Skip navigation
Sidebar -

Advanced search options →

Welcome

Welcome to CEMB forum.
Please login or register. Did you miss your activation email?

Donations

Help keep the Forum going!
Click on Kitty to donate:

Kitty is lost

Recent Posts


Qur'anic studies today
by zeca
Today at 07:11 PM

What's happened to the fo...
by zeca
Today at 06:39 PM

New Britain
Today at 05:41 PM

Do humans have needed kno...
Today at 05:47 AM

Iran launches drones
April 13, 2024, 09:56 PM

عيد مبارك للجميع! ^_^
by akay
April 12, 2024, 04:01 PM

Eid-Al-Fitr
by akay
April 12, 2024, 12:06 PM

Lights on the way
by akay
February 01, 2024, 12:10 PM

Mock Them and Move on., ...
January 30, 2024, 10:44 AM

Pro Israel or Pro Palesti...
January 29, 2024, 01:53 PM

Pakistan: The Nation.....
January 28, 2024, 02:12 PM

Gaza assault
January 27, 2024, 01:08 PM

Theme Changer

 Topic: The Apostates by Simon Cottee is out!

 (Read 14260 times)
  • 12 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • The Apostates by Simon Cottee is out!
     OP - March 04, 2015, 04:46 PM

    The Apostates: When Muslims Leave Islam (Amazon link)

    As some of you are aware, Simon Cottee started doing a study of apostasy within Islam a few years ago. Many of us from this forum (including myself) volunteered to be a part of it and shared our stories with him. A total of 35 apostates are mentioned in the book.

    I know he had a few issues with publishers, hence why it's taken so long to get this out there. But now it's finally out so get buying and reading!

    It's a brilliant book and worth buying as it is essentially a study of every single one of us on this forum.

    He approaches the topic from a sociological standpoint, and attempts to explain why the religious take apostasy so seriously. He cites other studies to back his points up. Talks about group dynamics, how it's affected by defection from within the group and attacks from outsiders.

    I cant give a complete review as I'm still working my way through it (and I'm currently at work, should be working...). But so far, I've learnt some good things from it Afro The next few chapters go into the stories that we shared with him, so that will be my reading for this week. Will update this thread as I go along.
  • The Apostates by Simon Cottee is out!
     Reply #1 - March 04, 2015, 06:10 PM

    Thanks, Peru  Afro
  • The Apostates by Simon Cottee is out!
     Reply #2 - March 10, 2015, 10:01 PM

    It's great to see it finally published!! Kudos to all who participated to the research  Afro

  • The Apostates by Simon Cottee is out!
     Reply #3 - March 11, 2015, 02:18 AM

    It will be available to me in a few weeks. I have it on pre-order.

    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • The Apostates by Simon Cottee is out!
     Reply #4 - March 12, 2015, 10:19 AM

    Are there plans to release an e-book version on Amazon?

    He's no friend to the friendless
    And he's the mother of grief
    There's only sorrow for tomorrow
    Surely life is too brief
  • The Apostates by Simon Cottee is out!
     Reply #5 - March 12, 2015, 11:11 AM

    Put a request in, if enough of us do if then it'll make it a priority for amazon.
  • The Apostates by Simon Cottee is out!
     Reply #6 - March 12, 2015, 11:35 AM

    I am not buying the book. I don't see the point.

    Can anyone provide me with a decent challenge?
  • The Apostates by Simon Cottee is out!
     Reply #7 - March 12, 2015, 10:33 PM

    My review as promised - I was going to review it all, but this post has gotten a lot longer than I expected. However, I think there's enough here to give you a good idea of what this book is about.

    Preface
    The book starts off with Irtaza Hussain's unfortunate story. For those of you who haven't heard of him, he was an ex-muslim who couldn't cope with the misery that apostasy brings and eventually ended his own life.

    Simon discusses how he met Irtaza who agreed to be interviewed for his book. Describes Irtaza as a person and how passionate he was about his views on Islam/secularism. And also how difficult it was to get him to talk about his family life, which was obviously a very painful subject for him.

