Skip navigation
Sidebar -

Advanced search options →

Welcome

Welcome to CEMB forum.
Please login or register. Did you miss your activation email?

Donations

Help keep the Forum going!
Click on Kitty to donate:

Kitty is lost

Recent Posts


Lights on the way
by akay
Today at 04:40 PM

Qur'anic studies today
by zeca
Today at 02:45 PM

اضواء على الطريق ....... ...
by akay
Today at 12:50 PM

Do humans have needed kno...
Today at 04:17 AM

What's happened to the fo...
by zeca
Yesterday at 06:39 PM

New Britain
Yesterday at 05:41 PM

Do humans have needed kno...
Yesterday at 05:47 AM

Iran launches drones
April 13, 2024, 09:56 PM

عيد مبارك للجميع! ^_^
by akay
April 12, 2024, 04:01 PM

Eid-Al-Fitr
by akay
April 12, 2024, 12:06 PM

Mock Them and Move on., ...
January 30, 2024, 10:44 AM

Pro Israel or Pro Palesti...
January 29, 2024, 01:53 PM

Theme Changer

 Topic: God as a Basic Belief

 (Read 5805 times)
  • 1« Previous thread | Next thread »
  • God as a Basic Belief
     OP - October 30, 2014, 06:56 PM

    I am taking a philosophy course at my Christian college. We have been reading the works of many Christian thinkers and it seems like nearly all of them seem to think that we all possess an innate belief in God whether or not we affirm it. The students in my class seem on board with this line of thinking. I know Islam has some sort of doctrine where it says we are all born with the belief in a God too.

    Obviously I do not accept that everyone has this belief and some just repress it. I remember learning about God when I was like 4 or 5 years old and being super confused with the concept. So some being was watching my actions at all times? Where was this being? Why can't I see it or talk to it? Throughout my childhood, I struggled to understand what the heck people were talking about when it comes to God.

    It seems to me that those heavily indoctrinated to hold religious beliefs have it so ingrained into them that a God exists that they can't possibly fathom how it could be to honestly not hold that belief. The way some of these people talk, its as if feeling the presence of God is exactly like using any of their other senses. So while we trust our senses such as seeing, hearing, and touch as the base axioms of our belief systems, their feeling of God seems just as real as anything else they see, feel, or touch. This seems so completely alien to me.

    The way I see it, if God actually existed and wanted people to believe in him, everyone would have this same innate perception of his existence. Some wouldn't strongly feel him while others tried their best but could feel nothing. On an alternative hypothesis, people who seem to "feel" God could just be feeling endorphins while worshiping or be predisposed to such a belief by genetic and environmental factors. Others, who aren't so predisposed and understand that what they are feeling is not supernatural would thus not have the same sense of God. It seems this second hypothesis fits the facts more plausibly and more parsimoniously. The first hypothesis I think raises many difficult questions such as why an omnipotent and omniscient god who demands belief would allow certain people no experience of itself. The simpler explanation is that this sense of God is not actually grounded in God's existence, but arises through natural phenomena.

    I can't take such arguments seriously because I know inside that I genuinely do not hold a belief in any sort of theistic god. To say that believing in God's existence is as innate as trusting my senses is absolutely preposterous to me. While I can try to debunk it rationally, honestly I know this argument is false from the get go because I apparently completely lack this sense. It seems to me to be just the same as any other presuppositionalist argument.

    Thoughts?

    "I moreover believe that any religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, cannot be a true system."
    -Thomas Paine
  • God as a Basic Belief
     Reply #1 - October 30, 2014, 09:19 PM

    These type of arguments can only have a hope of working on people who already belief in god. If you simply dont believe in god, then it doesn't matter if somebody wants to insist that theism is 'properly basic'.

    The idea of properly basic beliefs isn't actually too stupid, but its just obvious that god isn't one of those beliefs.  


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2ZPjd9J6vE
  • God as a Basic Belief
     Reply #2 - October 30, 2014, 10:47 PM

    From "My Ordeal..."

    Most people believe - in fact a number of great philosophers share this belief - that faith in God is a psychological need, a primeval instinct and intuition that cannot be doubted. The odd thing is that the Qur'an also is swept along by this claim and seeks to firmly entrench it as far as it can: "Is there doubt about God, the creator of the heavens and the earth?" (14:10)

    But in our opinion this belief is questionable. Because if knowledge of God was instinctive & intuitive, i.e. deeply rooted in our 'nafs' (being/soul) by 'fitrah' (the disposition we were created with) and nature, then there would be no need for proof to establish God's existence. For no-one would deny his existence, just as no one denies any other natural instincts.

