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Theme Changer

 Topic: Linguistic miracle

 (Read 11780 times)
  • 12 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Linguistic miracle
     OP - November 24, 2014, 06:25 AM

    As the scientific miracles get debunked apologists seem to be turning to the "linguistic miracle" - that the Qur'an is inimitable. This is convenient as it is unfalsifiable to the layman due to it being in ancient arabic. I don't understand the premise of this miracle as everything is inimitable in an absolute sense, so what is so great about it being unique? I've also read in early Islam, the main miracle Muslims pointed to was their military success. Since ancient arabic is a dead language it would have few people who studied it, and those who do would likely be already be Muslim and will obviously argue the Qur'an is a linguistic miracle. Are there any non-Muslim scholars of ancient arabic that deny this miracle?


    Naerys: Sorry had to edit the thread's subject. It was driving me nuts Tongue
  • Linguistic miricle
     Reply #1 - November 24, 2014, 06:32 AM

    There are many, many scholars of Arabic who argue that not only is the Quran not a miracle linguistically, but it is also incomprehensible gibberish in some parts (I can read a good bit of Arabic and this is true). Scholars of the Inarah school in Germany in particular argue that you need a knowledge of ancient Syriac to truly understand it, because much of it is actually badly understood or translated Syriac Christian liturgical material. See inter alia Christoph Luxenberg and Gerard Puin.

    إطلب العلم ولو في الصين

    Es sitzt keine Krone so fest und so hoch,
    Der mutige Springer erreicht sie doch.

    I don't give a fuck about your war, or your President.
  • Linguistic miricle
     Reply #2 - November 24, 2014, 11:45 AM

    You say you don't understand what is so great about it being unique. The answer is nothing. The argument doesn't work. It doesn't reach the conclusion it aims at.  The problem is the basic logic of the argument. The problem isn't a doubters lack of Arabic.

    if lack of knowledge of Arabic makes you unqualified to judge, then it makes you unqualified to judge in the affirmative either. It makes you unqualified to accept that the quran is a miracle.




  • Linguistic miricle
     Reply #3 - November 24, 2014, 12:37 PM

    The argument as of late is that the Qur'an is a unique, and therefore miraculous, literary production.  This is based on two problems: 1) the idea that most people in Arabia were illiterate and 2) that all of the material from pre-Islamic Arabia was preserved.  We cannot know if the Qur'an was unique; other examples of pre-Islamic literary culture in Arabic do not survive.  The fact that the Arabic script developed in a cursive way proves that people were writing Arabic ink frequently.  We just do not know what they were writing.  Also, Arabia is filled with inscriptions.  The idea of an illiterate society smack middle of the peninsula doesn't make much historical sense.  If you put the Qur'an in light of these facts, we really cannot know how 'unique' it was - and so the entire linguistic miracle argument is ex silentio. 
  • Linguistic miricle
     Reply #4 - November 24, 2014, 04:43 PM

    You say you don't understand what is so great about it being unique. The answer is nothing. The argument doesn't work. It doesn't reach the conclusion it aims at.  The problem is the basic logic of the argument. The problem isn't a doubters lack of Arabic.

    if lack of knowledge of Arabic makes you unqualified to judge, then it makes you unqualified to judge in the affirmative either. It makes you unqualified to accept that the quran is a miracle.




    That's a valid point. If we are unable to understand the miracle, is it really a miracle? If a tree falls in the forrest and nobody hears it, does it make a sound? 
  • Linguistic miricle
     Reply #5 - November 24, 2014, 05:57 PM

    I've just been reading this article by Robert Kerr which goes into the linguistic background of the Qur'an:

    Aramaisms in the Qur'an and their significance

    Does anyone have any thoughts on this?

    Edit: there's a shorter version of his argument here: The language of the Koran


    Quote
    When we look at Late Antique Syro-Palestine and Arabia in the early seventh century, the time when Islam is said to have become a religion, an interesting yet complex mosaic of cultures and languages can be observed. Linguistically, various languages were spoken and written. Here we confront a common long-persisting misconception, namely that the Arabs were largely illiterate before Islam. Nothing could be farther from the truth. Roughly speaking, Arabia in Antiquity was divided into three geographical regions: Arabia Felix, Deserta and Petraea.

    In the South-western corner (approximately modern Yemen), Arabia Felix, or “Happy Arabia,” various South Arabian Semitic languages were spoken, the most important of which is Sabaean, written in a Semitic script which split off from the Syro-Palestinian alphabetic tradition during the Bronze Age. Ancient Yemen was heavily involved in the spice and incense (later also the silk) trade from which it garnered considerable wealth.

