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 Topic: Are peaceful Muslims in denial about their religion?

 (Read 3098 times)
  • 1« Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Are peaceful Muslims in denial about their religion?
     OP - March 06, 2015, 05:10 PM

    http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/are-peaceful-muslims-in-denial-about-their-religion-10084960.html

    Quote

    Isis has sharpened many people's sense of paranoia towards Islam. The majority of Muslims have a peaceful reading of the Koran, but as Isis commits more and more atrocities, the argument that the Koran equally invites a violent interpretation of its teachings has begun to gain ground.

    A quick internet search that throws up certain passages which, read at face value, could prove these suspicions correct. For example, critics of Islam often cite verses such as: "fight such of the disbelievers as are near to you"; or to "kill the idolaters wherever you find them". Passages such as these leave an impartial observer wondering — is Islam simply a matter of interpretation? Is the line between a peaceful Muslim and a terrorist simply a matter of which verses you follow and which you ignore?

    No, is the emphatic answer of the Koran. Whether Islam is peaceful or extreme is not just a matter of interpretation, and for the simple reason that the Koran tells you exactly how to interpret it. Once you’ve read how it works, you’ll understand exactly why the verses above aren’t actually calling for "Death to the West", but are in fact completely reasonable in their context. If that sounds far-fetched, then keep reading.

    The Koran clearly states that it contains two types of verses: context-independent verses, and context-dependent verses. Context-independent verses are unambiguous and timeless principles which can be applied in every situation. Context-dependent verses are those that are specific to particular situations, and can’t be read in isolation. The Koran then goes on to condemn those who cherry-pick verses to suit their own selfish ends, and tells its reader to take all the verses together before coming to any conclusions.

    "Peace" is one of the literal meanings of Islam, and its ultimate aim. And as such, it explicitly teaches that there is no compulsion in matters of faith. Regarding war, it teaches that Muslims are only ever allowed permitted to fight defensively, stating that "permission to fight is given to those against whom war is made, because they have been wronged – and Allah indeed has the power to help them".

    The verses that are often quoted by critics are, like those at the beginning, cherry-picked context-dependent verses. They were only applicable at a time when war had been openly declared against Muslims because of their faith. They were being driven out of their homes and routinely assassinated. "Fight them until there is no persecution and religion is freely professed for Allah", says the Koran. But if they stop oppressing you, it warns, then remember that "no hostility is allowed except against the aggressors". Verses such as these mention fighting "disbelievers" because the division of the two sides was one of belief – non-Muslims who were the aggressors, and Muslims, who were being killed for their acceptance of Islam.

    As for how Muslims should co-exist with peaceful people of other beliefs, the Koran couldn’t be clearer: "Allah only forbids you from those who fight you because of religion and expel you from your homes". For everyone else, it is taught that you should be kind and act fairly towards them.

    So just to be clear: Islam is not simply a matter of interpretation, because the Koran itself tells us how to interpret it. Any other interpretation is either willfully dishonest or just plain ignorant.

    Once this has been accepted, then can we recognise the evil of Isis without letting them divide us? It is unity across diversity that is the best way to defeat them. Repel evil with that which is best, says the Koran (or: don't stoop to their level). And this is something that I hope we can all agree on, regardless of our religious beliefs.




    Ugh, this article annoys me to no end.

    You are the Universe, Expressing itself as a Human for a little while- Eckhart Tolle
  • Are peaceful Muslims in denial about their religion?
     Reply #1 - March 06, 2015, 05:17 PM

    It is sophistry and hand-waving.
  • Are peaceful Muslims in denial about their religion?
     Reply #2 - March 06, 2015, 05:25 PM

    Are peaceful Muslims in denial about their religion?.


    Yes.
  • Are peaceful Muslims in denial about their religion?
     Reply #3 - March 06, 2015, 05:28 PM



    Why does it annoy you? It sounds like the writer understands islam better than most muslims. Which part doesn't sound right to you?
  • Are peaceful Muslims in denial about their religion?
     Reply #4 - March 06, 2015, 05:46 PM

    Why does it annoy you? It sounds like the writer understands islam better than most muslims. Which part doesn't sound right to you?


    Like bogart said, it's sophistry and the writer himself is in denial. The article is complete non sense and chooses to ignore adressing that there are actual problems with the verses in the Quran.

    Quote
    ""Peace" is one of the literal meanings of Islam"

    It's complete nonsense, Islam does not mean peace. The writer is deliberately misleading the reader.

    Quote
    "non-Muslims who were the aggressors, and Muslims, who were being killed for their acceptance of Islam."

    It's painting this like "Oh poor Muslims, we were persecuted and innocent. Feel bad for us. We HAD to defend ourselves. We needed those verses." image.
    Because Islam did not go on a crusade to make sure everyone converted to Islam by putting a sword to their necks. Got it.

