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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #300 - May 13, 2015, 08:58 AM


      There is some good stuff at that conference..  It is not completely new way of thinking on the origin of Islam but it gives different out look  

    10:45–12:30 – Session 4: ... Carlos A. Segovia "A Messianic Controversy behind the Making of Muḥammad as the Last Prophet?";  Respondent: David S. Powers  

    The abstract  of that paper says
    Quote
    Abstract:

    Still in its infancy because of the too conservative views and methods assumed by most scholars working in it since the mid-19th century, the field of early Islamic studies, however, is one in which the very basic questions must nowadays be addressed with decision.

    There is, to start with, no evidence that Islam was the main cause behind the Arab take over of the Near East in the 7th century. Nor is there evidence that the latter followed a linear development. Just as it is difficult to speak of a unified Arab state until 692, it is hard to regard Islam as a new religion before that date.

    How then should we reinterpret the struggle for a new Arab supremacy in the Arabian Peninsula after the abolishment of the Himyarite, Jafnid and Nasrid kingdoms in the late 6th and early 7th centuries?

    Which was the political and religious background of Muhammad's eschatological visions in the 610s? How should we read his politics in the 620s and the early 630s and the opposition that he matched with amongst other Arab leaders?

    What can we make of the fact that from the 630s to the early 690s not everyone in the Hijaz, Syria and Iraq claimed to follow him?

    How must we represent the religion of the Arab groups involved in the afore-described events before the emergence of Islam as a new religion in the time of 'Abd al-Malik and his son al-Walid (692-715)?

    What can be deduced from the fact that several South-Arabic inscriptions dating to the mid-6th century appear to contain a Christological formula akin to that found in the Qur'an?

    Why is it that the first documented occurrence of the word Islam speaks of Jesus to the Christians of Palestine and is located in a building that seems to reproduce a Christian church within the remains of a Jewish sanctuary?

    Were the first Muslims allies of the Jews, as has sometime been said, ecumenical monotheists as has more recently been proposed, or non-trinitarian supersessionist Christians who tried to publicly affirm their own religious beliefs?

    And which was their political agenda, anyway? Lastly, when is the collection of the Qur'an to be dated and what kind of new document did their editors attempt to produce?

    Our purpose in this book is to explore these and other related issues from a critical-historical standpoint and to offer new insights on the gradual formation of the Islamic state and the likewise gradual making of the Islamic faith. For to overlook them would be like explaining the emergence of the earliest Christ-believing groups by exclusively relying on the author of Luke-Acts, who offers a rather monochrome picture of Christian beginnings centred upon what s/he retrospectively imagined as Paul’s mission; or like accepting the Mishnaic and Talmudic legends about Yavneh as the actual birthplace of Rabbinic Judaism.

    If some progress is to be made in the future in the field of early Islamic studies, scholars working in it should abandon once and for all the grand narrative of Islam's origins set forth in the early Islamic sources and confront the complex material evidence that we do have about the dawn of Islam with an open, both critical and imaginative, mind.  

    On any subject., whether it is science.,  or  history.,  theology, physiology, biology, cosmology of Quran  .. asking questions is the first step to  make some progress..

    but allah says in the book

    Quote
    (1) Rather you wish to put questions to your Apostle, as Musa was questioned before; and whoever adopts unbelief instead of faith, he indeed has lost the right direction of the way. .........(Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #108)
     
    (2) O you who believe! do not put questions about things which if declared to you may trouble you, and if you question about them when the Quran is being revealed, they shall be declared to you; Allah pardons this, and Allah is Forgiving, Forbearing.................... (    Al-Maeda, Chapter #5, Verse #101)
     
    (3)  people before you indeed asked such questions, and then became disbelievers on account of them. ..........(Al-Maeda, Chapter #5, Verse #102)

      
    So you rascals ....

