Skip navigation
Sidebar -

Advanced search options →

Welcome

Welcome to CEMB forum.
Please login or register. Did you miss your activation email?

Donations

Help keep the Forum going!
Click on Kitty to donate:

Kitty is lost

Recent Posts


Qur'anic studies today
Yesterday at 08:44 PM

Lights on the way
by akay
Yesterday at 04:40 PM

اضواء على الطريق ....... ...
by akay
Yesterday at 12:50 PM

Do humans have needed kno...
Yesterday at 04:17 AM

What's happened to the fo...
by zeca
April 18, 2024, 06:39 PM

New Britain
April 18, 2024, 05:41 PM

Do humans have needed kno...
April 18, 2024, 05:47 AM

Iran launches drones
April 13, 2024, 09:56 PM

عيد مبارك للجميع! ^_^
by akay
April 12, 2024, 04:01 PM

Eid-Al-Fitr
by akay
April 12, 2024, 12:06 PM

Mock Them and Move on., ...
January 30, 2024, 10:44 AM

Pro Israel or Pro Palesti...
January 29, 2024, 01:53 PM

Theme Changer

 Topic: Secular Pro-Life Debate

 (Read 17118 times)
  • Previous page 1 2« Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Secular Pro-Life Debate
     Reply #30 - March 01, 2016, 01:04 PM

    Many abortions involve going in and breaking the fetus skull in order to get it out. This is very much killing the fetus

    Even the aspiration vacuum procedures in the first trimester involve sucking the fetus out, tearing apart its structure (effectively killing it) and not merely removing it from its supply of nourishment


    It's grisly, and traumatic, yeah. It's also very much besides the point. Which is why this debate is starting to bore me. So I'll wait until we get input from other members before I chip in again. Au revoir.

    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Secular Pro-Life Debate
     Reply #31 - March 01, 2016, 04:01 PM

    I only said that to point out that abortion actively kills and is not a mere, passive pulling the plug. There is an ethical distinction.

    I'm not just trying to score emotional points.

    "I moreover believe that any religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, cannot be a true system."
    -Thomas Paine
  • Secular Pro-Life Debate
     Reply #32 - March 01, 2016, 04:02 PM

    It's "life" from the moment it's a little spermy and eggy in mum and dad's reproductive organs. Question is when the life matters in a way that it can be compared to the needs of an indisputable person.


    Thus why I didn't ask for a definition of life, but a definition of personhood. That's essentially what this debate boils down to.

    "I moreover believe that any religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, cannot be a true system."
    -Thomas Paine
  • Secular Pro-Life Debate
     Reply #33 - March 02, 2016, 02:04 AM

    Many abortions involve going in and breaking the fetus skull in order to get it out. This is very much killing the fetus

    Even the aspiration vacuum procedures in the first trimester involve sucking the fetus out, tearing apart its structure (effectively killing it) and not merely removing it from its supply of nourishment


    That's not really a fair comparison. The fetus is a parasite to the woman's body. Without the woman the fetus wouldn't live. Breaking the fetus skull is just a method to get it out the easiest way. It can go the hard way, maybe just go with stillbirth and the fetus still wouldn't live.


    Just by the virtue of getting out of the womb will kill the fetus.

    Quote
    Thus why I didn't ask for a definition of life, but a definition of personhood. That's essentially what this debate boils down to.


    I mean, this is a fair philosophical matter, but your definition of personhood shouldn't bleed over to restrict woman's rights. Women who don't want abortion are free to not do it. Women who want abortion should be able to get it.
  • Secular Pro-Life Debate
     Reply #34 - March 02, 2016, 08:06 PM

    I mean, this is a fair philosophical matter, but your definition of personhood shouldn't bleed over to restrict woman's rights. Women who don't want abortion are free to not do it. Women who want abortion should be able to get it.


    If the definition of personhood used to prevent us from killing coma patients also encompassed a fetus' right to life, then it would require special pleading to have legalized abortions. If this was true, the fetus' right to life should supercede the woman's right to choice. So if philosophically we cannot find a justification for allowing abortions while respecting coma patients right to life, our legal code should follow. The justification for women's rights are at their base, philosophical. So if abortion fails philosophically, a woman's right to choose does not encompass abortion.