    To the North, in what is now more or less Saudi Arabia, was the Classical Arabia Deserta, or “Abandoned Arabia,” home to Mecca and Medina, a region sparsely inhabited by nomadic tribes and various oasis settlements, often caravanserais for the long-distance trade. The contemporary local languages are nowadays designated as Ancient North Arabian: they are interrelated Semitic (oasis) dialects that, however, are not direct ancestors of Classical Arabic. Inscriptions in these languages or dialects are attested roughly from the sixth century BC to the sixth century AD throughout the region into the modern Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan. The writing culture of Arabia Deserta was borrowed from the South—i.e., they used variants of the Ancient (epigraphic) South Arabian script.

    Further to the North, in the geographical area of Syro-Palestine (which includes the Egyptian Sinai, Israel, Jordan, Lebanon, Syria and South-eastern Turkey and North-western Iraq) was Arabia Petraea, or the Provincia Arabia, the Roman border province whose capital was Petra. This region had been exposed to Greco-Roman culture for close to a millennium. The major written languages here were Greek and various Aramaic dialects, the most important of which was Syriac. Furthermore, much of the population of this region (unlike in Arabia Deserta) had converted to one form or another of Christianity (which was anything but an homogenous, monolithic entity). The important point that must be noted is that although in Arabia Petraea Aramaic and Greek texts are often attributed to the Nabateans, Palmyrinians and others who were actually neither Aramaean nor Greek, their names and occasional stray words in inscriptions show that they were ethnically Arab. We are dealing with a situation similar to that of medieval Western Europe in which Latin was the written language, while the spoken languages (vernaculars) were the precursors of the languages spoken today.

    Briefly summarized, the Arabic language (especially with regard to the primary diagnostic feature, the definite article al-) and script of Arabia Petraea are the precursors of the classical Arabic script and language. Before Islam, texts in the Aramaic script are hardly attested south of the modern state of Jordan and then only in the extreme North-west corner of modern Saudi Arabia. In Arabia Felix and Deserta other scripts and languages were current. It is in Arabia Petraea that we find occasional Arabic texts in an Aramaic script and even Arabic written in Greek characters. A sixth/seventh century fragment of Psalm 78 found in the Umayyad “Mosque” at Damascus shows just how close this Arabic is to what would later morph into Classical Arabic (e.g., imala). The precursor to Classical Arabic was thus spoken in Syria, not in the Hijaz.

    We now have two independent sources of prima facie contemporary evidence—aerial linguistics and script distribution—to show that the language of the Koran must be based on a Syro-Palestinian Arabo-Semitic dialect and that the script employed was not that used in Mecca and Medina of the period, but the one used in Arabia Petraea. If the Koran is actually a product of the Hijaz, then we would expect it to be in a different (Ancient North Arabian) Semitic language and written in a different script. That is not the case. The traditional account of the Koran’s origins is not supported by the evidence.

    The peculiar thing about the Arabic script we are familiar with today is its polyvalence—i.e., it needs diacritical dots (i`jam) to distinguish between otherwise identical consonantal characters (rasm). For example, the Arabic glyph ں can be read as b (ب ), t (ت), th (ث), n (ث) and medially as y (ی). Thus the Arabic script distinguishes eighteen glyphs that are made distinct by diacritics to render twenty-eight phonemes. A part this polyvalence is not phonetically conditioned; it is due to the cursive erosion of distinct forms (e.g., b, n, medial y). In other cases, it is due to the fact that a twenty-two letter Aramaic alphabet was later supplemented to render additional Arabic phonemes (i.e., sounds that Aramaic had lost, but which survived in Arabic) by adding a diacritical dot to the nearest phonetic approximant. This, along with borrowed Aramaic orthographic customs (such as the tāʾ marbūṭah to mark the feminine ending, the alif otiosum, etc.) shows unmistakably that Arabic writing evolved from a long tradition of writing Aramaic and can, therefore, only have occurred in a region where the Arabs had had a long exposure to Aramaic writing culture. The only place where this could have happened is Arabia Petraea. If the Koran were actually a product of Mecca and Medina, then (besides it being written in a different Semitic language) it would have had been composed in the South Arabian script which unambiguously differentiates each of the twenty-eight phonemes of Arabic and which, by this time, had a twelve hundred year tradition in the Hijaz. That this ideally suited script was not used means that it was unknown to the writers of the Koran.

