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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1260 - January 03, 2017, 07:09 PM

    For any French speakers - Christian Robin on Arabian Christianity in the pre-Islamic period:
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jUr9JGmW7Ho
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Ncv8ZzvG1Tg
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1261 - January 05, 2017, 07:28 PM

    Gerald Hawting interviewed about John Wansbrough in 2002. I think there's agreement now that Wansbrough was mistaken in arguing for a late date for the Qur'an. Apart from that I'd say his approach holds up well.

    http://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/religionreport/john-wansbrough-remembered/3512288
    Quote
    One of the leading figures in the study of early Islam and the Koran, Professor John Wansbrough, died earlier this month. John Wansbrough was born in Illinois, studied languages at Harvard, and spent the whole of his academic career teaching at London University's School of Oriental and African Studies. He hypothesised that the Koran was actually compiled over a much longer period than had previously been thought. Dr Gerald Hawting was his colleague at the School of Oriental and African Studies, and he spoke to me about Wansbrough's ideas and how they have been taken up.

    He's best known for his work on the Koran, but that has to be seen in the context of his work on early Islam in general. He developed a sort of model of the emergence of Islam, and he sees the Koran as part and parcel of that emergence of Islam.

    Was he essentially bringing to bear the techniques that have been used in modern Bible scholarship for a very long time? Is that the most important thing he was doing?

    Yes, this is one of the features of his work. He was very much aware of what's been done in the study of the Bible, and indeed of early Christianity and early Christian text, and he argued that those approaches could be applied to the Koran as well.

    What did he end up arguing about the Koran? I gather the key thing was that it wasn't produced I guess all of a piece, if you like, and lowered down from heaven to the prophet Mohammed.

    Yes, well of course Western scholars never really accepted that anyway. Non-believers of course have never seen the Koran as a revelation from God, although they could in a sense identify to the Revelation, but that would be stretching the idea of Revelation somewhat, and certainly it wouldn't be the same as what Muslims understand by Revelation of the Koran.

    And so where was Wansbrough's work new?

    Well even Western scholars who don't talk of Revelation nevertheless have always associated the Koran with Mohammed, following Muslim tradition, they've agreed that the Koran was not put together in the lifetime of Mohammed, that they see it as being put into the form in which we know it and its being the most important Islamic text from about 30 years after Mohammed's death. And the materials in it have always been seen by Western scholars and by Muslims as originating in the lifetime of Mohammed, and very closely associated with the events of Mohammed's life. Now Wansbrough tried to break that link between Mohammed and the Koranic materials.

    And argue that the Koran had been compiled over a very long period, and that in fact it even possibly wasn't known to the first generation of Muslims?

    Yes, sure. There is evidence from about 70 years after Mohammed's death in the Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem, of some of the texts that are a part of the Koran, but Wansbrough's view is that the Koran as we know it was gradually pieced together, and as I said at the beginning, he saw this process of piecing it together, the formation of a Muslim Scripture, of part and parcel of the emergence of Islam, the growing up of a new religion with its own identity.

    And the importance of Jewish and Christian sources was one of the issues that he embraced?

    Oh yes. I mean anybody who reads the Koran is immediately aware of this, that the Koran contains references to individuals and stories which Jews and Christians maybe not today, but probably Jews and Christians of the time, would have known about. The significant thing that he picked out was that the Koran seems to assume that the readers know these stories, it doesn't tell these stories as if it's talking to people who are ignorant of them, it's using these stories to make moral and religious points, and assuming that the people already know the details of the stories.

    Another important book he wrote was The Sectarian Milieu in 1978, and there he really looks at the way that Islam develops after the Arab conquests of the Holy Land in the mid-7th century and so on, and emerged in a period as sort of intense debates over religion between Christians and Jews. Does that actually in the end leave him to conclude that the whole early traditional history of Islam is perhaps fabricated in some way? Does he go that far?

    No, he wouldn't say fabricated, that's not a word that he would have used. But all religions, all communities have their own myths, their own ways of looking at history, and he saw Muslim accounts of Islam's origins as reflecting the way that later Muslims understood the origins of their religion and their tradition.

    Is one of the problems that we're dealing with a period where sources other than traditional Islamic sources are very, very sketchy indeed?

    Well yes, but also traditional Islamic sources, and this is one of Wansbrough's fundamental starting points. We don't really have any Islamic literature that you can really date much before about 800 AD. OK, those sources are drawing on earlier reports and earlier traditions, but Wansbrough was always saying you start from when you have the text in a datable form, and they're very late.

    Gerald, did he have a particular picture of the prophet Mohammed himself as a result of his work on the Koran?

    No, he never as far as I know, commented on the historical Mohammed. I mean he would draw the line in saying that all we can know is the images of Mohammed that Islam itself created.

