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Theme Changer

 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

 (Read 1271168 times)
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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1170 - October 26, 2016, 12:27 PM




    Quote from: zeca on October 19, 2016, 04:02 PM
    "The oldest known Arabic writing found in Saudi Arabia, from ca. 470 AD belong to a Christian context..."

    http://www.ancient-origins.net/news-history-archaeology/archaeologists-discover-earliest-known-arabic-writing-was-penned-christian-020778?nopaging=1


    That is really an awesomely interesting find, particularly when you consider this was about 150 years before Muhammad.

    A pity that in the article reporting this awesome find, no picture is included.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1171 - October 26, 2016, 02:51 PM

    Thank you for all the input.
    I know Zoroastrianism wasnt very good in proselytizing  and rather left that to Judaism, but I think it is strange since the Persians conquered Jerusalem in 614 that Zoroastrianism isnt referred to in Quran. The invading Persians must have adhered to it and have tried to do something with their religion, no?

    From a book on Byzantine history I'm reading at the moment (this one):
    Quote
    When Heraclius returned to Constantinople, his reception was tumultuous [...] The most poignant celebration of victory, however, took place in Jerusalem in the spring of 630 when Heraclius arrived with the True Cross to restore it to the Holy City. But he also had accounts to settle. The Jews, some of whom had aided the Persians, were expelled from the city and denied the right to live within three miles of it. The Nestorian Christians, a sect that had been favoured under the Persian occupation, was ejected from the city's churches, which were then given to the Chalcedonians.

    So no mention at all of Zoroastrians here. I wonder if this is because outside Iran proper they weren't much more than a small ruling elite. I think in Iraq in the late Sasanian period Nestorian Christianity and Judaism would have been the two largest religious groups (I'm not sure of this), and presumably this would also be true for Ctesiphon, the Sasanid capital. One question that could be asked is how many of the invading 'Persians' would actually have been Zoroastrians, given that they were the soldiers of a multi-confessional and multi-ethnic empire.

    Edit: according to Encyclopaedia Iranica:
    Quote
    Although situated in the heartland of the Sasa­nian empire (del-e Ērānšahr), Ctesiphon and the sur­rounding area were inhabited mainly by Arameans, Syrians, and Arabs, who spoke Aramaic and were predominantly Christian or Jewish. Both the Jewish exilarch and the Nestorian catholicus resided in the city, and in 410 a Nestorian synod was held there (see Eilers, p. 499; Neusner pp. 917-18, 931). The Zoroastrian Persian ruling class, on the other hand, was in the minority. Curiously, none of the major fire temples was located in Sasanian Mesopotamia, though there were a few smaller ones, apparently including one at Ctesiphon; its exact site has not been identified.

    There may be an interesting comparison to be made here between Zoroastrians as a ruling elite but small religious minority in Iraq in the Sasanian period, and Muslims as a small religious minority in early Islamic Iraq. Islamic punishments for apostasy seem to have been borrowed from Zoroastrianism, and I wonder if this is something to do with their shared position as ruling religious minorities.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1172 - October 26, 2016, 06:48 PM

    Interesting Zeca,

    Seems that Zoroastrianism was already in retreat by beginning of 7C. How sure are we that the ruling elite of the Sassanian empire still adhered to it at the time? Seems there was competition from Judaism and Nestorian Christianity.. Does explain why "the new belief without a name" (Islam in 7C) had such an easy time taking over as a state religion from Zoroastrianism... Maybe we can compare with ideological confusion in contemporary Europe? But we dont know yet how that will end, in a few decades we probably will.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1173 - October 26, 2016, 07:20 PM

    Abrahamic religions are very political in nature thus used political and social power to maintain itself, gain new members, control policy, etc from within the masses and the established state. None followed a live and let live policy. All followed a policy of domination and granting of rights based on this domination to minorities.

    Europe's issue has been the same for centuries. There is no unified ideology followed by the majority but a compromise between rival view points thus cooperation. Nationalism, communism, socialism, etc have all attempted to fill the gap left in the wake of the Catholic Church losing political authority within European states.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1174 - October 26, 2016, 09:45 PM

    Quote
    This video shows the technique used by Dr Alba Fedeli to create a hypothetical retracement of the Qu'ranic undertext of the Mingana-Lewis Palimpsest, held at Cambridge University Library.

