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 Topic: Entering Christian heaven isn't easy, too

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  • Entering Christian heaven isn't easy, too
     Reply #30 - March 08, 2015, 12:32 AM
    Sometimes things are right in front of you at least it was for me
  • Entering Christian heaven isn't easy, too
     Reply #31 - March 08, 2015, 12:43 AM
    That's why most people on CEMB left religion. Smiley
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Entering Christian heaven isn't easy, too
     Reply #32 - March 08, 2015, 01:43 AM
     Cheesy
  • Entering Christian heaven isn't easy, too
     Reply #33 - March 08, 2015, 02:02 AM
     Afro
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Entering Christian heaven isn't easy, too
     Reply #34 - March 08, 2015, 02:08 AM
    Quote from: UsagiTsukino on March 07, 2015, 08:43 PM
    also the church is not per se a building it just means to assembly. In other words any where you go to worship and pray is where the church is. Its a place of people. many Christan did have home church or worship in different areas. HAs the bible 2 or more worship in my name.

    Do you consider the church and the holy spirit one and the same? Also can I ask what type of christian you are?
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Entering Christian heaven isn't easy, too
     Reply #35 - March 08, 2015, 03:08 AM
    Quote from: asbie on March 07, 2015, 05:46 PM
    Christianity (properly dilluted) isn't even that bad though. Reminds people of moral obligations and gives hope.

    Christianity ain't even about that. Its about being a good person, and feeling like you're going to be eternally rewarded, and following the path of Jesus because he's all about love, and spreading that.  Smiley


    Yeah. Modern Christianity is all about professing hippy philosophy and judging your neighbor and writing your name on your cake pan so the church ladies don't swipe it. Convincing your daughter that your will is the will of God and his personal emissary, Jesus, who is cuter than any boy could ever be and has his own line of jewelry (first bracelet free, WWJD). No one pays any attention to origins of Christianity or Biblical stuff that they can't spin towards Haight and Ashbury. Because INSPIRED. License to spin.
    At least in my neighborhood.
    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • Entering Christian heaven isn't easy, too
     Reply #36 - March 08, 2015, 03:09 AM
    Quote from: justperusing on March 07, 2015, 08:03 PM
    I go to church with my fam every sunday. Heck, I'm going to be a leader on a mission trip with the church this week. Gonna build houses for low income families.

    I feel like a double agent  Cool


    Thanks for helping the low income! I just love heroes like you! Y'all make a huge difference!
    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • Entering Christian heaven isn't easy, too
     Reply #37 - March 08, 2015, 03:29 AM
    Quote from: Hassan on March 07, 2015, 09:27 PM
    Oh I have... many, many times... but I haven't yet had any response. Maybe I need to keep trying for another 55 years Wink



    God/Jesus get a little shy around people like us.

    The Christianity I grew up with boiled down to: God is love and we should be more loving like Jesus. It was actually a quite nice message. Then I read the bible and was horrified.
    "I moreover believe that any religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, cannot be a true system."
    -Thomas Paine
  • Entering Christian heaven isn't easy, too
     Reply #38 - March 08, 2015, 06:37 AM
    Here is a another video about the myth of Jesus.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hg2nB5mrZbE
  • Entering Christian heaven isn't easy, too
     Reply #39 - March 08, 2015, 06:45 AM
    Quote from: Quod Sum Eris on March 08, 2015, 02:08 AM
    Do you consider the church and the holy spirit one and the same? Also can I ask what type of christian you are?



    NO has I said before the Church when looking at the greek meaning means to assembly. Any where you assembly to speak god's name and worship is the church. History shows this many would worship in homes. The holy spirit however is god. Has for me I am in no section of Christianity. I am just Christan.  If your asking my beliefs I am liberal.   
  • Entering Christian heaven isn't easy, too
     Reply #40 - March 08, 2015, 10:04 AM
    Quote from: three on March 08, 2015, 03:08 AM
    Yeah. Modern Christianity is all about professing hippy philosophy and judging your neighbor and writing your name on your cake pan so the church ladies don't swipe it. Convincing your daughter that your will is the will of God and his personal emissary, Jesus, who is cuter than any boy could ever be and has his own line of jewelry (first bracelet free, WWJD). No one pays any attention to origins of Christianity or Biblical stuff that they can't spin towards Haight and Ashbury. Because INSPIRED. License to spin.
    At least in my neighborhood.


    Rofl...  Haha….
  • Entering Christian heaven isn't easy, too
     Reply #41 - March 08, 2015, 10:05 AM
    Quote from: UsagiTsukino on March 08, 2015, 12:32 AM
    Sometimes things are right in front of you at least it was for me


    Does that mean I'm blind? Stupid? Insincere? Evil?

    I don't get it?
  • Entering Christian heaven isn't easy, too
     Reply #42 - March 08, 2015, 10:15 AM
    ^the difference is, you got to believe    : )
  • Entering Christian heaven isn't easy, too
     Reply #43 - March 08, 2015, 10:21 AM
    Quote from: justperusing on March 08, 2015, 03:29 AM

    The Christianity I grew up with boiled down to: God is love and we should be more loving like Jesus. It was actually a quite nice message. Then I read the bible and was horrified.


