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 Topic: How to point out problems in the Quran and what?

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  • How to point out problems in the Quran and what?
     OP - November 22, 2014, 12:05 AM
    My Muslim guy and I have been talking about Religion a lot. I never knew Muslims take every word in the Quran so literal. I was thinking many may be like modern Christians, that they believe in god but not every damn passage in a book. The bible has some evil stuff about smashing babies on rocks for example..
    The Quran has some equally horrible things, yet on the sites he showed me it shows a way prettier version. Like so much must have been left out, it looks as if men and women are totally equals and as if women are downright worshipped and marriages bliss.
    lua explained some things about this to me already.
    I would like to show him what I believe to be the true Quran, maybe it will open his mind to a more agnostic view of god. I don't want to force him to give up the belief of god, I am somewhat of an agnostic myself...but I think seeing that the Quran is mostly?/also?/ completely? (not sure) manmade would be better for us.
    So if you wanted to show someone the other point of view, what information would you share with them? I am thinking websites, videos, or what passages should be double checked on.
    You see I'm not very knowledgeable yet Smiley (I'm not religious and don't plan to be btw.)
    ☽Nyd byp nearu on breostan; weorpep hi peah oft nipa bearnum, to helpe and to haele gehwaere, gif hi his hlystap aeror.☾
    Trouble is oppressive to the heart;
    yet often it proves a source of help and salvation
    to the children of men, to everyone who heeds it betimes.
  • How to point out problems in the Quran and what?
     Reply #1 - November 22, 2014, 03:32 AM
    If you believe the Quran is not Divine, then you are not Muslim. Islam does not have ¨inspired¨ spiritual text like Christianity does. It is supposed to be verbatim the words of Gibreel (Gabriel) to Mohammed.
    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • How to point out problems in the Quran and what?
     Reply #2 - November 22, 2014, 03:58 AM
    If he's showing you a bullshit version, it may be Harun Yahya, who is quite influential among some Turks (and is fill of bullshit).

    Anyway lotsa links here: Online Islamic Texts (Quran, Ahadith, Tafseer & Ibn Ishaq)


    ETA: Be warned that a lot of it is wut-inducing and depressing. Your keyboard may expire if you headbutt it too much.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • How to point out problems in the Quran and what?
     Reply #3 - November 22, 2014, 12:05 PM
    Is a new charity needed?  Society for the Protection and Care of Keyboards? SPCK?
    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • How to point out problems in the Quran and what?
     Reply #4 - November 22, 2014, 09:25 PM
    Quote from: three on November 22, 2014, 03:32 AM
    If you believe the Quran is not Divine, then you are not Muslim. Islam does not have ¨inspired¨ spiritual text like Christianity does. It is supposed to be verbatim the words of Gibreel (Gabriel) to Mohammed.


    So someone can not believe in Allah but see the Quran as corrupted?
    I was thinking it would be possible. Like making your own rules...
    I believe in whatever I want, whichever way I want. Just whatever makes sense. So I could imagine there may be something godly like Allah...just not in the way people imagine.
    ☽Nyd byp nearu on breostan; weorpep hi peah oft nipa bearnum, to helpe and to haele gehwaere, gif hi his hlystap aeror.☾
    Trouble is oppressive to the heart;
    yet often it proves a source of help and salvation
    to the children of men, to everyone who heeds it betimes.
  • How to point out problems in the Quran and what?
     Reply #5 - November 22, 2014, 09:27 PM
    Quote from: osmanthus on November 22, 2014, 03:58 AM
    If he's showing you a bullshit version, it may be Harun Yahya, who is quite influential among some Turks (and is fill of bullshit).

    Anyway lotsa links here: Online Islamic Texts (Quran, Ahadith, Tafseer & Ibn Ishaq)


    ETA: Be warned that a lot of it is wut-inducing and depressing. Your keyboard may expire if you headbutt it too much.


