Skip navigation
Sidebar -

Advanced search options →

Welcome

Welcome to CEMB forum.
Please login or register. Did you miss your activation email?

Donations

Help keep the Forum going!
Click on Kitty to donate:

Kitty is lost

Recent Posts


Qur'anic studies today
Today at 06:50 AM

Do humans have needed kno...
April 20, 2024, 12:02 PM

Lights on the way
by akay
April 19, 2024, 04:40 PM

اضواء على الطريق ....... ...
by akay
April 19, 2024, 12:50 PM

Do humans have needed kno...
April 19, 2024, 04:17 AM

What's happened to the fo...
by zeca
April 18, 2024, 06:39 PM

New Britain
April 18, 2024, 05:41 PM

Iran launches drones
April 13, 2024, 09:56 PM

عيد مبارك للجميع! ^_^
by akay
April 12, 2024, 04:01 PM

Eid-Al-Fitr
by akay
April 12, 2024, 12:06 PM

Mock Them and Move on., ...
January 30, 2024, 10:44 AM

Pro Israel or Pro Palesti...
January 29, 2024, 01:53 PM

Theme Changer

 Topic: "Allah Will Destroy Interest"

 (Read 2656 times)
  • 1« Previous thread | Next thread »
  • "Allah Will Destroy Interest"
     OP - March 05, 2015, 09:06 PM

    The Qur'an states the following on riba:

    “ That they took riba, though they were forbidden and that they devoured men's substance wrongfully – We have prepared for those among men who reject faith a grievous punishment (Quran 4:161) ”
    “ Those who charge riba are in the same position as those controlled by the devil's influence. This is because they claim that riba is the same as commerce. However, God permits commerce, and prohibits riba. Thus, whoever heeds this commandment from his Lord, and refrains from riba, he may keep his past earnings, and his judgement rests with God. As for those who persist in riba, they incur Hell, wherein they abide forever (Quran 2:275) ”
    “ God condemns riba, and blesses charities. God dislikes every disbeliever, guilty. Lo! those who believe and do good works and establish worship and pay the poor-due, their reward is with their Lord and there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve. O you who believe, you shall observe God and refrain from all kinds of riba, if you are believers. If you do not, then expect a war from God and His messenger. But if you repent, you may keep your capitals, without inflicting injustice, or incurring injustice. If the debtor is unable to pay, wait for a better time. If you give up the loan as a charity, it would be better for you, if you only knew. (Quran 2:276-280) ”
    “ O you who believe, you shall not take riba, compounded over and over. Observe God, that you may succeed. (Quran 3:130) ”
    “ And for practising riba, which was forbidden, and for consuming the people's money illicitly. We have prepared for the disbelievers among them painful retribution. (Quran 4:161) ”
    “ The riba that is practised to increase some people's wealth, does not gain anything at God. But if people give to charity, seeking God's pleasure, these are the ones who receive their reward many fold. (Quran 30:39)


     I was thinking about the implications of these verses.  As I Muslim, I took the prohibition on interest in the same way that I took the prohibition on pork –literally – and avoided all interest transactions. I did not even own a credit card. I was always aware, however, of how dependent the modern world is on interest-based financial transactions.

    As I began losing my faith, the prohibition seemed utterly ridiculous. As I think about it now, I wonder if Muhammad (or the Qur’an’s authors) realized just how radical a prohibition this was. If truly followed, it would mean the collapse of our economic model. I have to wonder if he (they) were really only shortsightedly thinking about the needs of the immediate growing Muslim community or if a radically different world economic system was envisioned.

    How did you deal with the prohibition on interest as a Muslim? What do you think the intention was behind banning all interest dealings? Could this even work on a practical, global level?
  • "Allah Will Destroy Interest"
     Reply #1 - March 05, 2015, 10:03 PM

    I never had a credit card since I'm still a student. But I have a savings account, I got intrest there, I gave the intrest money away to the poor.
  • "Allah Will Destroy Interest"
     Reply #2 - March 05, 2015, 10:11 PM

    Look up about positive money! Actually interst and rent seeking are probably the main way the rich get rich - charging interest on money created electronically is very impressive!

    Do we need the rich?

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • "Allah Will Destroy Interest"
     Reply #3 - March 05, 2015, 11:12 PM

    Prohibiting usury was a standard moral theory across Antiquity.  Aristotle himself inveighed against it, in his Politics.