    Too funny, that was the reaction i had with the Quran too, like what the.. am i reading Islam means peace lol..  anyways Christianity is so diluted down today that all you have to do is say "i'm christian" and voila you are one lol, probably how it should be anyway   
  • Entering Christian heaven isn't easy, too
     Reply #44 - March 08, 2015, 10:24 AM
    Quote from: suki on March 08, 2015, 10:15 AM
    ^the difference is, you got to believe    : )


    Yes, that's the weird paradox.

    You must believe in order to believe.
  • Entering Christian heaven isn't easy, too
     Reply #45 - March 08, 2015, 10:29 AM
    Quote from: three on March 08, 2015, 03:08 AM
    Yeah. Modern Christianity is all about professing hippy philosophy and judging your neighbor and writing your name on your cake pan so the church ladies don't swipe it. Convincing your daughter that your will is the will of God and his personal emissary, Jesus, who is cuter than any boy could ever be and has his own line of jewelry (first bracelet free, WWJD)


    Yep. Also I remember those bracelets. Grin
  • Entering Christian heaven isn't easy, too
     Reply #46 - March 08, 2015, 02:26 PM
    The bracelets here give way to tattoos upon adulthood. Like tribal Christianity or something.
    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • Entering Christian heaven isn't easy, too
     Reply #47 - March 08, 2015, 04:12 PM
    Quote from: justperusing on March 08, 2015, 03:29 AM
    The Christianity I grew up with boiled down to: God is love and we should be more loving like Jesus. It was actually a quite nice message. Then I read the bible and was horrified.

     Cheesy
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Entering Christian heaven isn't easy, too
     Reply #48 - March 08, 2015, 08:03 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on March 08, 2015, 10:05 AM
    Does that mean I'm blind? Stupid? Insincere? Evil?

    I don't get it?



    No all i am saying is that sometimes the answers aren't has far as I thought they were. With me it was that I was hoping for something else but when I look again the answers were already there right in front of me.
  • Entering Christian heaven isn't easy, too
     Reply #49 - March 08, 2015, 08:11 PM
    Quote from: UsagiTsukino on March 08, 2015, 08:03 PM

    No all i am saying is that sometimes the answers aren't has far as I thought they were. With me it was that I was hoping for something else but when I look again the answers were already there right in front of me.


    Do you think it matters if a person believes in Jesus or not?

    Isn't it enough for him/her to simply be a good person - as best they can?

    Does belief really matter?

    Does it bring any special rewards, like eternal life in paradise?

    Or is everyone who is good going benefit from the rewards?
  • Entering Christian heaven isn't easy, too
     Reply #50 - March 08, 2015, 08:35 PM
    Just following up on Hassan's comments, what are your thoughts on atheists for Jesus?

    https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=atheists+for+Jesus&oq=atheists+for+Jesus&aqs=chrome..69i57.7014895j0j7&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=93&ie=UTF-8
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Entering Christian heaven isn't easy, too
     Reply #51 - March 08, 2015, 09:58 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on March 08, 2015, 08:11 PM
    Do you think it matters if a person believes in Jesus or not?

    Isn't it enough for him/her to simply be a good person - as best they can?

    Does belief really matter?

    Does it bring any special rewards, like eternal life in paradise?

    Or is everyone who is good going benefit from the rewards?


    In Catholicism, at least, it is taught that all those who honestly seek God and do good will not be barred from heaven. It depends how culpable a person is. Sin must always be deliberately done in the knowledge it is wrong and that applies to being Catholic or not.

    http://www.catholicculture.org/commentary/otc.cfm?id=681

    http://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?id=5410

    So, the way I understand it, me leaving the church believing it to be true is a mortal sin. An atheist who is honestly not a believer has not sinned.
  • Entering Christian heaven isn't easy, too
     Reply #52 - March 08, 2015, 10:31 PM
    It does not say that.

    Quote
    It is not at all a new idea, then, that salvation is possible to those who do not know Christ or His Church. The equally certain teaching that “outside the Church there is no salvation” refers to the fact that all those who respond properly to whatever grace they are given are mysteriously joined to Christ, and in fact are substantial if not formal members of the Church, as several Popes have taught using various terms to express the idea. Clearly, then, anyone who understands what the Church is and knowingly rejects her cannot be saved. But those who, despite their unfortunate ignorance, “perseveringly do good in search of salvation” can be.


