Skip navigation
Sidebar -

Advanced search options →

Welcome

Welcome to CEMB forum.
Please login or register. Did you miss your activation email?

Donations

Help keep the Forum going!
Click on Kitty to donate:

Kitty is lost

Recent Posts


Qur'anic studies today
Today at 08:44 PM

Lights on the way
by akay
Today at 04:40 PM

اضواء على الطريق ....... ...
by akay
Today at 12:50 PM

Do humans have needed kno...
Today at 04:17 AM

What's happened to the fo...
by zeca
Yesterday at 06:39 PM

New Britain
Yesterday at 05:41 PM

Do humans have needed kno...
Yesterday at 05:47 AM

Iran launches drones
April 13, 2024, 09:56 PM

عيد مبارك للجميع! ^_^
by akay
April 12, 2024, 04:01 PM

Eid-Al-Fitr
by akay
April 12, 2024, 12:06 PM

Mock Them and Move on., ...
January 30, 2024, 10:44 AM

Pro Israel or Pro Palesti...
January 29, 2024, 01:53 PM

Theme Changer

 Topic: "Barbaric", underdeveloped Medieval Europe?

 (Read 3969 times)
  • 1« Previous thread | Next thread »
  • "Barbaric", underdeveloped Medieval Europe?
     OP - November 21, 2014, 02:24 AM

    My hobby is Medieval Reenactment.
    My friend doesn't understand the fascination with it and says Europe in the Middle Ages was dark and barbaric. When talking I get the feeling he thinks the Islamic world was always far ahead, more advanced and sophisticated than Europe. All he sees about Medieval Europe is corruption and an underdeveloped society I feel.
    Of course the Middle Ages had not so nice things to them, but every culture has went through darker times at some point. And it matters what part and place one talks about when it comes to the Middle Ages...I mean Europe was/is big and not all the same.
    One example...we talked about the Vikings and when I told him what and advanced society of traders they also were, and that they traveled the silk road, he only stuck to the cliche of the pillaging viking  Huh?.
    He thinks the same about any Pagan traditions. As if it was just hell on earth in the early Middle Ages when Paganism was still practiced. When many types of Paganism were actually quite peaceful.
    He said he learned all that in College, so I wonder if Muslim schools can teach some sort of Propaganda?
    Has anyone made the experience and are there some good sources I can share with him? He is listening to what I am saying but skeptical because of what he was taught and thinks I must be misinformed.

    ☽Nyd byp nearu on breostan; weorpep hi peah oft nipa bearnum, to helpe and to haele gehwaere, gif hi his hlystap aeror.☾
    Trouble is oppressive to the heart;
    yet often it proves a source of help and salvation
    to the children of men, to everyone who heeds it betimes.
  • "Barbaric", underdeveloped Medieval Europe?
     Reply #1 - November 21, 2014, 04:26 AM

    Give him a hard time about the Turks not getting to Newfoundland. Afro

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • "Barbaric", underdeveloped Medieval Europe?
     Reply #2 - November 21, 2014, 09:18 AM

    My hobby is Medieval Reenactment.
    My friend doesn't understand the fascination with it and says Europe in the Middle Ages was dark and barbaric. When talking I get the feeling he thinks the Islamic world was always far ahead, more advanced and sophisticated than Europe. All he sees about Medieval Europe is corruption and an underdeveloped society I feel.
    Of course the Middle Ages had not so nice things to them, but every culture has went through darker times at some point. And it matters what part and place one talks about when it comes to the Middle Ages...I mean Europe was/is big and not all the same.
    One example...we talked about the Vikings and when I told him what and advanced society of traders they also were, and that they traveled the silk road, he only stuck to the cliche of the pillaging viking  Huh?.
    He thinks the same about any Pagan traditions. As if it was just hell on earth in the early Middle Ages when Paganism was still practiced. When many types of Paganism were actually quite peaceful.
    He said he learned all that in College, so I wonder if Muslim schools can teach some sort of Propaganda?
    Has anyone made the experience and are there some good sources I can share with him? He is listening to what I am saying but skeptical because of what he was taught and thinks I must be misinformed.


    Middle-age and pre-Middle age Europe are quite interesting. Some of the artefacts and archaeology from this era is quite staggeringly beautiful.

    Let me do a linkfest!