    The fact that both the script and language of the Koran point to the Classical Arabia Petraea of Syro-Palestine, and not Arabia Deserta, is further supported by the fact that the Koran’s vocabulary is largely borrowed from Aramaic, especially Syriac, the liturgical language of the local churches. Needless to say, the semantics of the technical religious vocabulary of the Koran, the spelling of the names of biblical figures, and the often subtle biblical allusions presuppose an intimate knowledge of biblical literature in its Syro-Aramiac tradition. Syro-Palestine was heavily Christianized by the seventh century. Although there is some evidence of Christianity and Judaism in “happy” and  “deserted” Arabia during this period, it just does not appear to have the critical mass necessary to launch a new religion. Furthermore, the theological, doctrinal controversies that gave rise to the “heresies” that permeated Late Antique society were largely absent outside of the Roman Empire. Thus, all of the contemporary epigraphical, literary and linguistic evidence points to Islam being a product of Arabs living in Syro-Palestine.

    This claim stands in stark contrast to the traditional narrative of a blitzkrieg from the Hijaz into Syro-Palestine. This event has vexed modern archaeologists. There is simply no archaeological support for a quick, violent and destructive invasion of Syro-Palestine as reported by traditional Islamic sources. Instead, excavations reveal a continuity of occupation and culture: the period in question is, archaeologically speaking, quite uneventful and conservative. The major cultural changes in ceramics and the like (such as the introduction of glazed wares) only occur in the eighth century. There is an uninterrupted settlement continuum through the Umayyad period (in which the mosaic as an art-form reached its peak) into Abbasid times. Even then the change is gradual rather than sudden. Where there was change, it consisted of a tendency towards smaller settlements in the countryside, which became favored over towns. Archaeologically speaking, then, an Arab or Muslim conquest of Syro-Palestine is invisible.  And the reason for this was that the Arabs were already living in the region as evidenced by their language. In the end, archaeology, epigraphy and linguistics mitigate against a Hijazi origin of the Koran. The latter can only be a product of Hellenistic Syro-Palestine.


    He continues the argument here: Islam, Arabs and the Hijra
  • Linguistic miricle
     Reply #6 - November 24, 2014, 06:45 PM

    If Muslims could coherently explain what they meant by 'linguistic miracle,' then you might be able to respond it.  But I've never seen anything but gobbledygook on that front.  The entire doctrine also seemingly keeps changing, such that you start with a presumed miracle and end up with 50 ways to explain what is miraculous about it, rather than the reverse:  Finding features about the Qur'an that cannot be explained.

    The other problem is the David Hume point -- it is epistemologically always much easier to explain a miracle by non-miraculous factors.  Using the example given above, if I granted that it's impossible the Qur'an was written by an illiterate pagan within the Hijaz, then I can conclude (a) it was written by Allah in heavenly tablets and delivered by an angel .... OR I can just conclude (b) that it was not written by an illiterate pagan within the Hijaz.  The Muslim might respond that this is impossible because there is so much evidence regarding Mohammed's life, to which I would respond ... yes, if such evidence was valid, then the Qur'an was orally delivered by an illiterate Hijazi .... OR your evidence is invalid.  And there is no question whatsoever that the evidence is invalid.  In fact, using one of my favorite examples, Bukhari gave his hadith compilation the name "the valid" BECAUSE everybody agreed that the vast majority of hadith circulating at his time were fraudulent.  Bukhari himself accepted about 6,000 hadith out of 600,000 he claims to have reviewed.  So if Bukhari himself found that 99% of the hadith he reviewed were fraudulent, it is the easiest step in the world to say they are almost 100% fraudulent ... rather than accepting miracle claims as the alternative.
  • Linguistic miricle
     Reply #7 - November 24, 2014, 07:08 PM

    I've just been reading this article by Robert Kerr which goes into the linguistic background of the Qur'an:

    Aramaisms in the Qur'an and their significance

    Does anyone have any thoughts on this?



