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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #480 - July 27, 2015, 10:44 PM


    I found the first of these articles fascinating and wonderfully rewarding.

     The second was too much for me. Although it is written by the same author, he is talking to a fellow academic, and thus unleashes all of his intellectual might upon her. Unfortunately for me, Segovia seems to forget however that dimmer individuals may be trying to follow his intellectual sparring.

    That Tesei article is indeed really good!

    To address this quickly, there seem to be two primary schools of thought amongst the revisionists.  One is that the 'ur-Qur'an', or primitive Qur'an, closely reflected Muhammad's original teaching, and was written over by later Islamicizing tradition.  The other view is that the ur-Qur'an did not originally relate to Muhammad at all, and likely pre-existed him.  These texts were then adapted (one could even argue by Muhammad himself, or somebody close to him) to legitimate Muhammad as a prophet. 

    Tesei is in the former camp, and so he tends to explain the hetereogeneity of the Qur'an in terms of a relatively long Islamicizing period, with scribes sort of assembling what they believed Muhammad had said.  If anything, this is probably the more common view amongst revisionists. 

    I'm in the latter camp, which I think is the minority, but growing.  Significant differences:  The latter camp argues that the Qur'an probably formed more quickly, and that the ur-Qur'anic material had already attained some level of prestige at an early date.  Actually this need not have pre-dated Muhammad either.  It could have been a *merger*, with Muhammad being seen as the subject of a certain body of Qur'anic discourse that was composed by somebody else (probably in a different region, no less).  In many ways, this model actually follows the traditional Islamic historical narrative more closely, though of course it has a totally different explanation of Qur'anic composition.

    Thank you, as always Zaoter. Once again, you've made things a lot clearer for me. I'm hoping that clarity sticks for a little longer this time though.

    I am drawn to the former camp you refer to. Their world seems more certain. They seem a little more sure-footed, albeit with potentially speculative foundations. They seem to have clear goals, along with the confidence that they are a stone's throw away from cracking this mess very soon. Are you not envious of this optimistic nature of theirs?

    Hi
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #481 - July 27, 2015, 11:10 PM

    It seems logical that it is a collection, not of stuff mo said, but of various bits and pieces.  I thought someone had proposed it is a lexicon, a collection for teaching purposes, of a xian sect.

    http://www.newenglishreview.org/custpage.cfm/frm/19589/sec_id/19589


    This gets to an interesting issue.  In Syriac Christianity, the "Qeryana" is a selection of scripture that you read to the congregation (like a selection of verses from the Gospel of Matthew, for example).  The scripture would never refer to itself as Qeryana, since that's a liturgical term.  But the Qur'an uses a derivative of that Syriac term totally differently!  When it says "Qur'an," it seems to be referring to itself, as a *commentary* on older scripture, or a confirmation of it.  How could that happen?  Well, I think the most likely explanation is that the Qeryana was in Syriac (since Christian scripture was not translated into Arabic until very late), delivered to an Arabic-speaking audience with commentary in Arabic vernacular.  That Arabic commentary would have talked about the "Qur'an", referring to the Syriac scripture that had just been read, or was about to be read, explaining it in 'clear Arabic.'  But the Qur'an became understood as referring to the scriptural commentary itself, rather than the Biblical reading, which then became understood as if it, in turn, was scripture.

    Now the interesting thing is that the original meaning of Qur'an does not seem to have been preserved, or it is not clearly preserved.  In Q 85, it ends by saying "This is an honored Qur'an, in a preserved state."  But the immediately preceding lines say "Has there reached you the story of the soldiers - [Those of] Pharaoh and Thamud?  But they who disbelieve are in [persistent] denial, While Allah encompasses them from behind.  But this is an honored Qur'an [Inscribed] in a Preserved Slate."  This can be read as a reference to written scripture (i.e. the Bible), which is called the Qur'an, which would be consistent with the Syriac Christian use of the term Qeryana to mean portions of the bible.   Similarly 84:21:  "And when the Qur'an is recited to them, they do not prostrate [to Allah ]?"  Islamic tradition assumes that the Qur'an here means the recitation being given ... but you could just as easily interpret this reference as meaning a reading of the Syriac Biblical scripture.