    This is an example from pre-Middle age Wales (Mold); the Mold gold cape. 1900-1600 BC



    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mold_cape

    and then you have Stonehenge - 3000 BC to 2000 BC



    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stonehenge

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3cAKbdC-jCw

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gLDvGGi8tMU

    Now medieval stuff which you were looking more for ...

    Sutton Hoo burial mound - 6th- and early 7th-century





    Sutton Hoo Helmet - Original and reconstruction



    The Great Buckle



    Shoulder Clasps



    Purse Clasp



    Ornate Gold Belt

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sutton_Hoo

    Video ...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWxcQZBM3eQ

    http://smarthistory.khanacademy.org/sutton-hoo-ship-burial.html

    A whole stream of info with lots of links

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_Ages



    The Bayeux Tapestry - slightly later than 1066 (Norman Conquest of British Isles)

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayeux_Tapestry
  • "Barbaric", underdeveloped Medieval Europe?
     Reply #3 - November 21, 2014, 09:27 AM

    I guess saying it's the same when Euopeans were convinced every other culture was barbaric and whatnot. Ethnocentrism and ignorance is not just a white thing.

    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • "Barbaric", underdeveloped Medieval Europe?
     Reply #4 - November 21, 2014, 11:47 AM

    Pretty much. Plus you have the Islamic thing about the supposed age of ignorance and barbarity in the middle east before Islam. Y'know, before Mohammed rocked up to teach them what real ignorance and barbarity was like. Wink So obviously, like obviously, Europe in the Dark Ages would have been far worse.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • "Barbaric", underdeveloped Medieval Europe?
     Reply #5 - November 22, 2014, 12:27 AM

    osmanthus

    Yeah he mentioned something about prophets, so I said since he was spoon fed with wisdom he should just be one himself...

    That is really how he talked. He could not even name any specifics about Medieval Europe, just that he "know" it was barbaric. It really baffled me.

    Maybe if these were religious teachers, it must be the ultimate truth?

    Give him a hard time about the Turks not getting to Newfoundland. Afro

    lol...maybe they were never taught about Leif Eriksson...

    I guess saying it's the same when Euopeans were convinced every other culture was barbaric and whatnot. Ethnocentrism and ignorance is not just a white thing.

    I just did not think that exists in modern Turkey!  lipsrsealed

    So does anyone know specifically what they are taught so I understand it better?

    Lilyesque
    Great links! I brought up arguments like that as well as architecture, art, alchemists, music, dance, court life...but he completely blew it off.
    He also seems to think of modern Europe (or the US) as problematic.

    ☽Nyd byp nearu on breostan; weorpep hi peah oft nipa bearnum, to helpe and to haele gehwaere, gif hi his hlystap aeror.☾
    Trouble is oppressive to the heart;
    yet often it proves a source of help and salvation
    to the children of men, to everyone who heeds it betimes.
  • "Barbaric", underdeveloped Medieval Europe?
     Reply #6 - November 22, 2014, 02:27 AM

    he only stuck to the cliche of the pillaging viking  Huh?.


    Pillaging huh? You should show him this hadith:


    Quote
    The Prophet (ﷺ) offered the Fajr Prayer near Khaibar when it was still dark and then said, "Allahu-Akbar! Khaibar is destroyed, for whenever we approach a (hostile) nation (to fight), then evil will be the morning for those who have been warned." Then the inhabitants of Khaibar came out running on the roads. The Prophet (ﷺ) had their warriors killed, their offspring and woman taken as captives. Safiya was amongst the captives, She first came in the share of Dahya Alkali but later on she belonged to the Prophet . The Prophet (ﷺ) made her manumission as her 'Mahr'.

    http://sunnah.com/bukhari/64/240

    He thinks the same about any Pagan traditions. As if it was just hell on earth in the early Middle Ages when Paganism was still practiced. When many types of Paganism were actually quite peaceful.
    He said he learned all that in College, so I wonder if Muslim schools can teach some sort of Propaganda?


