what I want myself and the people around me to be. Rationalists with a big heart who don't leave anyone behind. I'm hoping to get a little better at it every day, and to find others here who might have similar goals, as well as people looking for something different. Diversity is always a good thing.
  • Help! The gypsies are coming
     Reply #1 - March 14, 2015, 03:11 PM

    Welcome! Glad to have you here.  parrot
  • Help! The gypsies are coming
     Reply #2 - March 14, 2015, 03:24 PM

    Whenever I think of the Romani/Roma, sunni islam is the last thing that comes to mind. Is it unusual to have Romani muslims? I mostly think of them as being christian/catholic but infused so much with their own distinct culture. Maybe it's just the ones I've known over the years.

    Welcome to CEMB. parrot

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Help! The gypsies are coming
     Reply #3 - March 14, 2015, 04:26 PM

    Welcome! Glad to have you here.  parrot


    Thank you so much  thnkyu
  • Help! The gypsies are coming
     Reply #4 - March 14, 2015, 04:27 PM

    Whenever I think of the Romani/Roma, sunni islam is the last thing that comes to mind. Is it unusual to have Romani muslims? I mostly think of them as being christian/catholic but infused so much with their own distinct culture. Maybe it's just the ones I've known over the years.

    Welcome to CEMB. parrot


    Thank you Smiley

    The further East you go, the more common it is. Roma who used to live in the Ottoman Empire would normally become Muslims.
  • Help! The gypsies are coming
     Reply #5 - March 14, 2015, 04:37 PM

    The vast majority are in the western world though right? From eastern Europe to the US? They seem to follow a version of christianity on the whole. Is there any issues with the majority christian Roma and the muslim minority? Considering how persecuted not just Roma but any type of gypsy have been throughout history even to this day it would make sense to band together as a people with a shared history, culture and roots but then again how often do humans behave logically? Grin

    I'm mostly asking as I was curious from your comment of Roma muslims being discouraged from interacting with their own ethnic community.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Help! The gypsies are coming
     Reply #6 - March 14, 2015, 04:38 PM

    Welcome to CEMB! I have always been interested in Syrian Romani, and Romani people in general. Your contributions here will certainly be welcomed. Here, have a comforting welcome parrot   parrot

    إطلب العلم ولو في الصين

    Es sitzt keine Krone so fest und so hoch,
    Der mutige Springer erreicht sie doch.

    I don't give a fuck about your war, or your President.
  • Help! The gypsies are coming
     Reply #7 - March 14, 2015, 04:42 PM

    The vast majority are in the western world though right? From eastern Europe to the US? They seem to follow a version of christianity on the whole. Is there any issues with the majority christian Roma and the muslim minority? Considering how persecuted not just Roma but any type of gypsy have been throughout history even to this day it would make sense to band together as a people with a shared history, culture and roots but then again how often do humans behave logically? Grin

    I'm mostly asking as I was curious from your comment of Roma muslims being discouraged from interacting with their own ethnic community.


    The majority of Romani people have historically lived in Europe since the late Middle Ages, but communities remain in the Middle East and even some in India (where they historically originate). Romani were targeted for destruction during the Holocaust, though, and over 1 million were killed (this remains largely unacknowledged, due to the fact that the Zionist lobby doesn't like people to realize that anyone but Jews were targeted for annihilation during the Holocaust). This is has left the communities outside of Europe in closer numerical parity to those inside of Europe.

    إطلب العلم ولو في الصين

    Es sitzt keine Krone so fest und so hoch,
    Der mutige Springer erreicht sie doch.

    I don't give a fuck about your war, or your President.
  • Help! The gypsies are coming
     Reply #8 - March 14, 2015, 04:44 PM

    It's common knowledge how Roma were targeted by the nazis isn't it? Huh?

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Help! The gypsies are coming
     Reply #9 - March 14, 2015, 04:48 PM

    You would think so, but at least in my part of the US people only seem to know that Jews were the targets. Very, very few realize that socialists and communists were the first to go.  And few recognize just how many Roma were done in. Amongst more literate people, I suppose, it is more common knowledge.

    إطلب العلم ولو في الصين

    Es sitzt keine Krone so fest und so hoch,
    Der mutige Springer erreicht sie doch.

    I don't give a fuck about your war, or your President.
  • Help! The gypsies are coming
     Reply #10 - March 14, 2015, 06:25 PM

    Welcome, MaryNeedsNoHail - we're all gypsies here - travellers on the road to who knows where  far away hug
  • Help! The gypsies are coming
     Reply #11 - March 14, 2015, 09:05 PM

    Hi guys! It's really nice to finally be here, with so many smart and interesting people.

    I've seen that it's customary for new people to introduce themselves, so I'll try.

