Skip navigation
Sidebar -

Advanced search options →

Welcome

Welcome to CEMB forum.
Please login or register. Did you miss your activation email?

Donations

Help keep the Forum going!
Click on Kitty to donate:

Kitty is lost

Recent Posts


Qur'anic studies today
Yesterday at 06:50 AM

Do humans have needed kno...
April 20, 2024, 12:02 PM

Lights on the way
by akay
April 19, 2024, 04:40 PM

اضواء على الطريق ....... ...
by akay
April 19, 2024, 12:50 PM

Do humans have needed kno...
April 19, 2024, 04:17 AM

What's happened to the fo...
by zeca
April 18, 2024, 06:39 PM

New Britain
April 18, 2024, 05:41 PM

Iran launches drones
April 13, 2024, 09:56 PM

عيد مبارك للجميع! ^_^
by akay
April 12, 2024, 04:01 PM

Eid-Al-Fitr
by akay
April 12, 2024, 12:06 PM

Mock Them and Move on., ...
January 30, 2024, 10:44 AM

Pro Israel or Pro Palesti...
January 29, 2024, 01:53 PM

Theme Changer

 Topic: Evolutionary Origin of Religion

 (Read 1890 times)
  • 1« Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Evolutionary Origin of Religion
     OP - February 27, 2015, 11:19 AM

    Excellent talk by Daniel Dennett about the evolutionary origin of religion.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ql2yz7XDs2A
  • Evolutionary Origin of Religion
     Reply #1 - February 27, 2015, 01:24 PM

    You might find this thread interesting, Abu Ali. The Religious Mind Parasite
  • Evolutionary Origin of Religion
     Reply #2 - February 27, 2015, 01:40 PM

    Thanks, yes he mentions this in the talk.  Afro
  • Evolutionary Origin of Religion
     Reply #3 - February 27, 2015, 02:55 PM

    Yeah. I wrote that thread after thinking about the presentation he presented in the video. (I'd seen another version of that same lecture of his.)  I’m not sure if you can relate to this, but for me, the topic of religion is one that is still a staple of my random thoughts, even now. I liked the way that viewing ideas as being similar to viruses sort of explains why that might still be the case for me. If you get a chance to check out what I wrote on that thread, I’d love to hear your comments.
  • Evolutionary Origin of Religion
     Reply #4 - February 27, 2015, 03:06 PM

    Yes, definitely the whole God/religion thing still wont leave me in peace.

    Like I said on another thread I have great difficulty with the idea of 'something out of nothing.' Or as someone else put it :

    Why is there 'something' instead of 'nothing'?

    Yes I will take a look  Afro
  • Evolutionary Origin of Religion
     Reply #5 - February 27, 2015, 03:31 PM

    For Hassan:

    Quote from: Why is there something rather than nothing? By Sean Carroll
    The best talk I heard at the International Congress of Logic Methodology and Philosophy of Science in Beijing was, somewhat to my surprise, the Presidential Address by Adolf Grünbaum. I wasn’t expecting much, as the genre of Presidential Addresses by Octogenarian Philosophers is not one noted for its moments of soaring rhetoric. I recognized Grünbaum’s name as a philosopher of science, but didn’t really know anything about his work. Had I known that he has recently been specializing in critiques of theism from a scientific viewpoint (with titles like “The Poverty of Theistic Cosmology“), I might have been more optimistic.

    Grünbaum addressed a famous and simple question: “Why is there something rather than nothing?” He called it the Primordial Existential Question, or PEQ for short. (Philosophers are up there with NASA officials when it comes to a weakness for acronyms.) Stated in that form, the question can be traced at least back to Leibniz in his 1697 essay “On the Ultimate Origin of Things,” although it’s been recently championed by Oxford philosopher Richard Swinburne.

    The correct answer to this question is stated right off the bat in the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy: “Well, why not?” But we have to dress it up to make it a bit more philosophical. First, we would only even consider this an interesting question if there were some reasonable argument in favor of nothingness over existence. As Grünbaum traces it out, Leibniz’s original claim was that nothingness was “spontaneous,” whereas an existing universe required a bit of work to achieve. Swinburne has sharpened this a bit, claiming that nothingness is uniquely “natural,” because it is necessarily simpler than any particular universe. Both of them use this sort of logic to undergird an argument for the existence of God: if nothingness is somehow more natural or likely than existence, and yet here we are, it must be because God willed it to be so.

    I can’t do justice to Grünbaum’s takedown of this position, which was quite careful and well-informed. But the basic idea is straightforward enough. When we talk about things being “natural” or “spontaneous,” we do so on the basis of our experience in this world. This experience equips us with a certain notion of natural — theories are naturally if they are simple and not finely-tuned, configurations are natural if they aren’t inexplicably low-entropy.