    Why does Kerr give the entire Fertile Crescent as Arabia Petraea?  That was really just the Trans-Jordan and perhaps the Sinai...
  • Linguistic miricle
     Reply #8 - November 24, 2014, 07:20 PM

    ^Thanks. Any more thoughts on the reliability of his arguments?
  • Linguistic miricle
     Reply #9 - November 24, 2014, 07:45 PM

    ˆin general, I find Kerr's main argument that Arabia Petrea has Quran-like writing and Arabia Deserta doesn't a bit too simplistic.  The Hijaz is filled with Nabataean inscriptions, and the transition from Nabataean to Arabic occurred in the northern Hijaz.  The south Semitic script was used in the central and southern peninsula (and in Syria!), but it was used beside the Nabataean in at least one case.  I took a class on the Ancient North Arabian inscriptions and one of the main problems is that we do not know anything about when people stopped writing these inscriptions; we do not know if people were still writing ancient north arabian in the 6th or 7th centuries AD in the Arabian Peninsula.  I only glanced at his etymologies, but there seem to be some problems there too.  sifr, asfaar, Kerr argues, comes from Syria.  This might ultimately be true but the word is used in Ancient North Arabian way before the Christian era, and so it could have been a really early loan having nothing to do with Christianity.  Also Classical Arabic could have loaned it from an Ancient North Arabian dialect rather than Syriac...
  • Linguistic miricle
     Reply #10 - November 24, 2014, 08:16 PM

    The Nabatean script had, until recently, only been known from pretty far to the North however.  But just a couple months ago we have a report of the first known Nabatean Arabic inscription from all the way down near Najran (!) by Yemen (!) two hundred years before Mohammed (!).

    http://www.arabnews.com/news/art-culture/611411

    If true, this means that Nabatean script was more widely used than we otherwise knew, including across an area where ASA scripts had been dominant.

    However I would prefer to see other scholars weigh in on what this alleged Najran Arabic actually is ... the term "Arabic" is thrown around very loosely, and one wonders what features were used to determine that the Najran inscription is Arabic ... or what kind of Arabic.  Also it's very strange that Nabatean would be used since it's such an awful script for writing Arabic, but by the same token the Arabic script (defective as it was) was clearly used for secular purposes to write Arabic prior to being adopted to write the Qur'an.  And this is very odd.  It requires some explanation as to why such a lousy script was ever adopted for Arabic, and I think the reason can only be located in longstanding Arabic engagement with the literate societies of the North, in an Aramaic context, whence the Qur'anic theology and terminology derived like its orthography.  Had the Qur'an not emerged in that context, it would have presumably been written in the scripts that dominated the Arabian peninsula, and which are vastly more suitable for writing Arabic *as long as you aren't constrained by pre-existing dominant scribal tradition at the place of composition*, which was evidently the case for the Qur'an.

    Unfortunately that article gives no detailed information about the inscription.    finmad

    I agree that Kerr doesn't exactly wow me as a scholar, he's not exactly an intellectual fireball, though in many respects I find myself agreeing with his positions.
  • Linguistic miricle
     Reply #11 - November 24, 2014, 08:51 PM

    ^Here's the original announcement: http://www.diplomatie.gouv.fr/en/country-files/saudi-arabia/events-3362/article/news-from-the-cultural-network

    Is this talking about the Arabic language or the use of a proto-Arabic alphabet to write a local language? Would Arabic have been spoken in this part of Arabia at the time?
  • Linguistic miricle
     Reply #12 - November 24, 2014, 09:06 PM

    Well that's exactly the point:  What is Arabic, anyways, relative to other central Semitic languages?  What linguistic features define a language as Arabic?  Without a good answer to that question, it's meaningless to say the inscription is Arabic ... rather, Arabian. 

    The Najran inscription is clearly in a Nabatean-derived script, because it would be impossible to confuse that with an ASA-derived  script.  So I think it must be certain that this script penetrated all the way down the coast at some level.  But that doesn't answer what language the script expresses.

    You might remember Al-Jallad's recent article in which he demolishes the 'Arabic' nature of what had previously thought to be the oldest written Arabic text, Old Arabic written in the ASA script.

    https://www.academia.edu/8770005/Al-Jallad._2014._On_the_genetic_background_of_the_Rbbl_bn_Hf%CA%BFm_grave_inscription_at_Qaryat_al-F%C4%81w

    Qaryat al Faw is similarly far South, near Yemen.  I would not be overly surprised if this new "Arabic" inscription is being hailed as Arabic because it includes the "al" definite article.  But is it really a descendent of proto-Arabic, i.e. Old Arabic?  What type of Arabic does it represent, and what are its linguistic features?  We'll have to wait to find out.  Bearing in mind what Al-Jallad says while arguing that the Qaryat al Faw inscription is not Old Arabic: 

    "The uncritical identification of this inscription as Arabic seems to have been influenced by a belief that there were only two languages in Arabia in the pre-Islamic period – ASA and Arabic  – and that any given inscription must  be either one or the other.  Although our knowledge of pre-Islamic Arabia’s linguistic diversity is still in its infancy, it is now clear that the Arabian Peninsula was home to a wide variety of non-Arabic Semitic languages. Thus the identification of the language of this epitaph as a variety of “Old Arabic" must rest on the identification of isoglosses unique to Arabic rather than features which are simply absent in ASA."