    Lol...I dread reading it already.
    This - http://www.questionsonislam.com/question/what-are-rights-women-islam-how-do-you-answer-claims-islam-puts-pressure-and-limitations-wo
    is a page he recommended, and so much of it seems watered down. He says many sources are corrupted... Huh?
    ☽Nyd byp nearu on breostan; weorpep hi peah oft nipa bearnum, to helpe and to haele gehwaere, gif hi his hlystap aeror.☾
    Trouble is oppressive to the heart;
    yet often it proves a source of help and salvation
    to the children of men, to everyone who heeds it betimes.
  • How to point out problems in the Quran and what?
     Reply #6 - November 22, 2014, 09:32 PM
    If you believe the Quran is not Divine, then why bother believing in it at all? It is made very clear that the Quran is the word of Allah as through the mouth of Gabriel spoken into the ear of Muhammad. If Quran was believed corrupt, it would immediately allow Islam to enter the Modern Age. But because it is literal, you have archaic laws like beheadings and hand amputations and lesser inheritence for women being enforced in Shariah compliant countries. Why else would such practices endure?
    The only way I can shut down Muslim apologists is by referencing Quran. Once they are faced with proof, they cannot deny. Even Muslims who think, act, and behave civilly will admit that their understanding is deficient in the face of the word of Allah, and accept the most horrific acts as holy because they are condoned in Quran.
    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • How to point out problems in the Quran and what?
     Reply #7 - November 22, 2014, 09:33 PM
    Quote from: Nyd on November 22, 2014, 09:25 PM
    So someone can not believe in Allah but see the Quran as corrupted?
    I was thinking it would be possible. Like making your own rules...
    I believe in whatever I want, whichever way I want. Just whatever makes sense. So I could imagine there may be something godly like Allah...just not in the way people imagine.


    Allah is not godly. He is petty, cruel, and overinvolved in people's affairs while insisting he is the nicest and most merciful being  and if you don't understand Him, it is because you are deficient. Like an abusive psychopath.
    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • How to point out problems in the Quran and what?
     Reply #8 - November 22, 2014, 09:53 PM
    Basically, Nyd, the qur’an is utterly distinct from the bible — although some people believe in the bible’s literal truth, people tend mostly to see it as ‘inspired by god’. The qur’an according to Islamic beliefs, on the other hand, represents the LITERAL words of allah itself. This is despite several passages sounding like they come from the mouth of a man.
  • How to point out problems in the Quran and what?
     Reply #9 - November 23, 2014, 02:05 PM
    Kodanshi
    Yeah, maybe that is where I made the mistake. I was raised Christian. Not strictly but I've done my bible reading in school and during one year we call "Konfirmation", which I went along with out of tradition and b it was fun...we baked and crafted, went on trips.  Roll Eyes Not because I believed.

    three
    I think I understand what you mean by the abusive psychopath...well said.

    I mentioned some passages to my guy and he said I am only looking at a few pages... Huh? Huh? I did not say exactly what they said, just that some sounded really evil.
    We agreed that I will send him what I mean so he can have a look and tell me what he thinks.

    Everyone:

    So like I said, I have opened the debate and challenged his Quran. I know of some passages that talk about having sex with a little girl etc. and I would like to show the exact passages to him. From a reputable source.

    One problem is that he believes some sources to be "corrupted". He also may think things could get lost in translation.

    I also spoke of geographical and scientific errors...like the splitting of the moon, or something about a mountain that was simply placed down  Cheesy
    Just, he doesn't believe in all science and thinks some science is corrupted...so it will be hard to prove some things.
    (I'm a former science student, some science really is corrupted and laid out a certain way to benefit companies or political agendas Wink, so it will be hard to explain why I believe some science)

    If you want share certain passages or things that really made you reconsider Islam...I think what worked best in convincing users here, might also make the most sense to him...IF it will make sense to him.

    So thank you and keep the info coming! Smiley
    ☽Nyd byp nearu on breostan; weorpep hi peah oft nipa bearnum, to helpe and to haele gehwaere, gif hi his hlystap aeror.☾
    Trouble is oppressive to the heart;
    yet often it proves a source of help and salvation
    to the children of men, to everyone who heeds it betimes.
  • How to point out problems in the Quran and what?
     Reply #10 - November 23, 2014, 05:52 PM
     parrot
    Attached image is missing * problems.jpg (60.99 KB, 400x800 - viewed 587 times.)
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • How to point out problems in the Quran and what?
     Reply #11 - November 23, 2014, 08:17 PM
    Ugh, Nyd, getting crazy flashbacks. I also was/am still a student studying science, and it made it ultra frustrating that my husband thought all science was just weak "guessing."

    I remember one of the first inaccuracies I tried to point out in the Quran was the verse about shooting stars being anti-jinn missiles. And he was just like, "So? What's wrong with that?" And that's when I was sure I was in for a long, terrible ride.
  • How to point out problems in the Quran and what?
     Reply #12 - December 01, 2014, 02:56 PM
    In Finland the other day, a law was passed for same-sex marriage. My Muslim 'friends' were furious as you can imagine. No, not furious, most of them felt 'sad', victimised and 'whataboutthechildren??' I finally came clean with them and said I am from an lgbt family and I don't appreciate you putting words into my mouth. They responded like 'OH we don't mean your family dear but the others!' And then continued to compare my lovely dad and his partner to animals, murderers and child rapists. (Murder and sex with children being fine according to the Quran, by the way. Murder you can see from the following and sex with children - can't remember the verse but I will look it up.)

