On why I chose to identify as muslim for so long

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- gal_from_usa
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On why I chose to identify as muslim for so long
Reply #30 - December 21, 2014, 07:04 PM

Quote from: zeca on December 21, 2014, 05:30 PM
Ian David Morris took a look at this particular claim on his blog:
http://www.iandavidmorris.com/a_mosque_a_muslimah_and_a_little_white_lie/

This was mentioned on here a while ago but I think it was before you joined the forum. I expect most of the other claims on your list would look just as problematic if analysed closely.

I think part of the problem is the confused state of the history of Islam as an academic discipline, with scholars traditionally putting far too much trust in the Islamic sources. This is changing but often there isn't the consensus about many of the basic facts that you'd expect in most other areas of history, leaving things open to the claims of religious apologists.

Abu Ali made point a few posts ago that Muslim historians are pushing an agenda, and anti-Islam historians are also pushing an agenda. That was something I hadn't really realized before; I could see that anti-Muslim groups were pushing an agenda and presenting a very biased and often inaccurate view of history, but I hadn't been able to see that about the Muslim ones. But even in looking over at what I knew from the Muslim ones again, I was appalled.

Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for I have a sonic screwdriver, a tricorder, and a Type 2 phaser.
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On why I chose to identify as muslim for so long
Reply #31 - December 21, 2014, 07:24 PM

Quote from: galfromusa on December 21, 2014, 07:04 PM
anti-Islam historians

Who are these people? Proper academic historians or people who selectively use history to further their beef with Islam?

As Bogart says, it's crucial to make a distinction between the two. Of course historians have their agendas (Marxist historians, anyone?), but proper academic rigour and peer review keep them reined in.
- gal_from_usa
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Reply #32 - December 21, 2014, 07:31 PM

David, I mean the people whose writings you find on all those millions of websites that pop up no matter what your search terms are, who mostly ramble incoherently and make claims that are absurd, even at face value.

Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for I have a sonic screwdriver, a tricorder, and a Type 2 phaser.
- cosmicdancer
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Reply #33 - December 21, 2014, 07:33 PM

Quote from: David on December 21, 2014, 07:24 PM
Who are these people? Proper academic historians or people who selectively use history to further their beef with Islam?

I wasn't referring to proper historians - but to bigots like Spencer, Geller, Wilders and such like.

In fact I think genuine historians/Orientalists have been generally quite sympathetic to Islam in the past - in the sense that they mostly accepted the Muslim version of Islamic history.
- billy
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Reply #34 - December 21, 2014, 07:40 PM

this essay Zeca posted explains it well. The claims that have been made about aspects of Islamic history are so skewed, exaggerated and often outrageous that it is high time that a corrective analysis was made

http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=27246.msg798569#msg798569

Unfortunately that process is sometimes seen as 'anti-Islam' when really all it is doing is applying the same critical historical methods to Islam that is applied to every other aspect of history

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

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- musivore
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Reply #35 - December 21, 2014, 08:06 PM

Quote from: josephus on December 20, 2014, 09:30 PM
Sorry, I can come off a bit harsh at times. My apologies.

I can understand how you wrote that. Bogart and I kind of slipped into posting something similar. And I apologised early, whilst Bogart is just way too cool for apologies, regrets or reprimand.

Quote from: lua on December 20, 2014, 02:16 PM
I wish you had been around when I was still a Muslim to give me a good talking to. It's probably the biggest regret of my time then. I couldn't run fast enough from any implication that my support had consequences, or that what was fun and peaceful for me and that I defended so well came at a high price for others who adopted a stronger view or had one thrust upon them.

I swore it was possible to have the best of both worlds, and while I still think it might be, that is such a distant and uncertain thing, nowhere near close to being accomplished right now, and so the Earth doesn't need my help in defending Islam, but I abandoned my defense of the people to focus on it nevertheless. I'd like to think that speaking to you or some of the other people on this forum would have snapped me to my senses earlier...though, knowing how deeply in denial I was, perhaps not.

Galfromusa, I also very much like your conclusion. It's what I hoped for, and I suppose still hope for. Keeping the good and reforming the bad. It just took me a long time to realize it was easier to be an advocate of what I really cared about when I left Islam behind.