    READ QURAN, READ HADITH, READ SUNNAH   follow the footsteps of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH), RA..SAW..DA..DE.... Sallallahu Ala Muhammad Sallallahu Alayhi Wasallam).. marry some 13 women in 13 years.. Eat well,  grow pot bellies,   preach Islam,  enjoy the life and work for Jannah  and..and  stop asking the questions about allah book    finmad   otherwise hell fire to you in this life and after this life..  

    fools talk nonsense and each year   brain wash 1000s of 17 year old kids across the globe in so called prayer houses of Islam .. the Mosques

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #301 - May 13, 2015, 09:37 AM

    I would seriously look elsewhere - nw Africa , India- Persia , China , Constantinople to understand the beginnings of Islam and the Arab empire. Maybe it is 95% imported to Arabia?

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #302 - May 13, 2015, 09:43 AM

    A train service has just been taken over by a new company, and they are in the process of rebadging and rebranding . There is a sign "hi we're new around here" when the reality is this is a near 40 year old train that has been refurbished and some of the infrastructure is possibly 150 years old.

    Maybe new religions are veneers and rebranding?

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #303 - May 13, 2015, 09:47 AM

    Is the new language the core rebranding and advertising medium?

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #304 - May 13, 2015, 11:47 AM

    A train service has just been taken over by a new company, and they are in the process of rebadging and rebranding . There is a sign "hi we're new around here" when the reality is this is a near 40 year old train that has been refurbished and some of the infrastructure is possibly 150 years old.

    Maybe new religions are veneers and rebranding?

    Guinness as an Irish beer rather fits this model.

    An English beer style (porter) brewed by an Anglo-Irish company based in London. At one point they apparently considered severing all connections with Ireland, and rebranding Guinness as an English beer.

    They did the opposite, and the rest is history.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #305 - May 13, 2015, 11:50 AM

    Sorry to derail the thread. I know more about beer than the Koran.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #306 - May 13, 2015, 03:03 PM

    Greg Fisher - Kingdoms or Dynasties? Arabs, History, and Identity Before Islam

    http://www.academia.edu/1404651/Kingdoms_or_Dynasties_Arabs_History_and_Identity_Before_Islam
    Quote
    This study examines the evidence for three small but prominent groups of Arabs in the fifth and sixth centuries—the Jafnids, allied to the Roman Empire, the Naṣrids, allied to the Sasanians, and the Ḥujrids, client rulers of the kingdom of Ḥimyar, but equally subject to pressure from the Romans and Sasanians. It explores the numerous problems that have impeded efforts to produce a balanced assessment of these peoples, including source-critical, historiographical, and ideological pressures. It also highlights the long-held attachment of each group to a “people,” the Jafnids to Ghassān, the Naṣrids to Lakhm, and the Ḥujrids to Kinda, connections that have produced a misleading impression of kingdoms or stable polities under each name. The evidence only allows us to describe family dynasties composed of small groups of individuals. Finally, highlighting the importance of the framework of imperial power in any analysis of the late antique east, it offers some thoughts on what the evidence discussed here suggests for our understanding of Arab identities before Islam.


    More articles by Greg Fisher: http://carleton-ca.academia.edu/GregFisher
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #307 - May 13, 2015, 04:22 PM

    " Hence the following dilemma: we cannot say that the general framework given by the Muslim
    tradition is right and, at the same time, take seriously the Qur’ānic text. If we take the Qur’ān seriously (namely, if we do not bind it on the Procrustean bed that Muslim tradition prepared for it), we should indeed admit at least one of the following scenarios.
    First hypothesis: the Ḥiǧāz at the time of the Prophet had a level of Christian presence and literary
    culture which was comparable to the cities or monasteries of Syria and Palestine: there were Christians in the Ḥiǧāz, Christian ideas were known, and it was also possible to meet there the kind of scribe who was able to write such texts as (among other examples) surah 3, 5, 18 and 19 (and this pertains to the so-called Meccan and Medinan suras).
    Second hypothesis: at least in part (namely, all the time, or only before the emigration to Yaṯrib), Muḥammad’s career did not take place in the Ḥiǧāz, but further north, for example in Trans-Jordan or Palestine.
    Third hypothesis: at the time of the Prophet, there was a Christian presence in the Ḥiǧāz, but the situation was not comparable to Syria or Palestine, or even to what we find further north in the Arabian Peninsula. It was, rather, the subject of a typical process of acculturation. Therefore, if some scholarly Qur’ānic passages were written at this time (or earlier?), the “scholars” who composed them were certainly people situated further north (but maybe also in al-Ḥīra), with whom the Ḥiǧāzī Arabs maintained relations.
     Fourth hypothesis: we should disconnect, more decidedly, the redaction of the Qur’ān and Muḥammad’s career, and acknowledge that a (more or less substantial) part of the Qur’ān was written after the death of Muḥammad (and maybe also, for a smaller part, after ‘Uṯmān?).

