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Theme Changer

 Topic: Tzortzis Doesn't like Debates

 (Read 5412 times)
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  • Tzortzis Doesn't like Debates
     Reply #30 - December 18, 2014, 04:49 PM

    W e
    A ll
    N eed
    K uffar
    E lectronic
    R abbit
    S timulation
  • Tzortzis Doesn't like Debates
     Reply #31 - December 18, 2014, 05:30 PM

    So after all this time his argument has basically boiled down to "you can't prove a god doesn't exist"
  • Tzortzis Doesn't like Debates
     Reply #32 - December 18, 2014, 05:37 PM

    no, thats not what it has always been. It ended up there. The evidence based apologetics failed, so now both Christian and Muslim apologists have resorted to an opportunistic spasm of radical scepticism concerning the utility of our cognition, or of evidence itself.
  • Tzortzis Doesn't like Debates
     Reply #33 - December 18, 2014, 06:06 PM

    Does this mean he has given up the 'inimitable' miracle?
  • Tzortzis Doesn't like Debates
     Reply #34 - December 18, 2014, 06:22 PM

    no, he still thinks there is evidence for islam and god. But if you aren't convinced by the evidence, then don't worry, because you don't need any evidence anyway. God just happens to fall in that category of things which don't need evidence. That is lucky.
  • Tzortzis Doesn't like Debates
     Reply #35 - December 18, 2014, 09:27 PM

    Exactly, all of these arguments don't even prove a single thing in Islam's favour. They're just general deist apologetics. The whole thing is a farce.

    Its actually hilarious to watch some of their videos on evolution and other stuff

     

    As long as iERA promote creationism they will never be able to attract intellectually inclined muslims or non muslims to their cause.


    In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
  • Tzortzis Doesn't like Debates
     Reply #36 - December 18, 2014, 10:26 PM

    They still haven't accepted evolution? If that is the case, they really shouldn't be taken seriously at all by any of these universities they give talks at

    "I moreover believe that any religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, cannot be a true system."
    -Thomas Paine
  • Tzortzis Doesn't like Debates
     Reply #37 - December 19, 2014, 01:12 PM

    What about this Adam Deen chap? He seems to be the next big thing. My Muslim friend from university keeps on sending me videos and literature of him. Who the fuck is he? I was reading some of it - very similar to Hamza's rehtoric....
  • Tzortzis Doesn't like Debates
     Reply #38 - December 28, 2014, 11:17 PM

    Does anyone know anything about Hamza during his Islamist days? It seems he likes to pretend it never happened.
  • Tzortzis Doesn't like Debates
     Reply #39 - December 28, 2014, 11:43 PM

    Death to murtad's, consorting with extremist organisations, everybody's mate Andy Choudary in the front row of a debate, basically the reverse of how he is now. He's a convert, and converts tend to throw themselves into the deep end. At this point he couldn't leave if he wanted to so he's making the best of it. Ex-muslims should be treated with love, muslims should be friendly with their non muslim neighbours, etc. He's calmed down and done an about turn but he still bullshits. I don't think he'll ever actually stop. He has no skills to earn a living with. He has no qualifications. He's average intelligence. If he left iERA he'd be working in McDonalds.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Tzortzis Doesn't like Debates
     Reply #40 - December 29, 2014, 03:56 AM

    Wow. I only now bothered listening to this. Did he really just stoop to the level of every Bible-thumping inbred American redneck? "God said it. I believe it. End of."


    Funny enough, that "American-Redneck" line of reasoning is also espoused by a few professional philosophers. The ones I have read specifically are Alvin Plantinga, John Hick and William Alston.

    The reasoning is simple and can be broken down into 3 basic steps.

    Step 1: Not all true beliefs/statements can be demonstrated to be true.

    This is something we all accept. For example, I believe it is true that I ate bread yesterday. There is no way I can provide any reason/evidence for this belief but at the same time I know it is true. There are tons of such beliefs that all of us hold, for which no evidence can be presented.

    However, even though you are unable to provide any evidence, you are still reasonable to hold that belief.

    Step 2: Find a way to claim that God/Religion is part of such a belief that cannot be demonstrated but at the same time is not unreasonable to hold.

    Step 3: Therefore, one does not need to evidence to believe in God.

    For step 2, William Alston and John Hick argues specifically for religious experiences. They say that if one has a religious experience, there is no need to treat it any differently than one would treat a natural experience.

    For example, let's say I see a tree. I believe there is a tree in front of me and now I am experiencing what it is like to be in front of a tree. Notice, that I don't go seeking external evidence for my belief that there is a tree in front of me. I see the tree and that is all I need to hold the "reasonable" belief that there is a tree in front of me.

    Likewise, let's say I see or have the perception of seeing an angel or God in front of me. According to Alston and Hick, I don't require any additional evidence to hold the "reasonable" belief that there is a tree in front of me.

    Plantinga argues for step 2, by asserting that belief in God is a "properly basic belief". I don't like Plantinga so don't have much of a clue of what he specifically argues for.

    The dawahgandists though don't seem to be following any of these philosophers. They are clearly ripping off of Sye Ten Bruggencate. It is only after he appeared on the scene a few years ago, that I started to notice some Muslim forums making up the Islamic equivalents to Sye Ten's Christian non-arguments.

    I really wonder if Muslims have ever made an original argument for their religion? I am willing to be there were probably some obscure Christian figures who made "the literary argument" for the bible before the Qur'an.
  • Tzortzis Doesn't like Debates
     Reply #41 - January 09, 2015, 10:04 PM

    Where's Hamza Tzortzis?

    Where are Hamza's sources?

    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Tzortzis Doesn't like Debates
     Reply #42 - January 09, 2015, 10:55 PM

    .


    Plantinga goes on to state that even if belief in God is properly basic, theistic argument isn't immune to defeat via argumentation on the virtue of it being basic, which goes against the Hamza & iERA narrative of Allah being basic.
    I'll bet that many people aren't aware of this, as they just tend to quote platitudes.

    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
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