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Theme Changer

 Topic: Greetings from the East

 (Read 3451 times)
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  • Greetings from the East
     OP - December 30, 2014, 04:11 AM

    Greetings, everyone!

    I have been lurking in the forum for a few days and have learnt quite a lot from it. It's wonderful to learn that there are so many atheists/agnostics etc from Muslim backgrounds, despite what I previously thought. I have finally decided to take the plunge after realizing that you accept never-Muslims as well.

    I would have to be honest and admit that I harboured quite a bit of prejudice against Islam/Muslims previously, and may still have lingering remnants of that in me; as well as a lot of ignorance in general about the topic. Please point them out when you see it and I would definitely apologize and learn from my mistakes.

    Now a little bit of self introduction. I was born in China and had never been religious. As you well know, the state is professed to be atheistic and generally organised religion was not part of my life. But we are not really atheists in the actual sense either. People around me practice a form of folk religion based on local legends, ancestor worship and some Taoist and Buddhist myth. You can say it is kind of a jumble. I don't think I've ever REALLY believed these things either, but there's always this fear in me that whispers "what if it's real?". What if there are really ghosts and they haunt you? What if the deities of the mountain will really be angry if you disrespect them? So I try to go along with my elders and relatives if they deem a ritual important enough to go through, but I do not actively seek out "things I should do for the deities/ancestors" either.

    So that's my "religious" background, sort of. What I know about other religions, I read from the books. One of my favourite subjects since a kid was European history, so there's when I know about Christianity. But the first time when I truly "met" religion face to face was after I came to Singapore to study. It's the first time that I met real Christians and Muslims, and also Taoists and Buddhists who were a lot more serious in their belief than my relatives in their folk religion. But to me all these still seemed like some silly things that I couldn't understand how people could REALLY believe.

    The one who really introduced me to religion in the end was a teacher I considered a mentor to me. He's my English teacher when I first arrived in Singapore and he's a wonderful teacher. Both kind and caring, as well as full of interesting stories to tell. I kept in touch with him and stay as friends after I've graduated from my school and went on to the next stage of my study. So along the journey I have learnt that he's a Christian who attended church regularly. I would say that that's when my "religious journey" began. I went through a stage where I would really, really want to be able to believe. And many people from my background (born in China, moved to a country where religions are practiced openly, etc) did find a religion to their liking (usually Christianity) and convert. So I thought "I would like to have that too"!

    So I've started to occasionally go to church with my mentor just to see what its like, and attended some of their bible study sessions. I find the experience very interesting, and they are from a rather liberal church so there's usually nothing much that I find very objectionable during their sermons. And I really like the community spirit they have. There was a period that I really really wanted to say that I've converted. At one point I was thinking maybe I should just go through with it first, even though I don't really believe, but maybe I can pretend to for a while and then the real thing will come?

    But in the end I never managed the final step. I don't know if it's because of my upbringing, I just can't seem to believe. It still seems silly to me, all these believes people proclaim and I still constantly wonder "do they really believe that kind of thing or were they like what I had plan to do and just pretending". It's a kind of prejudice/distorted view that I am afraid I won't be able to completely shake off. So I finally decided that even though I would like to believe, I just couldn't do it. And later I've started reading things from the atheists such as Richard Dawkins and have finally concluded that yes, I think I am an atheists, and until some glaring evidence otherwise can be presented to me, I will most likely stay as one.

    I have been lurking in various atheist/agnostic blogs/forums on and off ever since. Secularism development around the world had become a topic that I am interested in. And I stumbled upon this forum when I was searching for criticism of Islam after reading the news about the Taliban massacre a few days ago. I am very happy that I found this place, where the criticism of Islam is not centred on "oh it's THOSE people, they are just vile, what can you expect". And it revealled to me that there are indeed many atheists from Muslim backgrounds. I know some prominent atheists from Muslim backgrounds, but I have always taken it to be some sort of extreme rarity - never realizing it's a lot more common than that.