    Atheists that have learned about Catholicism but reject it's views are not saved. An unbeliever due to lack of knowledge can be saved. Lack of knowledge in this case would be someone that never heard of Catholicism and Christ in their life. I know about Catholicism, I do not lack knowledge of it and am able to research it. Yet I honestly do not have a belief in Christ or the Church. I will not be saved regard matter how good of a life I live. I have rejected Catholic doctrine.
  • Entering Christian heaven isn't easy, too
     Reply #53 - March 08, 2015, 10:44 PM
    Perhaps we are not reading it the same way.  I understand the part about knowing what the church is to include knowing that it is the true church. It fits with what I remember and read about culpability.
  • Entering Christian heaven isn't easy, too
     Reply #54 - March 08, 2015, 10:54 PM
    Quote from: paul_tarsus on March 08, 2015, 09:58 PM
    In Catholicism, at least, it is taught that all those who honestly seek God and do good will not be barred from heaven. It depends how culpable a person is. Sin must always be deliberately done in the knowledge it is wrong and that applies to being Catholic or not.

    http://www.catholicculture.org/commentary/otc.cfm?id=681

    http://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?id=5410

    So, the way I understand it, me leaving the church believing it to be true is a mortal sin. An atheist who is honestly not a believer has not sinned.


    Well if God has been paying attention, he knows very well that I have honestly sought him over very many years. The Abrahamic God, to be more specific.

    After 55 years of not finding any response, nor strong evidence, I think you ca imagine I'm somewhat sceptical and weary.

    If there is a god up there he certainly doesn't answer prayers. Never mind the times he ignored me - one only has too look at the prayers of the mothers in war zones, the families hit by earthquakes, tsunamis. The prayers of the little girls in India, Africa and other places to save them being forced into prostitution. Or the 6 year old girls brutally raped in Syria after seeing their parents murdered.

    Did't god hear their prayers?

    Maybe they didn't pray right?

    God seems to be excessively fussy finicky and fastidious about the 'type' of prayer and to the right name/religion, before he chooses to save a child being swept away from her fathers arms in a Tusanmi - but he will often answer the prayers of good Christians to catch the bus on time.

    He will let the poor and starving in Haiti have what little they have washed away and destroyed, but will answer the prayers of church leaders to reach their particular target so they can buy more stuff they don't need.

    He will ignore the tears of countless suffering disease, sickness and genetic conditions he kindly invented - while answering the prayer of some guy on a hospital bed for his bottox treatment go well.

    Whether its Muslims mumbling to the floor, Jews mumbling to a wall, or Christians speaking in 'tongues' to the sky - it's difficult to avoid the conclusion that there really is no bastard up there.

    If there is, he ignores prayers and leaves them to pure chance.

    Have a go praying to Mickey Mouse - note the results. You might be surprised.  Smiley
  • Entering Christian heaven isn't easy, too
     Reply #55 - March 08, 2015, 11:58 PM
    Quote from: paul_tarsus on March 08, 2015, 09:58 PM
    So, the way I understand it, me leaving the church believing it to be true is a mortal sin. An atheist who is honestly not a believer has not sinned.


    Some apologists for Islam, including my husband during his brief romance with Quranism, try to say stuff like this, too.

    I've got to ask, Paul. Do you really think that there is such a person who will believe that the church is true and still decide to walk away? Especially if he's losing a reward he was expecting to receive? Especially if he knows that there is Hell waiting for people who sin such as he would be sinning? I find it incredibly hard to imagine that there are creatures who are mentally fit and healthy who would say, "Oh, well, screw it," to something that they believed was actually the truth in favor of Hell.

    How often do you think people are meeting these requirements?
  • Entering Christian heaven isn't easy, too
     Reply #56 - March 09, 2015, 12:00 AM
    The no true Christian, a 3 minute excerpt from Kagan's demolishing of Craig's moral argument.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xa9dFQ6JCNw
    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Entering Christian heaven isn't easy, too
     Reply #57 - March 09, 2015, 01:32 AM
    Quote from: lua on March 08, 2015, 11:58 PM
    Some apologists for Islam, including my husband during his brief romance with Quranism, try to say stuff like this, too.

    I've got to ask, Paul. Do you really think that there is such a person who will believe that the church is true and still decide to walk away? Especially if he's losing a reward he was expecting to receive? Especially if he knows that there is Hell waiting for people who sin such as he would be sinning? I find it incredibly hard to imagine that there are creatures who are mentally fit and healthy who would say, "Oh, well, screw it," to something that they believed was actually the truth in favor of Hell.

    How often do you think people are meeting these requirements?


    I believe there are. As unbelievable as it is, I think some people could be as stubborn as that. Sorry.
  • Entering Christian heaven isn't easy, too
     Reply #58 - March 09, 2015, 01:39 AM
    Why apologize? But just to be perfectly clear: you're saying that a person can be absolutely, positively certain that they are going to Hell forever if they pretend that they don't know something is true when they very much do know it's true, and for some reason, some vague "stubbornness," they decide that they'll choose Hell?

  • Entering Christian heaven isn't easy, too
     Reply #59 - March 09, 2015, 04:37 AM
    Plus a perfect god is perfectly happy to allow such a flawed and clearly mentally I'll being he created (knowing this would happen) end up in hell where he will suffer ubearably without end.

    If I made it to heaven it would be like hell.

    The thought of others suffering eternally would torture me and I could not enjoy anything - even less love the god who thought this whole charade was a 'great plan'.
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