    Regarding the scholarly passages of the Qur’ān, a model combining the last two hypotheses seems the most plausible solution. "


    that's all good, but how to prove that, can manuscript study sheds more light on that ?



    I think it is not so much manuscript study (which implies comparing early manuscripts) as it is textual analysis.  Unfortunately it is difficult to extrapolate specific historical information from such analysis, as you say, which is why Dye lists multiple possible hypotheses.  People want better information on 'what happened,' but the truth is we are much better positioned to analyze the text itself, suspending judgment about 'how it really was,' and then secondarily consider what that might imply. 

    Generally speaking, I am pretty pessimistic about our ability to get clear historical information on early Islam relative to our ability to analyze how, when, and by whom the Qur'an was composed and compiled.  The same is true, by the way, of early Christianity.  The fact is that our historical sources truly suck compared to the types of textual analysis we can do.  And that is something we may have to reconcile ourselves to, rather than claiming artificial historical certainty (which has long plagued Early Islamic and Qur'anic studies).  Just as we have made amazing progress in analyzing the Gospels, but still have extremely limited information on the historical Jesus, I believe the same result will likely obtain in Early Islamic studies relative to the Qur'an and Muhammad.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #308 - May 13, 2015, 06:01 PM

    But moving from the revealed final word of God to don't know is huge!

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #309 - May 13, 2015, 06:07 PM

    But moving from "the revealed final word of God to  don't know is huge!"

    well  that is a good one moi,  let me rewrite that to use it elsewhere...

    But moving from "the revealed final word of God to  "Allah knows the best" is a huge jump!"

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #310 - May 14, 2015, 05:39 PM

    Another forthcoming conference

    The Eastern Caucasus from Late Antiquity to Early Islam

    http://www.orinst.ox.ac.uk/research/nizami-ganjavi/news
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #311 - May 15, 2015, 12:10 AM

    The Dome of the Rock – reading its iconographic project

    http://squarekufic.com/2014/09/12/the-dome-of-the-rock-reading-its-iconographic-project/?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #312 - May 15, 2015, 11:59 AM

    The Arabic Bible before Islam – review of Sidney H. Griffith’s The Bible in Arabic

    http://marginalia.lareviewofbooks.org/arabic-bible-islam/


    The Qur'an according to itself - Gabriel Said Reynolds on Anne-Sylvie Boisliveau’s Le Coran par lui-même

    http://marginalia.lareviewofbooks.org/quran-according-gabriel-reynolds/


    The Impact of Aramaic (especially Syriac) on the Qur’ān

    https://iqlid.files.wordpress.com/2015/01/draft-rel-compass-aramaic-syriac-quran-ee.pdf


    Guy Stroumsa - Jewish Christianity and Islamic Origins

    http://www.academia.edu/9997797/Jewish_Christianity_and_Islamic_Origins


    Emran El-Badawi - The Development of Rahbaniyyah between the Qur'an, Hadith and Church Canon

    http://www.myjurnal.my/filebank/published_article/25940/Article__1.PDF
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #313 - May 15, 2015, 01:47 PM

    What do we have?  A few disparate "arab" warlords win or are on the winning side of various battles.

    Later on, other battles are claimed.

    Groups write a history of themselves after the fact and claim it is all god's will etc etc.  A holy book is introduced.

    Preexisting divisions, for example Sunni, Shia, are never quite papered over although the imposed veneer of the ummah is quite successful - but not everyone are arabs!