  • God as a Basic Belief
     Reply #3 - October 30, 2014, 10:51 PM

     yes what Abbu Ali said

    And what you said, should solve the "natural belief in God" problem
    Quote
    It seems to me that those heavily indoctrinated to hold religious beliefs have it so ingrained into them that a God exists that they can't possibly fathom how it could be to honestly not hold that belief.

  • God as a Basic Belief
     Reply #4 - October 30, 2014, 11:00 PM

    Belief in god/gods has clearly served a purpose for man since early times, i.e. by helping face a frightening and brutal world in the belief the a God/gods were watching over him, would help him in battle, make his crops grow and if he died take him to some happy spirit-land. Belief in God also helped him explain stuff he didn't understand... God did it!

    But as Nietzsche pointed out, when he said "God is dead," - in this day and age we have done away with many of the primeval dangers, superstitions etc... and replaced them with science and reason and so belief in God no longer serves the important and central function it had in many pre-modern societies.
  • God as a Basic Belief
     Reply #5 - October 30, 2014, 11:36 PM

    Anatomically modern humans have existed for around 200,000 years. Behaviourally modern humans, around 160,000 years. The God of theism has existed for a mere few thousand years.

    No, we do not have an innate belief in God.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • God as a Basic Belief
     Reply #6 - October 30, 2014, 11:49 PM

    I think we have a need of some kind of sustaining narratives, rituals and myths. I just don't think monotheistic religion deserves to claim those aspects of human longing and imagination as being a validation of itself. That subsumes the mystery and ambiguity of being human into the certainty of monotheism. It is arrogant and goes against the need for myth and narrative to only say it belongs to it.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • God as a Basic Belief
     Reply #7 - October 31, 2014, 12:51 AM

    I think Dawkins explains it by pointing to how looking for purpose in things is a shortcut to knowing how to use things without really understanding how they work. Like you can use a cell phone easier if you know it is for calling people without knowing how it works on the micro level. So if we assume everything serves a certain function for us such as rain is a means to water crops and rocks are for climbing and search for patterns in the way things are, we can bypass learning about why things are the way they are if we assume they all serve a purpose for us and this is because God designed the world for us. Our pattern seeking carries with it a strong survival advantage.

    "I moreover believe that any religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, cannot be a true system."
    -Thomas Paine
  • God as a Basic Belief
     Reply #8 - November 30, 2014, 09:03 PM

    qtian, who is on a self-ban, asked me to post this here:

    Quote
    Divine hiddenness and the demographics of theism (PDF, 13 pages)

    STEPHEN MAITZEN
    Department of Philosophy, Acadia University, Wolfville, Nova Scotia B4P 2R6, Canada

    Abstract: According to the much-discussed argument from divine hiddenness, God’s existence is disconfirmed by the fact that not everyone believes in God. The argument has provoked an impressive range of theistic replies, but none has overcome – or, I suggest, could overcome – the challenge posed by the uneven distribution of theistic belief around the world, a phenomenon for which naturalistic explanations seem more promising. The ‘demographics of theism’ confound any explanation of why non-belief is always blameworthy or of why God allows blameless non-belief. They also cast doubt on the existence of a sensus divinitatis: the awareness of God that Reformed epistemologists claim is innate in all normal human beings. Finally, the demographics make the argument from divine hiddenness in some ways a better atheological argument than the more familiar argument from evil.


    Danish Never-Moose adopted by the kind people on the CEMB-forum
    Ex-Muslim chat (Unaffliated with CEMB). Safari users: Use "#ex-muslims" as the channel name. CEMB chat thread.
  • God as a Basic Belief
     Reply #9 - November 30, 2014, 10:07 PM

    Daniel Dennett explains that through evolution we have come to assign 'intentionality' to other creatures in order to survive (E.g. "That thing over there has stopped and is looking at me. Is it going to eat me? Should I run away?"). Combined with our experiences as babies (we cry and a magic person appears as if from nowhere to cuddle/comfort/feed us), it certainly makes us more susceptible to superstition. But does it make us innately god-believing? No.
  • God as a Basic Belief
     Reply #10 - December 17, 2014, 08:40 AM

    As I sometimes meet incredibly intelligent religious people, I have been beginning to wonder if certain people are more predisposed to believe in God. I'm certainly not one of them, but I don't understand the people that just insist that there "must be a God!" Can anyone help me in understanding these people? Any of you guys been there yourselves?