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=M7TXGs0f9IA
    Alba Fedeli - Interpreting the Qur’ānic leaves through their digital images: a hypothetical retracement

    https://specialcollections.blog.lib.cam.ac.uk/?p=12005
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1175 - October 27, 2016, 04:42 PM

    Fedeli: Amazing... I hope soon an article will come out comparing the palimpsest with the canonized text.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1176 - October 27, 2016, 05:27 PM

    Here's the abstract for Alba Fedeli's PhD thesis. Access is apparently 'restricted to repository staff only until 07 May 2017'. Hopefully this means it will be freely available after that date.

    http://etheses.bham.ac.uk/5864/
    Quote
    The Special Collections of the Cadbury Research Library at the University of Birmingham hold seven early Qur’ānic pieces on parchment and papyrus dating from the seventh century. Alphonse Mingana purchased them from the antiquarian dealer von Scherling in 1936. Through investigation of the private correspondence of Mingana and archival documents, this research provides new information about the origin and history of the fragments, whose reception has been influenced by the European cultural context at the beginning of the twentieth century, in contrast with the public image proposed in catalogues, official documents and previous studies.

    Furthermore, this research is an attempt to initiate an alternative perspective in analysing and editing the physical objects and texts of early Qur’ānic manuscripts by applying digital philology, thus using XML-encoded expressions to transcribe all of the richness of manuscripts in reconstructing the history of their transmission. This perspective interprets the process of the making of the manuscript text and the context in which the manuscript was written, thus editing its mobile and multi-layered text, differently from previous examples of the edition of early Qur’ānic manuscripts.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1177 - October 27, 2016, 06:24 PM

    Here is a link to a comparative study of parts of the rasm  by Gallez and the Inarah group (in English, yes!). I think Fedeli has cooperated at some point with the group. Hopefully soon we will get more info in this field.

    http://rootsofislamtruehistory.com/subpages/Codicology_and_suspected_verses.htm
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1178 - October 27, 2016, 10:32 PM

    That link is very interesting! 

    The text of the Sanaa palimpsest is already mostly available in the Sadeghi article, albeit it's in Arabic.  So it's not a secret.  The differences are not usually very huge, but they are certainly intriguing.  The deletion of the "al" definite article in from of al-ruh qudus is actually pretty funny.   You can already see discomfort with God's ruh in the Qur'an; Q 17:85 warns people not to ask too much about the ruh.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1179 - October 27, 2016, 11:52 PM

    Monotheism:

    How was the Zoroastrianism of the Sasanians viewed? We speak here of Judaism and Christianity, but surely Zoroastrianism must have been present too in these regions so disputed by Persians and Romans? Was Zoroastrianism viewed as purely monotheistic? Would they (or certain sects) not have been candidates to be considered as pagan?


    I'm not sure but it was part of the late antique Christian world that Islam developed from. The sixth century Ethiopian invasion of Himyar may well have helped create the context for the earliest development of what would later become Islam. Carlos Segovia argues for this.


    Zoroastrianism/Magism is quoted in the Quran (22,17) : do have we Himyarites sources about it ?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1180 - October 28, 2016, 10:35 AM

    A reddit ask historians thread on Zoroastrianism and early Islam

    https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/2pzptr/why_did_the_islamic_world_persecute_zoroastrians/
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1181 - October 28, 2016, 10:50 AM

    A blog post claiming there was a Zoroastrian presence in pre-Islamic Arabia. I'm not sure how reliable it is.

    http://tourajdaryaee-blog.tumblr.com/post/119583372631/the-arabs-who-worshipped-ahura-mazda
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1182 - October 28, 2016, 11:54 AM

     Altara  picks up an   interesting Quran verse with an odd word "Magians"  in it
    Zoroastrianism/Magism is quoted in the Quran (22,17) : do have we Himyarites sources about it ?