    That would be actually very close to the situation that Christians have with Jesus.

    Yes of course, yes.

    You would expect his views to be controversial amongst Muslims, but are they in fact controversial amongst Western academics as well?

    Yes, they are. It's difficult to see quite why they are controversial, because they're so much in the mainstream of religious studies I suppose in the ways that people have studied Judaism and Christianity. You have the feeling that sometimes scholars of Islam are very loath to take Islam seriously, and to study it in the same way that they study the other monotheistic religions. I'm not quite sure why that is, maybe something psychological, I don't know.

    Perhaps because it's dangerous?

    I don't think many of them are worried in any sort of physical sense. It's just that I suppose a desire not to offend, a sympathy for Muslims in the modern world, the predicaments that they say from things like that. So you find a lot of drawing back I think in academic approaches to Islam. Wansbrough always insisted that if you take Islam seriously then you've got to study it seriously as well.

    Has his kind of historical critical method been taken up anywhere in the Islamic world?

    There are one or two scholars who I don't think have been influenced directly by Wansbrough, but there are certainly some scholars who are prepared to talk of the Koran as they would talk of other texts. The famous case is Nasser Abu Zaid, the Egyptian, who had to leave Egypt because of his views about the Koran.

    Just finally then, what will his lasting impact be on Islamic studies do you think?

    It depends of course. In all academic fields it takes time for models and ideas to establish themselves, and we can't really tell. Looking at the history of Islam, the way people have studied the history of Islam over the past 150 years, you see a sort of to-ing and fro-ing, an ebbing and flowing if you like, of the tide. Someone will come up with ideas and make a big breakthrough, and then over time people fall back into old ways until somebody else comes and says, Hang on a minute, shouldn't we be starting from this previous position? Now I suspect that's going to happen here as well.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1262 - January 06, 2017, 10:44 AM

    From the same conference - a talk by Christian Robin on pre-Islamic calendars.
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hkETKNWUQqg


    wow, the inscription without ALLAH, just bismi elrahman alrahim, fascinating indeed
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1263 - January 06, 2017, 11:03 AM

     there is an interesting discussion going on right now on academia

    TWO ‘LOST’ SŪRAS OF THE QURʾĀN: SŪRAT AL-KHALʿ AND SŪRAT

    it seems the extreme skepticism is not warranted,  yes we don't know much about mecca but the general frameworks of Islamic history has some kind of historical truth, for me personally, I am very interesting in the abraha's piste his christology is quite similar to the Quran
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1264 - January 06, 2017, 01:07 PM

    there is an interesting discussion going on right now on academia

    TWO ‘LOST’ SŪRAS OF THE QURʾĀN: SŪRAT AL-KHALʿ AND SŪRAT  

     
    The lost surahs..
    what lost surahs??
     the Surat Al-Kahl  and
     Surat Al-Hafd  you fool
    Oh!  They are word of Allah..The God?
    Are they also Text from  God?
    The ritual songs and sonnets of Arabic God?
    Yes..Yesss. indeed along with 114 surahs
    they are all from allahgod
    the book should be 116 chapters
    says the Academic.. the religious academic professor  
    hatoush becomes believer  
    and  trusts Academics of 21st century
    on words of allah.. the sounds of allah
    Should I also believe ??
    Should I also trust ??
    Nah...na....na...
    Fools become professors
    in Academics...
    Oh well it is life.....human life

    Quote
    it seems the extreme skepticism is not warranted,  yes we don't know much about mecca but the general frameworks of Islamic history has some kind of historical truth, for me personally, I am very interesting in the abraha's piste his christology is quite similar to the Quran

    what is general frameworks of Islamic history  and where do we start the Islamic history  dear hatoush...

    Quote
    545: Birth of Abdullah, the Holy Prophet's father.
    571: Birth of the Holy Prophet. Year of the Elephant. Invasion of Makkah by Abraha the Viceroy of Yemen, his retreat.
    577: The Holy Prophet visits Madina with his mother. Death of his mother.
    580: Death of Abdul Muttalib, the grandfather of the Holy Prophet.
    583: The Holy Prophet's journey to Syria in the company of his uncle Abu Talib. His meeting with the monk Bahira at Bisra who foretells of his prophethood.
    586: The Holy Prophet participates in the war of Fijar.
    591: The Holy Prophet becomes an active member of "Hilful Fudul", a league for the relief of the distressed.
    594: The Holy Prophet becomes the Manager of the business of Lady Khadija, and leads her trade caravan to Syria and back.
    595: The Holy Prophet marries Hadrat Khadija. .
    605: The Holy Prophet arbitrates in a dispute among the Quraish about the placing of the Black Stone in the Kaaba.
    610: The first revelation in the cave at Mt. Hira. The Holy Prophet is commissioned as the Messenger of God.
    613: Declaration at Mt. Sara inviting the general public to Islam.

