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 Topic: Quran changes - link please

 (Read 6051 times)
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  • Quran changes - link please
     OP - January 20, 2015, 09:05 AM

    Hi, all

    I got into a dispute with a Muslim the other day when he asserted the Quran had never been altered. I told him I could forward some links about it and he challenged me to deliver.

    So, CEMBers, please help deliver. Please linky me anything you've got or point me in the direction of where they're listed.

    Cheers.

    Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends.
  • Quran changes - link please
     Reply #1 - January 20, 2015, 02:36 PM

    there's a paper called "Sanaa 1 and the Origins of the Quran" by Behnam Sadeghi and Mohsen Goudarzi. someone's made a table out of it in the sanaa manuscript Wikipedia page. from the sanaa manuscripts, words and even entire phrases have been either added, deleted or changed from the quran.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sana'a_manuscript#Variants

    here's another link about the sanaa manuscripts, the page quotes the work of Elisabeth Puin, which shows again that words and phrases have been either added, deleted or changed from the quran.

    http://www.answering-islam.org/authors/oskar/palimpsest.html

    "we stand firm calling to allah all the time,
    we let them know - bang! bang! - coz it's dawah time!"
  • Quran changes - link please
     Reply #2 - January 20, 2015, 02:40 PM

    Hi, all

    I got into a dispute with a Muslim the other day when he asserted the Quran had never been altered. I told him I could forward some links about it and he challenged me to deliver.

    So, CEMBers, please help deliver. Please linky me anything you've got or point me in the direction of where they're listed.

    Cheers.


    Personally I don't get into debates about whether the Qur'an has changed or not. It's a difficult one to prove categorically - and makes no difference either way.

    Even if it were true that it has never changed, it doesn't mean it is divine.
  • Quran changes - link please
     Reply #3 - January 20, 2015, 02:45 PM

    I wouldn't get into the debate about Qur'an changes. It's a difficult one to prove categorically.

    For me it's a red herring when someone make the claim "The Qur'an has never changed - not one letter!!" Because that doesn't prove it is the word of God.

    but didn't Allah say "Verily, we have sent down the Reminder, and, verily, we will guard it" (15:9)? surely if Gandalf could show that the quran has been changed, then he could make the case that Allah slept on the job?

    "we stand firm calling to allah all the time,
    we let them know - bang! bang! - coz it's dawah time!"
  • Quran changes - link please
     Reply #4 - January 20, 2015, 02:57 PM



    I sometimes refer to the answering-islam site as it does at times have some good articles - and he sure does the leg work.

    But then you get stuff like this that just makes me want laugh or cry or both lol

    So his conclusion to the discrepancies in the Sana'a manuscripts is:

    Quote
    4. Where do we go from here?

    It has become clear that the Quran is not a record of the exact words revealed by God. Instead, the palimpsest, known as ‘DAM 0 1-27.1,’ demonstrates clearly that the holy book of Muslims has gone through stages of historical developments. There are at least three ways people can respond to these facts:

    A. Anger

    B. Ignorance

    C. Jesus


    Yep and personally I would give the anger and ignorance responses a miss and just go straight for Jesus.

    It's the only logical response.

     grin12
  • Quran changes - link please
     Reply #5 - January 20, 2015, 02:58 PM

    Hi, all

    I got into a dispute with a Muslim the other day when he asserted the Quran had never been altered. I told him I could forward some links about it and he challenged me to deliver.

    So, CEMBers, please help deliver. Please linky me anything you've got or point me in the direction of where they're listed.

    Cheers.

    hello Gandalf... these are endless circular debates that offers no results., Ask that person to join CEMB., I  WILL SHOW WHY  QURAN IS NOT WORD OF ALLAH/GOD whatever.  I don't care whether some 800 pages book that allegedly was put together/written by someone some 1400 years ago changed or not., In fact  any such book/volume/paper that is not read,  not edited at least twice before it became a book  is a STUPID BOOK  with full of bullshit.

