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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #840 - May 25, 2016, 03:26 PM

    Preview of the Qur'an Seminar Commentary (more here)

    https://www.academia.edu/25607710/Quran_Seminar_Commentary_title_page_contributors_17_page_excerpt_De_Gruyter_2016
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #841 - May 25, 2016, 06:34 PM

    Thanks Zeca for posting the M. Penn Utube: it´s fascinating!

    There's a follow up panel discussion as well, though this deals with Syriac Christianity more generally.
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lTQRJzf6-yE
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #842 - May 28, 2016, 10:02 PM

    Dr. Shehzad Saleem on different versions of the Qur'an

    https://youtu.be/RvJ_zNeE2L4
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #843 - May 28, 2016, 10:37 PM

    Dr. Shehzad Saleem on different versions of the Qur'an

    https://youtu.be/RvJ_zNeE2L4




     well I am not sure how many people know about him.. But he is from Pakistan and was a student of  Javed Ahmad Ghamidi   with whom we had a long discussion some  5 years ago

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CwpRmujqdvo

    and look what Islamic heroes says about Javed Ahmad Ghamidi..

    Quote
    J. A.Ghamidi:

    Quote
    Javed Ahmed Ghamidi resigned in September 2006 from the Council of Islamic Ideology (CII), a constitutional body responsible for providing legal advice on Islamic issues to the Pakistani government. His resignation was 'accepted' by the President of Pakistan.

     Ghamidi's resignation was prompted by the Pakistani government's formation of a separate committee of ulema to review a Bill involving women's rights; the committee was formed after extensive political pressure was applied by the MMA. Ghamidi argued that this was a breach of the CII's jurisdiction, since the very purpose of the council is to ensure that Pakistan's laws do not conflict with the teachings of Islam. He also said that the amendments in the bill proposed by the Ulema committee were against the injunctions of Islam. This event occurred when the MMA threatened to resign from the provincial and national assemblies if the government amended the Hudood Ordinance,  which came into being under Zia-ul-Haq's Islamization. The Hudood Ordinances have been criticised for, among other things, insisting upon an exceptionally difficult and dangerous procedure to prove allegations of rape.

    Exile from Pakistan

    Ghamidi left Pakistan  as a result of strong and violent actions against his work. In a 2015 interview with Voice of America, Ghamidi explained his reason for leaving was to safeguard the lives of people near him  including his neighbours who also feared for their lives.

     Some of his close associates had already been killed like Dr. Muhammad Farooq Khan and Dr. Habib-ur-Rehman, the latter was murdered in his clinic. Another close associate who was related to the work of Ghamidi's Risala, Syed Manzoor-ul-Hasan was shot through the mouth, but survived although the bullet still remains in his body. Ghamidi maintained that because of today's means of communication, his work of education does not get affected by his exile.



    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #844 - May 29, 2016, 01:16 AM

    Q. 69:27 canonically reads yâ'laytahâ kânati al-qâdiyatu. Ghali and Pickthall translate this "o that this had been the end": http://quran.com/69

    But then, well, there was caliph al-Walid. Suyuti, tr. Jarrett History of the Caliphs (1881), 228:
    Quote
    Abu 'Ikrima al-Dabi says that al-Walid read from the pulpit, "o that death had made an end of me" (yâ'laytuhâ). Below the pulpit stood 'Umar bin Abdi'l-'Aziz and Sulayman bin Abdi'l-Malik, and Sulayman exclaimed, "by Allah, I would it had!"


    Interestingly, Yusuf Ali sides with al-Walid...

    OBSESSIVE NERD EDIT 8:25 PM MST

    Jarrett's translation smelled funny, and his footnoted yâ'laytuhâ smelled worse. So I went to dig up the primary from Islamport. I think I've found the source for this. It's not all Jarrett's fault; Suyuti had abbreviated his sources.

    Abd al-Malik b Husayn b Abd al-Malik al-Isami (d 1111/1699), Samt al-nujum al-awali fi anba al-awail wa-al-tawali, quotes Ibn al-Anbari... who, we know from the Itqan, was one of Suyuti's sources. Al-Anbari includes some key material:
    قال ابن الأنباري: حدثنا أبو عكرمة الضبي؛ أن الوليد بن عبد الملك قرأ على المنبر: " يا ليتها كانت القاضية " " الحاقة: 27 " وضم التاء،
     وتحت المنبر عمر بن عبد العزيز، وسليمان بن عبد الملك أخوه، فقال عمر بن عبد العزيز: وددتها والله عليك.