     Altara   also uses another confusing word  "Himyarites". The people of Southern  Yemen/Arabia and its  rulers of 5-6th century.,

    Such verses in Quran that I see here and there without head and tail are in fact is the reason why  I say   " Initial Quran must have  come  out of Hadith"  and the present book is a combination of stories from OT & NT  plus   some added mambo-jumbo put together .,

     The problem is to figure out ., who did it? when did they do it .,and how many times did they edit this book?  any way let me put that  verse 22 of surah 17  and its translations here
       
    Quote
    Quote

    17     إِنَّ الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا وَالَّذِينَ هَادُوا وَالصَّابِئِينَ وَالنَّصَارَىٰ وَالْمَجُوسَ وَالَّذِينَ أَشْرَكُوا إِنَّ اللَّهَ يَفْصِلُ بَيْنَهُمْ يَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ ۚ إِنَّ اللَّهَ عَلَىٰ كُلِّ شَيْءٍ شَهِيدٌ


    Transliteration 17:    Inna allatheena amanoo waallatheena hadoo waalssabieena waalnnasara waalmajoosa waallatheena ashrakoo inna Allaha yafsilu baynahum yawma alqiyamati inna Allaha AAala kulli shayin shaheedun


    Yusuf Ali 17:    Those who believe (in the Qur'an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians, Christians, Magians, and Polytheists,- Allah will judge between them on the Day of Judgment: for Allah is witness of all things.

    Shakir 17:       Surely those who believe and those who are Jews and the Sabeans and the Christians and the Magians and those who associate (others with Allah)-- surely Allah will decide between them on the day of resurrection; surely Allah is a witness over all things.

    Pickthal 17:       Lo! those who believe (this revelation), and those who are Jews, and the Sabaeans and the Christians and the Magians and the idolaters - Lo! Allah will decide between them on the Day of Resurrection. Lo! Allah is Witness over all things.

    Mohsin Khan: 17:       Verily, those who believe (in Allah and in His Messenger Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم), and those who are Jews, and the Sabians, and the Christians, and the Majus, and those who worship others besides Allah, truly, Allah will judge between them on the Day of Resurrection. Verily! Allah is over all things a Witness.

    Saheeh: 17:       Indeed, those who have believed and those who were Jews and the Sabeans and the Christians and the Magians and those who associated with Allah - Allah will judge between them on the Day of Resurrection[/font]. Indeed Allah is, over all things, Witness.


    What is important to note here is  "Allah will judge between them on the Day of Resurrection."  ..  NOT MUSLIMS..NOT POLITICS AND NOT THE RULERS  but ALLAH ., and allah gives judgement on that Day of Resurrection.

    ..So these FUCKING Mullahs,  Imams ..  BRUTAL ROGUES OF PRESENT  ISLAM should have no role  in giving judgement to  Apostates and blasphemers .. to atheists and to  followers of other faiths.

    Other point we must note from that verse on the history of people in Arabian peninsula and around it is  "Zoroastrian belief"..   Starting from that Cyrus the Great  who was a liberal  ruler.,    while he himself ruled according to Zoroastrian beliefs, he made no attempt to impose Zoroastrianism on the people of his subject territories. The Jews of that time indeed  benefited  by  Cyrus .He in fact  permitted them to return to Jerusalem from exile in Babylon, and rebuild their temple.  We also must note that Persian  empire of Cyrus was all the way from present Iran to the present Turkey



    So on that zeca posts .,    in the 4th and 5th century,  there must have been some Zoroastrianism flowers  all over that map that Cyrus ruled ..   .. People do not change faiths  that easily.,  what they do is they adopt new beliefs of new faith  along with their old faith habits.  

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1183 - October 28, 2016, 12:36 PM

    Here is a link to a comparative study of parts of the rasm  by Gallez and the Inarah group (in English, yes!). I think Fedeli has cooperated at some point with the group. Hopefully soon we will get more info in this field.

    http://rootsofislamtruehistory.com/subpages/Codicology_and_suspected_verses.htm


    i doubt fedeli has collaborated with this piece of garbage, seriously how they get this theory about the "nazarean",  is there any historical evidence for that ? basically it is the same non sense that crone has propose in the early seventies, an imaginary alliance between    the Arabs and the Samaritan.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1184 - October 28, 2016, 04:15 PM

    Fedeli and Inarah: her name is on the Inarah webside so I assume...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1185 - October 28, 2016, 04:28 PM

    Zoroastrianism/Magism is quoted in the Quran (22,17) : do have we Himyarites sources about it ?