    Sooo that was too much for me. I posted this sneaky thing on my Facebook, feeling immensely guilty for the trickery but at the same time sick of all the crap I had been told. Here it is:

    Quote
    ME: Found this online - would you classify it as hate speech?
    “Muslims are the vilest of animals…”
    “Show mercy to one another, but be ruthless to Muslims”
    “How perverse are Muslims!”
    “Strike off the heads of Muslims, as well as their fingertips”
    “Fight those Muslims who are near to you”
    “Muslim mischief makers should be murdered or crucified”
     
    Muslim girl I know: Yes, because it provoke people to act violently towards specific group. 
     
    Only about first and third statements, they're racist and prejudical speech.
     It's also good to be aware of that other countries have own definition of hate speech, so it is not yet universally agreed concept, what hate speech probably is. 
     In Finland concept hate speech is more wide and extended compared to many other states and definitions, but it has been discussed, if Finland should also narrow and specify the definition more accurately.
    In nutshell, this is what hate speech is (notes from Hate Speech Seminar held in Warsaw 2014) (Note is in Finnish, if here is someone, who does not understand Finnish, don't hesitate to ask for translation):
     
    Mitä viharikos on?...(Finnish text removed)
    Whoops I mixed the concepts now. The last thing is about hate crime and..I'll correct mysel when.I'm back home

    ME:  I agree, it is definitely hate speech and I don't agree with it at all. Here is the original text (not sure which translator)

    Quran (8:55) - Surely the vilest of animals in Allah's sight are those who disbelieve
    Quran (48:29) - Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. And those with him are hard (ruthless) against the disbelievers and merciful among themselves
    Quran (9:30) - And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah, and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah... Allah (Himself) fights against them. How perverse are they!
    Quran (8:12) - I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them
    Quran (9:123) - O you who believe! Fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness
    Quran (5:33) - The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement
     


    Sadly there have been no responses since I posted the Quranic quotes. But there you have it - a Muslim almost saying that the Quran has hate speech in it (as indeed it does). How can such a book be the word of any God?

    BTW, my husband and I were both Muslims and after reading the Quran, are no longer such grin12 such is the power of Al-Quran...does the work for itself really.
    Don't damn me when I speak my mind, 'cause silence isn't golden when I'm holding it inside. - Guns n' Roses

    3 koiraa 1 kissa <3
  • How to point out problems in the Quran and what?
     Reply #13 - December 01, 2014, 03:18 PM
    One of the old members here made some pretty good videos on just that topic:

    for example:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zLdfvGcQa4c

    and:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O3iPFN9l3Us

    And there are other videos on the same channel here:

    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCFjqnpTL0RUh6SB8izTdLxw


  • How to point out problems in the Quran and what?
     Reply #14 - December 21, 2014, 03:21 PM
    http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/index.htm
  • How to point out problems in the Quran and what?
     Reply #15 - December 21, 2014, 03:24 PM
    Oh, yeah, I wonder how Nyd's doing!
  • How to point out problems in the Quran and what?
     Reply #16 - December 25, 2014, 12:45 AM
    Thanks everyone! The past weeks have been hard. As some have guessed he got more extreme with time. He even hinted that he made himself "easier" to get to know me. In a way he kept things from me.

    It is very obvious now it is all a strategy. A few times it seemed he compromised with me. Like he let me go out and drink with friends like usual, but then had very extreme moments where he asked me to "accept his rules". I did not understand what he meant by it at first and when I tried to argue reasonable problems he got very weird and said I have no respect Huh?  Huh?
    I asked him to be honest and he then laid it all out....he wants a Muslim wife as traditional as they can be. Listen to all his "commands" basically or even sleep when he tells me to, I read up on it and everything he wants is in Islam. I don't agree with this type of relationship at all. I even think it is very unhealthy.

    I doubt he will come around or that there is a future for us. But I still want to summarize a damn good letter that will "show" him all the flaws in his religious ways because to me he is mislead and it I want to tell him what I honestly think. I assume he will look for someone else then. I doubt he is the kind of man that will apply common sense. He truly thinks this is the right way and all others are ignorant animals. He thinks a woman will not love him, cheat on him or leave him if he does not cage her and get her to obey him. Me saying no to this in his eyes means I don't love him. This is by far the craziest thing I have ever witnessed in life. I did not think Islam is that bad, but to me so many things are just horrible.