    It sucks, and is a bit suspicious, that these news articles omit to mention what the new inscription says.  But regardless of what it says, it should hopefully provide an important new insight into the diversity of Arabian languages and scripts c. 450 AD.
  • Linguistic miricle
     Reply #13 - November 24, 2014, 09:15 PM

    This whole miracle is an argument from incredibility. People assume that someone who is illiterate is incapable of creating literature. Yet people such as Margery Kempe were illiterate. She is recorded as the first person to create an autobiography in English. People do not ascribe anything miraculous to her but she is not a religious icon.
  • Linguistic miricle
     Reply #14 - November 24, 2014, 09:32 PM

    I think the theory of Muhammad's illiteracy first arose as a way to argue against Christians and Jews who said the Qur'an was just a bad ripoff of their scriptures -- it was argued that Muhammad was illiterate and therefore could not have known about the other scriptures, he must have received divine revelation instead, that's the only explanation for how he could have produced these proclamations.

    But there are innumerable problems with that, starting with the thesis that Muhammad was illiterate ... and Muslim tradition is all over the place on that ... or the claim that the Qur'an is oral literature (it isn't), or that oral literature can't be a masterpiece anyways (cue Homer, Mahabharata, etc.).  None of the argument makes any sense.  Which is why modern secular scholars have never taken it seriously.

    So originally the tradition of illiteracy did not have anything to do with 'inimitability,' but rather was a way of arguing that Mohammed knew things that could only be explained as revelation -- just as the young Jesus, in Christian tradition, disputed with the Jewish scholars at the Temple and through his vast inexplicable knowledge proved he had a private line with God.  In that sense, it was used as a proof of miraculousness.  This is part of the reason why the tradition also took pains to locate Mohammed's first revelations in 'pagan Mecca.'  Again, the imperative was to emphasize how only divine inspiration could have given him such knowledge about Biblical traditions; it wasn't just a ripoff from the Jews and Christians.
  • Linguistic miricle
     Reply #15 - November 24, 2014, 09:35 PM

    In case you aren't familiar with that Jesus episode, btw, here it is:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finding_in_the_Temple

    A common Semitic religious argument, somebody untutored is greatly knowledgeable about religion, amazing everybody = the angels must be giving him a cheat sheet, he's a prophet, this is a miracle.  Here he is, the illiterate and untutored Jesus, blowing the scholars' minds with his knowledge bombs, just as Mo would do after him.  Note the Jews clutching their written Torah, but Jesus has the scriptures in his heart, he's God, so he needs no corrupt written text.

  • Linguistic miricle
     Reply #16 - November 24, 2014, 10:04 PM


    It sucks, and is a bit suspicious, that these news articles omit to mention what the new inscription says.  But regardless of what it says, it should hopefully provide an important new insight into the diversity of Arabian languages and scripts c. 450 AD.


    Good scholars must always be suspicious.  I went and found my notes on a talk I attended on this subject.  The inscriptions have sadly been sensationalised.  One of the inscriptions is dated to 469-70 of the era of Provincia Arabia.  They are accompanied by crosses.  They are written in the Nabataeo-Arabic transitional script.  The language is Nabataean Aramaic but the personal names are Arabian.  They are on a trade route which means they were probably not written by locals.  The fact that the authors used the Roman era sort of proves the last point.
  • Linguistic miricle
     Reply #17 - November 24, 2014, 10:57 PM

    Well that's pretty lame if those are the inscriptions being talked about, though it's interesting in itself that Christian Nabatean-Aramaic texts had penetrated all the way down to Yemen as early as 469 AD!  This makes it easier to argue that the Qur'an could have originated in a more southern context, albeit by showing that its background (Nabatean Arabic Christianity) was the source.

    After all, these new inscriptions were from near Najran, which is famous for ... being a center of Arab Christian martyrdom long before Mohammed's time.  Also chock full of Jews.  So it's perhaps not overly surprising that the Christians of the Najran area would have dealings with the Christians of Nabatea.