    The chapter goes on to describe Irtaza's life, his relation with his family post-apostasy, his posts on CEMB which grew increasingly desperate, and finally his death. A very emotional chapter, and and a worthy dedication to his memory.

    Principle Characters
    This book mentions 35 interviewees. Their brief introductions are described here,

    Glossary of Arabic and Islamic Terms
    Self-explanatory.

    Introduction
    This section starts off by explaining how there has been little literature on religious defection throughout history, and concerning Islam it is virtually non-existent as it is a high politicised subject making it difficult to write about. (And even when one finally gets the green light to write about it, actually getting it into publication sometimes comes with further difficulties as was the case with this book).

    He describes how he found the interviewees for this book, and mentions the forum. The rest of the chapter is dedicated to what this book is about, and also what it is not about (which, amusingly, takes up nearly half the chapter Cheesy )

    Aspects of Apostasy
    This part deals mainly with the sociology of in-group dynamics, and how it is affected by defection/apostasy from within the group. He does an excellent job of describing why apostasy is deemed so offensive.

    He talks about the different ways that apostasy can manifest itself, and identifies 7 'main' ways that apostates typically choose to exit, and the reasons for it.

    This chapter includes an excellent point about how the definition of what constitutes as apostasy is growing ever wider, and how different groups of muslims have their own unique rules. A horrifying story is mentioned about an Egyptian academic named Nasr Hamid Abu-Zayd who's work was declared of being an affront to Islam. This eventually led to him being called out as an apostate by a newspaper. His marriage became nulled as a consequence despite appeals, and finally they called for his death. He left the country. He was never given any chance to appeal against the false allegations of apostasy.

    Becoming an Apostate
    This chapter explains the different phases an apostate goes through. He begins by talking about doubt, how the people interviewed started to initially question their faith and how the questions impacted them. Our interviews are mentioned heavily from here to the rest of the book.

    Feelings of guilt seemed to be a big theme here. Simon has an interesting finding amongst respondents showing that paradise meant very little to them as it's descriptions seem rather vague and abstract (rivers of milk and honey? meh...). Hell on the otherhand is described far too well, causing a source of great anxiety amongst doubters.

    In order to suppress doubts, many went in search for answer online. Some tried questioning families/friends. He hows how the (non-)answers recieved impacted the doubters.

    There's an interesting story of how one person hoped that hajj would reignite their faith as it is well-known for having an emotional impact on people. But that impact was absent in this particular person, and the consequences of this further weakened their faith,

    Feelings of panic and desperation seem to be common when one is unable to rekindle their faith. For some it eventually leads to apathy.

    Eventually, doubters ended up reading either the Quran in english to make more sense of it and/or reading atheist works for another viewpoint. This was incredibly impactful. Many respondents expressed how Islam was becoming increasingly alienating for them and how they could no longer identify with it anymore. This begins their eventual realization that Islam is not the one true religion.

    The final moment, when one concludes once and for all that they are no longer a muslim is a memorable one for almost all respondents. A testament to how big a moment it is for us all, and Simon describes it well.
  • The Apostates by Simon Cottee is out!
     Reply #8 - March 13, 2015, 02:17 AM

    I am not buying the book. I don't see the point.


    For me it is an emotional buy, rather than intellectual. I also want to support his work, not only for the subject matter, but because I hear he is an extremely decent person who cared about his project and the people he interviewed.

    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • The Apostates by Simon Cottee is out!
     Reply #9 - March 13, 2015, 08:08 AM

    Agree with three, it was clear throughout the book how much he cares about the people he interviewed. He still stays in touch, and also continues to attend CEMB events.

    It's not a reason for everyone to buy it, but I think it's enough to interest a fair few.
  • The Apostates by Simon Cottee is out!
     Reply #10 - March 14, 2015, 07:12 PM

    ^

    I heard he also attends exmuslim meetups hosted by the guys on reddit. 

    Haven't read the book yet but it seems like he definitely took the time to really get to know exmuslims in a very personal way before writing it.