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #314 - May 15, 2015, 01:53 PM

    Quote
    Josiah is only known through biblical texts. No reference to him exists in surviving texts of the period from Egypt or Babylon, and no clear archaeological evidence, such as inscriptions bearing his name, has been found.[4]

    According to the Bible, Josiah was the son of King Amon and Jedidah, the daughter of Adaiah of Bozkath.[5] His grandfather Manasseh was one of the kings blamed for turning away from the worship of Yahweh. Manasseh adapted the Temple for idolatrous worship. Josiah's great-grandfather was King Hezekiah who was a noted reformer.

    Josiah had four sons: Johanan, and Eliakim (born c. 634 BC) by Zebudah the daughter of Pedaiah of Rumah; (Eliakim had his name changed by Pharaoh Necho of Egypt to Jehoiakim 2 Kings 23:34) and Mattanyahu (c. 618 BC) and Shallum (633/632 BC) both by Hamutal, the daughter of Jeremiah of Libnah.[6]

    Shallum succeeded Josiah as king of Judah, under the name Jehoahaz.[7] Shallum was succeeded by Eliakim, under the name Jehoiakim,[8] who was succeeded by his own son Jeconiah;[9] then Jeconiah was succeeded to the throne by Mattanyahu, under the name Zedekiah.[10] Zedekiah was the last king of Judah before the kingdom was conquered by Babylon and the people exiled.



    In the eighteenth year of his rule, Josiah ordered the High Priest Hilkiah to use the tax money which had been collected over the years to renovate the temple. It was during this time that Hilkiah discovered the Book of the Law. While Hilkiah was clearing the treasure room of the Temple he claimed to have found a scroll described as "the book of the Law"[5] or as "the book of the law of Yahweh by the hand of Moses". The phrase "the book of the Torah" (ספר התורה) in 2 Kings 22:8 is identical to the phrase used in Joshua 1:8 and 8:34 to describe the sacred writings that Joshua had received from Moses. The book is not identified in the text as the Torah and many scholars believe this was either a copy of the Book of Deuteronomy or a text that became a part of Deuteronomy.[11]


    Hilkiah brought this scroll to Josiah's attention...


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josiah

    Of course, Hilkiah might have written  this book he discovered himself!  And As Josiah hasn't been found the whole thing might be made up!  Might the alleged history of the Koran and Islam also be all made up?

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #315 - May 17, 2015, 12:08 AM

    The Impact of Aramaic (especially Syriac) on the Qur’ān
    https://iqlid.files.wordpress.com/2015/01/draft-rel-compass-aramaic-syriac-quran-ee.pdf

    PDF doesn't say, so had to google: This is by Emran Elbadawi, Religion Compass 8.7 (July 2014), 220–228.

    Parts of it read like a low-postgraduate book report. Not that that's a bad thing, as such; but this paragraph alone would drop the grade from A to A minus if I were grading it:
    Quote
    During the 1920s a number of scholarly works were published which examined
    the Qur’ān’s language in light of Syriac. Alphonse Mingana set the foundation for
    research on the Qur’ān in light of Syriac in a study entitled “Syriac Influence on the Style
    of the Kur’ān.” He provides a brief typology and some examples of Syriac words used in
    the Qur’ān, asserting that 70% of the Qur’ān’s “foreign vocabulary” is Syriac in origin.1
    Mingana’s study, however, would have had a greater impact on the field had he followed
    it up with further research
    .

    Can the author prove this? Does the author have a magic mirror in which Mingana, himself, followed up with more research? because there actually WAS further research; it was done by Arthur Jeffery a long while ago, and we can all read it as "Foreign Vocabulary of the Qur'an" - probably even for legally free download, given how long ago this was - as this author notes in the very next paragraph. I don't see how Mingana's possible contributions would outweigh Jeffery's actual contribution - or Margoliouth's after that ("Some Additions to Jeffery's Foreign Vocabulary", reprinted Ibn Warraq, What the Koran Really Says). Perhaps Elbadawi can deliver his research into parallel universes to the physics department.