    Like I said, I think I still harboured some remnants of prejudice myself. There was a stage that I really despised "Muslim" as a collective group after 911. Funnily it never really bothered me that many people I get in contact with are Muslims too (I am in Singapore after all). Somehow it just seems like they are not "really Muslims" to me. Talk about mental gymnastics... I am discovering and thinking still, and I am sure you will all agree that it is a life-long journey. I am sure I will be learning a lot more from all of you and I am looking forward to it.

    PS: Sorry for the long rambling post! I guess it just feels great to tell a personal story,  Tongue
  • Greetings from the East
     Reply #1 - December 30, 2014, 05:10 AM

    Welcome to the forum Rhoeo, have a rabbit!  bunny

    A very interesting background you have indeed. Look forward to hearing more from you.  Smiley

    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Greetings from the East
     Reply #2 - December 30, 2014, 06:43 AM

    Thank you, asbie!  bunny

    I guess my background is indeed a bit different compare to most people here? so I am sure we can learn a lot from each other,  yes

    I wonder if there are any Chinese/Uyghur ex-Muslims here? Would love to meet with someone of this background. Apart from Secularism, Chinese politics is also something I have been watching and would love to hear something from an ex-Muslim perspective.
  • Greetings from the East
     Reply #3 - December 30, 2014, 08:47 AM

    Welcome. parrot

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Greetings from the East
     Reply #4 - December 30, 2014, 10:55 AM

    Welcome  parrot

    I have also realized that Christian Missionaries are focusing more and more on Asia. Even in Germany some Chinese students asked me if I want to talk about the Bible. I guess it's getting more popular to adept to Western culture and their religion.
  • Greetings from the East
     Reply #5 - December 30, 2014, 02:20 PM

    Thank you Quod Sum Eris and ElToro!

    Ah yes, I think people are seeing more and more Chinese interested in the Bible. However, proselytizing in China is actually not anything new. Of course, I think in the recent decades there is indeed a renewal in effort as China becomes more integrated into the world economy after a prolonged period of isolation.

    Christianity's role in China is probably quite complicated, and I am no expert. But as far as I know, a significant amount of the activities are actually still "underground". The state basically only allows churches that it has control over to operate with some sort of religious freedom, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-Self_Patriotic_Movement
  • Greetings from the East
     Reply #6 - December 30, 2014, 06:07 PM

    Welcome, Rhoeo Smiley
  • Greetings from the East
     Reply #7 - December 30, 2014, 09:45 PM

    Thank you Quod Sum Eris and ElToro!

    Ah yes, I think people are seeing more and more Chinese interested in the Bible. However, proselytizing in China is actually not anything new. Of course, I think in the recent decades there is indeed a renewal in effort as China becomes more integrated into the world economy after a prolonged period of isolation.

    Christianity's role in China is probably quite complicated, and I am no expert. But as far as I know, a significant amount of the activities are actually still "underground". The state basically only allows churches that it has control over to operate with some sort of religious freedom, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-Self_Patriotic_Movement


    I vaguely recall a British documentary about Christianity and the Chinese government that suggested the government is content to allow conversion to Lutheran Christianity in order to encourage the work force to keep working harder. The "protestant work ethic".
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant_work_ethic 
    There appear to be some references worth exploring. eg:
    http://blog.tifwe.org/the-protestant-work-ethic-alive-well-in-china/
  • Greetings from the East
     Reply #8 - December 30, 2014, 09:49 PM

    Welcome on board, an interesting viewpoint to have on here!  parrot bunny
  • Greetings from the East
     Reply #9 - December 31, 2014, 12:27 AM

    I also live in the East, having married a Japanese person whose religious jumble is similar to yours - Shinto Buddhist agnostic. I rather like its vagueness. Abrahamic religions will never allow themselves to be vague, even when their teachings are totally unclear.
  • Greetings from the East
     Reply #10 - December 31, 2014, 03:24 AM

    Thank you everyone!  thnkyu

    I vaguely recall a British documentary about Christianity and the Chinese government that suggested the government is content to allow conversion to Lutheran Christianity in order to encourage the work force to keep working harder. The "protestant work ethic".
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant_work_ethic 
    There appear to be some references worth exploring. eg:
    http://blog.tifwe.org/the-protestant-work-ethic-alive-well-in-china/


    Hi Rob, you brought up an interesting topic, but I am not so sure about the conclusion. There are too many points that I find dubious. For one, "correlation does not mean causation". Christianity spreading and economy booming happening at the same time doesn't mean Christianity is to take credit for the economy boom.