    The issue was that al-Walid had added the consonant "T". (Although Anbari credits Umar with the snark.)

    Mukhtasar Tarikh Dimashq agrees that the "T" was the problem, but goes back to crediting Sulayman.

    My Arabic isn't quite good enough to see how the "T" would have mattered, since ta marbuta on al-qâdiyatu is in the canonical text...

    NEXT DAY EDIT, 12:30 PM
    I get the joke! With the "t", the audience was expecting that verse to continue. So Sulayman and Umar, playing the muppets Waldorf and Astoria beneath the minbar at the Mosque Of Damascus, had added the word 'ala (al-Walid) to the message.

    Man, this language is hard. And harder when lazy translators don't cross-reference their stuff.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #845 - May 29, 2016, 02:58 AM

    Tommaso Tesei has a very interesting theory how to reconcile between the conflicts between the Quran and the early Islamic historiography


    https://www.academia.edu/13381864/_The_Qur_%C4%81n_s_in_Context_s_._Lecture_given_at_the_Polonsky_Academy_for_Advanced_Studies_at_the_Van_Leer_Jerusalem_Institute_Jerusalem_July_23_2014
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #846 - May 29, 2016, 11:28 AM

    Tommaso Tesei has a very interesting theory how to reconcile between the conflicts between the Quran and the early Islamic historiography


    https://www.academia.edu/13381864/_The_Qur_%C4%81n_s_in_Context_s_._Lecture_given_at_the_Polonsky_Academy_for_Advanced_Studies_at_the_Van_Leer_Jerusalem_Institute_Jerusalem_July_23_2014


    Tommaso Tesei .....
    Quote
    Given the vagueness that surrounds these very basic questions, the situation could appear as quite Kafkaesque. However, thanks to rare but precious material evidence and a handful of non Islamic witnesses we can at least fix some points. Above all, we can infer that a Muḥammad existed, for some early Syriac sources mention his name. Early non-Islamic sources also confirm his profession as a merchant. We can also have some confidence that he was preaching in Central Arabia and that his movement was in contact with members of a Jewish community—whose presence in the Hijaz is certified by few inscriptions. We also know that many people, and probably at least some members of the community, perceived Muḥammad's preaching in strong apocalyptic terms. We can also assume that something important occurred in 622 – i.e., the traditional date of hiǧra – as very early documents already acknowledge the hiǧra dating system.

    As for the Qur’ān, the canon was probably already in existence by the end of the 7th c., while scholars disagree on the exact period. To this one might add that, as some colleagues with an approach more traditionalist than mine have recently shown, later Islamic sources occasionally mention traditions traceable back to the first half of the 8th c. While it is still problematic to connect these traditions to the first generations of Muslims (or proto-Muslims) such outcomes shorten the span of time elapsing between the earliest extant sources and the events they are concerned with. While belonging to the revisionist current, I shall admit that the skepticism about Islamic sources has sometimes been exagerated. Totally ignoring this literary material means to ignore a core of reliable information that these sources might contain.


    many statements of that paper are questionable  .e,g.

    " we can infer that a Muḥammad existed, for some early Syriac sources mention his name"

    that has no real proof.... it is all hand waving ..he said.. she said stories..

    As for the Qur’ān, the canon was probably already in existence by the end of the 7th c.[/i]

    what does that mean?? what canon??  that canon of Muhammad in Quran are nothing but stories from hadith.,  Much of the Quran can be written without the character "Muhammad"

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #847 - May 29, 2016, 05:26 PM

    Ian David Morris - 'Allahu Akbar!' reflected in early Christian sources

    http://www.iandavidmorris.com/allahu-akbar-in-early-christian-sources/
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #848 - May 29, 2016, 06:40 PM

    Peter Webb - Imagining the Arabs: Arab Identity and the Rise of Islam (introduction)

    https://www.academia.edu/25496690/Imagining_the_Arabs_Arab_Identity_and_the_Rise_of_Islam
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #849 - May 29, 2016, 07:22 PM

    Peter Webb - The origin of Arabs: Middle Eastern ethnicity and myth-making

    https://www.academia.edu/25496803/The_origin_of_Arabs_Middle_Eastern_ethnicity_and_myth-making
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #850 - May 29, 2016, 09:48 PM

