Which is the 'real' Islam?

1« Previous thread | Next thread »
- Jack Torrance
- Ex-Muslim
- offline
Which is the 'real' Islam?
OP - January 29, 2015, 12:29 PM

Some of you may have already come across this video, but the guy (now an ex Muslim) believes that it is in fact the 'terrorists' like IS that follow the 'real' Islam, and because of that, enthusiastic (either newly converted or 're-affirmed') Muslims are all potentially going to be terrorists IF they take the Koran as the 'final word' - as they are compelled to. I must admit, I do wonder what the point of following a religion that tells you to accept its book as 'divine' , and you then go and cherry pick the bits you like, and 'ignore' the nasty bits. Why not just look for another religion that 'fits' you, make one up, or forget all about it? Obviously, it's not as simple as that for those born into the faith, particularly in the Arab world - but they have the choice of quietly 'going along with it' as a cultural thing, so as to not upset the family, etc - as many have done for a long, long time, but it's not really a very honest approach, and now that 'push' seems to be becoming 'shove', it's not an 'excuse' that will stand the test of time - at least, not for much longer. I think it's a bigger problem than people think. It's no use saying 'but the Bible/Torah/whatever has managed to move with the times, that maybe so, but the reason the literalist, black and white loving extremists love Islam so much is that is very extreme and pretty black and white (in between its contradictions). Put on the spot, extremists 'tick more of the right boxes' as far as being a REAL Muslim goes than 'moderates', who choose the oft quoted 'to kill one person, is to kill all of mankind' - thinking this fine example of contradiction excuses all of the exhortations to kill - no matter that it is vastly outnumbered by the 'nasty bits' that compel followers to slay unbelievers, jews, christians and apostates etc. But you know all this I'm sure.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2u9BNpLThqA&feature=youtu.be

Ha Ha.
- Kodanshi
- La solitude s'eprend de mon coeur
- Ex-Muslim
- *Careful Plague & Scarred Joy*
- offline
Which is the 'real' Islam?
Reply #1 - January 29, 2015, 12:51 PM

The problem is that the errorists can lay a more doctrinally correct claim to their viewpoints (tafsirs, actions of previous Islamic caliphs, etc).
- yeezevee
- Pub Regular
- offline
Which is the 'real' Islam?
Reply #2 - January 29, 2015, 12:54 PM

Quote from: Kodanshi on January 29, 2015, 12:51 PM
The problem is that the errorists can lay a more doctrinally correct claim to their viewpoints (tafsirs, actions of previous Islamic caliphs, etc).

that is an interesting word to use Kodanshi ..

errorists and terrorists of religions.. lol..

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
- Kodanshi
- La solitude s'eprend de mon coeur
- Ex-Muslim
- *Careful Plague & Scarred Joy*
- offline
Which is the 'real' Islam?
Reply #3 - January 29, 2015, 01:09 PM

Deliberately chosen. Islamic errorism.
- ElToro
- Ex-Muslim
- offline
Which is the 'real' Islam?
Reply #4 - January 29, 2015, 01:11 PM

Interesting point Jack.

The quote of cited by moderate Muslims 'to kill one person, is to kill all of mankind' does not contain the whole truth. If you look at the Verse in the Quran 5:32 it makes two exceptions: "except murderers and those who make mischief in the world". The following verse 5:33 goes more into detail and says whom and how you are allowed to kill.

But to be honest that's just what I have read in this article about the killings in Paris: http://hpd.de/artikel/10970?nopaging=1 It's in German.

My questions would be if it says in the Quran says something about killing unbelievers even if they didn't attack Muslims. Many moderate Muslims say that you are just allow to kill in self-defense.
- Kodanshi
- La solitude s'eprend de mon coeur
- Ex-Muslim
- *Careful Plague & Scarred Joy*
- offline
Which is the 'real' Islam?
Reply #5 - January 29, 2015, 01:15 PM

^ Also, isn't that qur'anic quote something that allah revealed to the Jews? You could argue, therefore, that it doesn't apply to muslims.
- ElToro
- Ex-Muslim
- offline
Which is the 'real' Islam?
Reply #6 - January 29, 2015, 01:18 PM

Yes it says something in the beginning about "sons of Israel".
- yeezevee
- Pub Regular
- offline
Which is the 'real' Islam?
Reply #7 - January 29, 2015, 01:21 PM

Quote from: Kodanshi on January 29, 2015, 01:09 PM
Deliberately chosen. Islamic errorism.