    But that is not the point here.,   The point is, Why an unchanged unedited   book(even if it is error less)  should be a word of god/allah whatever is the question to answer.  Yesterday I wrote this somewhere in the forum

    Quote
     Quran is NOT word of god., No book.. no saying..no sound is word of god,  they all evolved with time. If Quran is word of god then every sound from every hole of any biological species is word of god.. .. and this god is a cartoon character that controls all the known universe  with billions of galaxies and trillions of stars and planets  and.and  and the unknown universe beyond what we know today..

    and I stick to that. Anyways,  I am glad that you are still active  out there dear Gandalf.

    and Happy new year to you
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Quran changes - link please
     Reply #6 - January 20, 2015, 03:02 PM

    but didn't Allah say "Verily, we have sent down the Reminder, and, verily, we will guard it" (15:9)? surely if Gandalf could show that the quran has been changed, then he could make the case that Allah slept on the job?


    If we eventually get some solid evidence of changes and some good peer reviews of the studies on the San'a manuscripts then I would say, yes - it might get through to some (only some) that the Qur'an has changed.

    As it is - in my experience - Muslims will simply dismiss it as inconclusive.

    But by all means try  Smiley
  • Quran changes - link please
     Reply #7 - January 20, 2015, 03:09 PM

    I sometimes refer to the answering-islam site as it does at times have some good articles - and he sure does the leg work.

    But then you get stuff like this that just makes me want laugh or cry or both lol

    So his conclusion to the discrepancies in the Sana'a manuscripts is:

    Yep and personally I would give the anger and ignorance responses a miss and just go straight for Jesus.

    It's the only logical response.

     grin12

    lol yeah. I just ignore the apologetic stuff on there. they do good research tho

    "we stand firm calling to allah all the time,
    we let them know - bang! bang! - coz it's dawah time!"
  • Quran changes - link please
     Reply #8 - January 20, 2015, 03:11 PM


    ............ and just go straight for Jesus.

    It's the only logical response.

     grin12

     that poor Jewish guy who allegedly started his ministry  when he was 26 and   wrote all those NT Books  in 7 years or so  and  died/murdered/killed/crucified  at an young age of 33  indeed get kicked by every one. And if we use similar  logic as these believers., then Yap  Jesus is the right answer..  he should be blamed..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Quran changes - link please
     Reply #9 - January 20, 2015, 05:22 PM

    I sometimes refer to the answering-islam site as it does at times have some good articles - and he sure does the leg work.

    But then you get stuff like this that just makes me want laugh or cry or both lol

    So his conclusion to the discrepancies in the Sana'a manuscripts is:

    Yep and personally I would give the anger and ignorance responses a miss and just go straight for Jesus.

    It's the only logical response.

     grin12

    So basically the fact that Islam is not true means that Christianity is true? That's some arrogance these guys have got!
  • Quran changes - link please
     Reply #10 - January 20, 2015, 07:01 PM

    Look ye into the inscriptions on the Dome of the Rock and though shall find what thy seek.
  • Quran changes - link please
     Reply #11 - January 20, 2015, 08:33 PM

    So basically the fact that Islam is not true means that Christianity is true? That's some arrogance these guys have got!


    It's fallacious thinking, Argument from ignorance.
  • Quran changes - link please
     Reply #12 - January 20, 2015, 10:43 PM

    It is largely a pointless exercise because Muslims have a set of non-falsifiable answers.

    Show the early Qur'anic manuscripts are different?  A:  The oral tradition is what matters, manuscripts are secondary.

    Show that there are a vast swarm of different Qur'anic recitations that Islamic tradition reports?  A:  The *orthodox* oral qira'at are what matter.

    We've found a quite different early Qur'an, cited above by Kephas, the Sanaa I palimpsest.  But Muslims won't care, because you could have 10,000 completely different early Qur'anic manuscripts and they would respond with faith that the seven orthodox qira'at finalized after centuries and enforced with legal edict were all authorized by Mohammed himself, the manuscripts don't matter.