    It is good to have a summary of his own work at hand, but... this was distracting. (Sorry in advance for being snippy. Maybe I should have posted that to the Rant board.)
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #316 - May 17, 2015, 04:13 AM

    I'll take a moment to chortle at Zimriel's comments.  Zim I actually asked El-Badawi to post his article up on Academia, and when he did and I read it, was sadly underwhelmed.  "Low-postgraduate book report," man that's a low blow, but probably accurate.  EB pulls his punches.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #317 - May 17, 2015, 09:19 AM

    I'll take a moment to chortle at Zimriel's comments.  Zim I actually asked El-Badawi to post his article up on Academia, and when he did and I read it, was sadly underwhelmed.  "Low-postgraduate book report," man that's a low blow, but probably accurate.  EB pulls his punches.


    For All Times and Places A Humanistic Reception of the Quran

    Well  he being a professor., reading the above article with selective verses tells me his biased approach towards his Western Islamic understanding of Quran..  Any fool who considers any  book is  from some super natural origin doesn't deserve to be a faculty member in an university that get funds from tax payers money..  

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #318 - May 17, 2015, 09:48 AM

    Interesting link.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #319 - May 17, 2015, 10:19 AM


    thanks for the link,  very interesting indeed,  he has an Arabic name, is he Muslim ?

    https://iqlid.files.wordpress.com/2015/01/draft-rel-compass-aramaic-syriac-quran-ee.pdf

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #320 - May 17, 2015, 10:23 AM

    For All Times and Places A Humanistic Reception of the Quran

    Well  he being a professor., reading the above article with selective verses tells me his biased approach towards his Western Islamic understanding of Quran..  Any fool who considers any  book is  from some super natural origin doesn't deserve to be a faculty member in an university that get funds from tax payers money..  

    I started a thread about El-Badawi last year that touched on this:

    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=27156.0

    I suppose the question I'd ask is how Islam is ever going to change and take on ideas from modern scholarship without having people like El-Badawi trying to reconcile the scholarship and the religion. But then that isn't necessarily a formula for coherent thinking.

    Edit: hatoush - yes he's a Muslim.

    Quote from: Zaotar on the old thread
    Badawi is pretty good stuff ... he's about as good and critical as you can expect for a believing Muslim.

    I disagree with him in exactly the way that review criticizes him ... he still clings to the traditional narrative about the Qur'an's composition.  But overall, he's one of very few believing Muslims writing Qur'anic scholarship that's actually of much interest to non-believers.

    As Badawi points out, it's always surprising how comparatively flexible and critical the Muslims were, before they became frozen into theological orthodoxy ("inimitable Qur'an" with its "perfect divine Arabic" in seven Qira'at handed down straight from Allah).  There was a period when Muslims were permitted to think critically about their religion and the Qur'an, but it didn't last very long.  One can only hope that guys like Badawi will help bring some form of this critical attitude back.


    Some more links

    His blog: https://iqlid.wordpress.com

    On Twitter: https://mobile.twitter.com/emrane

    On academia.edu: http://uh.academia.edu/EmranElBadawi
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #321 - May 20, 2015, 02:53 PM

    Coinage of the early Umayyads

    Clive Foss - Coins of Two Realms

    https://www.saudiaramcoworld.com/issue/201503/coins.of.two.realms.htm
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #322 - May 24, 2015, 01:43 PM

    A Messianic Controversy Behind the Making of Muḥammad as the Last Prophet?



    "The Quran is often interpreted as displaying a twofold contradictory attitude towards Christianity that osci-llates between its approval and its dismissal. But rather than just two (pro- and anti-Christian, respectively) there are four types of such texts in the Quran: Christian formulas (often with anti-Jewish overtones), pro-Christian compromise formulas, anti-Christian polemical formulas, and anti-Christian- as well as anti-Jewish supersessionist formulas. How should these be studied? Did Muammad try to get theological support from some Christian group or groups, but then distanced himself from them when they rejected his teachings? This paper offers an alternative hypothesis, according to which these formulas witness to an ongoing theolo-gical debate that took place between the 610s and the 710s Ð a debate out of which Islam emerged as an out-come. It also explores the way in which Jesus messiahship was then tentatively replaced by Muammad's messiahship and examines whether he and/or the anonymous Quranic prophet was already identified Ð like Jesus Ð with the apocalyptic Son of Man"

    https://www.academia.edu/3372907/A_Messianic_Controversy_Behind_the_Making_of_Mu%E1%B8%A5ammad_as_the_Last_Prophet_2015_Conference_Paper

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #323 - May 26, 2015, 04:58 PM

    Tom Holland - De-radicalising Muhammad (talk at Hay Festival): http://www.bbc.co.uk/events/effgwh/acts/agngfx#p02s6j17

    Quote
    An excerpt of my @hayfestival talk on de-radicalising Muhammad is here. Surprise, surprise, it leaves out the meat.