    "The most hated sort, and with the greatest reason, is usury, which makes a gain out of money itself, and not from the natural object of it. For money was intended to be used in exchange, but not to increase at interest. And this term interest, which means the birth of money from money, is applied to the breeding of money because the offspring resembles the parent. Wherefore of all modes of getting wealth this is the most unnatural.”
  • "Allah Will Destroy Interest"
     Reply #4 - March 05, 2015, 11:24 PM

    So do you suspect the authors of the Quran were simply copying an existing moral framework?
  • "Allah Will Destroy Interest"
     Reply #5 - March 05, 2015, 11:29 PM

    That was the default moral framework of most of Antiquity.  The Qur'an is just repeating that standard framework. 

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usury

    Even in medieval Christianity, interest was prohibited as immoral and sinful, which is why it was largely left to the Jews (though the Torah also forbids usury), until the Italian Renaissance (where the Catholic Church lost its sway over powerful families).
  • "Allah Will Destroy Interest"
     Reply #6 - March 06, 2015, 03:31 AM

    happymurtad puts out a very important subject of Islam /Quran/Muslim/non-Muslim society
    The Qur'an states the following on riba:

    “ That they took riba, though they were forbidden and that they devoured men's substance wrongfully – We have prepared for those among men who reject faith a grievous punishment (Quran 4:161) ”
    “ Those who charge riba are in the same position as those controlled by the devil's influence. This is because they claim that riba is the same as commerce. However, God permits commerce, and prohibits riba. Thus, whoever heeds this commandment from his Lord, and refrains from riba, he may keep his past earnings, and his judgement rests with God. As for those who persist in riba, they incur Hell, wherein they abide forever (Quran 2:275) ”
    “ God condemns riba, and blesses charities. God dislikes every disbeliever, guilty. Lo! those who believe and do good works and establish worship and pay the poor-due, their reward is with their Lord and there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve. O you who believe, you shall observe God and refrain from all kinds of riba, if you are believers. If you do not, then expect a war from God and His messenger. But if you repent, you may keep your capitals, without inflicting injustice, or incurring injustice. If the debtor is unable to pay, wait for a better time. If you give up the loan as a charity, it would be better for you, if you only knew. (Quran 2:276-280) ”
    Quote
    “ O you who believe, you shall not take riba, compounded over and over. Observe God, that you may succeed. (Quran 3:130) ”
    “ And for practising riba, which was forbidden, and for consuming the people's money illicitly. We have prepared for the disbelievers among them painful retribution. (Quran 4:161) ”  
    “ The riba that is practised to increase some people's wealth, does not gain anything at God. But if people give to charity, seeking God's pleasure, these are the ones who receive their reward many fold. (Quran 30:39) [/i] /quote]

     ......... Could this even work on a practical, global level?



    I am not sure whether it really works or not and I don't care,  but I WISH WHOLE GLOBE IMPLEMENTS THOSE RIBA rules of Quran  for all   high school and college students. They all should have interest free loans  and it should be implemented all over the globe.  

    That will make huge difference to the welfare of human race on this little planet..   Anyways as i say often.. Quran and Muhammad of Quran is nothing to do with Islam/Islamic rules that we see since the alleged death of prophet of Islam.  

    As far  as what happyM said below is concerned
    Quote
    I was thinking about the implications of these verses.  As I Muslim, I took the prohibition on interest in the same way that I took the prohibition on pork –literally – and avoided all interest transactions. I did not even own a credit card. I was always aware, however, of how dependent the modern world is on interest-based financial transactions.

    As I began losing my faith, the prohibition seemed utterly ridiculous. As I think about it now, I wonder if Muhammad (or the Qur’an’s authors) realized just how radical a prohibition this was. If truly followed, it would mean the collapse of our economic model. I have to wonder if he (they) were really only shortsightedly thinking about the needs of the immediate growing Muslim community or if a radically different world economic system was envisioned.

    How did you deal with the prohibition on interest as a Muslim? What do you think the intention was behind banning all interest dealings? Could this even work on a practical, global level?

    I will smite the word "Muhammad"  from it because there was no Muhammad  and indeed authors of Quran just copied things that were already there before the birth of Islam.

    let me give some links here before I read those verses again at later posts..

    1). The morals of money-lending

    2).Is Banking Criminal? What the World's Ancient Philosophers & Religions Say:

    3). A Brief History of Interest

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • "Allah Will Destroy Interest"
     Reply #7 - March 06, 2015, 03:57 AM

    As I began losing my faith, the prohibition seemed utterly ridiculous. As I think about it now, I wonder if Muhammad (or the Qur’an’s authors) realized just how radical a prohibition this was. If truly followed, it would mean the collapse of our economic model. I have to wonder if he (they) were really only shortsightedly thinking about the needs of the immediate growing Muslim community or if a radically different world economic system was envisioned.