    In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
  • The Apostates by Simon Cottee is out!
     Reply #11 - March 15, 2015, 09:28 AM

    Simon Cottee has got an article in the Times today: Taking off the Veil
  • The Apostates by Simon Cottee is out!
     Reply #12 - March 15, 2015, 03:55 PM

    The full article (it's based on the book):

    Taking off the veil: easy. Then the death threats begin

    As young Islamists hog headlines by revelling in slaughter, a procession of other young Muslims, often women, are risking all — even their lives — to abandon the faith, writes Simon Cottee


    ‘There was this look of complete disbelief on her face. She was devastated. But by that point I really didn’t care, because I just felt so suffocated. I knew it would shock her, but I thought she’d get over it. She didn’t.” This, according to Nubia, a 22-year-old undergraduate student in London, was how her mother responded when she first told her.

    “I’ve tried to block it all out,” Alia, a 25-year-old computer programmer, says of her mother’s reaction, “but I’ll never forget the look of hurt on her face.”

    These are coming-out stories — with a difference: Nubia and Alia are recounting the fateful moment when they outed themselves to their loved ones as apostates from the faith.

    These are ex-Muslim coming-out stories: stories about leaving Islam and the fallout from confessions of disbelief to family and friends.

    Apostasy is a sin in classical Islam. The Koran threatens eternal torture and damnation for Muslims who leave the faith: “Those who disbelieve and die disbelievers will not be saved even if they offer enough gold to fill the entire earth. Agonising torment is in store for them, and there will be no one to help them.” In some Muslim- majority countries apostasy is punishable by death. And despite worldwide censure levelled at Isis’s persecution of minorities and Shi’ites in Iraq and Syria, it is as dangerous to be an apostate in Riyadh as Raqqa.

    Reformist Muslims, however, reject this as anachronistic and antithetical to the Koranic ruling that “there is no compulsion in religion”.

    Many former Muslims tell a different story, testifying to how coming out about loss of faith can mean rejection and even ostracism.

    Nubia was born in 1993 in Saudi Arabia to devout Muslim Sudanese parents. She says she had “always had doubts” about Islam but would fight them off because she “didn’t want to anger God”. When she came to Britain as an inquisitive 16-year-old to board at an all-girls Muslim school, her doubts intensified. Her mother was no longer around “to shout me down or laugh at my ideas”. It was a difficult period. “I couldn’t stand it,” she says. “There were Koran lessons every day. They’d knock on your door for the early morning prayer and you’d have to pray with all the girls in the house. It was just suffocating for me because it was too Muslim.”

    Nubia decided to come out to her mother during a school holiday, back in Sudan, where her family lives. “I just poured my heart out and said, ‘I don’t believe in God’, and that I didn’t want to wear the hijab. That I just wanted to completely dissociate myself from Islam.

    “She was hysterical,” Nubia says of her mother’s immediate response. She told Nubia, “Well, you can leave the religion, but it would mean losing us.” And she warned her: “If you decide to come out and tell everyone about it, you had better face the consequences, because the ruling on apostasy in sharia is death. If anyone decides to carry that out, I won’t stop them.”

    Within days Nubia pretended to take it all back. “I felt really guilty seeing my mum in so much pain. So I sat her down again and said, ‘You know what, you actually have a point — I don’t know enough about Islam. I think I should look more into it’.

    “So she took me to see the imam, and then later we did umrah [a pilgrimage to Mecca] together. I pretended I was convinced, but it really didn’t make any difference to me.”

    Nubia is now studying physics at a leading university in London and lives a double life as a closet atheist. Her extended family does not know of her apostasy and her mother is now convinced that she has returned to the righteous path.

    Alia tells a similar story, although, having “come out” to her family, she has stayed true to her disbelief. Born in Pakistan in 1990, Alia moved to Britain with her family when she was two. She says she had always had doubts about Islam, but it wasn’t until she went to university and fell in love with a non-Muslim that she began to question her beliefs fully.

    She met Stephen, a British-born atheist, at a concert. He invited Alia back to his place. She politely declined, but they exchanged numbers and later that night they spoke for hours. The next week they met up. They kissed, they undressed and they almost went all the way. Alia knew she was crossing a line and the next day felt a stinging sense of shame. She knew it was wrong in the eyes of Islam, but she also liked Stephen.