    I hope @hayfestival will be putting up the full video of my De-radicalising Muhammad talk soon.

    @holland_tom is the text available to read?

    @SamuelUsher I'm still waiting to see if there's a newspaper editor with sufficient courage & commitment to free speech to publish it...

    https://mobile.twitter.com/holland_tom/status/603221239465943040


    Quote
    ....
    One festival goer remarked feeling dejected by such talks. Yet the truth helps us see what may come, and at least puts things in the proper perspective. She had just come out of Tom Holland’s talk on deradicalising Mohammed. Forget the reformation Ayaan Hirsi Ali talks of – the salafists are that historical parallel and the internet has taken on the role of the printing press. If we wish to deny Jihadists the role model of a violent warrior prophet we have to acknowledge that the historical Mohammed hardly exists. Instead we rely on bibliography and sayings collected two hundred years after his death.

    This is not without challenges – it questions a literal interpretation of Mohammed’s life. It suggests that accounts may be wrong, unreliable or deliberately bogus. Or as Tom put it: rather than treated symbolically they started in modern times to be taken literally. An academic understanding can reveal and centre Mohammed in his time – and if we can get over the “Great man” idea of historical figures with him – we might end Mohammed as the pin up for bloody jihadists to emulate.

    Yet the real catalyst for peace and the transformation of ideas in the Middle East will have to be a despair of bloodshed. A point which might take way too many lives in the years to come. Tom mentioned the thirty years war. Where I differ, he does not think ground troops would help the situation against ISIS. In the thirty years war great powers got involved, but the bloodshed escalated rather than helped. Hearing Tom speak you can feel the emotion as he talks of the people being killed, and historical sites threatened. After the talk people spoke about his gentility. They warmed to him during the talk.

    In the social media and blogosphere exchanges to do with Islam, I cannot help but feel that is the spirit we need more of, even if we disagree with each other. 
    ....

    https://homoeconomicusnet.wordpress.com/2015/05/25/hay-festival-tom-holland-gives-christopher-hitchens-lecture/
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #324 - May 26, 2015, 06:04 PM

    I'm not sure whether I've already posted this...

    Gabriel Said Reynolds - On the Qur'anic accusation of scriptural falsification (tahrif) and Christian anti-Jewish polemic

    http://www3.nd.edu/~reynolds/index_files/scriptural%20falsification.pdf
    Quote
    ....
    This concern with the Jews is striking. The Qur'an addresses the Christians in a handful of passages scattered among its chapters, but it addresses the Jews regularly and repeatedly. Why would this be when in the late antique Middle East Jews were few and far between, but Christians were everywhere, from North Africa to Syria to Iraq, and when the great powers of the day, Sasanian Persia excepted, were Christian states?

    Islamic tradition, of course, has an answer to this question: the Prophet Muhammad lived among Jewish tribes in the city of Medina during the second half of his prophetic career. But how much confidence can we place in this answer? The traditional biography of the Prophet seems to be—at least in part—exegetical,'*^ and so it would seem circular to rely on it in establishing the Qur'an's historical context. Outside of this biography there is no compelling evidence of Jewish settlement in Medina.''^ Some early Arabic poetry is attributed to Jews such as al-Samaw'al b. "^Adiya, but this poetry is never reported in early sources—Jewish or otherwise—but only in later Islamic sources. Josephus {Jewish Antiquities, 15:9:3) refers to Herod dispatching a group of men to join a Roman campaign to Yemen in 26-24 B.C., but he says nothing more of their fate. Later pre-Islamic Jewish literature has essentially nothing to say of Jews in the Hijâz. The Talmud refers occasionally to Arabia, but then there is no reason to conclude that by Arabia it means the Arabian Peninsula, let alone the Hijâz.''^