    Nothing I'm aware of. I think Himyarite sources are very limited anyway. There's some general background here:

    George Hatke - South Arabian Christianity: A Crossroads of Late Antique Cultures
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1186 - October 28, 2016, 05:12 PM

    I've linked to these articles by Iranian historian Khodadad Rezakhani before but they're maybe relevant for looking at the rise of early Islam from a Sasanian perspective.

    The Arab Conquests and Sasanian Iran (Part 1) Some General Observations on the Late Sasanian Period

    The Arab Conquests and Sasanian Iran (Part 2) Islam in a Sasanian Context

    Quote
    From a late antique point of view, alongside the Christian commonwealth, the Khurramdīniyya/Mazdakite religious movements might have been in the process of creating a socio-religious commonwealth.

    In contrast, Zoroastrianism, the dominant state religion of the Sasanians, shows less interest in playing such a role. The common charge of a Zoroastrian religious autocracy, presided over by a dominant priestly establishment and headed by a mobedān mobed, is more of a mirage, and based on little evidence. Apart from the absence of a sort of “orthodox” or “mainline” Zoroastrian doctrine in the Sasanian world, there is little evidence of the presence of such dominant clergy.14 Additionally, late Sasanian Kings of Kings are known for making clear and public overtures to their native Christian communities. In fact, Khosrow II Aparwēz (591–628 CE), the quintessential late Sasanian king, married a Christian wife (perhaps two) and had a Christian chief minister. Likewise, in the course of mustering support for his campaigns against Byzantium, he supported the Eastern Christian community of the Sasanian domains; buttressed the Nestorians of Syria; and, upon conquering and entering Jerusalem, moved the True Cross from Jerusalem to Khūzestān in order to provide much prestige for the Christians of his empire. A theocratic, dominant Zoroastrian religious structure, if it existed, would simply not have allowed the king to have open relations with members of another religion, let alone to promote their interests.

    Christians, in fact, were the dominant population in the western regions of the Sasanian realm in this time period. Aramaic-speaking Christians and Jews were the main population of Mesopotamia, the heart of the Sasanian Empire (Middle Persian dil-i Ērānshahr). South-western Mesopotamia was the realm of the Arab kingdom of Ḥīra, the land of the Lakhmids, who ruled the Arab tribes of northern Arabia on behalf of the Sasanians. Eastern Arabia was also populated by Arabic-speaking tribes who were controlled via the Sasanian administration of Baḥrayn, including all of Eastern Arabia down to Oman. Southern Arabia, the former kingdom of Ḥimyar, had become part of the Sasanian Empire following its conquest about 570 CE in wars against the Axumites.15

    In this environment, Khosrow II invaded Syria in 602 and defeated the Byzantine armies there. Soon, all of Syria, Palestine, and most of Anatolia had fallen into Sasanian hands. By 615, Egypt was also a Sasanian territory. For over two decades, a whole generation in fact, the Sasanians were masters of all of West Asia, and by having defeated the Hephthalites with the help of the Western Turks in the 560s, they were also in secure control of much of their lost territory in East Iran. When the prophet of Islam was migrating from Mecca to Medina to establish his religious state there, he was living in a world dominated by Sasanian power. The state that he went on to found, and which came to dominate the Sasanian territories, should not be seen as an element external to the Sasanian Empire that caused its “fall.” Rather, we can view the nascent Islamic state as an element internal to the Sasanian order that lent itself to furthering change that was already well underway, as will be discussed in the second part of this essay.