    I'm Romani, female, in my 30s, I was born near the Syrian-Turkish border, raised in the US, usually living in Switzerland, but currently staying with in-laws on the German side of the border. Simple, ain't it? I'm from a mostly Sunni family, and I used to be a closeted agnostic in my youth until I finally decided to read the Qur'an in full and in context. The plan was to become a believer again. Instead, it pushed me further to the atheist side. Reading the six books for myself over time, instead of just having them "explained" to me, confirmed my impressions. I finally came out as a humanist in my 20s. I don't know how much I'll be able to write here because I have a family and some volunteer work to take care of. But I'll do my best.

    The thing that really drove me away from Islam wasn't actually arguments against religion, they didn't matter that much to me back then. It was that the Muslim community regularly gave us the same racist nonsense we were getting from whites. They never recognized us as intelligent humans with agency, so they felt entitled to telling us what to do. In the US, they even discouraged us from interacting with our own ethnic community because most of them were Evangelical Anglo-Roma and contact with them would somehow expose us to bad ideas from white folks. They treated us like parents treat their impressionable children. Both white Christians and Muslims seemed to agree that gypsies were inferior (about that term: some Romani people consider "gypsy" derogatory. I use it because everyone knows what it is, so you may use it with me as long as I don't have to debate our status as full human beings with you. Others of my people may be offended by the word though.). When I read the Qur'an, I was hoping to find the "real", "universal" Islam that accepted us. Instead, I found a whole lot of dehumanization of otherness. It was the same "if you're not like us then you're inferior" in theory that we were getting in practice. I kept thinking, who does this guy from ancient Arabia think he is, telling me that his culture is superior to mine. At that point, I was done with Islam.

    My tentative alternative is humanism - I say tentative because I'm a person who needs community, and humanism only seems to cover the individual aspects of a better future. I guess what I really want hasn't been invented yet. Someone I care about said she wanted to be a rationalist and have a figurative heart at the same time. That's exactly what I want myself and the people around me to be. Rationalists with a big heart who don't leave anyone behind. I'm hoping to get a little better at it every day, and to find others here who might have similar goals, as well as people looking for something different. Diversity is always a good thing.


    It is typical archaic thinking which propagate the divide between humans, us vs them, race vs race, religion vs religion etc. State government love to define people which just propagates the system further. You are a human, that is more than enough for anyone.
  • Help! The gypsies are coming
     Reply #12 - March 14, 2015, 10:45 PM

    Welcome!  Smiley  parrot

    "the question is" said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be the master- that`s all."
    Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking- Glass.
  • Help! The gypsies are coming
     Reply #13 - March 15, 2015, 12:24 AM

    Hi MaryNeedsNoHall,

    Just when you were thinking this place can't possible get more diverse you step in.

    We also have a an Inuit ex-Muslim - "born" Muslim - around (albeit she is not active here these days)

    The stigmatisation Romanis experience is mind-blowing. EU has tried to counter this with programs but everyone forgot about those when the 2008 crisis hit.

    In Denmark we have about 15000 Romanis from Eastern Europe and the Balkans but most say they are from the former Yugoslavia to avoid the stigmatisation (where they according to my Bosnian refugee friends also were treated like shit even under Tito despite him trying to do something about it). We only hear about Romanis ("sigøjnere" - "zigeuner") in the tabloid media when one particular family fucks up again (and again and again and again and again). They never tell about the Romanis fitting just fine into Danish society and working their asses off for both their children and for the society.

    Happy to have you here Smiley I think you just earned this site some diversity prize of the year and it is only March parrot

    Danish Never-Moose adopted by the kind people on the CEMB-forum
    Ex-Muslim chat (Unaffliated with CEMB). Safari users: Use "#ex-muslims" as the channel name. CEMB chat thread.
  • Help! The gypsies are coming
     Reply #14 - March 15, 2015, 04:25 AM

    It is typical archaic thinking which propagate the divide between humans, us vs them, race vs race, religion vs religion etc. State government love to define people which just propagates the system further. You are a human, that is more than enough for anyone.

     Afro

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Help! The gypsies are coming
     Reply #15 - March 15, 2015, 05:05 AM

    You know, I'd never really realized the racism in the Muslim community until I read OP's post. Probably because I was a beneficiary of it.  mysmilie_977

    Jew-turned-Muslim means instant parades showing how "see even this former zionist scum is now a good, observant Muslim because ISLAM'S THE BEST!" The number of Jews-turned-Muslims is small, but they are much more represented in just about every type of media than Inuit or Romani or any other minority community. Also, the separation of mosques by ethnic background is super common. Just about everywhere you have a Muslim population in America, you've got a mosque for the Algerians or a mosque for the Moroccans or a mosque for the Urdu speakers or whatever. Even in "integrated" mosques, you're unlikely to be talked to by anyone outside your ethnic group except to be asked about your ethnic group. That is bad.