    Similarly, you can show many obvious interpolations in the Cairo Qur'anic text, and tons of remarkable discontinuities and inconsistencies, and Muslims will simply explain this away by reference to various alleged events in the biography of Mohammed, or that Mohammed was speaking ecstatically, or that it is just a mystery.

    You are dealing with an uncritical mindset that does not accept evidence as meaningful.  In fairness, Jews and Christians responded exactly the same to the emergence of modern critical studies in the 19th Century, which has had negligible impact on the community of Jewish and Christian believers.

    I would also say that the texts of all of these religions were actually quite well preserved, and it is less *corruption in transmission* of the canonized text than *composition of the canonized text* that is the problem.  Religious people are usually obsessed about textual corruption and perfection for theological reasons, but that's rarely the interesting issue -- how the text was originally COMPOSED is the interesting issue, not how it was transmitted.  In the case of the Qur'an, the 'variant Qur'anic codices' reported by Islamic tradition reflect the last stages of codification and canonization, when relatively little maneuvering remained and a largely static base text was almost imposed.  It's a downright miracle that we found the Sanaa I palimpsest.
  • Quran changes - link please
     Reply #13 - January 20, 2015, 10:52 PM

    It's a downright miracle that we found the Sanaa I palimpsest.


    I've been waiting for some results and conclusions from the in-depth analysis of these manuscripts by scholars in the field of Qur'anic studies, but I've yet to see much at all.

    I thought this was going to be a massive bombshell that was going to re-write the traditional view of the Qur'an, when I first heard about it some years ago.

    But I haven't seen much published about it.

    Have I missed it?

    Is it coming soon?
  • Quran changes - link please
     Reply #14 - January 20, 2015, 10:53 PM

    ..............  It's a downright miracle that we found the Sanaa I palimpsest...........

    well on that note let put this link today's news says  Biblical scholar claims to have found the oldest known Gospel — inside a mummy mask

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8kPgACbtRRs

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Quran changes - link please
     Reply #15 - January 20, 2015, 11:01 PM

    .............

    But I haven't seen much published about it.

    Have I missed it?

    Is it coming soon?

    well people are still working., that is not an an easy job..

    http://idb.ub.uni-tuebingen.de/diglit/MaVI165
    http://www.uni-tuebingen.de/en/news/press-releases/newsfullview-pressemitteilungen/article/raritaet-entdeckt-koranhandschrift-stammt-aus-der-fruehzeit-des-islam.html
    http://www.scribd.com/doc/110978941/Sanaa-1-and-the-Origins-of-the-Qur-An#scribd
    http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Text/Mss/soth.html
    http://www.justislam.co.uk/images/The%20Quranic%20Manuscripts.pdf

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Quran changes - link please
     Reply #16 - January 20, 2015, 11:08 PM

    I've been waiting for some results and conclusions from the in-depth analysis of these manuscripts by scholars in the field of Qur'anic studies, but I've yet to see much at all.

    I thought this was going to be a massive bombshell that was going to re-write the traditional view of the Qur'an, when I first heard about it some years ago.

    But I haven't seen much published about it.

    Have I missed it?

    Is it coming soon?



    Sadeghi and Goudarzi published half of their reading of the Arabic text in that article cited above, but for some reason I can't fathom no other scholars have really seemed to comment upon its specifics.  There are articles by Elisabeth Puin and A. Fedeli, and then the Sadeghi article .... and that's basically it for discussing the actual variants.

    From what I can tell of what has been reported in English and German, it looks to me like both the Sanaa I palimpsest and the standard Uthmanic text have freely deviated in many probably somewhat minor ways from a slightly older shared base text.  In some places additional explanations have been added, and in other places additional phrasing has been added.  That Answering Islam website gives one specific example where it is very clear that the Uthmanic text has added some more text that makes little grammatical or textual sense relative to the Sanaa I version of the verse, and this (to me) is clearly a scribal corruption.