    “I thought, I can’t be doing this, but I didn’t want to stop.” It felt right, she says. She wanted to see him again. So she did. And they became lovers.

    According to Alia, this wasn’t the cause of her apostasy, but it did challenge her to question her religious beliefs. Stephen was a good man and they were in love — how could God or any religion condemn their coupling? Why should it matter he was a non-Muslim, an unbeliever, an atheist?

    “I was very torn. I just didn’t know what to do.” She was also “very scared because I was still massively afraid of hell”. And she felt she had let her parents down, especially her father, “because everything he’d taught me I was throwing back in his face”.

    Eventually Alia moved in with Stephen. She sent her parents a long email detailing how leaving Islam had been the hardest decision she had ever had to make, but “I can’t live a lie for the rest of my life”.

    She omitted to mention that she had a boyfriend and they were very much in love, but when her father called her that evening, imploring her to come home, she came clean about Stephen, with whom she had been living for a year. “He was very angry and started saying, ‘You’re shit! You’re shit!’, over and over again.”

    The next day he called to apologise. Alia cracked and returned home. Her aunt was very persuasive. “What you are doing,” she warned Alia, “will destroy the chances of your sisters ever getting married. You should come back home so people don’t start thinking that we are a bad family.”

    Not long afterwards, Alia received an ultimatum: “If you’re not a Muslim by the weekend we’re going to kick you out.” The day before the deadline, she left home.

    I ask Alia if she has any regrets. She says no, except that she deeply misses her siblings: “They’re so important to me and they’ve always accepted me for who I am. Losing them was the hardest thing about it all.”

    This has been adapted from The Apostates: When Muslims Leave Islam (Hurst & Co). Simon Cottee is a senior lecturer in criminology at Kent University
  • The Apostates by Simon Cottee is out!
     Reply #13 - March 15, 2015, 04:06 PM

    For anyone who says that they are not going to buy the book and still bitches about the fact that our voice is not accessible via the mainstream outlet then you are part of the problem.

    This is an extremely important book that encapsulates the sighs of a new generation of apostates who dare not be silenced any longer. I hope this is the beginning of a many, great new things.

    I'll be buying another for the local library too.

    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • The Apostates by Simon Cottee is out!
     Reply #14 - March 15, 2015, 05:07 PM

    Quote
    I'll be buying another for the local library too.


    That's really nice of you.
  • The Apostates by Simon Cottee is out!
     Reply #15 - March 15, 2015, 05:23 PM

    I bought a copy yesterday. I hadn't really intended to but it was on the shelf in Waterstones and looked interesting when I started leafing through it. From what I've read so far it seems very good, and as someone who isn't an ex-muslim I think it does give me a clearer idea of what it's actually like to lose your religion.
  • The Apostates by Simon Cottee is out!
     Reply #16 - March 15, 2015, 05:43 PM

    That's really nice of you.


    You know what...there ahve been some critical books in Islam turning up in the library but somehow they just 'dissapear' never to return again. This happens to some atheistic books as well. However, to eb fair there was a book on hadiths by Jonathan C. Brown that I only ever saw twice.

    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • The Apostates by Simon Cottee is out!
     Reply #17 - March 15, 2015, 09:33 PM

    For anyone who says that they are not going to buy the book and still bitches about the fact that our voice is not accessible via the mainstream outlet then you are part of the problem.

    Of course if no one shows interest in these issues then there's no market. I'm planning on having a look on amazon and ordering a copy when I have some spare cash.
    That's really nice of you.

     yes

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • The Apostates by Simon Cottee is out!
     Reply #18 - March 27, 2015, 07:18 AM

    If there is one thing reading that book has taught me, is that I am never participating in a study on ex muslims again. 