    However, I've been thinking more and have changed my mind on the definition. Thinking about a case in which a woman's life was endangered and could possibly die if an early fetus wasn't aborted, I realized that my earlier definition of personhood would leave her the choices of either dying or being a murderer. This didn't sit well with my moral intuitions, as I still see the fetus as at least less of a person than the mother and extending full rights to the fetus led to absurdities like the previous case.

    I've also been watching lectures by Shelly Kagan on the philosophy of death. His theory of identity is probably the best I've heard of and can potentially reconcile the two cases of the coma patient and the fetus. His theory of identity (personhood) is contingent on whether a persons personality is functioning. Of course, every time you go to sleep or get knocked unconscious, your personality stops functioning, but he gets around this by making a distinction between a personality being turned off, versus not being there at all. In a patient in a vegetative state or a fetus, the underlying structures of personality are simply not there at all, versus in a coma patient, even when higher brain activity is not working, the personality is still there but inaccessible (turned off).

    The implication of this is that abortion is not murder if we are talking about the early stages of pregnancy. If the fetus is not to be considered a person under this definition, a woman's right to choice wins. However, I think this only applies to early stage pregnancy (first trimester), as I'm not convinced by the science that there is no sentience (personality) at all in later stage pregnancies and I think it's best to err on the safe side when it comes to life. I also think that failure to use responsible birth control leading to an aborted pregnancy is morally repugnant, but doesn't supercede a woman's right to choice.

    "I moreover believe that any religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, cannot be a true system."
    -Thomas Paine
  • Secular Pro-Life Debate
     Reply #35 - March 03, 2016, 12:53 AM

    Quote
    If the definition of personhood used to prevent us from killing coma patients also encompassed a fetus' right to life, then it would require special pleading to have legalized abortions. If this was true, the fetus' right to life should supercede the woman's right to choice. So if philosophically we cannot find a justification for allowing abortions while respecting coma patients right to life, our legal code should follow. The justification for women's rights are at their base, philosophical. So if abortion fails philosophically, a woman's right to choose does not encompass abortion.


    Coma patients =/= fetus. Coma patients don't live inside another human's body. Pulling the plug on coma patients is also not considered "killing" them.

    Quote
    Thinking about a case in which a woman's life was endangered and could possibly die if an early fetus wasn't aborted, I realized that my earlier definition of personhood would leave her the choices of either dying or being a murderer. This didn't sit well with my moral intuitions, as I still see the fetus as at least less of a person than the mother and extending full rights to the fetus led to absurdities like the previous case.


    Even if the woman's life wasn't endangered, do you really think that killing a fetus === killing a human?

    Many women lose their fetus before the 3months mark. What then, should she be arrested for negligence of not carrying it to full term 100%?
  • Secular Pro-Life Debate
     Reply #36 - March 03, 2016, 02:11 AM

    If you really think those are the positions I hold, you clearly haven't read my response carefully.

    "I moreover believe that any religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, cannot be a true system."
    -Thomas Paine
  • Secular Pro-Life Debate
     Reply #37 - March 03, 2016, 03:23 AM

    The problem with your position is that it's not thought out. You've already acknowledged that a fetus is "less of a person than the mother" and thus in certain situations a mother has the right to abort. Yet you also make the argument that a fetus has "personhood," because that's the only way you can grant it rights preventing the mother from aborting. A fetus is either a person or not. This "less of a person" nonsense sounds a lot like "some people are more equal than others" Orwellianism.

    Your argument is full of rationalizations. You're holding a position thinking backwards to justify it.
  • Secular Pro-Life Debate
     Reply #38 - March 03, 2016, 07:18 AM

    However, I've been thinking more and have changed my mind on the definition.

    His theory of identity is probably the best I've heard of and can potentially reconcile the two cases of the coma patient and the fetus. His theory of identity (personhood) is contingent on whether a persons personality is functioning.

    The implication of this is that abortion is not murder if we are talking about the early stages of pregnancy. If the fetus is not to be considered a person under this definition, a woman's right to choice wins.