Oh I see., errorism...errorists.. good words., Well by definition, all religions have errors, errorism...errorists.. but Islam beats every other errorism by its sheer numbers and silly verses in its so-called scriptures..

anyways going back to Jack Torrance post
Quote from: Jack Torrance on January 29, 2015, 12:29 PM
Some of you may have already come across this video, but the guy (now an ex Muslim) ...........
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2u9BNpLThqA&feature=youtu.be

i guess he turned from Jihadist to ex-Muslim to now Christan evangelist

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
- kephas
- Member
- offline
Which is the 'real' Islam?
Reply #8 - January 29, 2015, 03:39 PM

to me, it's pretty clear. for a thousand years, muslims didn't have a problem with slavery, sex with kids, beating women, jihad al talab, imposing jizya, killing apostates, killing those who insult the prophet, etc. all the scholars were mostly unanimous in their rulings.

suddenly, the west comes in contact with muslims with their "human rights" and their "humanistic" ideals which came from the enlightenment. then we start seeing this claim that "oh, that's not the real Islam" coming from Muslims. even though such doctrines have been agreed upon for more than a thousand years.

to me, coming from a sunni background, to establish what islam really teaches, you go back to the Koran, the sunnah, the salaf, and the ijma of the scholars. and strangely enough, these sources agree that islam does allow/call for slavery, sex with kids, beating women, jihad al talab, imposing jizya, killing apostates, killing those who insult the prophet, etc.

so yeah, if we go back to the sources, I bet that you'll find that Allah is more pleased with people in daish than these "moderate" muslims.

also, the "to kill one man" is not ruling on muslims, it's a quote from the Talmud which the author of the quran mistakenly taught that it was Allah's command on the Israelites. muslims aren't bound by the ruling.

"we stand firm calling to allah all the time,
we let them know - bang! bang! - coz it's dawah time!"
- yeezevee
- Pub Regular
- offline
Which is the 'real' Islam?
Reply #9 - January 29, 2015, 03:42 PM

Quote from: kephas on January 29, 2015, 03:39 PM
to me, it's pretty clear. for a thousand years, muslims didn't have a problem with slavery,...........

well kephas, many non-Muslims also didn't have problem with slavery all the way to 1980's and even after that..

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
- ElToro
- Ex-Muslim
- offline
Which is the 'real' Islam?
Reply #10 - January 29, 2015, 07:35 PM

Quote from: kephas on January 29, 2015, 03:39 PM
to me, it's pretty clear. for a thousand years, muslims didn't have a problem with slavery, sex with kids,

I knew that Mo had sex with the 9 year old Aisha, but I thought after the Quran it's forbidden to have sex with kids who are not in their puberty (I know that kids in their puberty are also kids). Is it out of a Hadis, that it's allow? Because the Prophet has done it?
- Nikolaj
- Pub Regular
- Yes, I have a duck fetish!
- offline
Which is the 'real' Islam?
Reply #11 - January 29, 2015, 07:46 PM

Well 65:4 tells how to divorce your women who haven't started to menstruate yet. So I guess it is a matter of interpretation.

Danish Never-Moose adopted by the kind people on the CEMB-forum
Ex-Muslim chat (Unaffliated with CEMB). Safari users: Use "#ex-muslims" as the channel name. CEMB chat thread.
- bogart
- Pub Regular
- offline
Which is the 'real' Islam?
Reply #12 - January 29, 2015, 10:09 PM

Quote from: Kodanshi on January 29, 2015, 01:15 PM
^ Also, isn't that qur'anic quote something that allah revealed to the Jews? You could argue, therefore, that it doesn't apply to muslims.

Nope it's commentary in the Talmud which is strictly not divine in origin
- Kodanshi
- La solitude s'eprend de mon coeur
- Ex-Muslim
- *Careful Plague & Scarred Joy*
- offline
Which is the 'real' Islam?
Reply #13 - January 29, 2015, 10:30 PM

We're talking about the qur'anic version here, not the actual origin of the phrase.
- serpentofeden
- Pub Regular
- offline
Which is the 'real' Islam?
Reply #14 - January 29, 2015, 11:25 PM

There isn't any REAL or TRUE Islam anymore then there is a REAL or TRUE Quackery
- Zimriel
- Member
- offline
Which is the 'real' Islam?
Reply #15 - January 30, 2015, 01:35 AM

Quote from: kephas on January 29, 2015, 03:39 PM
to me, coming from a sunni background, to establish what islam really teaches, you go back to the Koran, the sunnah, the salaf, and the ijma of the scholars. and strangely enough, these sources agree that islam does allow/call for slavery, sex with kids, beating women, jihad al talab, imposing jizya, killing apostates, killing those who insult the prophet, etc. so yeah, if we go back to the sources, I bet that you'll find that Allah is more pleased with people in daish than these "moderate" muslims.

Either that or Allah is an Ibadi who had to move to Oman because he rejected Sunni and Shia fiqh and khilafa. Or - better - an old-school rafidi Shiite who doesn't even agree with the current Qur'anic text, in which case he's hangin' in that well with Muhammad al-Mahdi waiting for Lassie to pull them both out.

Jokes aside, I think the Baha'ullah was right. A reform movement in Islam today, to make it pro-human, could well require a new Prophet. And I've had poor luck even with Baha'is explaining how the Qur'an might not be the intent of Muhammad; they are stuck with Shoghi Effendi, who endorsed the Book as the Umayyads endorsed it.
- JH121
- Ex-Muslim
- Radical Agnostic
- offline
Which is the 'real' Islam?
Reply #16 - February 03, 2015, 07:25 PM

It's interesting. I believe that in terms of what is said in the Quran and Hadith, the more conservative and hardcore view favoured by countries like KSA is far closer to it than the more reasonable version practised by many western Muslims, including my family.
1« Previous thread | Next thread »