    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • The Apostates by Simon Cottee is out!
     Reply #19 - March 27, 2015, 08:55 AM

    I've not read it Berbs. What was it you didn't like?
  • The Apostates by Simon Cottee is out!
     Reply #20 - March 28, 2015, 02:59 PM

    The idea that some of our life stories, which may be real or imagined, are what is called an atrocity tale.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atrocity_story

    Quote
    bromley and others define an atrocity as an event that is perceived as a flagrant violation of a fundamental value. It contains the following three elements:

    moral outrage or indignation;
    authorization of punitive measures;
    mobilization of control efforts against the apparent perpetrators.


    Having had a fair few muslims come on to this site and accuse me of making my life up, to see the words could be real or imagined, and then to see that he calls this an atrocity tale, is beyond hurtful.

    And of course, this sounds really stupid most likely, but I feel like a nobody.  Like nothing I went through was important enough for myself to be more than a few quotes.  It didn't even mention that it was me (amongst a few others) who made this forum.

    All I am is a bit part, with an atrocity tale, that was put online to fulfil those manipulative criteria I quoted above.  And as he said, to excuse my own past connection with Islam.  Like hey, it's not my fault I was one of them, look at all these real or imagined things that happened in my life, that made me stay in Islam.

    I mean I get it, it's a book, it has a limit to how much can be in there.  I just felt at the end of it all, really embarrassed at how meaningless I was to the entire study.

    I wanted to matter at some point, to something.  Just for a moment to be someone of worth. 

    The experience left me feeling more of a nobody than I had been. 

    My sociology lecturer actually bought a copy, since a few years back we had discussed the study, because I was nervous given that Simon never once fulfilled his promise to provide transcripts, or any pre-publication details in order to give any participant the chance to pull out if they were unhappy or felt something didn't represent them correctly.  So of course my lecturer kept an eye for the book, and now he has it, and I am deeply ashamed that he has it.

    Also, I don't actually think some of the stuff he focuses on (i.e the sex, the commentary made on the forum about leaving Islam to fuck loads of people, drink alcohol or eat pig) leaves this place looking good.   It really does just feed into all the shitty things said about us already.

    I wish I hadn't participated, and I certainly wouldn't ever again.

    Not unless it was social research that truly was inclusive of its participants.

    As it was, we did an interview a few years back, and whatever the result was, was just something we all had to wait to find out, after it was published.  No chance to know until it was too late.

    meh, whatever right.  I definitely didn't like it, nor the way I felt after reading it.


    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • The Apostates by Simon Cottee is out!
     Reply #21 - March 28, 2015, 03:29 PM

    Barbie...you matter to me and everyone else here!

    We know your story and thank youf ro sharing it... Kiss

    Anonymity is the price we pray...I'm still waiting for my copy (been over 10 days) since I ordered it! What you've said has left a bitter taste in my mouth.

    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • The Apostates by Simon Cottee is out!
     Reply #22 - March 28, 2015, 03:34 PM

    Quote
    It didn't even mention that it was me (amongst a few others) who made this forum...I wanted to matter at some point, to something.  Just for a moment to be someone of worth.


    I haven't read the book yet, I don't know anything about this, but can I at least say that I think the forum that you've created has been absolutely significant not only to awareness of apostasy issues, but to many individual people, and I'd consider myself one of them.

    I have changed so many of my views and learned so much from being able to exchange ideas with the people who contribute to this forum, and I'm extremely grateful for it, and to you for making it possible.  
  • The Apostates by Simon Cottee is out!
     Reply #23 - March 28, 2015, 03:41 PM

    Thanks Jedi.

    It's not that bad to be fair, I'm sure other participants will be much happier with their portrayals, and some of the stuff he is concluding is ok too.

    This is a personal reaction more than anything.  It left me feeling bad, for many of my own self esteem issues that are outside of Islam. 

    There just isn't all that much substance to me within the book, and I yearned to matter, so that's really on me.

    Plus I am tired of my life being so shocking to people that it might not be real.  It was real.  I still carry it all inside me.  I know it was real.  The whole may be.......it gets to me, and it shames me on some level.

    Like I said though, these are my own personal feelings, and others will no doubt be happier with how they came off.


    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • The Apostates by Simon Cottee is out!
     Reply #24 - March 28, 2015, 03:45 PM

    I haven't read the book yet, I don't know anything about this, but can I at least say that I think the forum that you've created has been absolutely significant not only to awareness of apostasy issues, but to many individual people, and I'd consider myself one of them.