    614: Invitation to the Hashimites to accept Islam.
    615: Persecution of the Muslims by the Quraish. A party of Muslims leaves for Abyssinia.
    616: Second Hijrah to Abysinnia.
    617: Social boycott of the Hashimites and the Holy Prophet by the Quraish. The Hashimites are shut up in a glen outside Makkah.
    619: Lifting of the boycott. Deaths of Abu Talib and Hadrat Khadija. Year of sorrow.
    620: Journey to Taif. Ascension to the heavens.
    621: First pledge at Aqaba.
    622: Second pledge at Aqaba. The Holy Prophet and the Muslims migrate to Yathrib.
    623: Nakhla expedition.
    624: Battle of Badr. Expulsion of the Bani Qainuqa Jews from Madina.
    625: Battle of Uhud. Massacre of 70 Muslims at Bir Mauna. Expulsion of Banu Nadir Jews from Madina. Second expedition of Badr.
    626: Expedition of Banu Mustaliq.
    627: Battle of the Trench. Expulsion of Banu Quraiza Jews.
    628: Truce of Hudaibiya. Expedition to Khyber. The Holy Prophet addresses letters to various heads of states.
    629: The Holy Prophet performs the pilgrimage at Makkah. Expedition to Muta (Romans).
    630: Conquest of Makkah. Battles of Hunsin, Auras, and Taif.
    631: Expedition to Tabuk. Year of Deputations.
    632: Farewell pilgrimage at Makkah.
    632: Death of the Holy Prophet.Election of Hadrat Abu Bakr as the Caliph. Usamah leads expedition to Syria. Battles of Zu Qissa and Abraq. Battles of Buzakha, Zafar and Naqra. Campaigns against Bani Tamim and Musailima, the Liar.
    632: Death of the Holy Prophet.Election of Hadrat Abu Bakr as the Caliph.   Usamah leads expedition to Syria. Battles of Zu Qissa and Abraq. Battles of Buzakha, Zafar and Naqra. Campaigns against Bani Tamim and Musailima, the Liar.
    633: Campaigns in Bahrain, Oman, Mahrah Yemen, and Hadramaut. Raids in Iraq. Battles of Kazima, Mazar, Walaja, Ulleis, Hirah, Anbar, Ein at tamr, Daumatul Jandal and Firaz.
    634: Battles of Basra, Damascus and Ajnadin. Death of Hadrat Abu Bakr. Hadrat Umar Farooq becomes the Caliph. Battles of Namaraq and Saqatia.
    635: Battle of Bridge. Battle of Buwaib. Conquest of Damascus. Battle of Fahl.
    636: Battle of Yermuk. Battle of Qadsiyia. Conquest of Madain.
    637: Conquest of Syria. Fall of Jerusalem. Battle of Jalula.
    638: Conquest of Jazirah.
    639: Conquest of Khuizistan. Advance into Egypt.
    640: Capture of the post of Caesaria in Syria. Conquest of Shustar and Jande Sabur in Persia. Battle of Babylon in Egypt.
    641: Battle of Nihawand. Conquest Of Alexandria in Egypt.
    642: Battle of Rayy in Persia. Conquest of Egypt. Foundation of Fustat.
    643: Conquest of Azarbaijan and Tabaristan (Russia).
    644: Conquest of Fars, Kerman, Sistan, Mekran and Kharan.[/u] Martyrdom of Hadrat Umar. Hadrat Othman becomes the Caliph.
    645: Campaigns in Fats.
    646: Campaigns in Khurasan, Armeain and Asia Minor.
    647: Campaigns in North Africa. Conquest of the island of Cypress.
    648: Campaigns against the Byzantines.
    651: Naval battle of the Masts against the Byzantines.
    652: Discontentment and disaffection against the rule of Hadrat Othman.
    656: Martyrdom of Hadrat Othman. Hadrat Ali becomes the Caliph. Battle of the Camel.
    657: Hadrat Ali shifts the capital from Madina to Kufa. Battle of Siffin. Arbitration proceedings at Daumaut ul Jandal.
    658: Battle of Nahrawan.
    659: Conquest of Egypt by Mu'awiyah.
    660: Hadrat Ali recaptures Hijaz and Yemen from Mu'awiyah. Mu'awiyah declares himself as the Caliph at Damascus.
    661: Martyrdom of Hadrat Ali. Accession of Hadrat Hasan and his abdication. Mu'awiyah becomes the sole Caliph.