    Anyway, have a parrot, and welcome!  parrot

    Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for I have a sonic screwdriver, a tricorder, and a Type 2 phaser.
  • Help! The gypsies are coming
     Reply #16 - March 15, 2015, 05:24 AM

    You sound like a very interesting person.  Welcome!     parrot
  • Help! The gypsies are coming
     Reply #17 - March 15, 2015, 05:41 AM

    some Romani people consider "gypsy" derogatory. I use it because everyone knows what it is,

    The word gypsy/gitan/gitano/tzigane ties you into millennial European culture. Ditch it and you ditch a sound historical claim.

    Raggle Taggle Gypsy
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JyP407UnUWw

    Tzigane
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K71LvN-xZlc

    The French named their most iconic clopes after you...



    Even the Yanks got in on the act...
    Gypsy Man
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VTXiVeqnppU


    (Though I confess it does bother me when I get throat-slitting gestures after politely refusing to give money to beggars in Seville.)
  • Help! The gypsies are coming
     Reply #18 - March 15, 2015, 08:20 AM

    The vast majority are in the western world though right? From eastern Europe to the US? They seem to follow a version of christianity on the whole. Is there any issues with the majority christian Roma and the muslim minority? Considering how persecuted not just Roma but any type of gypsy have been throughout history even to this day it would make sense to band together as a people with a shared history, culture and roots but then again how often do humans behave logically? Grin

    I'm mostly asking as I was curious from your comment of Roma muslims being discouraged from interacting with their own ethnic community.


    There are a lot of Muslim Roma, but I'm not sure how many. The majority are definitely Christian, but to be honest, I don't have reliable numbers and I'm not sure if anyone does. We're not that easy to count. There are populations who are settled and assimilated to varying degrees, there are completely mobile communities, and then there are mobile families who live in houses (but change their place of residence frequently) and de facto settled families who live in mobile homes but stay in the same place. For example, during our first few years in the US, my family used to live in campers, but we'd only move when e.g. harrassment from cops became a serious problem. Bottom line: it's difficult to take an accurate census.

    I've never experienced any hostility from Christian Roma in general. It's more like we were friends with some families, neutral towards other families, and (relatively rarely) had mutual dislike with other families. The things that distinguished us were mainly related to the world outside of the Romani community. They had to deal with white supremacy, while we had to contend with Arab and Turkish "master race" members (see my first comment). Color of skin also makes a difference in that regard, especially in the US. The Anglo-Roma were mixed with Europeans, so they were either light-brown or passed as white. A lot of them identified as things like "half Mexican, half Cuban" when dealing with white folks in the hope of improving their status. That wasn't possible for my family. Roma from our region of origin had a deep distrust of outsiders and therefore strict rules against miscegenation, so we never "blended in" with our host populations. Folks who don't know our ethnicity usually identify us as South Asian ("Pakistani" if they're ignorant and don't know that Pakistani people are lighter skinned, "Tamil" or "Bengali" if they know a little more). But that didn't really play a role within the community. Some of the Christians even asked us for guidance on Romani cultural practices because they believed we were closer to the "original", whatever that's supposed to be.
  • Help! The gypsies are coming
     Reply #19 - March 15, 2015, 08:21 AM

    Welcome to CEMB! I have always been interested in Syrian Romani, and Romani people in general. Your contributions here will certainly be welcomed. Here, have a comforting welcome parrot   parrot


    Thank you very much, that's really nice  Smiley
  • Help! The gypsies are coming
     Reply #20 - March 15, 2015, 08:23 AM

    It is typical archaic thinking which propagate the divide between humans, us vs them, race vs race, religion vs religion etc. State government love to define people which just propagates the system further. You are a human, that is more than enough for anyone.


    That would be the ideal state. Unfortunately, race does exist as a social construct, created by racism. When you have to deal with it you can't afford to pretend that race doesn't exist because it affects your daily life.
  • Help! The gypsies are coming
     Reply #21 - March 15, 2015, 08:25 AM

    Welcome, MaryNeedsNoHail - we're all gypsies here - travellers on the road to who knows where  far away hug


    Thank you, I appreciate the sentiment. But trust me on this, you're much better off not being a gypsy. Unless you want to spend your childhood wishing you could change your ancestry and wash off your brown skin (unless you're among the Roma who pass as white).
  • Help! The gypsies are coming
     Reply #22 - March 15, 2015, 08:26 AM

    Welcome!  Smiley  parrot


    Thank you Smiley
  • Help! The gypsies are coming
     Reply #23 - March 15, 2015, 08:31 AM

    Welcome Mary  parrot
  • Help! The gypsies are coming
     Reply #24 - March 15, 2015, 08:45 AM

    Hi MaryNeedsNoHall,

    Just when you were thinking this place can't possible get more diverse you step in.