    But I am still dying of curiosity to see people weigh in on each individual variation, since each one has to be taken on its own terms and analyzed separately.  Sadeghi tries to argue that the Uthmanic text should 'en masse' be considered 'closer to the prophetic original,' but I think that is untenable since it's clear that both texts have departed from older texts and each variation between them must be carefully analyzed to determine which was changed and why, consistent with normal critical practice.  It's not a question of 'more accurate text' or 'less accurate text,' it's a question of what changes can be shown by comparing the two and applying sensible critical analysis to that variant (for example, when an explanatory phrase is inconsistent with the overall grammar/semantics of the verse, and that phrase is absent from the other text, it is surely a later addition).

    It's particularly disappointing since revisionist scholars were leading the charge on this manuscript (particularly Elisabeth Puin), but now the neotraditionalists (Sadeghi particularly) have been carrying the analysis forward and trying to do damage control by fitting it within Islamic tradition as best they can.  Sadly, the Puins don't seem to be doing much with it anymore, Deroche thinks it's fascinating but isn't doing anything either, and few other revisionist scholars are qualified to opine about the readings and instead have to wait to be handed them.

    Since you yourself can read Qur'anic Arabic, I would be very curious about what you think of the Sanaa I text variations as reported by that Sadeghi article (complete text is printed at the end).
  • Quran changes - link please
     Reply #17 - January 20, 2015, 11:29 PM

    Since you yourself can read Qur'anic Arabic, I would be very curious about what you think of the Sanaa I text variations as reported by that Sadeghi article (complete text is printed at the end).


    Do you mean the ones reported in the answering-islam article. I thought it made a very valid point about the words (والآخرة = and the next life) which are missing from the Sanaa text but present in the standard text - it doesn't really suit the sentence which is says God will punish those who turn away and they will have no one to help them in the land/earth.

    I don't think that's the Sadeghi article - could you link to it. I may have missed it.
  • Quran changes - link please
     Reply #18 - January 20, 2015, 11:36 PM

    That Answering Islam article does make a valid and (to me) quite convincing point, but it only does so for that one particular variation, where the Cairo Qur'an text clearly seems to have added some language to the more consistent and archaic original version that is displayed in the lower text of the Sanaa I palimpsest.

    But what about all the other variations!  Inquiring minds want to know!  I have no doubt that the Answering Islam example is one of the best examples where it seems most obvious that the Cairo Qur'an text is corrupted. But I have little doubt there are other variations where it goes the other way, and the Sanaa I text looks corrupted compared to the Cairo Qur'an text.

    The full Sadeghi article is here, and gives their reading of almost half of the manuscript's lower text at its end:

    http://www.scribd.com/doc/110978941/Sanaa-1-and-the-Origins-of-the-Qur-An#scribd
  • Quran changes - link please
     Reply #19 - January 20, 2015, 11:39 PM

    Thanks, Zaotar - as it's quite long, and its nearly midnight, I'll have a look tomorrow and get back to you - inshallah  Wink
  • Quran changes - link please
     Reply #20 - January 21, 2015, 09:07 AM

    abu ali, if reading the sadeghi article is quite long, then someone's already made a table of the variants between the cairo quran and the sanaa manuscript noted in the sadeghi article in the wikipedia page:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sana'a_manuscript#Variants

    "we stand firm calling to allah all the time,
    we let them know - bang! bang! - coz it's dawah time!"
  • Quran changes - link please
     Reply #21 - January 21, 2015, 09:53 AM

    .............. cairo quran and the sanaa manuscript .................

    on that yemenfox.news said  with this picture..



    Quote
    Quranic parchments, mummified animal found in Sana'a great mosque

    Government official announced coming across a Quranic parchments thought to be dated back to first centuries of hegira in addition to mummified animal.