    Does Islamic history  start with the years 571: Birth of the Holy Prophet. Year of the Elephant. Invasion of Makkah by Abraha??

    or Does it   start with the year 661 where Mu'awiyah becomes the sole Caliph?

    or  does it start with ISIS  Caliph Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi Amrikee  in the year xxxx

    Oh well  let me  read this http://bible-quran.com/response-james-white-ibn-masud/

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1265 - January 06, 2017, 05:52 PM

    there is an interesting discussion going on right now on academia

    TWO ‘LOST’ SŪRAS OF THE QURʾĀN: SŪRAT AL-KHALʿ AND SŪRAT

    it seems the extreme skepticism is not warranted,  yes we don't know much about mecca but the general frameworks of Islamic history has some kind of historical truth, for me personally, I am very interesting in the abraha's piste his christology is quite similar to the Quran

    Yes, that's interesting - thanks for pointing it out. As far as how much scepticism is warranted I'm fairly agnostic on this, though it seems clear at least that there was a historical Muhammad based in Yathrib/Medina and that the Qur'an is a relatively early (mid-7th century) text. Going beyond this I find it hard to feel much certainty. It does look like Abraha's and the Qur'an's christology are related in some way (discussed by Carlos Segovia here).
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1266 - January 06, 2017, 10:12 PM

    i am copying one of the replies by Andreas Goerke

    Dear Jerome, I had thought that we had moved beyond this kind of radical scepticism. While we indeed have very little secure knowledge about the life of Muhammad (and almost nothing about Mecca), it is not true that we don't know anything. The so-called 'Constitution of Medina' is accepted as an early document even by the most ardent scepticists, and this contains lots of references to Jews in Yathrib (and as far as I know, nobody has ever questioned that Yathrib indeed became Medina). There are also a number of early non-Muslim references to Muhammad and Islam, one possibly even dating to the lifetime of Muhammad or very shortly thereafter. Thus the existence of Muhammad can hardly be doubted. The broad outline of the early history of Islam (but not necessary many of the details) has likewise a rather good claim to authenticity: from the time we have written sources, we know that the community had split in several political and religious factions who were fighting each other. How could an invented history (which must have been promoted by one of these factions) be accepted by all these groups? And this in a huge geographic area? Despite all the differences these groups had, despite all the rebellions, they nevertheless agreed on a common history, a common holy text, and common rituals? How could this possibly work in practice? Yes, we have to be careful when we read the history of religion through the sources of this religion. But this is what historians do all the time - not only in matters of religion. It is often possible to retrieve factual data from biased sources, even without external confirmation. This is not to say that the debate about whether there was an Uthmanic codex or not is not justified - it certainly is. But this debate must be based on the available data, even if this is biased. Any position should be able to make sense of the available data and provide some explanation of how this came into being, why it looks the way it does and why it has been recorded and passed down. There may be arguments for or against a position, but completely rejecting evidence because it may be biased (and not explaining its existence and form) is not a viable solution. Best regards, Andreas
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1267 - January 07, 2017, 07:08 AM

    i am copying one of the replies by  Andreas Goerke

    ...................................

    dear  hatoush   when it comes to exploring the facts of personalities in early  islamic period i will trust no one until all questions are answered..   So neither dr.  Andreas Goerke  is unquestionable nor what i am saying is unquestionable....  and I   say this

    Quote
    The so-called 'Constitution of Medina' is accepted as an early document even by the most ardent scepticists, and this contains lots of references to Jews in Yathrib (and as far as I know, nobody has ever questioned that Yathrib indeed became Medina)

     is nonsense.,   just because that alleged constitution of Madina/Yathrib  contains lots of references to Jews doesn't mean Muhammad ..the preacher of early Quran is the same character that is present in the book of Abū Jaʿfar Muḥammad ibn Jarīr al-Ṭabarī  (224–310 AH; 839–923 AD)  
     from which    most of the Muhammad  stories including that  so-called  Constitution of Medina'  is same as  Madnia Muhammad cartoon  Character ....

    any ways let me make questions on assumptions of Andreas Goerke  response...

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1268 - January 07, 2017, 10:24 AM

    Yes, that's interesting - thanks for pointing it out. As far as how much scepticism is warranted I'm fairly agnostic on this, though it seems clear at least that there was a historical Muhammad based in Yathrib/Medina and that the Qur'an is a relatively early (mid-7th century) text. Going beyond this I find it hard to feel much certainty. It does look like Abraha's and the Qur'an's christology are related in some way (discussed by Carlos Segovia here).


    Zeca

    I have been following this site since two years, all I want is just to have a mental image of what possible may happen, I was never convinced either by the traditional Islamic narrative, nor by radical revisionists, watching Christian Robin was like a "revelation" to me,  he manage to connect the dots,  using archaeological and written documentation,  the christology of the Quran was there in pre-Islamic Arabia, no need for an out of Arabia model,  for some reasons, people living in south Arabia managed to develop their own interpretation of Judaism and Christianity , it was not some informants telling stories to an ignorant Muhammad.