    Meanwhile, the physical evidence for Jewish settlement in the Hijâz is remarkably meager. A burial inscription in the Nabataean city of Madâ'in Sâlih (ancient Hegra, modern-day al-Hijr) refers to a Judaean, who may or may not have been a Jew (the name of the deceased, Shubaytu son of ^Aliu, is not obviously Jewish). Otherwise, a handful of inscriptions, mainly around Madâ'in Sâlih and Dedan (modern-day al-^Ulâ), contain names that may or may not be Jewish. ^° Even if all of these inscriptions indeed reflect the name of Jews, they certainly do not constitute evidence of a Jewish city, as Medina was supposed to have been. More likely they reflect the presence of foreign Jewish merchants. In any case, we are still quite some distance from Medina—Madâ'in Sâlih and Dedan are 350 and 320 kilometers north of Medina respectively. South of Medina Jews are not found again before the extreme southern regions of the Peninsula, modern-day Yemen. In Medina itself no material evidence of a Jewish presence has been discovered.^'

    These are just brief observations on a matter—material evidence for the origins of Islam in the Arabian Peninsula—that can be handled in depth only by specialists.'^ I am not one of them, but then my point in making these observations is simply to highlight the absence of any compelling evidence for the Jews of Medina.. The absence of evidence for traditional ideas does not prove anything, of course. Yet among the things that remain unproven are the traditional ideas themselves.^-' Accordingly, we should not assume that the Qur'an's concern with the Jews reflects Muhammad's difficult experiences with them in Medina.

    While we lack historical evidence on this point, we do have literary evidence that suggests that the Qur'an's fascination with Jewish perfidy is rooted in the tradition of Syriac typological exegesis. The devotion of the Syriac Fathers to finding Jesus Christ in the Old Testament led them to write against Jews, who do not find him there. For our purposes it is noteworthy that the Syriac Fathers did so even though Jews hardly constituted a serious social or political threat in their context, be that Mesopotamia in the fourth (in the case of Aphrahat and Ephrem) or sixth (in the case of Jacob) century or Antioch (in the case of Isaac) in the fifth century. This conclusion does not mean, of course, that the Qur'an was the product of a Syriac-speaking Cbristian community. Instead, it suggests that the Qur'an creatively applied an established literary technique for the advancement of its particular religious doctrine.


  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #325 - May 26, 2015, 06:38 PM



    Gabriel Said Reynolds et al - New Perspectives on the Qur'an: The Qur'an in its historical context 2

    https://serdargunes.files.wordpress.com/2008/05/reynolds-the-quran-in-its-historical-context-2.pdf
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #326 - May 27, 2015, 01:09 PM

    The full video of Tom Holland's talk at the Hay Festival

    https://www.hayfestival.com/p-9673-tom-holland.aspx
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #327 - May 27, 2015, 01:23 PM

    The full video of Tom Holland's talk at the Hay Festival

    https://www.hayfestival.com/p-9673-tom-holland.aspx

     Thanks .. That is a good one zeca..

    And the heading of it is THE CHRISTOPHER HITCHENS LECTURE: DE-RADICALISING MUHAMMAD., let us put the youtube on it..

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5slk97ss2Q

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #328 - May 27, 2015, 02:21 PM

    https://mobile.twitter.com/iandavidmorris/status/603559578509438977
    Quote from: Ian David Morris
    Nöldeke's influence has been great, but not always good. Here's Shoemaker, from "Death of a Prophet": 


    Shoemaker on Nöldeke: http://www.iandavidmorris.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Shoemaker-on-Noeldeke-and-Ewald.pdf
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #329 - May 27, 2015, 04:02 PM

    Thanks .. That is a good one zeca..

    And the heading of it is THE CHRISTOPHER HITCHENS LECTURE: DE-RADICALISING MUHAMMAD., let us put the youtube on it..

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5slk97ss2Q



    excellent video, i have to admit, i was rather a neo-traditionalist, but now i come to the conclusion that we don't really know much about Muhammed , or what was early Islam :(
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