Thank you lua. I have a feeling that with your brain, clarity and pervasiveness, that you would have easily convinced some of us that we were wrong had we met you when you were Muslim. I'm happy we didn't meet back then, because you'd have seriously fucked with my mind... Btw, I've been away for a short while, but I have to admit that I think I may have missed you somewhat?

Galfromexico: Kudos to you. I've never seen anyone look so deep internally, and re-evaluate core beliefs so quickly, and then subsequently reach a new acceptance with such humble grace and good sport. Most people, including myself, are too egotistical to do anything anywhere near like that.

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- lua
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On why I chose to identify as muslim for so long
Reply #36 - December 21, 2014, 08:13 PM

Oh, no, I may have fooled some lesser minds, but I'd have been in way over my head if I tried it at CEMB. Did I ever tell you that I found this site well before I apostatized? It was no accident that I steered clear of picking fights here. But you are too sweet, as always.

You have been away! And I've definitely missed you. Hope life's been treating you well.
- gal_from_usa
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Reply #37 - December 21, 2014, 08:29 PM

Quote from: musivore on December 21, 2014, 08:06 PM

Galfromexico: Kudos to you. I've never seen anyone look so deep internally, and re-evaluate core beliefs so quickly, and then subsequently reach a new acceptance with such humble grace and good sport. Most people, including myself, are too egotistical to do anything anywhere near like that.

*looks at username* *looks at what you typed* *looks at username* not that I don't like Mexico...seemed like a pretty nice place, the two times I went there, except for the guy in the creepy van who drove around me and the other girls in my group a few times and told us he was going to kidnap us. Oh and the hotel....but that was more the group organizer's fault, kinda a "lost in translation" thing. The group organizer called a hotel in the city we were going to be staying in and said there were several girls he was taking to Mexico, and was the hotel good [meaning safe] for girls, and the hotel manager understood it as "I have some prostitutes, is this place a good place to rent them out." So the hotel manager directed some guys to the rooms, which confused and scared us. Also there were lizards in the rooms and the toilets and showers flooded. But other than that, my trips to Mexico were fine, about what you'd expect in a third world country whose main legal industries are tourism and manufacturing cheap shit for Americans.

Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for I have a sonic screwdriver, a tricorder, and a Type 2 phaser.
- zeca
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On why I chose to identify as muslim for so long
Reply #38 - December 21, 2014, 09:30 PM

Quote from: David on December 21, 2014, 07:24 PM
Who are these people? Proper academic historians or people who selectively use history to further their beef with Islam?
As Bogart says, it's crucial to make a distinction between the two. Of course historians have their agendas (Marxist historians, anyone?), but proper academic rigour and peer review keep them reined in.

Quote from: galfromusa on December 21, 2014, 07:31 PM
David, I mean the people whose writings you find on all those millions of websites that pop up no matter what your search terms are, who mostly ramble incoherently and make claims that are absurd, even at face value.

Quote from: Abu Ali on December 21, 2014, 07:33 PM
I wasn't referring to proper historians - but to bigots like Spencer, Geller, Wilders and such like.
In fact I think genuine historians/Orientalists have been generally quite sympathetic to Islam in the past - in the sense that they mostly accepted the Muslim version of Islamic history.

A blog post from Ian David Morris that illustrates the difference between real historians and the likes of Spencer:
http://www.iandavidmorris.com/misspelling-muhammad-why-robert-spencer-is-wrong-about-thomas-presbyter/

Which side are you on?
- musivore
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On why I chose to identify as muslim for so long
Reply #39 - December 21, 2014, 09:32 PM

Quote from: galfromusa on December 21, 2014, 08:29 PM
*looks at username* *looks at what you typed* *looks at username* not that I don't like Mexico...seemed like a pretty nice place, the two times I went there, except for the guy in the creepy van who drove around me and the other girls in my group a few times and told us he was going to kidnap us. Oh and the hotel....but that was more the group organizer's fault, kinda a "lost in translation" thing. The group organizer called a hotel in the city we were going to be staying in and said there were several girls he was taking to Mexico, and was the hotel good [meaning safe] for girls, and the hotel manager understood it as "I have some prostitutes, is this place a good place to rent them out." So the hotel manager directed some guys to the rooms, which confused and scared us. Also there were lizards in the rooms and the toilets and showers flooded. But other than that, my trips to Mexico were fine, about what you'd expect in a third world country whose main legal industries are tourism and manufacturing cheap shit for Americans.