    I think we all agree that there is no point in trying to reconstruct Historical Muhammed, but understanding the religious milieu of Arabia in the  6 and 7th centuries is very important, and i think researchers are making progress.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1269 - January 07, 2017, 10:51 AM

    .............  the christology of the Quran was there in pre-Islamic Arabia, no need for an out of Arabia model,  for some reasons, people living in south Arabia managed to develop their own interpretation of Judaism and Christianity , it was not some informants telling stories to an ignorant Muhammad...........

    well there is no proof that stories were told to arab pagans and  i can tell you this, there was no Ignorant Muhammad in the  history of early islam.. only brainless ignorants imagine/preach/teach  that there was  Ignorant illiterate Prophet  Muhammad(PBUH) in islam..


    I think we all agree that there is no point in trying to reconstruct Historical Muhammed, but ..

    well i don't agree with that.,why not? why one should not reconstruct real Historical Muhammad hatoush ?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-dlXCrpKTt0

    I think you should watch that 1 hr video   and carefully listen to what that wonderful explorer of history of Islam dr. Patricia Crone saying..

    well  this is a good question to answer....

    Did an alleged "Arabian Prophet" with the alleged 'name' of "Muhammad" actually exist, or is this really a Juicey Judaic  Roman deception?

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1270 - January 07, 2017, 11:31 AM

    yezever  no one can prove a negative, 

    as for dr. Patricia Crone with all respects to the fact that she ignited the Islamic research, her major thesis was proved wrong.

    look, as an Arabic native speaker, when i read the Quran as literally book, i can not believe the author(s) is an illiterate,

    https://www.academia.edu/8811286/Qur%CA%BE%C4%81nic_umm%C4%AB_Genealogy_Ethnicity_and_the_Foundation_of_a_New_Community_Jerusalem_Studies_in_Arabic_and_Islam_43_2016_pp._1-60_
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1271 - January 07, 2017, 11:44 AM

    yezever no one can prove a negative,  

    as for dr. Patricia Crone with all respects to the fact that she ignited the Islamic research, her major thesis was proved wrong.

    that is OK what  is wrong in proving someone wrong ?   By proving  wrong on some hypothesis is the way to improve the facts in the subject  .,and I like that name   yezever .. Cheesy

    Quote
    look, as an Arabic native speaker, when i read the Quran as literally book, i can not believe the author(s) is an illiterate,

    https://www.academia.edu/8811286/Qur%CA%BE%C4%81nic_umm%C4%AB_Genealogy_Ethnicity_and_the_Foundation_of_a_New_Community_Jerusalem_Studies_in_Arabic_and_Islam_43_2016_pp._1-60_

    well  i too don't believe that  the author(s) of Quran are  illiterate  dear hatoush .. did  dr. Patricia Crone  say that??  I will be  surprised to read that ...  Please give direct link of her publication on that ..

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1272 - January 07, 2017, 12:55 PM

    Yeezevee, please can you just pretend I did not post anything, let's keep this section of the forum, only for posting new research materials.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1273 - January 07, 2017, 01:31 PM

    Yeezevee, please can you just pretend I did not post anything, let's keep this section of the forum, only for posting new research materials.

    that is fair hatoush., i will delete the responses i posted in this folder and  i will not post anything further here,  in fact  the way I write paid academics in religious department gets upset..

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1274 - January 08, 2017, 09:03 PM

    Carlos Segovia - Discussing/Subverting Paul: Polemical Re-readings and Competing Supersessionist Misreadings of Pauline Inclusivism in Late Antiquity: A Case Study on the Apocalypse of Abraham, Justin Martyr, and the Qur'ān

    https://www.academia.edu/1905994/Discussing_Subverting_Paul_Polemical_Re-readings_and_Competing_Supersessionist_Misreadings_of_Pauline_Inclusivism_in_Late_Antiquity_A_Case_Study_on_the_Apocalypse_of_Abraham_Justin_Martyr_and_the_Qurān_2014_Conference_Paper_Book_Chapter
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1275 - January 09, 2017, 01:05 AM

    Thanks Zeca, Carlos Segovia is always interesting.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1276 - January 09, 2017, 09:22 AM

    i was reading some papers from Christian robin ( sorry all in french), this is gold, it seems a lot of "Islamic" words and practice were well know and have archaeological inscription, Rahamn, Jesus as the messiah, SLT (prayer), zkt ( giving to the poor),  Mihrab Smiley, even the practice of killing girls in some tribes alluded in the quran reflect pre Islamic practice ,  it seems monotheist inscription started to spread across Arabia  from the 4th century.   
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1277 - January 11, 2017, 06:14 PM