    Peter Webb - Al-Jāhiliyya: Uncertain Times of Uncertain Meanings

    https://www.academia.edu/7027512/Al-Jāhiliyya_Uncertain_Times_of_Uncertain_Meanings
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #851 - May 29, 2016, 09:52 PM

    Sean Anthony now has a Twitter account:

    https://mobile.twitter.com/shahanSean

    'earliest mention of Muhammad on a material object' (yeezevee take note)

    https://mobile.twitter.com/288Sean/status/736032919685332992
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #852 - May 30, 2016, 01:54 AM

    Quote
    'earliest mention of Muhammad on a material object' (yeezevee take note)

    https://mobile.twitter.com/288Sean/status/736032919685332992


    That is the same Syriac text M. Penn is referring to in the U-tube you linked, Zeca...(min 10:00) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DxS7N1yKQQQ&app=desktop
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #853 - May 30, 2016, 02:03 AM

    Sean Anthony now has a Twitter account:

    https://mobile.twitter.com/288Sean

    'earliest mention of Muhammad on a material object' (yeezevee take note)

    https://mobile.twitter.com/288Sean/status/736032919685332992

        (yeezevee take note).. Cheesy Cheesy

    No twitters..no facebooks for yeezevee  .....

    Quote
    Facebook: 1,590,000,000 users.
    WhatsApp 1,000,000,000 users.
    Facebook Messenger: 900,000,000 users.
    QQ: 853,000,000 users.
    WeChat: 697,000,000 users.
    QZone: 640,000,000 users.
    Tumblr: 555,000,000 users.
    Instagram: 400,000,000 users.
    Twitter: 320,000,000 users.
    Baidu Tieba: 300,000,000 users.
    Skype: 300,000,000 users.
    Viber: 249,000,000 users.
    Sina Weibo: 222,000,000 users.
    Line: 215,000,000 users.
    Snapchat: 200,000,000 users.

      NONE OF THOSE THINGS TO THAT RASCAL yeezevee.,   zeca... he is banned using all those things..



    So is this the one are you referring??  that picture at   https://twitter.com/AhmedAgnostic/status/725221062204612608

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #854 - May 30, 2016, 02:06 AM

    On P. Webb´s article on arguments concerning existence of Islamic tradition´s Mecca:

    Quote
    Furthermore, from very early times, non-Islamic sources associate the new religious movement with the Hijaz.


    Does anyone know what these sources are or knows of an article describing these sources that  indicate Mecca being established as religious base early 7C?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #855 - May 30, 2016, 02:15 AM

    On P. Webb´s article on arguments concerning existence of Islamic tradition´s Mecca:

    Does anyone know what these sources are or knows of an article describing these sources that  indicate Mecca being established as religious base early 7C?


    Hello  mundi.,    Another way of asking that question similar to the word "Muhammad" is ..

    Do we have any source specially   from Christian.......Jewish .... Roman or Zoroastrian  from 5 to 7th century that mentions the town  name "Mecca" ??

    well let me add some links here

    Quote


    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #856 - May 30, 2016, 02:02 PM

    well on that important question
    Hello  mundi.,    Another way of asking that question similar to the word "Muhammad" is ..

    Do we have any source specially   from Christian.......Jewish .... Roman or Zoroastrian  from 5 to 7th century that mentions the town  name "Mecca" ??
     

    I wish friends who are exploring early Islamic history in Academic circles  could write something on it. anyway let put this link

    Did Kabah In Makkah Exist before 4th Century?    and add some nuggets from it..

    Quote
    ..One of the recent things I have heard from Christian missionaries, when debating with them is that they say, “Kabah in Mecca did not exist before the 4th century.” Some of them even say that the Ka’bah in Mecca where Muslims go for pilgrimage annually has no history before the advent of Islam. These ridiculous fictitious claims have no bases whatsoever. I shall now bring forth evidences that Kabah in Makah did exist in history long before the coming of Muhammed (p).

    Diodorus Siculus (Born: 90 BC – Died: 30 BC)

    Diodorus Siculus was a Greek historian, who wrote works of history in the 1st Century BC. He is known for the monumental universal history Bibliotheca historica. Diodorus is the first known Historian long before the coming of Islam that makes mention of Mecca.