    We also have a an Inuit ex-Muslim - "born" Muslim - around (albeit she is not active here these days)

    The stigmatisation Romanis experience is mind-blowing. EU has tried to counter this with programs but everyone forgot about those when the 2008 crisis hit.

    In Denmark we have about 15000 Romanis from Eastern Europe and the Balkans but most say they are from the former Yugoslavia to avoid the stigmatisation (where they according to my Bosnian refugee friends also were treated like shit even under Tito despite him trying to do something about it). We only hear about Romanis ("sigøjnere" - "zigeuner") in the tabloid media when one particular family fucks up again (and again and again and again and again). They never tell about the Romanis fitting just fine into Danish society and working their asses off for both their children and for the society.

    Happy to have you here Smiley I think you just earned this site some diversity prize of the year and it is only March parrot


    Thank you, that's very kind. It's really cool to meet people from such different backgrounds, and to have your own background appreciated Smiley

    We experienced many of the same things in the US. Hilary can claim our people are integrated there all she wants, but that wasn't my experience. There may be no official national policy of antiziganism like in some European countries, but we got pretty overt hostility from folks like cops and store owners. School wasn't pleasant for most of my relatives either. I got lucky in that regard. My parents sent me to better schools than my siblings (because they were hoping that would enable me to find an educated African or Asian American Muslim and "marry up" for the benefit of the family). So I was the only Romani child there, and I got treated like a kind of (non-intelligent) pet or mascot. Which involved some awkwardness, but was still way better than what the others had to put up with.

    The one pleasant surprise were African Americans. They treated us not just as equals but as friends. Maybe they saw what we had to put up with and recognized something of themselves in it. For example, when the cops raided our camp every couple of weeks to "search for drugs" and emptied all our water bottles, people from the Black community would bring us new ones. I'll never forget that.
  • Help! The gypsies are coming
     Reply #25 - March 15, 2015, 09:16 AM

    You know, I'd never really realized the racism in the Muslim community until I read OP's post. Probably because I was a beneficiary of it.  mysmilie_977

    Jew-turned-Muslim means instant parades showing how "see even this former zionist scum is now a good, observant Muslim because ISLAM'S THE BEST!" The number of Jews-turned-Muslims is small, but they are much more represented in just about every type of media than Inuit or Romani or any other minority community. Also, the separation of mosques by ethnic background is super common. Just about everywhere you have a Muslim population in America, you've got a mosque for the Algerians or a mosque for the Moroccans or a mosque for the Urdu speakers or whatever. Even in "integrated" mosques, you're unlikely to be talked to by anyone outside your ethnic group except to be asked about your ethnic group. That is bad.

    Anyway, have a parrot, and welcome!  parrot


    Thanks a lot Smiley

    You're right about segregation in mosques, and that extends to mixed communities in general. What I observed in pretty much every place was that Arab (even those who were technically Berber) and Turkish folks felt entitled to running the place. They weren't hiding the fact that they considered everyone else part of their empire. Even their women and girls were always talking down to us. And they created a racial hierarchy where Asian folks got relatively little harrassment, South Asians got a little more, Black people even more, and gypsies, well... let's just say they were always there to police our lives and make sure we weren't committing any sins. When they needed something cleaned or food prepared, they just came and ordered our women to do it.

    My parents, who unlike me have lived in the Middle-East, actually consider white supremacy the lesser evil compared to that. I personally don't want to have to choose between the two.
  • Help! The gypsies are coming
     Reply #26 - March 15, 2015, 10:18 AM

    Welcome to the forum, MaryNeedsNoHail. Hope you like it here Smiley

    He's no friend to the friendless
    And he's the mother of grief
    There's only sorrow for tomorrow
    Surely life is too brief
  • Help! The gypsies are coming
     Reply #27 - March 15, 2015, 01:11 PM

    Hi Mary,

    welcome to the forum  parrot
  • Help! The gypsies are coming
     Reply #28 - March 15, 2015, 03:02 PM

    That would be the ideal state. Unfortunately, race does exist as a social construct, created by racism. When you have to deal with it you can't afford to pretend that race doesn't exist because it affects your daily life.


    Yes but using a term which has no real basis just propagates such terms as acceptable to use. It would be better to just unify all forms of discrimination under one term such as discrimination. It would make those "racist" look even more silly by clearly pointing out they have no basis for their views along with the term itself becoming nonsensical.
  • Help! The gypsies are coming
     Reply #29 - March 15, 2015, 08:13 PM

    Maybe that's a discussion for another thread, bogart.  Intro threads are usually kept for getting to know each other chat.   Interesting topic though, maybe one for the philosophy forum.

    Welcome Mary, here's your introductory parrot.   parrot

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
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