    It reminds me of the irony that Nabatean Arabic inscriptions (as opposed to Nabatean Aramaic) seem to be distinctively Christian, and come from Jordan/Syria.  Hoyland discusses these, but then (typically for him) fails to consider how striking it is that the earliest Arabic script texts ... are a mixture of Arabic and Aramaic, written in a Christian context, hailing from Jordan/Palestine/Syria.  Much like the ur-Qur'an is oft postulated to have been.
  • Linguistic miricle
     Reply #18 - November 25, 2014, 12:29 AM

    It is a very interesting find!  If these 9 texts (only one dated) were composed by Christian Arabs living in Najran, then they certainly came from further north.  There is no reason to suspect that they would have cut ties with their coreligionists in the Hijaz and beyond.  I see no problem with arguing that the Qur'an originated in a community of Christian or Jewish Arabs settled further south, but still maintaining northern cultural elements, such as the script and language.  We have to remember that these are in the transitional Nabataeao-Arabic script and not the fully evolved Arabic script.  That has so far only been found in Syria.
  • Linguistic miricle
     Reply #19 - November 25, 2014, 06:43 PM

    For the linguists here:

    Graeco-Arabica I: the southern Levant - Ahmad Al-Jallad
    http://www.academia.edu/7583140/Graeco-Arabica_I_the_southern_Levant
  • Linguistic miricle
     Reply #20 - December 04, 2014, 07:53 AM

    ^ That looks really interesting, but most of it flies right over my head  Tongue Does the author deny or affirm the "linguistic miracle"? Are there other ancient Arabic scholars that focus on the linguistic miracle? Hamza Tzortzis - the main proponent of the claim, can't even speak Arabic let alone ancient Arabic so he's obviously not a reliable source  Cheesy
  • Linguistic miricle
     Reply #21 - December 04, 2014, 09:37 AM



    A picture speaks a thousand words!!
  • Linguistic miricle
     Reply #22 - December 04, 2014, 09:39 AM

    ^ That looks really interesting, but most of it flies right over my head  Tongue Does the author deny or affirm the "linguistic miracle"? Are there other ancient Arabic scholars that focus on the linguistic miracle? Hamza Tzortzis - the main proponent of the claim, can't even speak Arabic let alone ancient Arabic so he's obviously not a reliable source  Cheesy


    I assume you've seen the CEMB video about this? If not here it is:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2CHm2xigkBc
  • Linguistic miricle
     Reply #23 - December 04, 2014, 09:50 AM

    ^ That looks really interesting, but most of it flies right over my head  Tongue Does the author deny or affirm the "linguistic miracle"? Are there other ancient Arabic scholars that focus on the linguistic miracle? Hamza Tzortzis - the main proponent of the claim, can't even speak Arabic let alone ancient Arabic so he's obviously not a reliable source  Cheesy


    The paper does not talk about the language of the Qur'an or miracles.  It is about the pronunciation of pre-Islamic Arabic, but a lot of the arguments could inform a close linguistic study of the Qur'anic text.  That is not carried out in the linked paper though...
  • Linguistic miricle
     Reply #24 - December 04, 2014, 09:51 AM

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKTA2IRl_O4
  • Linguistic miricle
     Reply #25 - December 04, 2014, 10:02 AM



    What's Russell Brand doing in there?
  • Linguistic miricle
     Reply #26 - December 04, 2014, 01:10 PM

    Oh my god. Cheesy Cheesy I was looking for him and it took forever, you have a good eye.
  • Linguistic miricle
     Reply #27 - December 04, 2014, 03:42 PM

    What's Russell Brand doing in there?


    Can't unsee.

    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Linguistic miricle
     Reply #28 - December 05, 2014, 07:19 PM

    if lack of knowledge of Arabic makes you unqualified to judge, then it makes you unqualified to judge in the affirmative either. It makes you unqualified to accept that the quran is a miracle.


    Precisely, I have heard tzortiz try and get around this obstacle by comparing it to knowing china exists but never seeing it  Roll Eyes
  • Linguistic miricle
     Reply #29 - December 08, 2014, 09:27 PM

    Can Allah produce something like the quran?

    I think this question might be the quickest way to castrate the linguistic miracle argument.
    I just can't find a Muslim who is willing to entertain the idea that it is (to whatever extent possible) a genuine question.

    Is the quran so unique that not even Allah can produce something like it?
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