    ☽Nyd byp nearu on breostan; weorpep hi peah oft nipa bearnum, to helpe and to haele gehwaere, gif hi his hlystap aeror.☾
    Trouble is oppressive to the heart;
    yet often it proves a source of help and salvation
    to the children of men, to everyone who heeds it betimes.
  • How to point out problems in the Quran and what?
     Reply #17 - December 25, 2014, 04:05 AM
    Hey, sorry to hear that, Nyd.  far away hug

    Quote
    This is by far the craziest thing I have ever witnessed in life. I did not think Islam is that bad, but to me so many things are just horrible.


    I have moral objections to even the most liberal interpretations of Islam I've come across. Although, I do want to assure you that not all Muslims are going to be like this, but those of us who have been around the block a few times can usually see the warning signs of the ones who are a mile away. Like we said some time back: this guy was not a moderate Muslim. Ever. But for someone who has never experienced this before, it can be a huge shock.

    I'm so glad you realized what was going on before it went too far, but I'm sorry that it wasn't the outcome you were hoping for. I think writing a letter will be a great thing for you to do just to get your feelings and everything off your chest, but I'm afraid that a single letter will likely not change a thing in his mind. I think a lot of us apostates had to struggle with doubt or with good evidence or arguments against Islam for a long time before we came around. It took about a year of constant arguing for there to be even the slightest breakthrough with my husband. It's just rough, and even if he seems to come around after the letter, he may as easily bounce back soon after, or worse, he manipulate you again by acting as though he received it well (for now).

    I think in the end, you'll go on to someone much better for you who will love and accept you as is, rather than as great starting material to shape into the woman he really wants. It's going to be better this way, trust me.  yes
  • How to point out problems in the Quran and what?
     Reply #18 - December 25, 2014, 04:26 AM
    Quote from: Nyd on December 25, 2014, 12:45 AM
    Thanks everyone! The past weeks have been hard. As some have guessed he got more extreme with time. He even hinted that he made himself "easier" to get to know me. In a way he kept things from me.

    It is very obvious now it is all a strategy. A few times it seemed he compromised with me. Like he let me go out and drink with friends like usual, but then had very extreme moments where he asked me to "accept his rules". I did not understand what he meant by it at first and when I tried to argue reasonable problems he got very weird and said I have no respect Huh?  Huh?
    I asked him to be honest and he then laid it all out....he wants a Muslim wife as traditional as they can be. Listen to all his "commands" basically or even sleep when he tells me to, I read up on it and everything he wants is in Islam. I don't agree with this type of relationship at all. I even think it is very unhealthy.

    I doubt he will come around or that there is a future for us. But I still want to summarize a damn good letter that will "show" him all the flaws in his religious ways because to me he is mislead and it I want to tell him what I honestly think. I assume he will look for someone else then. I doubt he is the kind of man that will apply common sense. He truly thinks this is the right way and all others are ignorant animals. He thinks a woman will not love him, cheat on him or leave him if he does not cage her and get her to obey him. Me saying no to this in his eyes means I don't love him. This is by far the craziest thing I have ever witnessed in life. I did not think Islam is that bad, but to me so many things are just horrible.




    Too bad that these were his true colors, but good thing you were able to spot them before getting in too deep. I don't know what I would contribute to your letter, other than mentioning all the inequality between the sexes mentioned in the Quran, and why you don't believe in that. I think you've done well in this situation.  Smiley
    Quote from: yeezevee on February 11, 2016, 02:05 PM
    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • How to point out problems in the Quran and what?
     Reply #19 - December 25, 2014, 07:31 AM
     I think it is unreasonable to expect one to convert to a religion for the sake of partner regardless of any negative or positive practices. You should remind him about the so-called no forced conversions “There is no compulsion in religion, the path of guidance stands out clear from error” [2:256]. Putting pressure on a loved one to convert due to their ideal "perfect" wife is a form of compulsion. It is using love to blackmail a person into a religious view not for their sake but for the loved one's sake. He wants you to be a traditional Muslim wife so is rejecting you for who you are. If he wants a traditional wife he should find a tradition Muslim, do not mold a person into one.
  • How to point out problems in the Quran and what?
     Reply #20 - December 26, 2014, 02:46 AM
    Quote from: lua on December 25, 2014, 04:05 AM
    Hey, sorry to hear that, Nyd.  far away hug

    I have moral objections to even the most liberal interpretations of Islam I've come across. Although, I do want to assure you that not all Muslims are going to be like this, but those of us who have been around the block a few times can usually see the warning signs of the ones who are a mile away. Like we said some time back: this guy was not a moderate Muslim. Ever. But for someone who has never experienced this before, it can be a huge shock.