    You are the Universe, Expressing itself as a Human for a little while- Eckhart Tolle
  • Are peaceful Muslims in denial about their religion?
     Reply #5 - March 06, 2015, 05:47 PM

    "Are peaceful Ahmadiyyas in denial about their religion?"

    FTFH.

    (Adam Walker is national spokesperson for the Ahmadiyya Muslim Youth Association)

    Danish Never-Moose adopted by the kind people on the CEMB-forum
    Ex-Muslim chat (Unaffliated with CEMB). Safari users: Use "#ex-muslims" as the channel name. CEMB chat thread.
  • Are peaceful Muslims in denial about their religion?
     Reply #6 - March 06, 2015, 05:51 PM

    Yes.


    Good answer.

    Quote from: ex-sunni
    Why does it annoy you? It sounds like the writer understands islam better than most muslims. Which part doesn't sound right to you?


    I had an initial reaction as you did when I first read it, until we got deeper into the matter. I shall attempt to outline the issues here.

    Since it is, as bogart stated above, a play with ideas. Picking the artificially constructed roses out of a massive dump. Islam has so much more wrong with it, that the article above is meaningless on the mass scale.

    Anyway taking it in isolation, assuming there is nothing else wrong and we are only looking at the verses such as those listed in the article, it seems to suggest that the issue is not of interpretation but rather there are verses which are ambiguous and thus need further contextual reading. Now assuming the Quran is clear and easy to understand, I would say there would be little or few alternative interpretations of the scripture. Taking this into account, violent interpretations should be - and then are - highly limited. However, the issue is then how people address those limited cases - it is usually via the no true scotsman fallacy.

    What Ishtar90 is attempting to say here is they should be intellectually honest - address the core issues in a reasonable and logical fashion. Not just brush them under the carpet and pretend nothing is wrong from either of the perspectives mentioned above. This is most certainly the primary aspect she is finding maddening in this article.

    One only acquires wisdom when one sets the heart and mind open to new ideas.

    Chat: http://client01.chat.mibbit.com/#ex-muslims
  • Are peaceful Muslims in denial about their religion?
     Reply #7 - March 06, 2015, 06:04 PM

    Quote from: PhysMath
    I had an initial reaction as you did when I first read it, until we got deeper into the matter. I shall attempt to outline the issues here.

    Since it is, as bogart stated above, a play with ideas. Picking the artificially constructed roses out of a massive dump. Islam has so much more wrong with it, that the article above is meaningless on the mass scale.

    Anyway taking it in isolation, assuming there is nothing else wrong and we are only looking at the verses such as those listed in the article, it seems to suggest that the issue is not of interpretation but rather there are verses which are ambiguous and thus need further contextual reading. Now assuming the Quran is clear and easy to understand, I would say there would be little or few alternative interpretations of the scripture. Taking this into account, violent interpretations should be - and then are - highly limited. However, the issue is then how people address those limited cases - it is usually via the no true scotsman fallacy.

    What Ishtar90 is attempting to say here is they should be intellectually honest - address the core issues in a reasonable and logical fashion. Not just brush them under the carpet and pretend nothing is wrong from either of the perspectives mentioned above. This is most certainly the primary aspect she is finding maddening in this article.


    Ok I got the issue with the article now, thanks for the clarification.
  • Are peaceful Muslims in denial about their religion?
     Reply #8 - March 06, 2015, 06:06 PM

    It sounds like the writer understands islam better than most muslims.


    Unfortunately, that isn't saying much.
  • Are peaceful Muslims in denial about their religion?
     Reply #9 - March 06, 2015, 06:14 PM

    Why I had this just today from an African Muslimah over here with poor English lamenting about her continent. "Muslims killing Muslims are not Muslims. Islam means peace" blah blah blah, didn't even want to go there so I quickly moved it along.
  • Are peaceful Muslims in denial about their religion?
     Reply #10 - March 06, 2015, 06:26 PM

    "Are peaceful Ahmadiyyas in denial about their religion?"




    Considering Ahmadiyyas deem anyone which rejects their new prophet as the real deal the majority of the people identified as Muslim are not Muslim. This is how their PR works, they present a certain view while omitting private views. Also the very fact that Ahmadiyyas have a second prophet with new views demolishes the view that the Quran interprets itself. There would be no need for a second prophet. Also the very doctrine of their sect is based on new views and revitalizing old views of Islam which is no longer in the mainstream. There is also the tradition of exegesis which is centuries old in mainstream Islam which further proves the amount of sophistry put into the articles are due to ignorance, either willful or not. Tradition which they accept as a matter of fact and faith.