    How did you deal with the prohibition on interest as a Muslim? What do you think the intention was behind banning all interest dealings? Could this even work on a practical, global level?



    Yeah, this shit just doesn't work on any practical economic level. Even "Islamic" banks and shit end up having to have fees or something that just ends up taking the place of interest. Its a load of crock, but as has been mentioned one that was shared with Christian theologians as well in antiquity. Whatevs.

    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • "Allah Will Destroy Interest"
     Reply #8 - March 06, 2015, 09:50 AM

    My point is that it is not a load of crock! If we are serious about a just and equal world the privatisation of the common wealth is not a good idea. The problem is actually religions claiming sovereignty in ethics.

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • "Allah Will Destroy Interest"
     Reply #9 - March 06, 2015, 09:54 AM

    So do you suspect the authors of the Quran were simply copying an existing moral framework?


    And mangling it in their interests. Probably based on the tyrant model

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • "Allah Will Destroy Interest"
     Reply #10 - March 06, 2015, 09:56 AM

    And allegedly mainstream economics is impressively religious, with doctrines like the free hand of the market.

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • "Allah Will Destroy Interest"
     Reply #11 - March 06, 2015, 10:07 AM

    That monetary article is brilliant! Interest is actually Frankenstein's monster!

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • "Allah Will Destroy Interest"
     Reply #12 - March 06, 2015, 01:46 PM

    well on that riba,  usury, interest on loans.. whatever you call., that  Quran writers wanted destroy through allah/Islam/allah followers   let me add and read those  verses carefully..

    Quote
    (1)(Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #275):  Those who eat Riba (usury) will not stand (on the Day of Resurrection) except like the standing of a person beaten by Shaitan (Satan) leading him to insanity. That is because they say: "Trading is only like Riba (usury)," whereas Allah has permitted trading and forbidden Riba (usury). So whosoever receives an admonition from his Lord and stops eating Riba (usury) shall not be punished for the past; his case is for Allah (to judge); but whoever returns [to Riba (usury)], such are the dwellers of the Fire - they will abide therein.

    (2)(Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #276):  Allah will destroy Riba (usury) and will give increase for Sadaqat (deeds of charity, alms, etc.) And Allah likes not the disbelievers, sinners.

    (3)(Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #278): O you who believe! Be afraid of Allah and give up what remains (due to you) from Riba (usury) (from now onward), if you are (really) believers.

    (4) (Aal-e-Imran, Chapter #3, Verse #130): O you who believe! Eat not Riba (usury) doubled and multiplied, but fear Allah that you may be successful.

    (5)( An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #161): And their taking of Riba (usury) though they were forbidden from taking it and their devouring of men's substance wrongfully (bribery). And We have prepared for the disbelievers among them a painful torment.


    (6)( Al-Maeda, Chapter #5, Verse #62):  And you see many of them (Jews) hurrying towards sin and transgression, and eating illegal things [as bribes and Riba (usury)]. Evil indeed is that which they have been doing.

    (7) ( Al-Anaam, Chapter #6, Verse #146)  And unto those who are Jews, We forbade every (animal) with undivided hoof, and We forbade them the fat of the ox and the sheep except what adheres to their backs or their entrails, or is mixed up with a bone. Thus We recompensed them for their rebellion [committing crimes like murdering the Prophets and eating of Riba (usury)]. And verily, We are Truthful.

    (8)Al-Isra, Chapter #17, Verse #64): "And befool them gradually those whom you can among them with your voice (i.e. songs, music, and any other call for Allah's disobedience), make assaults on them with your cavalry and your infantry, share with them wealth and children (by tempting them to earn money by illegal ways - usury, or by committing illegal sexual intercourse), and make promises to them." But Satan promises them nothing but deceit.


    (9)Ar-Room, Chapter #30, Verse #39):    And that which you give in gift (to others), in order that it may increase (your wealth by expecting to get a better one in return) from other people's property, has no increase with Allah; but that which you give in Zakat (sadaqa - charity etc.) seeking Allah's Countenance, then those, they shall have manifold increase.


    Well we can find such direct and indirect verses on riba in Quran from different chapters but to make a story from such verses one must read at least 5 verses above and 5 verses below the verse of your interest..

    anyways let add a pdf file that is useful on riba  here  A short review of the historical critique of usury

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • "Allah Will Destroy Interest"
     Reply #13 - March 06, 2015, 05:13 PM

    This thread is really wheting my appetite, ecomomic model discussions are one of my favourite topics maybe even more so than Isamic ones but have this one has got Islam in it too.