    Yes they are taught that the Pagan Era was the "Age of Ignorance" (Jahiliya) and there was nothing good at all. Then Islam came along and taught people enlightenment and built the first universities and the first science and medicine, etc.
  • "Barbaric", underdeveloped Medieval Europe?
     Reply #7 - November 22, 2014, 03:53 AM

    I just did not think that exists in modern Turkey!  lipsrsealed

    Ok, that's cute.  grin12

    A lot of Turks are very ethnocentric. Just ask the Armenians and Kurds.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • "Barbaric", underdeveloped Medieval Europe?
     Reply #8 - November 22, 2014, 09:07 PM

    Toss in the rise nostalgia for the Islamic Caliphate based on revisionist history. It like taking to a senior complaining about the modern world while reminiscing about how great 1950 was. I think the fact is your friend knows next to nothing about history beside common religious rhetoric. Your friend will probably require a crash course in history to even take part in a dialogue in a constructive manner.
  • "Barbaric", underdeveloped Medieval Europe?
     Reply #9 - November 22, 2014, 09:09 PM

    Pillaging huh? You should show him this hadith:

    http://sunnah.com/bukhari/64/240

    Yes they are taught that the Pagan Era was the "Age of Ignorance" (Jahiliya) and there was nothing good at all. Then Islam came along and taught people enlightenment and built the first universities and the first science and medicine, etc.


    Great Info thank you!
    And that is exactly the feeling I get...he thinks Pagans were ignorant and so are modern Europeans...like they just haven't seen the light yet  Huh?

    osmanthus
    Maybe I was led to believe that because of the many modern Turks I have known in Germany and the US. In a way I thought there were far less ethnocentric people.

    ☽Nyd byp nearu on breostan; weorpep hi peah oft nipa bearnum, to helpe and to haele gehwaere, gif hi his hlystap aeror.☾
    Trouble is oppressive to the heart;
    yet often it proves a source of help and salvation
    to the children of men, to everyone who heeds it betimes.
  • "Barbaric", underdeveloped Medieval Europe?
     Reply #10 - November 22, 2014, 09:11 PM

    Toss in the rise nostalgia for the Islamic Caliphate based on revisionist history. It like taking to a senior complaining about the modern world while reminiscing about how great 1950 was. I think the fact is your friend knows next to nothing about history beside common religious rhetoric. Your friend will probably require a crash course in history to even take part in a dialogue in a constructive manner.


    Yeah the might be true...I was planning to send him some interesting pages on world history. He mentioned once that his parents sent him to a religious school and did not approve of him going to a less religious school at some point..

    ☽Nyd byp nearu on breostan; weorpep hi peah oft nipa bearnum, to helpe and to haele gehwaere, gif hi his hlystap aeror.☾
    Trouble is oppressive to the heart;
    yet often it proves a source of help and salvation
    to the children of men, to everyone who heeds it betimes.
  • "Barbaric", underdeveloped Medieval Europe?
     Reply #11 - November 22, 2014, 09:52 PM

    Yah better to pick a topic, give him a few books and let him read before starting a discussion. If he doesn't even have a basic education in a topic any conversation will be one sided. Beside it is not common for public education systems to teach history subjects which are far removed from the current nation in question. In Canada I learned little about Far East Asia since it had a minor impact on the nation now in comparison with Europe or the UK. I expect his homeland to be similar.
  • "Barbaric", underdeveloped Medieval Europe?
     Reply #12 - November 23, 2014, 12:21 AM

    The Time Traveler's Guide to Medieval England is enjoyable.
  • "Barbaric", underdeveloped Medieval Europe?
     Reply #13 - November 23, 2014, 08:13 AM

    Quote
    Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) said, "The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Turks; people with small eyes, red faces, and flat noses. Their faces will look like shields coated with leather. The Hour will not be established till you fight with people whose shoes are made of hair."

    Sahih Bukhari Book 56, Hadith 141

    The Hour = Judgment Day

    Also someone mentioned crash course Tongue

    Dark Ages:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QV7CanyzhZg

    Kind of off-topic, but nonetheless interesting regarding the Turks:

    Byzantines, Turks and Ottomans part I
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y1ptuspQIwQ

    Byzantines, Turks and Ottomans part II
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TWaTbmjj3jU

    Danish Never-Moose adopted by the kind people on the CEMB-forum
    Ex-Muslim chat (Unaffliated with CEMB). Safari users: Use "#ex-muslims" as the channel name. CEMB chat thread.
  • "Barbaric", underdeveloped Medieval Europe?
     Reply #14 - November 23, 2014, 10:20 AM

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKGVqXznpNU

    Anything by this member of Monty Python and all the time traveller series.