    I'm so glad you realized what was going on before it went too far, but I'm sorry that it wasn't the outcome you were hoping for. I think writing a letter will be a great thing for you to do just to get your feelings and everything off your chest, but I'm afraid that a single letter will likely not change a thing in his mind. I think a lot of us apostates had to struggle with doubt or with good evidence or arguments against Islam for a long time before we came around. It took about a year of constant arguing for there to be even the slightest breakthrough with my husband. It's just rough, and even if he seems to come around after the letter, he may as easily bounce back soon after, or worse, he manipulate you again by acting as though he received it well (for now).

    I think in the end, you'll go on to someone much better for you who will love and accept you as is, rather than as great starting material to shape into the woman he really wants. It's going to be better this way, trust me.  yes


    Thank you lua! <3
    It really does seem like his strategy was to back off when things got too bad, only to try and convince me another time, while always saying "it is best for you and nice life" and shaming be for being too "prideful" or not confessing my sins (4 relationships)...like a religious brain washing.
    When I talked back he eventually got so upset he did not want to chat anymore. Then he said he did not want to talk at all until we "meet" and he stopped saying nice things. I did not understand but it was partly I think because he hates having a woman arguing with him and partly to get me to "behave"...like breaking  stubborn horse? That is my suspicion. If anyone understands this behavior please explain. It puzzles me. He was always bothered about me taking time to know him and not meeting him right away too. I never understood that either.

    He did also get more strict with time. It was horrible to witness a sweet and fun person, that would have long and interesting conversations, turn into an obsessively jealous and controlling man that only starts a chat to see if you are talking with other men.
    That had time to go out with friends every day, but 10 minutes of talking to me where too much.
    When I asked about these things he would say "when you are here and you are Muslim wife things will be different." Roll Eyes

    ☽Nyd byp nearu on breostan; weorpep hi peah oft nipa bearnum, to helpe and to haele gehwaere, gif hi his hlystap aeror.☾
    Trouble is oppressive to the heart;
    yet often it proves a source of help and salvation
    to the children of men, to everyone who heeds it betimes.
  • How to point out problems in the Quran and what?
     Reply #21 - December 26, 2014, 02:51 AM
    asbie

    I am thinking about how to best explain that. To him women are not equal. And while others will doubt it is god's word because of what it says about women, he will think god just thinks women are inferior.  lipsrsealed
    I think he really does want a little slave that caters to him all day and shuts up when told, follows all orders etc. How does he expect anyone to truly love him  with this treatment?

    Quote from: bogart on December 25, 2014, 07:31 AM
    I think it is unreasonable to expect one to convert to a religion for the sake of partner regardless of any negative or positive practices. You should remind him about the so-called no forced conversions “There is no compulsion in religion, the path of guidance stands out clear from error” [2:256]. Putting pressure on a loved one to convert due to their ideal "perfect" wife is a form of compulsion. It is using love to blackmail a person into a religious view not for their sake but for the loved one's sake. He wants you to be a traditional Muslim wife so is rejecting you for who you are. If he wants a traditional wife he should find a tradition Muslim, do not mold a person into one.


    Interesting. I did not know it said that. How ironic.
    ☽Nyd byp nearu on breostan; weorpep hi peah oft nipa bearnum, to helpe and to haele gehwaere, gif hi his hlystap aeror.☾
    Trouble is oppressive to the heart;
    yet often it proves a source of help and salvation
    to the children of men, to everyone who heeds it betimes.
  • Re: How to point out problems in the Quran and what?
     Reply #22 - December 26, 2014, 03:08 AM
    Quote from: bogart on December 25, 2014, 07:31 AM
    I think it is unreasonable to expect one to convert to a religion for the sake of partner regardless of any negative or positive practices. You should remind him about the so-called no forced conversions “There is no compulsion in religion, the path of guidance stands out clear from error” [2:256]. Putting pressure on a loved one to convert due to their ideal "perfect" wife is a form of compulsion.