    And allegedly mainstream economics is impressively religious, with doctrines like the free hand of the market.

    LOL Moi, I totally agree, have we been watching the same tube documentaries? To an extent this 'Self correcting' Free hand is true but what we rarely tend to hear being mentioned is the fall out/colatoral damage/human misery caused in order to for the market to steady ship again.

    Our current economic model clearly is set up in such away as to reward those who can do well at accumulating wealth i.e the 'Ownership class'. I think it's fair to say that with the rapid rise in automation the rich won't even need so many poor working for them anymore, they'll just become a burden.
    Population growth can only lead to a widening wealth gap between the rich and poor. Perhaps it's time someone told all those poor people around the world that it may not be such a good idea to have all those childern to support themselves in their old age after all.
    Final thought for now, as Moi already hypothesis, "Do we really need the rich after all?"

  • "Allah Will Destroy Interest"
     Reply #14 - March 07, 2015, 11:30 AM

    Quote
    Packed with useful information and insights, this is a useful complement to Thomas Pikkety’s Capital in the Twenty First Century, and makes a serious challenge to the many claims propagated by rich people and their minions."
    Tax Justice Network
    "This timely and important book exposes the pernicious influence of the super rich on our economic and social fabric. It underlines the need for radical action to redistribute wealth, rebalance our economy and tackle inequality. A must read for politicians and policymakers alike"
    Frances O'Grady, TUC General Secretary
    "A refreshing antidote to a public discourse that has allowed the perpetrators of the financial crisis to make massive gains, while the full burden of costs falls on those innocent of its causes. A must-read for all those who want to reverse that injustice and a wake-up call for the rich."
    Ann Pettifor, Director, Prime: Policy research in macroeconomics
    "Sayer puts forth a cogent and thoroughly convincing argument that will enlighten and inform—and may even help instigate the radical changes he puts forth."
    Publishers Weekly
    About This Book

    As inequalities widen and the effects of austerity deepen, in many countries the wealth of the rich has soared. Why we can’t afford the rich exposes the unjust and dysfunctional mechanisms that allow the top 1% to siphon off wealth produced by others, through the control of property and money. Leading social scientist Andrew Sayer shows how over the last three decades the rich worldwide have increased their ability to hide their wealth, create indebtedness and expand their political influence. Written accessibly for a wide readership, this important book uses simple distinctions to burst the myth of the rich as specially talented wealth creators. Furthermore, as the risk of runaway climate change grows, it shows how the rich are threatening the planet by banking on unsustainable growth. The author forcefully argues that the crises of economy and climate can only be resolved by radical change to make economies sustainable, fair and conducive to well-being for all.

    Author Biography

    Andrew Sayer is Professor of Social Theory and Political Economy at Lancaster University, UK. He has a long-standing interest in moral economy and has written several books on political economy, inequality, class, and philosophy and ethics, including Radical Political Economy: A Critique (Blackwell, 1995); The Moral Significance of Class (2005) and Why Things Matter to People: Social Science, Values and Ethical Life (2011) (both Cambridge University Press).
    Contents

    Introduction

    Part I: A Guide to Wealth Extraction
    Slippery Terms and Vital Distinctions
    For rent . . . for what?
    Interest . . . for what? or We need to talk about usury
    Profit from production: or capitalists and rentiers: what’s the difference?
    Other ways to skin a cat
    Don’t the Rich Create Jobs? –
    and other objections

    Part II: Putting the Rich in Context: What Determines What People Get?
    To what do we owe our wealth?: Our dependence on the commons
    So what determines pay?
    The myth of the level playing field

    Part III: How the Rich Got Richer: Their Part in the Crisis
    The roots of the crisis
    Key winners
    Summing up: the crisis and the return of the rentiers

    Part IV: Rule by the Rich, for the Rich
    Silent power, pol donations lattice of influence
    Hiding it
    Illegal? + poachers
    What about philanthropy?
    Plutonomy

    Part V: Ill-gotten and Ill-spent: From Consumption to Ill-Being and CO2
    Spending it
    Global warming trumps everything
    Conclusion: back to basics –
    what kind of economy do we need?.

    - See more at: http://www.policypress.co.uk/display.asp?k=9781447320791#sthash.e2aPTWQZ.dpuf


    http://www.policypress.co.uk/display.asp?k=9781447320791

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • "Allah Will Destroy Interest"
     Reply #15 - March 07, 2015, 11:32 AM

    What is fascinating is why ancient ideas have such huge effects.  Why do we allow ourselves to be strangled by these ghosts?

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • 1« Previous thread | Next thread »