    I just want to be able to understand the mindset of some people close to me who are like this.

    "I moreover believe that any religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, cannot be a true system."
    -Thomas Paine
  • God as a Basic Belief
     Reply #11 - December 17, 2014, 10:22 AM

    In some people's case, they aren't open minded to the idea that there might be/is no god.
    It could also be part of them, something they grew up with and hold on to (the religion/god).
    Oh, and they are afraid of hell.

    Dogs never bite me - just humans. ~ M. Monroe

    Religions seem to cause more grief than good.

    Exmuslim Chat
  • God as a Basic Belief
     Reply #12 - January 09, 2015, 11:17 AM

    Divine hiddenness and the demographics of theism by Maitzen is my favourite challenge to God being a basic belief, i.e. sensus divinitatis/fitrah.


    http://philosophy.acadiau.ca/tl_files/sites/philosophy/resources/documents/Maitzen_Hiddenness.pdf

    Abstract: According to the much-discussed argument from divine hiddenness, God’s existence is disconfirmed by the fact that not everyone believes in God. The argument has provoked an impressive range of theistic replies, but none has overcome – or, I suggest, could overcome – the challenge posed by the uneven distribution of theistic belief around the world, a phenomenon for which naturalistic explanations seem more promising. The ‘demographics of theism’ confound any explanation of why non-belief is always blameworthy or of why God allows blameless non-belief. They also cast doubt on the existence of a sensus divinitatis: the awareness of God that Reformed epistemologists claim is innate in all normal human beings. Finally, the demographics make the argument from divine hiddenness in some ways a better atheological argument than the more familiar argument from evil.




    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • God as a Basic Belief
     Reply #13 - January 09, 2015, 11:23 AM

    Belief In God Is Not Properly Basic by Goetz is a decent paper too.



    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • God as a Basic Belief
     Reply #14 - August 21, 2015, 01:34 AM

    I don't know if anyone's heard of/followed the presuppositionalism of Sye Ten Brugencate and Eric Hovind which is a very confusing and dishonest brand of apologetics. However, I have enjoyed watching one the most sober and logically rigorous youtubers, Ozymandias Ramses II (one of his vids is embedded at the top of this page), countering this form of argumentation and more importantly giving important tutorials in the field of epistemology. I feel like watching his vids is like graduating to the next level of skepticism, which is all about rigorous critical thinking rather than axe-grinding atheist counter-apologetics

    This is his channel:
    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCmthjMiFTIQnkGyZvfQKBdA

    "I moreover believe that any religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, cannot be a true system."
    -Thomas Paine
  • God as a Basic Belief
     Reply #15 - August 21, 2015, 01:46 AM

    "god" is bullshit and human poop  if it is bullshit spread it on a farm as manure for plants and if it is human shit flush it down the toilet..  ...

    .......... this is what god of human brain does to human beings..

     











    that is what god of human brain is... A single  buffalo that fought and saved baby   buffalo  in this tube is better than such god of human brain..

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LU8DDYz68kM

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • God as a Basic Belief
     Reply #16 - August 21, 2015, 02:23 AM


     Cheesy

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • God as a Basic Belief
     Reply #17 - August 21, 2015, 09:58 AM

    I don't know if anyone's heard of/followed the presuppositionalism of Sye Ten Brugencate and Eric Hovind which is a very confusing and dishonest brand of apologetics. However, I have enjoyed watching one the most sober and logically rigorous youtubers, Ozymandias Ramses II (one of his vids is embedded at the top of this page), countering this form of argumentation and more importantly giving important tutorials in the field of epistemology. I feel like watching his vids is like graduating to the next level of skepticism, which is all about rigorous critical thinking rather than axe-grinding atheist counter-apologetics

    This is his channel:
    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCmthjMiFTIQnkGyZvfQKBdA



    Check out Carneades.org and his analysis of the presupp tactic.

    Better a Witty Fool (A Critique of Presuppositionalism): http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLz0n_SjOttTdN8F0zmt0Iz6cUq8FPGYib

    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • 1« Previous thread | Next thread »