    Quote
    It was in the context of a West Asian world dominated by the Sasanians that Islam began as a political and religious movement in Arabia Deserta. Islamic beliefs were highly influenced by Syriac Christianity, including heterodox forms of that faith – so much so that in retelling many of the devotional stories shared with the Christian faith, the Qur’an in fact alludes to and adapts narratives not included in the canonical scriptures of the major churches. Far from the simple Bedouins disconnected from the world that they are often imagined to be, the Arabs of the Ḥijāz in fact lived fully in contact with, and indeed as an integral part of, the world of Late Antiquity. They were well aware of the Sasanian-Axumite conflicts in Yemen, and knew about the Byzantine defeat and withdrawal from Syria and Egypt. The prophet of Islam, Muhammad, fits well within the pattern of the rise of the Holy Man in Late Antiquity, during which time we see an increasing trend towards, or obsession with, the concept of prophethood and the primacy of revealed scripture. Muhammad was not by any means the only Arabian prophet preaching a version of a “pure” Abrahamic religion, one “untainted” by Rabbinic Judaism or Christianity, in Arabia. The recurring theme of the prophet or holy man disappearing into the desert to contemplate and ponder, reflected in the life of the original Christian monk, St. Anthony the Great, is a blueprint for that of Muhammad. Arab prophets, who are even mentioned in Islamic texts, were a common feature in this society, and a focal point for social movements that wanted to break the geographical and political stranglehold imposed by the state of war dominating the region since the early sixth century.1

    Accustomed to open trade with Roman Syria (perhaps as leather merchants) and easy access to the Red Sea and Indian Ocean trade, the Arabs of the Ḥijāz were now bound by a Sasanian hegemony that stifled their ability to act.2 The Sasanians even controlled Najrān, close to the border between Ḥimyarite Yemen and the Ḥijāz, which was the main point of contact for the people of Mecca and Yathrib (later Medina) with the resources of Ḥimyarite Yemen. With the Kingdom of Ḥimyar gone and the Syrian trade interrupted by the Sasanian-Byzantine wars, the sources of the relative prosperity of the Bedouin and their trade city of Mecca vanished. The Sasanians, following their control of Jidda and interruption of Byzantine-Axumite contacts, even tried to impose a ruler on Mecca, although this was unsuccessful.3 It is no surprise that the first foreign relations overture of the new community of Muslims as it sought allies was with the Axumite king, the Negus (Ar. Najjāshī).

    Quote
    The conquered population of Mesopotamia, largely Christian or Jewish and speaking Aramaic, saw no reason to adopt the religion of the newcomers. The newcomers themselves probably had little idea of the differences between their own religion and those of the conquered. Both groups believed in one god, both prayed in largely the same way, and both idealized the same prophets and patriarchs of Israel: Abraham, Joseph, Moses, David, Solomon, and even Jesus.

    As the administration matured, however, so did the ideology of the newcomers. The four Rāshidūn caliphs gave way to the Umayyad imperial administration, and like all imperial systems, the Umayyads saw the necessity to adopt a clear ideology.10 Arabism or Arab tribalism was the most obvious choice, and the Umayyads adopted it wholeheartedly. But there were also the increasing benefits to the newcomers of defining their religion. In the late antique world of universal religions, clarifying your beliefs and making it the official ideology of your nascent empire had many benefits, including the ability to tax those who did not fit your definition squarely.

    In this system, access to power meant two things: adopting Arabism and adopting the religion. Among the second and third generation of the newcomers, mounting your horse and conquering had less attraction than entering the administration to run what was already conquered by your parents. Arab tribalism and adherence to a particular ideology (i.e. Islam) became the main doors of access to power.

    Not everyone accepted this, however, and much resistance came from within Muslim society itself. Certain factions rejected Arabism and tribalism, the explicit causes of trouble that had immediately followed the initial successes which had come through the conquests. Instead, they suggested that ideology should be the only way of accessing power, and no tribal affiliation should be put at equal footing with accepting the ideology. Belonging to the community of Muslims should be the only way of gaining full membership of the society. This, the ideology that was seen as the pure message of Islam, of course, was appealing to many, and became popular among many former Sasanian elites who already were outsiders in their own land. Speakers of Middle Persian, on its way to becoming New Persian since the sixth century, the Sasanian elite were already a minority among the majority Aramaic speakers. Becoming a minority of elites among a majority of Muslim Arabic speakers was hardly a shock to them.