    Alba Fedeli and Shady Nasser - The Quranic Text in the Formative Period of Islam
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=ark_yjAejj8
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1278 - January 13, 2017, 05:21 PM



    https://www.amazon.com/Text-Context-Arif-Mohammed-Khan/dp/8129116820

    Quote
    Text and Context: Quran and Contemporary Challenges is a compilation of Arif Mohammed Khan s thought-provoking articles published in various newspapers and magazines. It is a comprehensive understanding of the Message and Spirit of Quran and Prophetic Traditions. Passionately written, the author makes a sincere effort to examine Islamic philosophy with references to Islamic classics and explain the essence of Islam.

     The book is a fascinating journey into the archives mix of Islamic history and contemporary issues which the author feels strongly about and which intrigue his mind. His arguments and logic are strongly rooted in the wisdom of the ancients.


    that seems to be an  interesting book to read . just read some snippets  at  https://www.amazon.com/Text-Context-Arif-Mohammed-Khan/dp/8129116820

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1279 - January 13, 2017, 05:50 PM

    Abstract only for a talk by Segovia. The talk itself hasn't been uploaded.

    Carlos Segovia - Re-Imagining the Rise of Islam in the 7th Century: A New Hypothesis

    https://www.academia.edu/9155361/Re-Imagining_the_Rise_of_Islam_in_the_7th_Century_A_New_Hypothesis_2015_
    Quote
    The rise of Islam is commonly presented as a struggle for monotheism against polytheism, as though the inhabitants of the Arabian peninsula were pagans in their majority. Accordingly references to Judaism and Christianity in the Qur’ān are seen as witnessing to Muḥammad’s contacts with the Jews and Christians of the Ḥiǧāz – these being represented as two groups different from the early Muslim group right from the start. Against this prevailing view I will try to show that the Sassanian subduing of Ḥimyar in 565, the power thereby regained by its opponents (the pagans and the Jews of South- and Western Arabia), and the subsequent Sassanian invasion of the Near East in 612 paved the way to a Christian restoration programme with Anomoean overtones that was led among others by Muḥammad; and that it was only in the second half of the 7th century that “Islam” gradually distanced itself from Christianity, thus becoming a new religion sometime between 692 and 715. This hypothesis is at odds with the traditional account of Islam’s origins, but it better fits in my view the formation of late-antique religious identities, which usually undergoes a complex threefold process: (1) unclear dissemination of more or less vague identity markers against a brewing background of common ideas and practices, (2) re-dissemination of such markers along new ad hoc but still fuzzy lines or axes of crystallisation, and (3) the final promotion and consolidation of these.


    I had to look up Anomoeanism: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anomoeanism
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1280 - January 14, 2017, 12:17 AM

    Patricia Crone - The Rise of Islam in the World

    http://people.ucls.uchicago.edu/~cjuriss/ModernWorld/Documents/Jurisson-UNIT-3-The-Rise-of-Islam-in-the-World.pdf
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1281 - January 17, 2017, 05:24 PM

    Nicolai Sinai - The Unknown Known: Some Groundwork for Interpreting the Medinan Qur’an

    https://www.academia.edu/30956035/_The_Unknown_Known_Some_Groundwork_for_Interpreting_the_Medinan_Qur_an_Mélanges_de_lUniversité_Saint-Joseph_66_2015_2016_47_96
    Quote
    As scholars have now amply demonstrated, the Qur’anic corpus exhibits firm links with a multitude of late antique traditions. Especially Syriac literature, which has been mined with renewed vigour over the course of the last decade or so, has turned out to be a veritable wellspring of intersecting material that appears far from running dry.1 Its relevance is not confined to miscellaneous narratives but extends to Qur’anic eschatology, which constitutes the very epicentre of at least parts of the Qur’an.2 In keeping with such findings, the Qur’an is now increasingly being described as a “text of late antiquity,” as the title of a recent monograph puts it.3 This novel placement of the Qur’an is sometimes accompanied by an emphasis on “the struggles of the classical mufassirūn to understand significant elements of the Qur’ān,”4 suggesting that even the earliest layer of the Islamic tradition approaches the Qur’an from across a significant cultural and linguistic gap. Hence, quite irrespective of whether or not one accepts the traditional dating and localisation of the Qur’an’s emergence, it may well seem that the Qur’anic corpus is a text that, properly understood, is more solidly anchored in the world of late antiquity rather than belonging with the subsequent Islamic tradition, despite the latter’s highly creative and sophisticated efforts at exegetical appropriation. The Qur’an, so it might appear, is a text that precedes Islam as we know it, and Islam a post-Qur’anic phenomenon.