Lmao @ all of that

Hi
- cosmicdancer
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On why I chose to identify as muslim for so long
Reply #40 - December 21, 2014, 09:51 PM

Quote from: zeca on December 21, 2014, 09:30 PM
A blog post from Ian David Morris that illustrates the difference between real historians and the likes of Spencer:
http://www.iandavidmorris.com/misspelling-muhammad-why-robert-spencer-is-wrong-about-thomas-presbyter/

Another excellent article - boy, you are a goldmine, Zeca

I love his conclusion:

"For students and enthusiasts of History, there are a few lessons to be gleaned from this episode. Read scholarly literature very carefully. Always follow the footnotes: if one scholar’s argument looks a bit thin, perhaps she cites someone else who gives a full explanation. Don’t neglect numismatics. Study languages, ideally the languages of your sources, and think about what happens when languages interact. Talk to historians: ask them why they read sources as they do. Be critical, be sceptical, but don’t be obtuse. And above all, please ignore Robert Spencer."
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Reply #41 - December 22, 2014, 10:27 AM

Quote from: galfromusa on December 21, 2014, 07:04 PM
Abu Ali made point a few posts ago that Muslim historians are pushing an agenda, and anti-Islam historians are also pushing an agenda. That was something I hadn't really realized before; I could see that anti-Muslim groups were pushing an agenda and presenting a very biased and often inaccurate view of history, but I hadn't been able to see that about the Muslim ones. But even in looking over at what I knew from the Muslim ones again, I was appalled.

It is not just Islam, pro or con. It just how many people view history.

Quote
I can understand how you wrote that. Bogart and I kind of slipped into posting something similar. And I apologised early, whilst Bogart is just way too cool for apologies, regrets or reprimand.

I do not see a reason for doing so. I gave my views if in a blunt way. I have done so before and will do again. Honestly speaking my comments were far more tame than normal. I am not the type of person to who places a cushion for a soft landing before I proceed to push one's views off a proverbial ledge. I rarely start of with "Sorry but you are wrong" nor apologies for have opposing views. Besides it seems to have had a positive effect.

If anyone owns anyone an apology it is the historians that have let their bias colour their work for centuries and still do so today.
- gal_from_usa
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On why I chose to identify as muslim for so long
Reply #42 - January 13, 2015, 07:12 AM

Hello lovies, I decided to revive an old, abandoned, anonymous twitter account I own, didn't want to start a new thread on it (or a new twitter account). It's @bluefingerbox (I was having a phase....it's a long story).

Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for I have a sonic screwdriver, a tricorder, and a Type 2 phaser.
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On why I chose to identify as muslim for so long
Reply #43 - January 13, 2015, 10:14 AM

Quote
Likewise your views of the West's impact is just the opposite by citing negatives only. You blast colonialism of the West but what about colonialism of Muslims?

While I don't know much about Islamic history, this quote strikes a nerve in me because it feels like a deja vu to me. It is almost like I am seeing a discussion of Chinese history again.

Honestly, I am quite tired of some people who can't do anything but trot out "it's colonialism" whenever problems faced by former colonial regions are discussed. The same piece of land could have been touched by so many different groups of people and each group could have left their own legacies; but to some, once the Europeans came all other legacies disappeared. And the other groups of people no longer needs to be responsible for anything while every ill can be blame on European colonialism.

Somehow Europeans must be uniquely responsible for everything that happened on all the lands that they have ever touched. But everyone else need not.

I dare say I have never seen any attitude that is more Euro-centric than this.
- cosmicdancer
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Reply #44 - January 13, 2015, 11:02 AM

Quote from: galfromusa on January 13, 2015, 07:12 AM
Hello lovies, I decided to revive an old, abandoned, anonymous twitter account I own, didn't want to start a new thread on it (or a new twitter account). It's @bluefingerbox (I was having a phase....it's a long story).

Followed
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On why I chose to identify as muslim for so long
Reply #45 - January 13, 2015, 02:27 PM

Quote from: galfromusa on January 13, 2015, 07:12 AM
Hello lovies, I decided to revive an old, abandoned, anonymous twitter account I own, didn't want to start a new thread on it (or a new twitter account). It's @bluefingerbox (I was having a phase....it's a long story).

Just followed you.
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