    Reverend Charles Augustus Goodrich a Christian, was an American author and Congregational minister comments on Kaaba and Mecca, although, he is not fond of the Prophet Muhammed (pbuh), but he is sincere in admitting that Ka’bah existed at the time of Patriarchs. He writes:

    Quote
    “Among the variety of fabulous traditions which have been propagated by the followers of Mahomet, concerning the origin of this building, we find it asserted, that its existence is coeval with our parents, and that it was built by Adam, after his expulsion from paradise, from a representation of the celestial temple, which the almighty let down from heaven in curtains of light and placed in Mecca, perpendicular under the original. To this the patriarch was commanded to turn his face when he prayed, and to compass it by way of devotion, as the angels did the heavenly one. After the destruction of this temple by the deluge, it was rebuilt by Abraham and his son Ishmael on the same spot, and after the same model, according to directions, which they received by revelation; and since that time, it has continued to be the object of veneration to Ishmael’s descendants. Whatever discredit we may give to these, and other ravings of the Moslem imposter concerning the Caaba its high antiquity cannot be disputed; and the most probable account is, that it was built and used for religious purposes by some of the early patriarchs; and after the introduction of idols, it came to be appropriated to the reception of the pagan divinities. Diodorus Siculus, in his description of the cost of the Red Sea, mentions this temple as being, in his time, held in great veneration by all Arabians; and Pocoke informs us, that the linen or silken veil, with which it is covered, was first offered by a pious King of the Hamyarites, seven hundred years before the time of Mahomet.” 1



    Quote
    John Reynell Morell:

    “…historically speaking, Mecca was a holy city long before Mohammed. Diodorus siculus, following agatharcides, relates that not far from the red sea, between the country of the Sabeans and of the Thamudites there existed a celebrated temple, venerated throughout Arabia.”[2]

    Encyclopædia Britannica: Or, A Dictionary of Arts, sciences and Miscellaneous Literature – Colin Macfarquhar:

    “the science of astronomy was cultivated at Babylon; but the school of the Arabs was a clear firmament and a naked plain. In their nocturnal marches, they steered by the guidance of the stars: their names and order, daily station were familiar to the curiosity and devotion of the bedoween; and he was taught by experience to divide in 28 parts the Zodiac of the moon, and to bless the constellations who refreshed, with salutary rains, the thirst of the desert. The reign of the heavenly orbs could not be extended beyond the visible sphere; and some metaphorical powers were necessary to sustain the transmigration of the souls and the resurrection of bodies: a camel was left to perish on the grave, that he might serve his master in another life; and the invocation of departed spirits implies that they were still endowed with consciousness and power. Each tribe, each family, each independent warrior, created and changed the rites and the object of this fantastic worship; but the nation in every age has bowed to the religion as well as to the language, of Mecca. The genuine antiquity of the Caaba extends beyond the Christian era: in describing the coast of the Red Sea, the Greek historian Diodorus has remarked, between the Thamaudites and the Sabeans a famous temple, whose superior sanctity was revered by ALL THE ARABIANS: the linen or silken veil, which is annually renewed by the Turkish Emperor, was first offered by a pious King of the Homerites, who reigned 700 years before the time of Mahomet.“ [3]

    Andrew Crichton also comments on the ‘Kabah’ in his book; ‘The history of Arabia, ancient and modern.’

    “From the celebrity of the place, a vast concourse of pilgrims flocked to it from all quarters. Such was the commencement of the city and the superstitions fame of Mecca, the very name of which implies a place of great resort. Whatever credit may be due to these traditions, the antiquity of the Kaaba is unquestionable; for its origin ascends far beyond the beginning of the Christian era. A passage in Diodorus has anobvious reference to it, who speaks of a famous temple among the people he calls Bizomenians, revered as most sacred by all Arabians.” [4]


    Quote
    Claudius Ptolemy (Born: 90 AD – Died: 168 AD)

    Claudius Ptolemy was a Greco-Roman writer of Alexandria, known as a mathematician, astronomer, geographer; is another person, centuries before Islam who makes mention of Makkah. He uses the name ‘Makoraba’ for Makkah.

    In the Book: ‘The New Encyclopedia of Islam’, written by Cyril Glassé says that Ptolmey, in the second century mentioned Makkah. Here is what he wrote,

    “Mecca (Makkah al-Mukarramah, lit ‘Mecca the blessed’). For thousands of years Mecca has been a spiritual center. Ptolemy, the second century Greek geographer, mentioned Mecca, calling it ‘Makoraba’. Some have interpreted this to mean temple (from Maqribah in south Arabian) but it may also mean ‘Mecca of the Arabs’.” [5]

    Ilya Pavlovich Petrushevsky (1898–1977) was an Professor of History of the Near East at the University of Leningrad for twenty years, he also makes mention that Ptolemy in the second Century mentioned Makkah:

    “On the caravan route from Syria to the Yemen, in the Hijaz neighbourhood, lay Mecca. Ptolemy, the Greek geographer, mentions it as early as the second century calling it Makoraba, which is derived from the south Arab word Maqrab meaning ‘sanctuary’. [6]


    Quote
    Michael Wolfe:

    “Mecca lies midway along the west coast of Arabia in a mountainous barrier region named the Hijaz. This narrow tract of land about nine hundred miles long with the Tropic of Cancer passing through its center. The second-century Greco-Egyptian geographer Ptolemy called the city Makoraba, the temple.” [7]


    Quote
    Paul Wheatley:

    “it was its virtual monopoly of Hijaz commerce which made of Mecca, in the words of the Quran, ‘a city secure and at peace; provisions flowing in from every side’. But all this is concerned with the expansion of the influence of a city which already existed. The name Mecca (strictly transliterated as Makkah) had been mentioned in the Ptolmaic corpus in the 2nd century AD under the orthography Makoraba, which itself derived from the Sabaean Makuraba, meaning ‘sanctuary’. Long before Muhammad the Ka’bah had served as the central shrine of a group of clans, each of whom had deposited its ritual stone, symbolizing its own god, in the sacred precinct.” [8]

    In the book ‘A Comparative Study of Thirty City-state Cultures: An Investigation’, by Mogens Herman Hansen; in Note 24 he makes it clear when Ptolemy mentioned the name ‘Macoraba’, that he meant Mecca:


    Quote
    “Ptolemy in Geographies refers to Mecca as Macoraba.” [9]

    From all the evidences which I have presented, from objective and academic sources, it can clearly be seen that it is a fact that Kabaah existed before the advent of Islam and Muhammad (peace be upon him).  Sealing my arguments, I refer you to Reverend Charles Augustus Goodrich, a Christian historian, who admitted that the Kabaah existed and was built by the Patriarchs. In his own words, he says, “Caaba its high antiquity cannot be disputed; and the most probable account is, that it was built and used for religious purposes by some of the early patriarchs.”


    References:

    [1] Religious Ceremonies and Customs, Or: The Forms of Worship Practised by the several nations of the known world, from the earliest records to the present time, Charles Augustus Goodrich [Hartford: Published by Hutchinson and Dwine 1834] page 124
    [2] Turkey, Past and Present: Its History, Topography, and Resources By John Reynell Morell, page 84
    [3] Encyclopaedia Britannica: Or, A Dictionary of Arts, sciences and Miscellaneous Literature Constructed on a Plan volume 2, by Colin Macfarquhar page 183 – 184
    [4] The history of Arabia, ancient and modern volume 1 [second edition] By Andrew Crichton page 100
    [5] The New Encyclopedia of Islam by Cyril Glasse page 302
    [6] Islam in Iran by I. Pavlovich Petrushevsky page 3
    [7] One Thousand Roads to Mecca: Ten Centuries of Travelers Writing about the Muslim pilgrimage Michael Wolfe introduction xv
    [8] Paul Wheatley The Origins and Character of the Ancient Chinese City: volume 11 page 288
    [9] A Comparative Study of Thirty City-state Cultures: An Investigation, Volume 21 by Mogens Herman Hansen page 248 NOTE 24

    well let me read through again and let me explore whatever references I can  get hands on..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #857 - May 30, 2016, 03:06 PM

    Hi Yeezevee,

    Webb who calls himself a revisionist says there are many early christian sources referring to Mecca but doesnt say which ones. I only know of the 750 AD Spanish chronicle mentioning Mecca but not in the Hijaz...That´s why I´m so interested in Webb´s sources. Maybe it´s new research?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #858 - May 30, 2016, 03:28 PM

    Quote
    Webb who calls himself a revisionist says there are many early christian sources referring to Mecca but doesnt say which ones.

     I only know of the 750 AD Spanish chronicle mentioning Mecca but not in the Hijaz...That´s why I´m so interested in Webb´s sources. Maybe it´s new research?

    Hi mundi, I wonder whether you could add link of those 750 AD Spanish chronicles  and  let  me add  that   Hamza tortilla parrot talk link on that subject   along with that Dr Peter Webb's blog

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #859 - May 30, 2016, 04:39 PM

    That is the same Syriac text M. Penn is referring to in the U-tube you linked, Zeca...(min 10:00) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DxS7N1yKQQQ&app=desktop

    Sean Anthony's tweet also has a link to the relevant pages in Penn's When Christians first met Muslims:

    http://bit.ly/1TI6sHr

    Quote from: mundii
    On P. Webb´s article on arguments concerning existence of Islamic tradition´s Mecca:
    Quote
    Furthermore, from very early times, non-Islamic sources associate the new religious movement with the Hijaz.