    As people aren't understanding that I've changed my mind, I've boiled down my response to its main points for your reading comprehension. I'm saying that I've found a better definition of personhood after realizing that my definition can lead to moral problems. This new definition means that fetus's are not persons and coma patients are. As I spelled out earlier, under this definition, at least early stage abortions can be justified.

    My main objection to abortion earlier was I couldn't find any morally significant distinction between the coma patient and a fetus. Certainly, under the definition of personhood I was given earlier by asbie (a person is only a person if there is higher brain functioning) could not account for this. However, I have found a new definition that has reconciled this issue, clarified the subject, and I have changed my position accordingly.

    Is this clear enough? It's grating to continually be asked to defend positions you have expressed that you no longer hold.

    "I moreover believe that any religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, cannot be a true system."
    -Thomas Paine
  • Secular Pro-Life Debate
     Reply #39 - March 03, 2016, 08:27 AM

    If you really think those are the positions I hold, you clearly haven't read my response carefully.


    I read it, however your reasoning was that, if the woman's life was endangered.

    Even if the woman's life wasn't endangered, there are still many other (common) cases which make people either abort or miscarry. Sometimes even negligence (or gross negligence). While we can point fingers about the immorality, in many ways her "crime" is still not "murder".
  • Secular Pro-Life Debate
     Reply #40 - March 03, 2016, 12:07 PM

    As people aren't understanding that I've changed my mind, I've boiled down my response to its main points for your reading comprehension.

    That's exactly the post I was responding to.

    Your argument (not asbie's—you're the one who made that argument) is that a fetus has personhood. You did not retract this argument, but rather somehow managed to squeeze in another argument in the middle of it to allow for abortion in certain situations. But a fetus (let's just talk about in the first trimester here) is either a person or not. If it's a person, abortion is immoral; if it isn't, abortion is moral. There's no in between. You can't say a fetus is "less of a person than the mother" so it's acceptable to abort in certain situations but not others. If a fetus is "less of a person," it's perfectly moral to abort in all situations.

    As I said, your "less of a person" sounds Orwellian. You want to give the fetus equality to the mother, yet somehow recognize that the mother has more rights in certain situations. And somehow you think the fetus's being "less of a person" gives you the right to define those situations.

    If you recognize that a fetus is less of a person than the mother, then you've already conceded that a mother has decision-making power over that fetus.
  • Secular Pro-Life Debate
     Reply #41 - March 03, 2016, 05:21 PM

    Your argument (not asbie's—you're the one who made that argument) is that a fetus has personhood. You did not retract this argument, but rather somehow managed to squeeze in another argument in the middle of it to allow for abortion in certain situations.


    My intial *definition* of personhood included fetus's. I retracted that definition in favor of another definition.

    But a fetus (let's just talk about in the first trimester here) is either a person or not. If it's a person, abortion is immoral; if it isn't, abortion is moral. There's no in between.


    Yes. Under my new definition, a fetus without the underlying brain structures that make up personality is not a person.

    You can't say a fetus is "less of a person than the mother" so it's acceptable to abort in certain situations but not others. If a fetus is "less of a person," it's perfectly moral to abort in all situations.


    I'm saying it was my moral intuition that a fetus is at least less of a person than a mother. The problem with my old definition is it did not account for this and like you say either something is a person or not. So that is why I *changed* my definition to account for this. Under the new definition, a coma patient is a person and a fetus is not.

    And somehow you think the fetus's being "less of a person" gives you the right to define those situations.


    Except I don't think that. Under my current definition, a fetus is not a person.

    If you recognize that a fetus is less of a person than the mother, then you've already conceded that a mother has decision-making power over that fetus.


    Mmm that doesn't necessarily follow. But that's besides the point as once again it is not my view that a fetus is less of a person than the mother. A fetus is not a person.

    "I moreover believe that any religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, cannot be a true system."
    -Thomas Paine
  • Secular Pro-Life Debate
     Reply #42 - March 03, 2016, 05:46 PM

    as I still see the fetus as at least less of a person than the mother


    Maybe the misunderstanding is because I should have said "still saw". But of course I explicitly denied that a fetus has personhood multiple times, and that my definition has changed since then, so I think I've been fairly clear.

    "I moreover believe that any religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, cannot be a true system."
    -Thomas Paine
  • Previous page 1 2« Previous thread | Next thread »