    And Michael Woods and dare I name Tom Holland....?

    Islam is of course a medieval invention!

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • "Barbaric", underdeveloped Medieval Europe?
     Reply #15 - November 23, 2014, 10:21 AM

    And don't forget the Albigensian Crusades!

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • "Barbaric", underdeveloped Medieval Europe?
     Reply #16 - November 23, 2014, 10:22 AM

    I understand (from BBC New Tricks) that the Roman Centurion's sandal is incredibly comfortable and good for long distance walking - is that right?

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • "Barbaric", underdeveloped Medieval Europe?
     Reply #17 - November 23, 2014, 11:29 AM

    A good book and an accompanying series is, the Adventure of English by Melvyn Bragg. It is all about the history of the English language and the varying influences over time on the English language, from the Vikings to Colonial India.

    http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Adventure-English-Melvyn-Bragg/dp/0340829931

    Quote
    The Adventure of English

    The Adventure of English is a British television series (ITV) on the history of the English language presented by Melvyn Bragg as well as a companion book, also written by Bragg.

    The series and the book are cast as an adventure story, or the biography of English as if it were a living being, covering the history of the language from its modest beginnings around 500 AD as a minor Germanic dialect to its rise as a truly established global language.

    In the television series, Bragg explains the origins and spelling of many words based on the times in which they were introduced into the growing language that would eventually become modern English.

    1. Birth of a Language. The modern Frisian language is the closest sounding language to the English used approximately 2000 years ago, when the people from what is now the north of the Netherlands travelled to what would be the United Kingdom and pushed the Celts to the western side of the island. Words like "blue" can be recognized in the Frisian language.

    2. English Goes Underground. Bragg discusses how class also affected the use of English, especially in the time of William the Conquerer and for approximately 300 years after his reign; during this period, only the French language and Latin were used in state affairs and by the aristocracy, while English remained in use with the lower peasant classes.

    3. The Battle for the Language of the Bible. In the early to mid 1300s, English fought to be the language of the Christian Bible through the efforts of theologian John Wycliffe, who opposed the church's use of a Latin scripture because it prevented most of the population from reading the bible for themselves.

    4. This Earth, This Realm, This England. In Queen Elizabeth I's time, English began to expand to even greater depths. Overseas trade brought new words from France, as well as the now popular swearwords "fokkinge," (fucking) "krappe," (crap) and "bugger" from Dutch, in the 16th century.

    5. English in America. Upon landing in North America, settlers encountered Squanto, a native man who had been captured and brought to England to learn English and become a guide. After escaping, Squanto returned to his tribe, which happened to live near the place that the English settlers had created their small village.

    6. Speaking Proper. The Age of Reason began, and English scholars of mathematics and science like Isaac Newton started publishing their books in English instead of Latin. Jonathan Swift would attempt to save the English language from perpetual change, followed by Samuel Johnson who would write the A Dictionary of the English Language, made up of 43000 words and definitions, written in seven years and published in 1755.

    7. The Language of Empire. British trade and colonization spread the English language. In India, scholar William Jones finds some English words already present in Sanskrit. Convicts land in Australia, blending London criminal slang and Aboriginal words into a new dialect. Jamaicans reclaim patois.

    8. Many Tongues Called English, One World Language. The globalisation of the English language in the 20th century owes most to the United States. Here we look at the predominance of American Black street talk, how the Second World War and American movies threatened to "infect" the mother tongue in Britain and how some nations are attempting to stamp in the invasion of English out - for example franglais in France and Singlish in Singapore.


    http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/adventure-of-english/

    Link to Youtube copy is on that link.
  • "Barbaric", underdeveloped Medieval Europe?
     Reply #18 - November 24, 2014, 09:57 PM

    Have you considered picking a timeline or topic outside of Europe? Maybe look at one of the Chinese Dynasties like the Song or Tang. A topic which neither of you know a lot about. Maybe this will break the rhetoric about Europe and create a dialogue. It could be better than a topic which you have knowledge about and he does not. It wouldn't be so much of a teaching exercise of you teaching him and correcting misconceptions. It would more about exploring a subject together.
  • "Barbaric", underdeveloped Medieval Europe?
     Reply #19 - November 24, 2014, 10:51 PM

    Now that's a damned good idea. Afro

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • 1« Previous thread | Next thread »