    Yeah but come on Bogart, we all know the origin and accepted meaning of that verse, and it's nothing to do with religious tolerance. It's just presented that way for dawah/PR. Anyone who knows the slightest bit about it can rip the dawah/PR version to shreds.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • How to point out problems in the Quran and what?
     Reply #23 - December 26, 2014, 03:10 AM
    Quote from: Nyd on December 26, 2014, 02:46 AM
    When I asked about these things he would say "when you are here and you are Muslim wife things will be different." Roll Eyes

    Translation: "when you are here and you are Muslim wife things you will be different, or else."
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • How to point out problems in the Quran and what?
     Reply #24 - December 26, 2014, 03:23 AM
    I am so sorry Nyd. This is all typical in his culture. This is not the first man from that region that I have heard speaking of ¨breaking¨ a woman like a horse, to make her obedient. When a woman holds a man's honor, he must attempt to control her completely, as you said, even when to sleep. Because in his mind his honor is at risk if she is free to follow her own will.
    From his perception, a woman who leaves the house when she wants to/wears what she wants to/makes her own choices can ruin his reputation and that of his children. Affecting social standing and all that entails.
    I seriously would not even bother with writing a letter or trying to expose religious or logical flaws to him. Most men like that- at least the ones I have known, automatically discount everything a woman says that they do not agree with. Because they truly believe with every fibre of their being that women are weak and deficient in intelligence. Women argue back because they do not accept the wisdom of their betters, they have no control, feel instead of think, and that sort of trash. Who can argue with the perception that men are gods, when the man believes it? Like arguing with a drunk. Drunk on misogyny.
    Forget the closure and just run. You made it out alive, and I am so relieved for you and your child. 
    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • How to point out problems in the Quran and what?
     Reply #25 - December 26, 2014, 04:17 AM
    Quote from: Nyd on December 26, 2014, 02:51 AM
    asbie

    I am thinking about how to best explain that. To him women are not equal. And while others will doubt it is god's word because of what it says about women, he will think god just thinks women are inferior.  lipsrsealed
    I think he really does want a little slave that caters to him all day and shuts up when told, follows all orders etc. How does he expect anyone to truly love him  with this treatment?


    Not sure if he's really interested in that, tbh.
    Quote from: yeezevee on February 11, 2016, 02:05 PM
    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • How to point out problems in the Quran and what?
     Reply #26 - December 26, 2014, 07:08 AM
    Define "truly love".
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • How to point out problems in the Quran and what?
     Reply #27 - December 26, 2014, 08:32 AM
    Quote from: osmanthus on December 26, 2014, 03:08 AM
    Yeah but come on Bogart, we all know the origin and accepted meaning of that verse, and it's nothing to do with religious tolerance. It's just presented that way for dawah/PR. Anyone who knows the slightest bit about it can rip the dawah/PR version to shreds.

    Go on then. Nutshell version.

    I know it's been done on here countless times, but I forgotted the good think of my betters.
  • How to point out problems in the Quran and what?
     Reply #28 - December 26, 2014, 09:51 AM
    Some buggers (who were Muslim at the time this verse was made up) had sworn an oath to raise their kids as Jews. Mo didn't want them to, so "revealed" another in his long list of very-convenient-at-the-time verses, in which Allah declared that there should be "no compulsion in religion". In context, this meant the parents should not compel their kids to be Jews since Islam was obviously the true religion (ergo the bit about "the path of guidance stands out clear from error", where Islam is the former and "error" is any other religion) and it would be a bad thing to force your kids to be raised under a false religion.

    In other words, when originally "revealed" that verse was not a call for more religious diversity, but for less religious diversity (ie: keeping everyone Muslim).

    Furthermore, under Islamic jurisprudence it was interpreted in a particular manner. To reconcile the words of that verse with other inconveniently contradictory words elsewhere, which did advocate for compulsion (up to and including killing apostates, as well as "fighting the unbelievers wherever you find them) 2:256 was interpreted to mean that the authorities could not literally compel religious belief, so that inside your own head you could believe whatever you wanted to, but that this didn't contravene the right of the authorities to compel behaviour, so that the social and religious status quo could be maintained by force if necessary.

    This is without even getting into abrogation quandaries, which is a whole 'nother minefield.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • How to point out problems in the Quran and what?
     Reply #29 - December 26, 2014, 02:11 PM
    Quote from: osmanthus on December 26, 2014, 07:08 AM
    Define "truly love".


    It involves puppy dogs and roses, and smiley rainbows.  Tongue
    Quote from: yeezevee on February 11, 2016, 02:05 PM
    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
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