    State-run news agency Saba quoted Undersecretary of Culture Ministry for manuscripts and book affairs, Muqbil al-Tam Aamer al-Ahmadi, as saying that Quranic parchments, dated back to first centuries of hegira if not the first century of hegira, including an incomplete copy of the Holy Quran, were found inside the roof of the Great Mosque in Sana'a.  He said that a mummified animal was also found in the same place in a good condition and without containing preserve substances.

    Mr. Ahmadi stated that a group of Quranic parchments were found 40 years ago in the Great Mosque in Sana'a during restoration of the mosque's roof then, adding that they were preserved in Historic Manuscript House in Sana'a.

    He said that the place where the new parchments were found is a place which was excluded from the first restoration, and when restoration is carried out in the place nowadays, many masterpieces have been preserved by the will of God for many centuries.


    now i wonder about when that animal died and whether that animal preserved the manuscript or manuscript preserved the dead body of animal  Anyways .. It is a miracle.. miracle.. Islamic miracle..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Quran changes - link please
     Reply #22 - January 21, 2015, 10:08 AM

    Its the hot and dry conditions yeez
  • Quran changes - link please
     Reply #23 - January 21, 2015, 12:21 PM

    Its the hot and dry conditions yeez

    well  then it is a miracle., hot and dry conditions is because of Allah.,  Is that a dog dead next Quran?? That is another miracle .. Allah made the dog to protect quran..

    It was narrated from Abu Hurayrah (may Allaah be pleased with him) that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Whoever keeps a dog, except a dog for herding, hunting or farming, one qiraat will be deducted from his reward each day.” Narrated by Muslim, 1575.

    It was narrated that ‘Abd-Allaah ibn ‘Umar (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Whoever keeps a dog, except a dog for herding livestock or a dog that is trained for hunting, two qiraats will be deducted from his reward each day.” Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 5163; Muslim, 1574.

    idiots.....

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Quran changes - link please
     Reply #24 - January 21, 2015, 10:16 PM

    Since you yourself can read Qur'anic Arabic, I would be very curious about what you think of the Sanaa I text variations as reported by that Sadeghi article (complete text is printed at the end).


    I must confess they are not earth shattering.

    They certainly show concreted differences and make it hard for Muslims to maintain the claim that the Qu'an has not been altered in any way.

    But they don't appear to change the general meaning substantially.

    I thought the variation in 2:201 was an interesting one. It shows the addition of of the word "hasanatan" (good), which appears to be elucidation for "aatinaa"(give us):



    وَمِنْهُم مَّن يَقُولُ رَبَّنَا آتِنَا فِي الدُّنْيَا والآخِرَةِ وَقِنَا عَذَابَ النَّارِ

    وَمِنْهُم مَّن يَقُولُ رَبَّنَا آتِنَا فِي الدُّنْيَا حَسَنَةً وَفِي الآخِرَةِ حَسَنَةً وَقِنَا عَذَابَ النَّارِ


    I suspect you are right that this text, rather than reflecting an original/earlier source - is more likely to be a variant taken from other earlier sources, from which the "Uthmanic" version was also drawn.
  • Quran changes - link please
     Reply #25 - January 21, 2015, 10:25 PM

    But I am still dying of curiosity to see people weigh in on each individual variation, since each one has to be taken on its own terms and analyzed separately.


    Yes, me too!!

    It seems to me there is so much there that can be scrutinised and help towards kick-starting a truly scholarly appreciation of the Qur'anic text.
  • Quran changes - link please
     Reply #26 - January 21, 2015, 10:41 PM

    The Uthmanic text does seem to have more additions to the Sanaa text.