    Does anyone know what these sources are or knows of an article describing these sources that indicate Mecca being established as religious base early 7C?

    Which article is this? I haven't heard of any conclusive evidence of references to Mecca before the second fitna, but maybe it does exist. Actually I think it would be surprising if Mecca hadn't been there for a long time before, but this doesn't necessarily mean that it had any great significance and was anything more than a large village or small town. I've seen a reference recently, I forget where, to Mecca a couple of centuries after the rise of Islam only having a few thousand inhabitants.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #860 - May 30, 2016, 05:17 PM

    Tommaso Tesei .....
    many statements of that paper are questionable  .e,g.

    " we can infer that a Muḥammad existed, for some early Syriac sources mention his name"

    that has no real proof.... it is all hand waving ..he said.. she said stories..

    By the standards of ancient history finding any independent contemporary references to people mentioned in later accounts is a big deal. What more would you expect to find from 7th century sources?
    Quote
    As for the Qur’ān, the canon was probably already in existence by the end of the 7th c.

    what does that mean?? what canon??  that canon of Muhammad in Quran are nothing but stories from hadith.,  Much of the Quran can be written without the character "Muhammad"

    The canon is the collection of writings that were compiled and edited to form the accepted text of the Qur'an. Tesei is saying nothing here about Muhammad.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #861 - May 31, 2016, 01:46 AM

    Regarding this Quote:
    Quote
    Quote
    Furthermore, from very early times, non-Islamic sources associate the new religious movement with the Hijaz.

    Does anyone know what these sources are or knows of an article describing these sources that indicate Mecca being established as religious base early 7C?


    Sorry Zeca, it was not Webb´s article but Tomasso Tessei´s article... He himself says it´s "a working paper"...so I probably attached too much significance to the argument.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #862 - May 31, 2016, 08:16 AM

    ^Thanks mundi - I was wondering if I'd missed something in Webb's articles. He has actually written something related to this but it's essentially about pre-Islamic Mecca as imagined in later Muslim traditions.

    Peter Webb - The Hajj before Muhammad

    https://www.academia.edu/7027500/The_Hajj_before_Muhammad
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #863 - May 31, 2016, 01:35 PM

    Interesting article, Zeca. Some thoughts:

    1/The earliest source for the Hajj (and hence for Mecca) seems to be Quran. Webb puts in a footnote that "some even deny that Mecca was Islam’s original cult centre (originally in Crone 1987, and repeated very recently in Holland 2012)". But that´s all on the topic.

    2/The doubts in reading of the rasm are touched upon too but not examined in depth (Bacca-Mekka example).

    I understand that Webb´s article has a different focus but I am left with "a feeling of hunger", it´s as if the core of the problem is neglected and focus is shifted to the periphery...

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #864 - June 03, 2016, 08:34 PM

    Articles by Greg Fisher

    Arabia and the Late Antique East: Current Research, New Problems

    From Mavia to al-Mundhir: Arab Christians and Arab Tribes in the Late Antique Near East

    Kingdoms or Dynasties? Arabs, History, and Identity Before Islam
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #865 - June 03, 2016, 09:30 PM

    The Webb article paraphrases Tabari's tafsir (1999), 1.761 - "the rock of the Ka‘ba floated on the primordial soup before the world was created".

    If the Stone is a meteorite, and especially if it's carbonaceous... this might even be true, in a sense.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #866 - June 03, 2016, 10:38 PM

    I hate to state the obvious but ....

    Scientific miracle.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #867 - June 04, 2016, 04:12 PM

    Has the change from Roman to Arabic numerals anything to do with the success of Islam in the 600's?

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #868 - June 04, 2016, 11:40 PM

    The imperialism and expansion phases certainly would be a factor but Spain I believe is the primary source of transmission into Europe. So more likely the 800s.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #869 - June 05, 2016, 12:12 AM

    Thanks Zeca for posting  "Arabia and the Late Antique East: Current Research, New Problems", Did Greg Fisher argue for a sectarian milieu of the Quran, but with a twist, instead of abbasid iraq, he is suggesting pre-islamic Arabia ?

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