    There are quite a few other claims that I'd also take issue with, not least the claim that China is "supplanting" the west. That in itself is a questionable claim to me.  Tongue

    Of course, I am no expert in either religion or Chinese study, but on first glance I am really not impressed with the arguments presented in that blog post.

    Quote
    I also live in the East, having married a Japanese person whose religious jumble is similar to yours - Shinto Buddhist agnostic. I rather like its vagueness. Abrahamic religions will never allow themselves to be vague, even when their teachings are totally unclear.


    Hi David, I think the vagueness probably does have its advantageous, at least it'd be less judgmental? But again, I am no expert in terms of religion,  so can't really say the pros and cons of different types  Grin

    And I love Japan, one of my target for the next few years will be to visit Japan at least once! I hope I can follow through with the plan,  dance
  • Greetings from the East
     Reply #11 - December 31, 2014, 07:18 AM

    Hey Rhoeo! Good to have you here  Afro

    "I moreover believe that any religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, cannot be a true system."
    -Thomas Paine
  • Greetings from the East
     Reply #12 - December 31, 2014, 07:47 PM

    Thank you everyone!  thnkyu

    Hi Rob, you brought up an interesting topic, but I am not so sure about the conclusion. There are too many points that I find dubious. For one, "correlation does not mean causation". Christianity spreading and economy booming happening at the same time doesn't mean Christianity is to take credit for the economy boom.

    There are quite a few other claims that I'd also take issue with, not least the claim that China is "supplanting" the west. That in itself is a questionable claim to me.  Tongue

    Of course, I am no expert in either religion or Chinese study, but on first glance I am really not impressed with the arguments presented in that blog post.

    Hi David, I think the vagueness probably does have its advantageous, at least it'd be less judgmental? But again, I am no expert in terms of religion,  so can't really say the pros and cons of different types  Grin

    And I love Japan, one of my target for the next few years will be to visit Japan at least once! I hope I can follow through with the plan,  dance


    Not my arguments. I've never been much of a believer in the protestant work ethic. Though it has often been espoused as a reason for the industrial revolution beginning and progressing in the UK so I don't suppose it should be dismissed too lightly.

    I thought it was fun to consider whether the Chinese government's limited tolerance of Christianity is down to the perception that the protestant work ethic makes people better economic units. It doesn't have to be actually true, though they might be conducting some kind of experiment to see if ther's anything in it.
  • Greetings from the East
     Reply #13 - December 31, 2014, 09:43 PM

    Thank you justperusing!

    To Rob:

    Hmm, it could very well be true with regard to the UK (or not, but to me it is certainly not as outlandish a claim wrt the UK). However, the scale of Christianity in China just doesn't seem to warrant the same level of consideration, in my opinion.
  • Greetings from the East
     Reply #14 - January 01, 2015, 12:49 AM

    I did a report on where Christianity is growing in the modern world. It is quickly declining in Europe, holding somewhat steady in the US, and exploding in many areas of Africa. I think about 8% of Chinese profess some form of Christianity, but that number is growing. China is a hotbed for missionaries today.

    "I moreover believe that any religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, cannot be a true system."
    -Thomas Paine
  • Greetings from the East
     Reply #15 - January 02, 2015, 03:54 PM

    It is indeed exploding, especially along the eastern coast, if I remember correctly. Unfortunately I have never really had any contact with any Christians in China. I know very little about them apart from whatever the press reports.
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