    As an educated class, these Sasanian elites quickly adopted the new ideology and gained positions of authority. Many of them became early interpreters of the canonical beliefs of the new religion, and emerged as insiders among the community of newcomers. They promoted the choice of religious adherence as the preferred marker of social membership, and alongside Arabic, fitted Persian, their spoken tongue, as the acceptable second language of Islam. Some of them, children of the conquered grandees of the Sasanian administration, became the religious authorities of the new community, using Arabic and Persian side by side to convert the rest of the population. The Sasanian elite, by accepting new socio-political realities and integrating their own culture into it, in fact remained dominant in the same territories, while accommodating a new Arab elite settling in the same area.

    These were the actual vehicles of conversion in most of the former Sasanian Empire. Moving alongside the conquering armies and as part of the expanding administration, they used their own version of Persian, the vulgar, almost pidgin, spoken form of the language, instead of the high literate Middle Persian of the Sasanian administration and culture, to spread the new ideology. Just as in Syria, where speaking Arabic and adopting the new ideology, Islam, had become the way to access power, in the former Sasanian territories, speaking Persian and adopting the new ideology became the main way to gain similar power.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1187 - October 28, 2016, 06:12 PM

    On origin of Arabs and Arabic:
    Nothing I'm aware of. I think Himyarite sources are very limited anyway. There's some general background here:

    George Hatke - South Arabian Christianity: A Crossroads of Late Antique Cultures


    Your Link Zeca really gives an interesting overview of archeological and epigraphic finds in South Arabia. What struck me was the use of the word "Arab" several times (p22) and that made me think of Jan Retso´s article questioning if "Arab" was an ethnic specification since in pre-islamic sources and in the Quran itself it seemed not to be used that way:
    https://www.academia.edu/8557810/Arabs_and_Arabic_in_the_Age_of_the_Prophet

    Anyone has an opinion if the p22 use of the word Arab could support or weaken Retso´s theory?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1188 - October 28, 2016, 09:04 PM

    Michael Cooperson - "Arabs" and "Iranians": The uses of ethnicity in the early Abbasid period

    https://www.academia.edu/15880214/_Arabs_and_Iranians_The_uses_of_ethnicity_in_the_early_Abbasid_period
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1189 - October 28, 2016, 09:26 PM

    Thank you. Touraj Daryaee affirms that "There were Zoroastrians in the pre-Islamic period in Arabia, possibly among the tribes of Tamim in Yemen." I've checked the sources he gives, and there's no traces of Zoroastrians Arabs, and even less Himyarites sources about them, but of Persians installed in the Peninsula. I set aside here Tabari whose agenda (and this of his predecessors) is to stuck to the Quranic statements granted as God's ones.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1190 - October 28, 2016, 09:53 PM

    On origin of Arabs and Arabic:
    Your Link Zeca really gives an interesting overview of archeological and epigraphic finds in South Arabia. What struck me was the use of the word "Arab" several times (p22) and that made me think of Jan Retso´s article questioning if "Arab" was an ethnic specification since in pre-islamic sources and in the Quran itself it seemed not to be used that way:
    https://www.academia.edu/8557810/Arabs_and_Arabic_in_the_Age_of_the_Prophet

    Anyone has an opinion if the p22 use of the word Arab could support or weaken Retso´s theory?


    It's the Quran which have resurrected the word "Arab" which belong the the world of Biblical Revelation. They were called Sarakenoi... However one have the AD 328 Namara inscription of Imru' al-Qays : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Namara_inscription
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1191 - October 28, 2016, 10:32 PM

    Altara,

    Retso talks about the Namara inscription and doesnt see it as proof.
    But he doesnt talk about the Yemen mentions of "Arab", and I wonder how these would fit into his theory that "Arab" is indeed a post-Quran denomination both for the language as for the ethnicity.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1192 - October 31, 2016, 05:06 PM

    Short new powerpoint presentation using Thamud to illustrate how the Islamic recitation traditions, using Classical Arabic, do not accurately reflect the language of the Qur'an's rasm.