    This is verse 196 of al Baqara. The first is the Sanaa text and the second is the "Uthmanic" text. I have bracketed the changes in the Uthmanic text. They don't fundamentally change the overall meaning but seem more like explanations - i.e. don't shave (your heads). The Uthmanic text adds an extra option of giving "charity" (in addition to either fasting or a sacrificial offering) as expiation for those who are sick and so can't let their hair grow.*

    Also the Uthmanic text seems to be making slight improvements/smoothing to the text. i.e (اسْتَيْسَرَ) instead of تَيَسَّرَ and (فَمَن كَانَ) instead of فَإنْ كَانَ أَحَدٌ and (فَفِدْيَةٌ) instead of فِدْيَةٌ


    وَأَتِمُّواْ الْحَجَّ وَالْعُمْرَةَ لِلَّهِ فَإِنْ أُحْصِرْتُمْ فَمَا تَيَسَّرَ مِنَ الْهَدْيِ وَلاَ تَحْلِقُواْ حَتَّى يَبْلُغَ الْهَدْيُ مَحِلَّهُ فَإنْ كَانَ أَحَدٌ مِنكُم مَّرِيضًا أَوْ بِهِ أَذًى مِّن رَّأْسِهِ فِدْيَةٌ مِّن صِيَامٍ أَوْ نُسُكٍ فَإِذَا أَمِنتُمْ فَمَن تَمَتَّعَ بِالْعُمْرَةِ إِلَى الْحَجِّ فَمَا اسْتَيْسَرَ مِنَ الْهَدْيِ فَمَن لَّمْ يَجِدْ فَصِيَامُ ثَلاثَةِ أَيَّامٍ فِي الْحَجِّ وَسَبْعَةٍ إِذَا رَجَعْتُمْ تِلْكَ عَشَرَةٌ كَامِلَةٌ ذَلِكَ لِمَن لَّمْ يَكُنْ أَهْلُهُ حَاضِرِي الْمَسْجِدِ الْحَرَامِ وَاتَّقُواْ اللَّهَ وَاعْلَمُواْ أَنَّ اللَّهَ شَدِيدُ الْعِقَابِ

    وَأَتِمُّواْ الْحَجَّ وَالْعُمْرَةَ لِلَّهِ فَإِنْ أُحْصِرْتُمْ فَمَا (اسْتَيْسَرَ) مِنَ الْهَدْيِ وَلاَ تَحْلِقُواْ (رُؤُوسَكُمْ) حَتَّى يَبْلُغَ الْهَدْيُ مَحِلَّهُ (فَمَن كَانَ) مِنكُم مَّرِيضًا أَوْ بِهِ أَذًى مِّن رَّأْسِهِ (فَفِدْيَةٌ) مِّن صِيَامٍ (أَوْ صَدَقَةٍ) أَوْ نُسُكٍ فَإِذَا أَمِنتُمْ فَمَن تَمَتَّعَ بِالْعُمْرَةِ إِلَى الْحَجِّ فَمَا اسْتَيْسَرَ مِنَ الْهَدْيِ فَمَن لَّمْ يَجِدْ فَصِيَامُ ثَلاثَةِ أَيَّامٍ فِي الْحَجِّ وَسَبْعَةٍ إِذَا رَجَعْتُمْ تِلْكَ عَشَرَةٌ كَامِلَةٌ ذَلِكَ لِمَن لَّمْ يَكُنْ أَهْلُهُ حَاضِرِي الْمَسْجِدِ الْحَرَامِ وَاتَّقُواْ اللَّهَ وَاعْلَمُواْ أَنَّ اللَّهَ شَدِيدُ الْعِقَابِ


    *What illness prevents one from letting their hair grow - anyone know?
  • Quran changes - link please
     Reply #27 - January 21, 2015, 11:03 PM

    Conversely, however, in this next verse, it seems it is the Sanaa text that is offering an explanatory addition rather than the Uthmanic one - perhaps suggesting they were not editing each other - but editing another source.

    63:7

    Sanaa text:
    They are the ones who say, "Do not spend on those who are with the Messenger of Allah until they disband." (from around him). And to Allah belongs the depositories of the heavens and the earth, but the hypocrites do not understand.