    The article hinges on the ignorance of the audience on the doctrine and divide within Islam in order to present their doctrine as the "true" form of Islam. It also places a bet that Western criticism will be the focus point while hoping the audience ignores that many Muslims themselves are committing these horrible acts. The Western critics are just pointing what what radical Muslim themselves have claimed about Islam.
  • Are peaceful Muslims in denial about their religion?
     Reply #11 - March 06, 2015, 06:43 PM

    Quote
    ...I just want to say that becoming an atheist from Ahmadi has its advantages. Ahmadis will not kill me for leaving ahmadiat and muslims will not kill because I was already a kafir Smiley

    - some comment I met on teh Internet

    Danish Never-Moose adopted by the kind people on the CEMB-forum
    Ex-Muslim chat (Unaffliated with CEMB). Safari users: Use "#ex-muslims" as the channel name. CEMB chat thread.
  • Are peaceful Muslims in denial about their religion?
     Reply #12 - March 07, 2015, 01:41 AM

    Why does it annoy you? It sounds like the writer understands islam better than most muslims. Which part doesn't sound right to you?

    The entire thing is bullshit.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Are peaceful Muslims in denial about their religion?
     Reply #13 - March 07, 2015, 10:58 AM

    Why does it annoy you? It sounds like the writer understands islam better than most muslims. Which part doesn't sound right to you?

    The parts about Islam meaning peace. There is no such meaning given to the word ''Islam''
  • Are peaceful Muslims in denial about their religion?
     Reply #14 - March 07, 2015, 11:26 AM

    It's bullshit because most of the language used in any ancient religious text such as, kill, wrath, hell, torture, unbelievers, sins, etc, are not words that we would consider ethical, nor even spiritual today.  You'd have to sift through the text, pick out the bits that suit, blindly disregard the rest if you wanted to follow any of those books, they belong in the past.
  • Are peaceful Muslims in denial about their religion?
     Reply #15 - March 07, 2015, 11:34 AM

    It's bullshit because most of the language used in any ancient religious text such as, kill, wrath, hell, torture, unbelievers, sins, etc, are not words that we would consider ethical, nor even spiritual today.  You'd have to sift through the text, pick out the bits that suit, blindly disregard the rest if you wanted to follow any of those books, they belong in the past.


    Takbeer!! "Truth has come, and falsehood has perished!!"
  • Are peaceful Muslims in denial about their religion?
     Reply #16 - March 07, 2015, 02:52 PM

    It's bullshit because most of the language used in any ancient religious text such as, kill, wrath, hell, torture, unbelievers, sins, etc, are not words that we would consider ethical, nor even spiritual today.  You'd have to sift through the text, pick out the bits that suit, blindly disregard the rest if you wanted to follow any of those books, they belong in the past.


    Spot on

    One only acquires wisdom when one sets the heart and mind open to new ideas.

    Chat: http://client01.chat.mibbit.com/#ex-muslims
  • Are peaceful Muslims in denial about their religion?
     Reply #17 - March 07, 2015, 03:38 PM

    It's bullshit because most of the language used in any ancient religious text such as, kill, wrath, hell, torture, unbelievers, sins, etc, are not words that we would consider ethical, nor even spiritual today.  You'd have to sift through the text, pick out the bits that suit, blindly disregard the rest if you wanted to follow any of those books, they belong in the past.


     Hear ye

    You are the Universe, Expressing itself as a Human for a little while- Eckhart Tolle
  • Are peaceful Muslims in denial about their religion?
     Reply #18 - March 07, 2015, 04:05 PM

    It's bullshit because most of the language used in any ancient religious text such as, kill, wrath, hell, torture, unbelievers, sins, etc, are not words that we would consider ethical, nor even spiritual today.  You'd have to sift through the text, pick out the bits that suit, blindly disregard the rest if you wanted to follow any of those books, they belong in the past.

    Perfect.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Are peaceful Muslims in denial about their religion?
     Reply #19 - March 07, 2015, 04:39 PM

    It's bullshit because most of the language used in any ancient religious text such as, kill, wrath, hell, torture, unbelievers, sins, etc, are not words that we would consider ethical, nor even spiritual today.  You'd have to sift through the text, pick out the bits that suit, blindly disregard the rest if you wanted to follow any of those books, they belong in the past.
     
    Quote


    I say those words are not from normal people. I think suki  is possessed by either jinn or allah.  Let me see whether suki can tell us who possessed her ..lol...

    with best wishes
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Are peaceful Muslims in denial about their religion?
     Reply #20 - March 07, 2015, 05:58 PM

    Woah what happened here lol..    thnx  : ) 

    xxxx
  • Are peaceful Muslims in denial about their religion?
     Reply #21 - March 07, 2015, 06:03 PM

    You got a spot on CEMB Greatest Hits. yes I was going to add your post myself before I saw yeez had beat me to it,

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Are peaceful Muslims in denial about their religion?
     Reply #22 - March 07, 2015, 08:22 PM

    ^Ha ha that's my first everrrrrr lol too funny 

    x
  • Are peaceful Muslims in denial about their religion?
     Reply #23 - March 07, 2015, 10:13 PM

    Well deserved. Afro

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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