    https://www.academia.edu/29563827/Tham%C5%ABd_-_The_civilization_that_sheds_light_on_the_Quranic_reading_traditions_and_their_relationship_to_the_Quranic_text._Presented_at_Language_Change_in_Epic_Greek_and_other_Oral_Traditions_28_october_2016_Leiden

    Good for those interested in this gap and what it signifies.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1193 - October 31, 2016, 05:08 PM

    Blistering new review by Lindstedt (very interesting scholar) of a new book on the Jews of Medina.  Well worth reading.

    https://www.academia.edu/29498830/Review_of_Haggai_Mazuz_The_Religious_and_Spiritual_Life_of_the_Jews_of_Medina

    I enjoy how his review takes it to Lecker too, who just a few posts back I was criticizing for this very same problem.

    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=27568.msg862005#msg862005
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1194 - October 31, 2016, 09:12 PM

    Short new powerpoint presentation using Thamud to illustrate how the Islamic recitation traditions, using Classical Arabic, do not accurately reflect the language of the Qur'an's rasm.

    https://www.academia.edu/29563827/Tham%C5%ABd_-_The_civilization_that_sheds_light_on_the_Quranic_reading_traditions_and_their_relationship_to_the_Quranic_text._Presented_at_Language_Change_in_Epic_Greek_and_other_Oral_Traditions_28_october_2016_Leiden

    Good for those interested in this gap and what it signifies.


    Van Putten claims that Quranic text was composed as an oral text and had a tradition of oral transmission. Is that position still tenable after the very early C14 datings and the relatively unchanged rasms that have been discovered? Seems to me that the reading might have been transmitted orally but the rasm must have been transmitted in a very strict scribal tradition.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1195 - October 31, 2016, 09:28 PM

    I agree with you and don't agree with Van Putten there.  But it doesn't reflect much on his basic argument.  He takes a very classic view of how quranic composition happened, following Islamic tradition, but that's probably because he is a Semiticist and not really focused on modern Qur'anic Studies.

    He is right that there must have been SOME continuous oral recitation tradition that accompanied transmission of the written text because otherwise it would have been unreadable.  And there are very few words in the Qur'an that Islamic tradition appears to have clearly misread ... most being Syriacisms.  But you are probably right that there was a period of rigid scribal compilation and transmission, which retained comparatively little interpretive context.  This is the easiest explanation for the question he poses about how the Classical Arabic reading could have been imposed...there wasn't anything much to impose it over.  If people didn't even know what the 'mysterious letters' were, they weren't exactly going to raise a fuss about alternative means of vocalizing the rasm.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1196 - October 31, 2016, 09:28 PM

    Blistering new review by Lindstedt (very interesting scholar) of a new book on the Jews of Medina.  Well worth reading.

    https://www.academia.edu/29498830/Review_of_Haggai_Mazuz_The_Religious_and_Spiritual_Life_of_the_Jews_of_Medina

    I enjoy how his review takes it to Lecker too, who just a few posts back I was criticizing for this very same problem.


    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=27568.msg862005#msg862005


     Afro to the team!
     
    Hopefully the wind is turning and there comes a true separation of scientific articles and islamic mythology articles. I think if the clear distinction is made, it will mean less frustration and less waste of time...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1197 - October 31, 2016, 09:37 PM

    On Van Putten:

    Zaotar,

    There are several Semiticists  (I think of Kerr, Gallez, Bonnet) that claim plenty of Quranic words have been misread... An example we discussed here was the stem h-j-r were Kerr claims it has nothing to de with emigrants but everything with the name for the arabs at the time. The  same for n-s-r that according to him doesnt mean helpers...
    But most scholars just think it is a step too far to question certain readings....According to me, not questioning these foundations, makes the same mistake as the scholars writing Islamic mythology articles.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1198 - November 03, 2016, 10:52 PM

    Very cool Fred Donner article.

    https://www.academia.edu/29643126/Quranicization_of_Religio-Political_Discourse_in_the_Umayyad_Period
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1199 - November 07, 2016, 03:42 PM

    The first use of the word 'Arab'

    https://mobile.twitter.com/iandavidmorris/status/795444249189904386
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