    I do not wish to dispute either the Qur’an’s close connection to late antique, in particular Syriac, literature nor the view that a historical-critical understanding of specific Qur’anic passages must resolutely resist the temptation of projecting onto them later Islamic narratives and lexical explanations, which may well be products of popular storytelling, interpretive guesswork, or an attempt to harness scripture to certain theological and legal agendas.5 Yet it is worth counterbalancing all of this by insisting on the Qur’an’s significant continuities with classical Islam....


    See appendix 1 for a critical discussion of Fred Donner's views on the Believers' movement.

    Edit: some comments from Zimriel on his blog: http://zimriel.blogspot.co.uk/2017/01/groundwork-nicolai-sinai-has-uploaded.html
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1282 - January 17, 2017, 08:20 PM

    Nicolai Sinai - The Eschatological Kerygma of the Early Qur’an

    https://www.academia.edu/19225122/_The_Eschatological_Kerygma_of_the_Early_Qur_an_forthcoming_in_Apocalypticism_and_Eschatology_in_the_Abrahamic_Religions_6th_8th_cent._C.E._edited_by_Hagit_Amirav_Emmanouela_Grypeou_and_Guy_Stroumsa_Leuven_Peeters_uncorrected_authors_typescript_
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1283 - January 18, 2017, 12:16 PM

    This podcast is definitely worth listening to, both for itself and for considering the obvious parallels with Qur'anic, Islamic and Arab origins.

    Francesca Stavrakopoulou talking to Dan Snow about the Bible: https://mobile.twitter.com/thehistoryguy/status/821405235973357568

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1284 - January 18, 2017, 03:22 PM

    An article about trying to understand the context of Syriac Christian texts that may have parallels with attempts to understand the context of the Qur'an.

    Philip Michael Forness on his dissertation - Preaching and Religious Debate: Jacob of Serugh and the Promotion of His Christology in the Roman Near East

    http://www.ancientjewreview.com/articles/2017/1/10/dissertation-spotlight-philip-michael-forness
    Quote
    I seek to answer questions about the homiletical literature in general by focusing on these texts within Syriac literature. Syriac homilies from late antiquity provoke an exploration of the possibility of using sermons without a defined context as historical texts. Around seven hundred homilies authored in Syriac survive from the fourth through sixth centuries. Yet most have resisted efforts to identify their dates, locations, and liturgical settings. By attending to these texts, we are forced to confront the difficulty of interpreting the seemingly de-contextualized remains of most sermons from late antiquity.

    Quote
    We need to understand the extensive editorial process of homilies before we can use them as sources for social history. Late antique preachers delivered sermons in a variety of liturgical settings. Scribes in the Greek and Latin worlds recorded their words through the development of shorthand. Preachers and others edited these homilies as texts for circulation. Individuals and communities then gathered these edited homilies into collections organized around the biblical text and on specific topics or as the literary corpora of major figures. Homilies that survive from late antiquity bear some relationship to texts preached within liturgical settings during late antiquity. But we also need to account for the imprint that their circulation in late antique manuscripts has left on them.


    Edit: Philip Forness on academia.edu: https://goethe-university-frankfurt.academia.edu/PhilipForness

    Dissertation abstract: https://www.academia.edu/24899036/Preaching_and_Religious_Debate_Jacob_of_Serugh_and_the_Promotion_of_his_Christology_in_the_Roman_Near_East_Abstract_
    Quote
    Homilies communicated complex theological concepts to ordinary people in antiquity. The sermons of Jacob of Serugh (451–521) demonstrate this process in the Roman Near East during an intense period of conflict related to the Christological debates that followed the Council of Chalcedon in 451. Jacob’s extant works include the third largest corpus of homilies from antiquity. Yet their poetic style and paucity of references to contemporary events have prohibited previous efforts to situate his homilies historically. This dissertation takes a new approach by reading his homilies in light of his letters. It identifies for the first time the pairing of miracles and sufferings as a formulaic expression used by late antique authors to express competing views on Christology. The widespread attestation of this phrase in Latin, Greek, Syriac, Coptic, and Armenian sources contextualizes the use of the pairing in Jacob’s letters and homilies. His correspondence with a monastery near the city of Antioch, a military leader in the Roman Near East, and the Himyarite community of Najran in South Arabia, firmly situate him within a specific post-Chalcedonian Christological debate. He uses the pairing of miracles and sufferings to criticize his opponents and to discuss his own views on Christology both in these letters and in his homilies. Before examining the homilies in detail, this dissertation creates a new synthesis of the evidence for the recording, circulation, and transmission of homilies in late antiquity. This process suggests that preachers took into account both the audiences before whom they delivered sermons and the readers who would encounter their homilies in circulating manuscripts. This forms one reason that preachers chose to include complex Christological concepts within homilies delivered before a broad range of society. Close examinations of homilies that Jacob preached before wide audiences reveal the subtle ways that homilies communicated complex Christological concepts to elite and non-elite audiences. By exposing the potential of Jacob of Serugh’s letters and homilies to reconstruct the formative period of the Syriac Orthodox Church in the Roman Near East, this dissertation demonstrates the importance of homilies for understanding the various levels of society that participated in religious debates.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1285 - January 19, 2017, 11:06 AM