    So my thinking is that Qur'an probably originally meant the Syriac scripture, but then the Arabic commentary on that scripture was seen as a repetition of the scripture's meaning (essentially like a translation or paraphrased explanation), and ascribed holiness, thus itself being Qur'an (which you could call an Arabic translation or commentary on Syriac scripture).
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #482 - July 28, 2015, 01:34 AM

    ................."But the Qur'an uses a derivative of that Syriac term totally differently!  When it says "Qur'an," it seems to be referring to itself, as a *commentary* on older scripture, or a confirmation of it.  How could that happen?"  .........................

     That is a very important observation Zaotar .,  and it  happens quite often in Quran.  To me it appears that Quran writers are trying to do two things by such commentary..

    1).  To reinforce the faith in the new followers  

    2). To put fear in to the hearts of those who either left  the faith or questioning the faith.

    And  Quran does that  by telling old stories from OT/NT....

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #483 - July 28, 2015, 03:34 PM

    Google "Dake".

    This is a Pentecostal bible commentary used by proper Pentecostal preachers. It has quite a lot in common with mainstream but very different bits!

    It sounds like the Koran is also a commentary! It needs to be studied alongside other bible commentaries and a lot of things might begin to make sense.

    Problem is that this makes the adventures of mo, the Hadith etc just so stories to explain how the leopard got its spots!

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #484 - July 29, 2015, 11:12 PM

    Klingschor - Sources for early Islamic history

    http://research-islam.blogspot.com.au/2015/07/sources-for-early-islamic-history.html
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #485 - July 29, 2015, 11:16 PM

    Tom Holland on the origins of praying five times a day (response to Jonathan Brown)

    http://textuploader.com/adovr
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #486 - July 30, 2015, 12:13 AM

    "Similarly 84:21:  "And when the Qur'an is recited to them, they do not prostrate [to Allah ]?"  Islamic tradition assumes that the Qur'an here means the recitation being given ... but you could just as easily interpret this reference as meaning a reading of the Syriac Biblical scripture."

    What about the Talmud? Isn't the Quran heavily inspired by Jewish scripture?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #487 - July 30, 2015, 12:32 AM

    Quote
    What about the Talmud? Isn't the Quran heavily inspired by Jewish scripture?

    That, too. In part. This is where my little hobbyhorse - that each sura was an independent composition - comes in . . .

    Mr Maida was a whiz at Judaism, possibly an ex-Jew; and so knew Mishnah well enough to subvert the saying about "killing one man is killing the whole world" (5:32). Same with Mr Naml on the story of Solomon and Bilqis of Sheba (sura 27). To my knowledge these are, as you point out, specifically Jewish and have no primary Christian analogues, or even secondary prior to 80 AH / 700 CE.

    Mr Kahf on the other hand had read up on Syriac Christian literature instead. He's the one who regales us with the Seven Sleepers of Ephesus and extracts from Heraclius Imperator's "Alexander Neshana" (sura 18). None of this is found in Judaism, ever.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #488 - July 30, 2015, 12:53 AM

    "Similarly 84:21:  "And when the Qur'an is recited to them, they do not prostrate [to Allah ]?"  Islamic tradition assumes that the Qur'an here means the recitation being given ... but you could just as easily interpret this reference as meaning a reading of the Syriac Biblical scripture."

    What about the Talmud? Isn't the Quran heavily inspired by Jewish scripture?


    Actually I myself don't believe the Qur'an is DIRECTLY inspired by Hebrew-language scripture (from rabbinical Judaism), rather we primarily get the Old Testament stories through the Christian (Syriac Old Testament Peshitta) version of Jewish scripture.  I am not very knowledgeable about the Talmud, but I don't think it ever gets recited like a Qeryana to the congregation.  It's more legal, and is not like a divine revelation used for liturgical purposes.