    But our experience with the world in which we actually live tells us nothing whatsoever about whether certain possible universes are “natural” or not. In particular, nothing in science, logic, or philosophy provides any evidence for the claim that simple universes are “preferred” (whatever that could possibly mean). We only have experience with one universe; there is no ensemble from which it is chosen, on which we could define a measure to quantify degrees of probability. Who is to say whether a universe described by the non-perturbative completion of superstring theory is likelier or less likely than, for example, a universe described by a Rule 110 cellular automaton?

    It’s easy to get tricked into thinking that simplicity is somehow preferable. After all, Occam’s Razor exhorts us to stick to simple explanations. But that’s a way to compare different explanations that equivalently account for the same sets of facts; comparing different sets of possible underlying rules for the universe is a different kettle of fish entirely. And, to be honest, it’s true that most working physicists have a hope (or a prejudice) that the principles underlying our universe are in fact pretty simple. But that’s simply an expression of our selfish desire, not a philosophical precondition on the space of possible universes. When it comes to the actual universe, ultimately we’ll just have to take what we get.

    Finally, we physicists sometimes muddy the waters by talking about “multiple universes” or “the multiverse.” These days, the vast majority of such mentions refer not to actual other universes, but to different parts of our universe, causally inaccessible from ours and perhaps governed by different low-energy laws of physics (but the same deep-down ones). In that case there may actually be an ensemble of local regions, and perhaps even some sensibly-defined measure on them. But they’re all part of one big happy universe. Comparing the single multiverse in which we live to a universe with completely different deep-down laws of physics, or with different values for such basic attributes as “existence,” is something on which string theory and cosmology are utterly silent.

    Ultimately, the problem is that the question — “Why is there something rather than nothing?” — doesn’t make any sense. What kind of answer could possibly count as satisfying? What could a claim like “The most natural universe is one that doesn’t exist” possibly mean? As often happens, we are led astray by imagining that we can apply the kinds of language we use in talking about contingent pieces of the world around us to the universe as a whole. It makes sense to ask why this blog exists, rather than some other blog; but there is no external vantage point from which we can compare the relatively likelihood of different modes of existence for the universe.

    So the universe exists, and we know of no good reason to be surprised by that fact. I will hereby admit that, when I was a kid (maybe about ten or twelve years old? don’t remember precisely) I actually used to worry about the Primordial Existential Question. That was when I had first started reading about physics and cosmology, and knew enough about the Big Bang to contemplate how amazing it was that we knew anything about the early universe. But then I would eventually hit upon the question of “What if they universe didn’t exist at all?”, and I would get legitimately frightened. (Some kids are scared by clowns, some by existential questions.) So in one sense, my entire career as a physical cosmologist has just been one giant defense mechanism.


    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Evolutionary Origin of Religion
     Reply #6 - February 27, 2015, 04:26 PM

    Thanks, Qtian. I have heard answers to this question before - but ultimately I find the answers unsatisfying and the question keeps coming back.
  • Evolutionary Origin of Religion
     Reply #7 - February 27, 2015, 04:30 PM

    What was that story about an ape a few million years ago banging some sticks, possibly in a cave and....

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Evolutionary Origin of Religion
     Reply #8 - February 27, 2015, 05:02 PM

    I am trying to remember which book mentioned this. "Religion is society worshiping itself" It seems accurate enough to reduce to an individual level.
  • Evolutionary Origin of Religion
     Reply #9 - February 27, 2015, 05:05 PM

    I have heard answers to this question before - but ultimately I find the answers unsatisfying and the question keeps coming back.


    I just gave up trying to find the to this question. Instead I focus on learning answers expressed by various views. At the very least I can not be accused of lacking effort.
  • Evolutionary Origin of Religion
     Reply #10 - February 27, 2015, 05:19 PM

    Yes, indeed. I think answers to questions can sometimes be like having something to eat when you are hungry. Some things leave you still hungry - no matter how appealing they are lol  grin12
  • Evolutionary Origin of Religion
     Reply #11 - February 27, 2015, 05:26 PM

    I am trying to remember which book mentioned this. "Religion is society worshiping itself" It seems accurate enough to reduce to an individual level.


    Durkheim Elementary Forms of the Religious Life?

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Evolutionary Origin of Religion
     Reply #12 - February 27, 2015, 05:56 PM

    I am trying to remember which book mentioned this. "Religion is society worshiping itself" It seems accurate enough to reduce to an individual level.


    Yes that is the Functionalsit theory of the role of religion in society. Emile Durkheim would research many societies and this idea emerged out of his observation of native Australian Aborignes who would place sacred values on everyday items/activites e.g. fishing. The elevation of the mundane to the sacred made everything important and thus it was societies way of maintaining order as 'proto-religions' provided the stability that emerging societies required to provide social order and stability (as some societies still do today). Therefore, religion is society worshipping itself since the laws and values which we ascribe to God/numinous is our attempt to bring meaning to to our lives, activities and objects.

    I can't help but mention a favourite of mine - Jared Diamond on the Evolution of Religions:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oOsOb0QRaQs
     

    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • 1« Previous thread | Next thread »