    Yeez, I was more confused than usual about the point you were making about Lindstedt's article. Here's a talk by Lindstedt on the same subject.
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ShmtM1Zp9dU


    I think all these very early (7C) graffiti coming out of KSA are a bit strange because all the other early arabic epigraphy is coming out of the Syrian region  or even Egypt (papyri).

    In that view, Lindstedt´s touching the subject of fakes is a bit disappointing  because he goes over it very quickly saying there are no known fakes in graffiti... How are the graffiti examined if they are genuine or not? How have they been preserved over the centuries (eg for Zuhayr inscriptions 24 AH, made in sandstone according to the Ghabban article on a non shielded face of rock somewhere in the desert).

    Apparently Donner says inscriptions are easily made ( half an hour). I guess he means the ones on sandstone, basalt rock will be more difficult. But that shows the softness of the sandstone and if the inscription is not protected from the elements, it will erode. 14 centuries is a very long time. If the graffito is 1.5 cm deep (which it will not be, that would be crazy), the allowed erosion per 100 years would be 1 mm/ century and there would be no visibility left...

    So I remain skeptical on the early KSA graffiti. I hope someone will do a scientific-physical-geological analysis on them so we will have more certainty on the veracity of the inscriptions.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1286 - January 19, 2017, 05:37 PM

    I think all these very early (7C) graffiti coming out of KSA are a bit strange because all the other early arabic epigraphy is coming out of the Syrian region  or even Egypt (papyri).

    In that view, Lindstedt´s touching the subject of fakes is a bit disappointing  because he goes over it very quickly saying there are no known fakes in graffiti... How are the graffiti examined if they are genuine or not? How have they been preserved over the centuries (eg for Zuhayr inscriptions 24 AH, made in sandstone according to the Ghabban article on a non shielded face of rock somewhere in the desert).

    Apparently Donner says inscriptions are easily made ( half an hour). I guess he means the ones on sandstone, basalt rock will be more difficult. But that shows the softness of the sandstone and if the inscription is not protected from the elements, it will erode. 14 centuries is a very long time. If the graffito is 1.5 cm deep (which it will not be, that would be crazy), the allowed erosion per 100 years would be 1 mm/ century and there would be no visibility left...

    So I remain skeptical on the early KSA graffiti. I hope someone will do a scientific-physical-geological analysis on them so we will have more certainty on the veracity of the inscriptions.

    mundi   you stumped me with those words and with that post  clap

    I am just curious here .,  did you any time(at least once)  read Quran  .. all verses and of every chapter ?

    with best wishes
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1287 - January 19, 2017, 06:16 PM

    Hi Yeez,

    I read parts of the Quran, the whole thing is a bit much (I get bored easily).
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1288 - January 19, 2017, 09:24 PM

    Abstract only for a talk by Segovia. The talk itself hasn't been uploaded.

    Carlos Segovia - Re-Imagining the Rise of Islam in the 7th Century: A New Hypothesis

    https://www.academia.edu/9155361/Re-Imagining_the_Rise_of_Islam_in_the_7th_Century_A_New_Hypothesis_2015_
    I had to look up Anomoeanism: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anomoeanism


    Is this hypothesis completely new? Doesn´t it amount to a variant of the theory presented by K.H. Ohlig (of Inarah group) saying that the "muslims" of the first decennia of the 7th C were christians of an East-Syrian monophysite theology?
    http://inarah.de/bereits-veroeffentlichte-artikel/die-christliche-literatur-unter-arabischer-herrschaft-im-7-und-8-jahrhundert/

    I think the early dating of the Quran (beginning 7th C) with  Jesus in a secondary role undermines these theories unless we assume that although Quran existed at the time, no one  read it...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1289 - January 19, 2017, 09:54 PM

    Christian Lange - Revisiting Hell’s Angels in the Quran

    https://www.ris.uu.nl/ws/files/14412062/Lange_Revisiting_hell_s_angels_2016_.pdf

    This is a chapter from Locating Hell in Islamic Traditions, edited by Christian Lange and available as an open access ebook: http://booksandjournals.brillonline.com/content/books/9789004301368
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