    So it wouldn't make sense to recite the Talmud to people and have them prostrate in recognition of its divine truthiness.  The Qur'an can only (originally) have been the Christian liturgy amongst Arabic Christians at that time, which would have been read in Syriac (as there was no Arabic scripture).  Secondarily, the Arabic explanation of the Qur'an became understood as itself the Qur'an, and that's exactly how the term became used in the corpus of texts we call the Qur'an (with the Syriac scripture receding into the background and disappearing).

    I would agree that some distinctly Jewish traces make their way into the Qur'an, but they are very few and relatively late.  Same, for example, with Ethiopic traditions and language.  They get in, but that's probably because the Qur'anic composers were quite familiar with a broad set of Semitic Christian traditions and texts (and the Qur'an likewise assumes its audience is familiar with such), and this includes things like polemics against Judaism, as well as Christian understandings of Judaism.

    Btw, Surah al Maida is one of the most interesting examples of "Qur'anification" of Christianity.  The Last Supper is converted into a *miracle* where Jesus calls down a tasty feast from the skies.  That's its significance.  Does this reflect the author's ignorance of the Last Supper?  Not even remotely.  It is a restatement of Christian tradition, eradicating its Jesus-supremacy element while retaining the glorification of Jesus as a true prophet, which is why Jesus's disciples proudly declare themselves "muslims," before demanding their tasty treats.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #489 - July 30, 2015, 01:08 AM

    Very interesting new article by Walid Saleh about "Furqan."  Filled with much rage against Orientalism, but a lot of interesting discussion and argument (some misguided, some significant).

    https://www.academia.edu/14497739/A_Piecemeal_Quran_Furqan_and_its_meaning_in_classical_Islam_and_modern_Quranic_Studies

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #490 - July 30, 2015, 09:51 AM

    Isn't the other tradition here that gets forgotten the Samaritan one?  Hagarism?  Earlier link here to Finkelstein and North Israel?  Judah was not the only tribe!

    It should not be too difficult to trace where various bits have come from.

    I would therefore formally propose that the quran was first composed in the 500's and possibly earlier.  It was edited to later, allowing, for example, for references to Heraclius.

    The quotes on the dome are therefore prequranic and therefore I propose this building is actually a sect of xianity!  I wonder if a huge amount of obvious stuff has been ignored because of the received story of the koran's origins.

    These early mosques facing in different directions may be of this xian sect.

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #491 - July 31, 2015, 06:42 PM

    Patricia Crone's obituary in the Economist: http://www.economist.com/news/obituary/21660065-patricia-crone-scholar-early-islam-and-campaigner-medical-marijuana-died-july-11th
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #492 - July 31, 2015, 06:48 PM

    Quote from: Gabriel Said Reynolds
    Friends, registration for my (FREE) #Quran course with @edXOnline is now available!
    Check it out:  https://www.edx.org/course/introduction-quran-scripture-islam-notredamex-th120-2x

    https://mobile.twitter.com/GabrielSaidR/status/627112726276370432
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #493 - July 31, 2015, 08:36 PM

    Quote
    She had no time for the extreme revisionists, who argued that Muhammad never existed, or that the Koran was a garbled translation of Aramaic Christian texts.


    As I definitely lean that way, is CEMB a City on the Hill for like minded revisionists? :-)

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #494 - July 31, 2015, 09:16 PM

    Moi, you and I post a lot of oblique free-form bollocks, but yours has more substance, just.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #495 - July 31, 2015, 09:24 PM

     Cheesy dance

    Hi
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #496 - August 01, 2015, 02:06 AM

    is CEMB a City on the Hill for like minded revisionists? :-)

    Ooh, now there is an Orientalist trope. Shouldn't it be a Sanctuary in the Wasteland, here? :^)

    Kidding aside, I'd say that was true of these threads at least.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #497 - August 01, 2015, 07:37 PM