    I have changed so many of my views and learned so much from being able to exchange ideas with the people who contribute to this forum, and I'm extremely grateful for it, and to you for making it possible.  


    Again, thanks Lua.  I do appreciate it.  hugs

    I still believe we should all read it, I just won't suggest to anyone I know, that knows me in the real world and wants to read it, should actually read it.  It can definitely stay completely anonymous. 

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • The Apostates by Simon Cottee is out!
     Reply #25 - March 28, 2015, 03:57 PM

    By creating this forum you've made a big difference to many peoples lives from all over the planet, so i'd say you are most definately a worthwhile person !   : )

    x
  • The Apostates by Simon Cottee is out!
     Reply #26 - March 28, 2015, 03:57 PM

    Again, thanks Lua.  I do appreciate it.  hugs

    I still believe we should all read it, I just won't suggest to anyone I know, that knows me in the real world and wants to read it, should actually read it.  It can definitely stay completely anonymous. 


    No, I should be the one thanking you!  hugs

    And I see, I'll have to read it when it becomes available over here.
  • The Apostates by Simon Cottee is out!
     Reply #27 - March 28, 2015, 04:07 PM

    The idea that some of our life stories, which may be real or imagined, are what is called an atrocity tale.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atrocity_story

    Having had a fair few muslims come on to this site and accuse me of making my life up, to see the words could be real or imagined, and then to see that he calls this an atrocity tale, is beyond hurtful.

    And of course, this sounds really stupid most likely, but I feel like a nobody.  Like nothing I went through was important enough for myself to be more than a few quotes.  It didn't even mention that it was me (amongst a few others) who made this forum.

    All I am is a bit part, with an atrocity tale, that was put online to fulfil those manipulative criteria I quoted above.  And as he said, to excuse my own past connection with Islam.  Like hey, it's not my fault I was one of them, look at all these real or imagined things that happened in my life, that made me stay in Islam.

    I mean I get it, it's a book, it has a limit to how much can be in there.  I just felt at the end of it all, really embarrassed at how meaningless I was to the entire study.

    I wanted to matter at some point, to something.  Just for a moment to be someone of worth. 

    The experience left me feeling more of a nobody than I had been. 

    My sociology lecturer actually bought a copy, since a few years back we had discussed the study, because I was nervous given that Simon never once fulfilled his promise to provide transcripts, or any pre-publication details in order to give any participant the chance to pull out if they were unhappy or felt something didn't represent them correctly.  So of course my lecturer kept an eye for the book, and now he has it, and I am deeply ashamed that he has it.

    Also, I don't actually think some of the stuff he focuses on (i.e the sex, the commentary made on the forum about leaving Islam to fuck loads of people, drink alcohol or eat pig) leaves this place looking good.   It really does just feed into all the shitty things said about us already.

    I wish I hadn't participated, and I certainly wouldn't ever again.

    Not unless it was social research that truly was inclusive of its participants.

    As it was, we did an interview a few years back, and whatever the result was, was just something we all had to wait to find out, after it was published.  No chance to know until it was too late.

    meh, whatever right.  I definitely didn't like it, nor the way I felt after reading it.




    Sorry Berbs. hugs

    Yes I agree I don't want to be part of someone's agenda.

    I would love you to write a book about your life and experiences and the thoughts and conclusions it has led you to.

    You are one of the wisest people I know.  hugs
  • The Apostates by Simon Cottee is out!
     Reply #28 - March 28, 2015, 04:14 PM

    By creating this forum you've made a big difference to many peoples lives from all over the planet, so i'd say you are most definately a worthwhile person !   : )

    x


    +1

    You were (and are)  a massive inspiration to me and helped me to finally wake up.  I'm not sure I have ever said thank you. So thank you habibti so much. hugs
  • The Apostates by Simon Cottee is out!
     Reply #29 - March 28, 2015, 04:30 PM

    Thanks guys.  I love you all, truly.  hugs


    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • 12 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »