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Theme Changer

 Topic: On why I chose to identify as muslim for so long

 (Read 8045 times)
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  • On why I chose to identify as muslim for so long
     OP - December 19, 2014, 07:25 AM

    So, it's half past midnight and I'm tired, but I noticed that this blog post was almost all done and I only had a few more points I wanted to add, so I finished it off and wanted to share it here. Like I said, it's half past midnight, so there may be some grammatical errors. If you see any let me know and I'll fix them tomorrow when I wake up.

    http://pathtokolinahr.blogspot.com/2014/12/culturally-religious.html

    Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for I have a sonic screwdriver, a tricorder, and a Type 2 phaser.
  • On why I chose to identify as muslim for so long
     Reply #1 - December 19, 2014, 04:46 PM

    Try again:

    It’s not clear from your writing if you’ve moved on completely from the views you used to hold as a cultural Muslim? I can still sense sentimentality in you, and you seem to be in danger of still falling into the trap of harking back to the Muslim golden age with rose-tinted glasses. IMO there have been many, many great civilisations in the past, and some of these were indeed quite progressive for their respective eras. I particularly like the Hellenistic ones personally. But this doesn't mean that I would want to ever return to living the way they lived. There were many things that they did well of course, but overall, almost on every scale of prosperity, technology, personal freedom, equality, peace, stability, innovation, knowledge, learning and health we are doing better now in general than we have ever done. Therefore, in my opinion, it is better to learn what we can from these great civilisations, but to continue to look forwards and make ours a better one, as opposed to constantly wanting to recreate any supposed golden age.

    The second worry for me in the mindset you are describing (that you used to have?), is that it is too quick to blame all of the Muslim world's current problems on the West. Whilst some of that may be true, in reality the Muslim world seems autistically obsessed with pointing the finger at others for it's problems, instead of focusing on reform, modernisation, secularisation, and promoting laws that will encourage greater prosperity, freedom and equality to all of it's people.

    The thing about mindsets where there is a constant wish to return to a Muslim golden age, coupled with one that is intent on explaining it's shortcomings on the actions of others, is that it encourages an insular us-versus-them existence. Add to this, as you mentioned, the fact that Islam instills it's followers to personally and acutely feel the pain from any perceived wrongdoings committed to any part of it's Ummah, then you have potential flash points beginning to develop. This mindset therefore not only stifles progress IMO, but could also lead to dangerous extremes in some particularly disturbed and radicalised minds.

    I can understand how and why you held those views when you were a Muslim Galframusa. But I hope you have less sympathy for that point of view now, than some of your blog suggests you do?





    Hi
  • On why I chose to identify as muslim for so long
     Reply #2 - December 19, 2014, 06:00 PM

    Hmm. I hadn't really had a think about how I feel now. I will go do that.

    Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for I have a sonic screwdriver, a tricorder, and a Type 2 phaser.
  • On why I chose to identify as muslim for so long
     Reply #3 - December 19, 2014, 10:18 PM

    So, it's half past midnight and I'm tired, but I noticed that this blog post was almost all done and I only had a few more points I wanted to add, so I finished it off and wanted to share it here. Like I said, it's half past midnight, so there may be some grammatical errors. If you see any let me know and I'll fix them tomorrow when I wake up.

    http://pathtokolinahr.blogspot.com/2014/12/culturally-religious.html


    I thought it was excellent and I enjoyed reading it - thanks  Afro
  • On why I chose to identify as muslim for so long
     Reply #4 - December 19, 2014, 10:31 PM

    Hmm. I hadn't really had a think about how I feel now. I wcgo do that.


    I'm sorry, I was a little harsh. I don't know you and don't know why I chose you for a rant that has been building up inside me.

    I guess I'm trying to come to terms with what happened in Peshawar, and trying to understand just how some parts of the Muslim world have ended up in the mess they are in. I am particularly affected I think because Pakistan is my parent's country, and it should have been mine had I ever allowed myself to embrace it. So, those children were my children, and their families' pain almost feels like my own. I can't help but think of my five year old, who, but for the grace of God, could easily have been amongst those poor children.

    Anyways, there is an internal struggle within me to deal with what happened in Peshawar. This should have remained internal. Instead, it has become distorted and garbled and written up in this thread. And you did not ask for that, nor deserve that.

    Hi
  • On why I chose to identify as muslim for so long
     Reply #5 - December 20, 2014, 12:44 AM

    West blaming is a very narrow perception of events. It is only looking at one side of the coin and inferring issues within Islam and Muslim nations are due to the West. Rather it is the inability of hardliners to accept any reform outside their views and control. It is like a communist blaming the west for the fall of the USSR while ignoring the systems of the nation were flawed. Yet ideological standing the system could not be in error as it was the "perfect" system just like the ideology that Islam is the "perfect" system. Look at your homosexuality was decriminalized comment. It was done almost 1300 years after Islam started and after European nations were doing it. It was also done via secular law not Islamic law. The reformers required secular law as Islamic system were either unable or unwilling to do so. When one circumvents the systems you praise you can not claim it as the accomplishment of that which you praise.  I see far too much revisionist history, generalization and poor research in your blog to take your reasons based on history even seriously.

    I am harsh with my comments but this is due to the fact history is a hobby and career for me. I take it seriously especially when it is presented in a religious or ethnocentric view as your information was. A the points seemed far too selective to me so reek of centrism
  • On why I chose to identify as muslim for so long
     Reply #6 - December 20, 2014, 01:53 PM

    Quote
    So what I meant to do, in presenting to the world as a cultural Muslim, was to pay homage to the Muslims of old, who shared values and causes that I could identify with. The culture that I wished to be a part of was that of a more historical, progressive version of Islam. I wanted to express my support for things like publicly-funded hospitals, schools and universities, orphanages, multi-cultural trade, studies of sciences and mathematics. I wanted to be a voice for equal rights for everyone, regardless of gender, sexual orientation, or skin color. Those are the values I wanted to express; and I can express them equally well with or without religion. I do not need a religion to be moral.


    good conclusion  Afro

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • On why I chose to identify as muslim for so long
     Reply #7 - December 20, 2014, 02:16 PM

    I'm sorry, I was a little harsh. I don't know you and don't know why I chose you for a rant that has been building up inside me.

    I guess I'm trying to come to terms with what happened in Peshawar, and trying to understand just how some parts of the Muslim world have ended up in the mess they are in. I am particularly affected I think because Pakistan is my parent's country, and it should have been mine had I ever allowed myself to embrace it. So, those children were my children, and their families' pain almost feels like my own. I can't help but think of my five year old, who, but for the grace of God, could easily have been amongst those poor children.

    Anyways, there is an internal struggle within me to deal with what happened in Peshawar. This should have remained internal. Instead, it has become distorted and garbled and written up in this thread. And you did not ask for that, nor deserve that.


     far away hug I wish you had been around when I was still a Muslim to give me a good talking to. It's probably the biggest regret of my time then. I couldn't run fast enough from any implication that my support had consequences, or that what was fun and peaceful for me and that I defended so well came at a high price for others who adopted a stronger view or had one thrust upon them.

    I swore it was possible to have the best of both worlds, and while I still think it might be, that is such a distant and uncertain thing, nowhere near close to being accomplished right now, and so the Earth doesn't need my help in defending Islam, but I abandoned my defense of the people to focus on it nevertheless. I'd like to think that speaking to you or some of the other people on this forum would have snapped me to my senses earlier...though, knowing how deeply in denial I was, perhaps not.

    Galfromusa, I also very much like your conclusion. It's what I hoped for, and I suppose still hope for. Keeping the good and reforming the bad. It just took me a long time to realize it was easier to be an advocate of what I really cared about when I left Islam behind.
  • On why I chose to identify as muslim for so long
     Reply #8 - December 20, 2014, 06:57 PM

    So, I had a think. It's not a very complete think, but it raised some questions that I need to answer before I can have a complete think. I thought I'd bring back the questions for analysis.

    To me, it seems like there are a few issues at play here:
    1) Historical facts
    2) Perceptions of those facts
    3) Feelings about those perceptions

    So, here are the historical facts, devoid of emotion, as I have had them presented to me, and I guess I'd like to see how they compare with what happened according people who have had a more scholarly history background:

    • Mohammad said in his last sermon that people should not be judged by their skin color.
    • Umar made a bunch of rules regarding the character of a government official, most of which were pretty reasonable; and he said that if something isn't harming anyone (and is not otherwise forbidden), it's legal.
    • By Uthman's time, there was a simply huge amount of social welfare policies, including public schools, homeless shelters (which were also available to be used as free hotels), hospitals (at least, as good as was available at the time), international trade (with Muslim-army guarded trade routes) that brought the knowledge and acceptance of other cultures, a stipend for all children (and investment trusts for the children in state-run orphanages), studies of math and science, and history and literature.
    • There was also an incredible amount of rights for women. The Muslim lands were one of the few places on earth that women could own property, and within a few centuries women owned a great deal of the wealth; they were guaranteed equal pay for equal work; and were entitled to custody, child support, and alimony in the event of a divorce. Women were also given access to an equal amount of education as men, and the first university in the world was founded by a Muslim woman.
    • Towards the start of the Muslim empire, Christianity and Judaism were accepted non-Muslim religions, but within a few centuries, Zoroastrianism, Hinduism, "doubters" (atheists or agnostics), and other minority religious views were also common.
    • Gay individuals existed in Muslim literature for many centuries. In 1858, homosexuality was decriminalized in the Ottoman Empire. This was a result mainly of growing consensus that homosexuality was not a choice, and could not be changed at will. (http://www.banap.net/spip.php?article86)
    • The British colonized many formerly Muslim countries. They introduced a wide variety of laws, including "anti-buggery" laws, and changed the culture to be more conservative to reflect British Victorian era values.
    • Americans came along a bit later, with their post-WW2 money and military expertise, and instituted more changes, based on American government (not necessarily American populace) values of the Cold War era.

    As for perceptions:

    I'm a democratic socialist. I support what is often derisively referred to as a "welfare state," because I believe it is the responsibility of society to care for the disadvantaged and those in need. So if it is true that the early Muslim world was a welfare state, I do support that kind of thing, not because of religious values but because of my secular based social values. I also support social equality regardless of gender and sexual identity, skin color, religious identity, etc. So if those things existed in Muslim countries in by-gone eras, I support that too.

    With regards to West-blaming, I only wish to do that insofar as it is historically accurate. Many of the modern problems are not the direct result of the west, but are a result of general policy changes that were initially supported by the west. For example, Hosni Mubarak was initially supported by America, and used the fact that he had had good relationships with several American presidents to convince the people that he was supported by America and could therefore not be overthrown. This happened in several other Arab Spring countries as well. Saddam Hussein also initially had a good relationship with America, as did Osama bin Laden (who fought with American trained people against "evil Communist Atheism").

    Similarly, the Saud family was initially supported by Great Britain, and used their new power to push Wahhabi Islam, which is undoubtedly resulting in very violent and repressive movements. But it has grown out of hand, and now even the Saudis can't control it, which is causing them great concern, as they are now in danger from a monster of their own creation.

    But this is all based on the assumption that the facts I listed in the section above are true. If those are in dispute and you can provide me with more data to show they are not true, then I will rethink these perceptions.

    As for feelings about those perceptions, I don't know how I feel. I'll do some more thinking about that.

    Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for I have a sonic screwdriver, a tricorder, and a Type 2 phaser.
  • On why I chose to identify as muslim for so long
     Reply #9 - December 20, 2014, 07:08 PM

    I think you have a very romanticised view of Islamic history to be honest!

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • On why I chose to identify as muslim for so long
     Reply #10 - December 20, 2014, 07:30 PM

    Yep, I have to agree with Billy. I'm afraid the "historical facts' you list above are through rose-tinted spectacles. Just to take two examples: "incredible amount of rights for women" and; "Gay individuals existed in Muslim literature for many centuries." are off the mark. Incredible amounts of right? Compared to what? Arabia at the time? Other parts of the world at the time? Compared to what they are now? and I have no doubt Gay individuals existed - but if they were public about it they - in most cases - faced the death penalty.
  • On why I chose to identify as muslim for so long
     Reply #11 - December 20, 2014, 07:38 PM

    And as for:

    "By Uthman's time there was a simply huge amount of social welfare policies... public schools, homeless shelters (which were also available to be used as free hotels), hospitals (at least, as good as was available at the time), international trade (with Muslim-army guarded trade routes) that brought the knowledge and acceptance of other cultures, a stipend for all children (and investment trusts for the children in state-run orphanages), studies of math and science, and history and literature."

    This simply isn't true. It is true that much later when the Islamic empire spread & established itself in the lands were a educated urban culture had already existed - 'some' (not 'huge amounts') of these things were available - and it depends on what you define as social & welfare policies. I don't think chopping hands of thieves and making them a burden to society is a good social welfare policy.
  • On why I chose to identify as muslim for so long
     Reply #12 - December 20, 2014, 07:41 PM

    I think you have a very romanticised view of Islamic history to be honest!


    But is the problem in my knowledge of the facts, or of my perceptions of the facts? So are the facts that I listed in the bullet points wrong? Because if the facts, as they have been presented to me, are not actually true, I definitely want to rethink my perceptions of the facts. My values as a democratic socialist are more important to me than my perceptions of history. I don't want to look at history through rose-tinted glasses; but if the facts are actually true and most other people are not aware of them, then I think that's a tragedy.

    Yep, I have to agree with Billy. I'm afraid the "historical facts' you list above are through rose-tinted spectacles. Just to take two examples: "incredible amount of rights for women" and; "Gay individuals existed in Muslim literature for many centuries." are off the mark. Incredible amounts of right? Compared to what? Arabia at the time? Other parts of the world at the time? Compared to what they are now? and I have no doubt Gay individuals existed - but if they were public about it they - in most cases - faced the death penalty.


    In terms of the rights of women, if they actually had all the rights I listed, then that is something that didn't exist in other parts of the world until modern times. In terms of gays in Muslim literature:

    Quote
    According to the Encyclopedia of Islam and the Muslim World

    Whatever the legal strictures on sexual activity, the positive expression of male homeoerotic sentiment in literature was accepted, and assiduously cultivated, from the late eighth century until modern times. First in Arabic, but later also in Persian, Turkish and Urdu, love poetry by men about boys more than competed with that about women, it overwhelmed it. Anecdotal literature reinforces this impression of general societal acceptance of the public celebration of male-male love (which hostile Western caricatures of Islamic societies in medieval and early modern times simply exaggerate).

     
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_in_Islam#In_literature

    So again, if this is true, then I think the fact that it's gone and the fact that so many people don't even know it existed is a tragedy. But if it's not true, and this progressive culture that I hear so much about never actually existed, then I would be more than happy to throw out all the praise for it. My values are not dependent on this "near paradise" ever having existed. On the contrary, my praise for a near paradise is based on my values.

    Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for I have a sonic screwdriver, a tricorder, and a Type 2 phaser.
  • On why I chose to identify as muslim for so long
     Reply #13 - December 20, 2014, 07:54 PM

    I think it's very difficult to ascertain real facts from where we stand. Most Muslim writers see Islamic history through their faith. While some of the haters and bigots go to the other extreme and see nothing but cruelty and barbarism.

    Both perceptions are off the mark.

    I personally believe Islam did bring some improvements for its time and environment. But it also brought some things that were either a step back or did not change matters.

    The problem is Islamic History is not viewed like most other episodes of history - since as far as it represents the religion - it must therefore be better than all other places and times.

    If we could judge it as we do other periods of history we could be kinder.

    But when it claims to be the model for us all in all times and all places - then one can't help but judge it by that standard.

    In which case it fares rather badly.
  • On why I chose to identify as muslim for so long
     Reply #14 - December 20, 2014, 08:10 PM

    My values as a democratic socialist are more important to me than my perceptions of history


    I think you've been swayed by the dawah-ganda Muslims use to retrospectively claim that Islam is responsible for, or laid claim for embodying, all the good values you hold today. Its a form of Islamic exceptionalism based on historical bias, half truth and untruths. Its a kind of historical utopianism that has a mirror in more reactionary impulses amongst Salafis to paint the Islamic past as one of glory and perfection.

    Your principles of democratic socialism are because of the struggles through history to embody democracy, free conscience, secularism, enlightenment values. Not because of Islam, or any other religion.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • On why I chose to identify as muslim for so long
     Reply #15 - December 20, 2014, 08:11 PM

    I think it's very difficult to ascertain real facts from where we stand. Most Muslim writers see Islamic history through their faith. While some of the haters and bigots go to the other extreme and see nothing but cruelty and barbarism.

    Both perceptions are off the mark.

    ...

    But when it claims to be the model for us all in all times and all places - then one can't help but judge it by that standard.

    In which case it fares rather badly.


    Hmm, this is a very, very good point. Now I realize what is wrong with the original point of view, it is lacking a sense of balance. I must add some balance, in the form of criticism for things I don't agree with, like slavery. (Polygamy I'm kind of indifferent on; I think it should be classed with homosexuality as "things that happen between consenting adults and don't impact me are fine".) I will go compile a list of things I don't agree with to add balance and perspective to it.

    Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for I have a sonic screwdriver, a tricorder, and a Type 2 phaser.
  • On why I chose to identify as muslim for so long
     Reply #16 - December 20, 2014, 08:20 PM

    Historical facts? What you're citing as history is a Disney fantasy that betrays a deep and utterly impenetrable ignorance of the world from late antiquity onwards. It's apologetic guff. Most of what's written there is either plain false or highly tendentious, and is predicated on the sly understanding that you have neither the basic education nor the depth of reading necessary to see it for what it is.

    For starters the so-called last sermon is a fake - we know this is the case because it paraphrases/rewrites, at key points, Paul's letter to the Galatians. But don't let the fact that you can't be bothered to do the reading get in the way of a comforting illusion.

    The Islamic world was no more a welfare a state than was Rome or Byzantium ( both cities had corn doles for the population - did that make them welfare states too? ) - orphanages, hospitals, educational systems all existed prior to the advent of Islam in the regions that the Arabs conquered - they simply inherited existing institutions. What you're laughably describing as a welfare state was in fact the system of registrations that was used to dole out the booty of conquest to the warrior class and their dependants. When the going was good during the expansionary era there was plenty of money to disburse ( we'll forget about the people from whom it was stolen or extorted from as protection money, they weren't muslims so their welfare wasn't a primary concern ). There's nothing remarkable about this - it was the standard modus operandi in the ancient, classical and medieval worlds.

    The earliest universities long predate the advent of Islam, and first woman to endow a university was probably the empress Julia Domna in the 3rd century ce. Don't make the mistake of equating the endowment of a mosque, that eventually became a teaching centre, with the endowment of an institution specifically designed as a centre of higher learning. Women were so well educated in the Islamic world that there is virtually no surviving literature produced by them; in spite of their lack of education and their chronic under-representation in comparison to their male contemporaries, there are numerous European women writers of the same era who individually have corpuses that are larger than the surviving output of the entirety of muslim womanhood for about a thousand years - the first muslim woman writer who has a substantial survival was Mahfi - the sister of Aurangzeb, who was quite possibly an apostate.

  • On why I chose to identify as muslim for so long
     Reply #17 - December 20, 2014, 08:38 PM

    @josephus, I don't have a history degree or any significant background in history. I've done a much greater deal of study in theology (my parents did not send me to a school, but rather "homeschooled" i.e. attempted to indoctrinate me into their cult-like beliefs) and social work (with a minor in sociology). I have taken two ACTUAL history courses, one on 1500-2010 CE Asia-Pacific international relations, and one on pre-Columbian Native American religions and cultures. My knowledge of Muslim history comes from two main sources: the writings of Jews who lived under Muslim rulers (like the Rambam), and Muslims. So, yes, I would not be surprised if what has been presented to me as facts was largely inaccurate. That's why I am asking what parts of it are true, and which parts are not. No need to be vitriolic.

    Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for I have a sonic screwdriver, a tricorder, and a Type 2 phaser.
  • On why I chose to identify as muslim for so long
     Reply #18 - December 20, 2014, 08:38 PM

    She had reasons for her opinions, she did some research, and yes, we can disagree and explain why we doubt her sources or why this is a dangerous point of view, but surely we can be a bit kinder about it, right, josephus?

    Yes, she didn't do a ton of research, no, perhaps she didn't study this stuff at a university level, but we don't have to be so harsh about that. There are many who come to the same conclusions she has. She has expressed willingness to reconsider her perspective if we can demonstrate some error with her current one, and that's something we don't get a lot of around here. There's no need to talk like this.
  • On why I chose to identify as muslim for so long
     Reply #19 - December 20, 2014, 08:39 PM

    Grin Oh, beat me to it, gal.
  • On why I chose to identify as muslim for so long
     Reply #20 - December 20, 2014, 08:47 PM

    @josephus, No need to be vitriolic.


    This^
  • On why I chose to identify as muslim for so long
     Reply #21 - December 20, 2014, 09:30 PM

    Sorry, I can come off a bit harsh at times. My apologies.
  • On why I chose to identify as muslim for so long
     Reply #22 - December 20, 2014, 11:54 PM

    Hmm, this is a very, very good point. Now I realize what is wrong with the original point of view, it is lacking a sense of balance. I must add some balance, in the form of criticism for things I don't agree with, like slavery. (Polygamy I'm kind of indifferent on; I think it should be classed with homosexuality as "things that happen between consenting adults and don't impact me are fine".) I will go compile a list of things I don't agree with to add balance and perspective to it.


    I want to point out that most wives do not give consent for another wife to be added to the mix. Often, the ones that do, do it because they haven't a choice. Remember that Shariah gives the children to the father. Sometimes not right away, but consistently that is how it is done eventually.

    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • On why I chose to identify as muslim for so long
     Reply #23 - December 21, 2014, 04:05 AM

    I thought Josephus' post was rigorous, not vitriolic. And rigour sometimes feels like a punch to the solar plexus.

    Galfromusa, read The Great Sea by David Abulafia. It's about the Mediterranean from the dawn of history. Islam figures of course, but takes its place as just another phase of the cycle of history. It's fascinating and strangely reassuring.

    Incidentally, it confirms that multi-cultural trade long pre-dated Islam. Who in their right mind would have imagined otherwise?

  • On why I chose to identify as muslim for so long
     Reply #24 - December 21, 2014, 04:16 AM

    Holy shit did I find a lot of things that I had disliked, but had been sweeping under the rug and hiding from myself. I found 500 words more worth of things I was critical of than things I had liked. This really brings things into perspective. Wow. You guys are right about my outlook not having been very balanced. Once I actually sat down and put together a list, it really is striking how non-ideal even the version of Islam I had been presented with was. Wow. Just wow. This is a real eye-opener. But that's what I came here for, and why I brought this to you guys in the first place.

    Anyways, follow-up post is here: http://pathtokolinahr.blogspot.com/2014/12/culturally-religious-part-2.html

    Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for I have a sonic screwdriver, a tricorder, and a Type 2 phaser.
  • On why I chose to identify as muslim for so long
     Reply #25 - December 21, 2014, 04:38 AM

    It's a bummer, right?
  • On why I chose to identify as muslim for so long
     Reply #26 - December 21, 2014, 05:05 AM

    @lua it's a bit depressing and somewhat scary tbh lol. I'd like to think I am pretty honest with myself, even when I'm hiding my feelings from others, but this little exercise in thinking critically about what I know and what I choose to acknowledge proves that I'm not as good as I thought I was with being honest with myself. I hope this gets better with time. I have high hopes that it will; even acknowledging to myself that I don't have supernatural beliefs anymore is a recent development. This makes me want to go do some critical thinking about all the other things I have been believing.

    Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for I have a sonic screwdriver, a tricorder, and a Type 2 phaser.
  • On why I chose to identify as muslim for so long
     Reply #27 - December 21, 2014, 11:10 AM

    My issue was that a lot of your thoughts were an echo of Eurocentric views just with Muslims instead. By selecting the positives, which some of us question, and ignoring the negatives this crates a distortion of history. Likewise your views of the West's impact is just the opposite by citing negatives only. You blast colonialism of the West but what about colonialism of Muslims? Can those that fell to the conquests and Muslim rule not make the same claim? The class system by religion, the tax system based on religious views first. The devşirme system, forced conversions of these children along with an indoctrination of them as soldiers. So on and so on.

    Maimonides both praises and condemned Muslim rule during his life. His life in Muslim Spain was anything but tolerant as Muslim Spain fell to the rule of far more fundamentalist views from North Africa. He praised the former system but blasts the current system which caused his exile of his family and many other Jews. His life in Egypt in a direct result of his exile by Muslims in Spain. So in one Muslim culture he suffered, in another he did not. However one can not selective pick when instant represents Muslim culture as a whole.

    Centric views are generalizations based on omission of facts followed by projection of these selective points on to a whole group of idea. This is how humans think, we tend to isolate negative and positives rather than including both. This is the first bias that must be countered in views of history. Such views are based on two fallacies. Hasty generalization(1) and no true scots man(2). (1)You take limited data to create a conclusion well outside your data's range, "Muslim Culture". The conclusion created by using (1) is an dentification in which the omitted negatives do not represent "Muslim Culture". This creates a monolithic identification for not just your examples but all that identify as Muslims.

    I identify myself by concepts like you have done. However I do not endorse a culture which as at time endorsed such concepts. I support equality but do not identify myself as culturally Christian Canadian due to either Christian nor Canada figures supporting idea I do. There were numerous Christians which opposed my views so such a label is false. Likewise I do not identify as a cultural Canadian as many Canadians opposed my views. History in both cases supports the idea of cultural uniformity is fallacious. I do not identify myself by the religious and/or political construct either as neither is a monolithic regardless of what their adherence claim. The concepts I support are older than any nation, culture or religion. So I do not both granting an ideology a label it neither represents, created nor deserves.

    I identify as Bogart. This is who I am not what I am.
  • On why I chose to identify as muslim for so long
     Reply #28 - December 21, 2014, 05:30 PM

    So, here are the historical facts, devoid of emotion, as I have had them presented to me, and I guess I'd like to see how they compare with what happened according people who have had a more scholarly history background:

    ...the first university in the world was founded by a Muslim woman...

    But this is all based on the assumption that the facts I listed in the section above are true. If those are in dispute and you can provide me with more data to show they are not true, then I will rethink these perceptions.


    Ian David Morris took a look at this particular claim on his blog:
    http://www.iandavidmorris.com/a_mosque_a_muslimah_and_a_little_white_lie/

    This was mentioned on here a while ago but I think it was before you joined the forum. I expect most of the other claims on your list would look just as problematic if analysed closely.

    I think part of the problem is the confused state of the history of Islam as an academic discipline, with scholars traditionally putting far too much trust in the Islamic sources. This is changing but often there isn't the consensus about many of the basic facts that you'd expect in most other areas of history, leaving things open to the claims of religious apologists.
  • On why I chose to identify as muslim for so long
     Reply #29 - December 21, 2014, 06:51 PM

    Ian David Morris took a look at this particular claim on his blog:
    http://www.iandavidmorris.com/a_mosque_a_muslimah_and_a_little_white_lie/

    This was mentioned on here a while ago but I think it was before you joined the forum. I expect most of the other claims on your list would look just as problematic if analysed closely.

    I think part of the problem is the confused state of the history of Islam as an academic discipline, with scholars traditionally putting far too much trust in the Islamic sources. This is changing but often there isn't the consensus about many of the basic facts that you'd expect in most other areas of history, leaving things open to the claims of religious apologists.


    Excellent article!!
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