    Bad History in r/badhistory: Late Antiquity and the Making of the Islamic World

    https://www.reddit.com/r/badhistory/comments/3ewleu/bad_history_in_rbadhistory_late_antiquity_and_the/
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #498 - August 01, 2015, 09:32 PM

    Quote
    Interestingly, these two texts also tell us that Arab raiders were already striking into Palestine at this point (a similarly early raid was attested to in Iraq as well). This was actually pretty common, since Arabs had been involved in the wars between Rome and Persia for centuries and their raids had been a fact of life for people on the frontier for a very long time. Arabs however had also defended imperial territories from raiders, since many groups served the two great empire of late antiquity as border patrols and as a result had a great deal of influence in the borderlands. It was an interconnected world, even for Arabs deep within Arabia, and violence was a key part of it.


    Link above

    Gore Vidal in Julian has this emperor be very rude about Arab mercenaries, 300 years before.

    Maybe trying to understand Islam is best approached by working out what arabs got up to where and when?  I understand Genghis Khan had a beauty parade of religions to try and work out which one to use imperially.  Did something similar happen in a nascent Arab empire?

    Did Arab traders, including slave traders, and pirates, already all over the place, become the conduits for the spread of Islam, allowing easier conquest by passing on local knowledge, also known as treason and espionage?

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #499 - August 02, 2015, 07:01 AM

    Ooh, now there is an Orientalist trope. Shouldn't it be a Sanctuary in the Wasteland, here? :^)

    Kidding aside, I'd say that was true of these threads at least.


    I am aware of at least three key cities on the hill!  Varanasi, Mecca and Jerusalem.  There are probably more centres of the universes!

    Why is classic anthropocentricity assumed to be a local orientalist idea? :-)


    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #500 - August 02, 2015, 11:26 PM

    Gabriel Said Reynolds - On the Qur'an and the theme of Jews as killers of the prophets

    http://www3.nd.edu/~reynolds/index_files/jews%20as%20killers%20of%20the%20prophets%20final.pdf
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #501 - August 07, 2015, 05:53 PM

    A new article by Gabriel Said Reynolds making the case for an early date for the Qur'an in the light of the Birmingham findings.

    http://www.the-tls.co.uk/tls/public/article1589562.ece
    Quote
    ....
    The upshot of all of these early dates is that the Qur’an may very well date earlier than Uthman, possibly much earlier. It may be time to rethink the story of the Qur’an’s origins, including the traditional dates of Muhammad’s career. In other words, what observers have celebrated as something like evidence of the traditional story of Islam’s origins (the New York Times article argued that the manuscript “offered a moment of unity, and insight, for the world’s 1.6 billion Muslims”) may actually be, when considered carefully, evidence that the story of Islam’s origins is quite unlike what we have imagined.
    ....

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #502 - August 07, 2015, 09:46 PM

    Good article... I think Zaoter had said exactly the same, in the immediate aftermath of the discovery?

    Hi
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #503 - August 07, 2015, 09:57 PM

    Wonderful article. I have to admit it was a little painful to read, even as a former Muslim. I can only imagine the impact this research will have for years to come.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #504 - August 08, 2015, 10:34 AM

    A new article by Gabriel Said Reynolds making the case for an early date for the Qur'an in the light of the Birmingham findings.

    http://www.the-tls.co.uk/tls/public/article1589562.ece

    Discussion on twitter: https://mobile.twitter.com/holland_tom/status/629629829520957440

    And here: https://mobile.twitter.com/GabrielSaidR/status/629624956486156288

    Also: https://mobile.twitter.com/Ballandalus/status/629775642662297600
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #505 - August 12, 2015, 03:15 PM

    A couple of articles mentioned by Ian David Morris on twitter - "Two important articles on why Islam becomes more visible under Abd al-Malik". I'm not sure whether the links have already been posted, but at the risk of repetition:

    Jeremy Johns - Archaeology and the history of early Islam: the first seventy years

    http://www.krc.ox.ac.uk/Publications/Jeremy%20Johns/Johns%202003(a).pdf

    Robert Hoyland - New documentary texts and the early Islamic state

    https://www.academia.edu/3430551/New_Documentary_Texts_and_the_Early_Islamic_State
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #506 - August 12, 2015, 03:52 PM

    Podcast with Klingschor talking about early Islam
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Go4A9OkS7QM
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #507 - August 12, 2015, 04:06 PM

    Good stuff, will catch it all later  Afro

    Hi
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #508 - August 12, 2015, 09:56 PM

    A couple of articles mentioned by Ian David Morris on twitter - "Two important articles on why Islam becomes more visible under Abd al-Malik". I'm not sure whether the links have already been posted, but at the risk of repetition:

    Jeremy Johns - Archaeology and the history of early Islam: the first seventy years

    http://www.krc.ox.ac.uk/Publications/Jeremy%20Johns/Johns%202003(a).pdf

    Robert Hoyland - New documentary texts and the early Islamic state

    https://www.academia.edu/3430551/New_Documentary_Texts_and_the_Early_Islamic_State


    I didn't quite like the feel of the Johns article, possibly because it goes slightly against the grain of everything I've read recently thanks to you guys, about the early years of Islam. It seemed overly speculative, and brimming with a desire to fit everything into the need to show that revisionists are looking at things in a skewed manner, and that 'there is nothing to see here...nothing unusual going on at all...just move on people'.

    The Hoyland one seems delightfully balanced and teaming with information. It has helped me to colour in somewhat, the sketchy picture I have been drawing about this remarkable era... Wonderful stuff, thanks for posting.

    Hoping Zaotar pipes in with his insights on these..

    Hi
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #509 - August 12, 2015, 10:33 PM

    Hoyland is a really good source, but he tends to exaggerate the degree to which the evidence supports the more traditional narratives.  For example, he argues (pp. 406-7) that the early inscriptions are "Qur'anic."  But actually they are all quite generic phrases that nobody would have been surprised by in any monotheistic context.  What is distinctive about them is the *lack* of any Qur'anic (or indeed Islamic) specificity.  No references to the Qur'an, Muhammad, or Islam.  No screeds against Christianity or Judaism.  Yet Hoyland interprets this as 'Qur'anic,' whereas I think the most that can be said is that the Qur'an certainly uses similar generic phrasing.

    Example:  Hoyland cites a dam inscription, dated 58 AH, which uses the phrase 'by God's leave.'  Yes, that short and generic phrase is also used in the Qur'an.  But unless we assume that *any* use of monotheistic Arabic is "Qur'anic," it is a far stretch to use this as proof of Qur'anic piety ... particularly at such a late date.  Does Hoyland think that monotheist Arabs would not have used such phrases in Arabic, such that they could only be uniquely derived from the Qur'an?  How would that make sense?  It's like saying the name "Abdallah" is a Qur'anic name, even though recorded use of that name long predated Islam.

    None of the inscriptions seems to be aware of anything distinctively Islamic.  But Hoyland just glosses over that, as though revisionists were arguing that there was no monotheistic Arabic discourse prior to Abd al Malik's time ... the revisionist point is exactly the opposite, such discourse was omnipresent, but shows remarkably little Islamic or Qur'anic specificity.  Nobody argues the Qur'an emerged out of nothing!  The entire argument is that it emerged slowly out of such discourse, along with a process of compiling, composing, and redacting surahs.

    Hoyland concludes that "The reticence of the early Islamic state with regard to religious declarations reflects the fact that the first Muslim rulers did not feel obliged or had no pressing need to proclaim publicly the tenets of their belief."  How does he know that?  Why would the Islamic state (and private individuals) write so much and yet NOT proclaim the specific tenets of their belief?  Why were they so indifferent to doing so?  It's not as though they didn't write about religious matters.  They did.  They wrote about the 'commander of the believers' all the time.  They just didn't write in an Islamic way until about 685.  It's as though it didn't occur to them that they were following a separate religion to proclaim, which is probably exactly what they thought.

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