    Uthmanic:
    They are the ones who say, "Do not spend on those who are with the Messenger of Allah until they disband." And to Allah belongs the depositories of the heavens and the earth, but the hypocrites do not understand.



    هُمُ الَّذِينَ يَقُولُونَ لا تُنفِقُوا عَلَى مَنْ عِندَ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ حَتَّى يَنفَضُّوا مِنْ حَوْلِهِ وَلِلَّهِ خَزَائِنُ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالأَرْضِ وَلَكِنَّ الْمُنَافِقِينَ لا يَفْقَهُونَ

    هُمُ الَّذِينَ يَقُولُونَ لا تُنفِقُوا عَلَى مَنْ عِندَ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ حَتَّى يَنفَضُّوا وَلِلَّهِ خَزَائِنُ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالأَرْضِ وَلَكِنَّ الْمُنَافِقِينَ لا يَفْقَهُونَ

  • Quran changes - link please
     Reply #28 - January 21, 2015, 11:07 PM

    abu ali, if reading the sadeghi article is quite long, then someone's already made a table of the variants between the cairo quran and the sanaa manuscript noted in the sadeghi article in the wikipedia page:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sana'a_manuscript#Variants


    Thanks, Kephas - I took a look  Afro
  • Quran changes - link please
     Reply #29 - January 21, 2015, 11:11 PM

    Thanks Abu Ali, that's extremely interesting and pretty consistent with how I had understood the scope of the variations (but hard to get a sense of it when you can't read it directly).  They seem to be relatively minor explanations, clarifications, and additions, and both texts seem to show similar levels of later editing from an earlier textual source.

    But perhaps equally important are the *orthographic* variations, or what Sadeghi takes to be orthographic variations, which are not listed in that wikipedia link.  These may give us fascinating insights into the linguistic climate when these texts were being written down, and also one man's 'orthographic variant' is another man's 'different word.'  Sadeghi, being a neotraditionalist, is inclined to downplay the scope and nature of the orthographic variation.  Unfortunately analyzing the significance of such orthographic variation in early manuscripts is practically impossible for non-specialists.

    Looking at the more major variants, it seems that the scope of permissible scribal interpolation at this particular point in time was already relatively limited ... clearly the differences between the Sanaa I text and the so-called Uthmanic rasm are of the type that were still being worked out after the main text had been written.  Additional material was used to sort of spruce things up and explain really baffling points, or to add more emphasis (like the extra 'hellfire' content in the Cairo edition 9:74, where a later scribe evidently added 'and in the hereafter' to make sure nobody misunderstands Allah's punishment as being limited to this world, but failed to modify the surrounding text to make it more grammatically and semantically coherent with the change.).

    If you know Deroche's work on the other earliest Qur'anic manuscript, BNF Arabe 328, it shows somewhat similar rasm variants, although still much less than those in Sanaa I.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Parisino-petropolitanus

    The level of variation shown by the Cairo text and the Sanaa I text from a presumed ancestral text suggests that they were both deviating from an earlier canonical text that had not been written much earlier, and which was already seen as 'holy scripture,' but which lacked very strict control over its modification and textual supplementation.  My personal guess is that the timeframe was consistent with what traditional Islam gives, meaning the main Qur'an rasm was basically finalized as a state project in the 650/660 timeframe, with what we call the Uthmanic Qur'an and the Sanaa I codex, as well as other 'companion codices,' being generated shortly after that timeframe, and then one of them (the 'Uthmanic') becoming progressively dominant and with an increasingly defined orthography, while the others were attributed to 'companions' and defined as being outside of orthodoxy.  Probably the earliest Qur'an manuscript (in the sense of a true compilation of many surahs) had different surah orders and verse divisions than the Cairo text ultimately ended up with.  It would have looked like a 'companion codex.'  But the contents of each surah would not have looked much different at all.  In so many respects, the Qur'an is remarkably conservative, and seems to lack much modification to reflect later Islamic history.  That is part of what makes it so interesting.
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