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Theme Changer

 Topic: Fears about the afterlife

 (Read 10252 times)
  • 12 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Fears about the afterlife
     OP - October 23, 2014, 11:51 AM

    Hi everyone,
    I've been reading the occasional thread on this forum for a few years but i'm a first time poster. I'm a 20 year old agnostic and have been interested in Islam for the past 4 years or so. Most of that time I got my most of my information from anti-Muslim bigots which created a perception that 100% of the Qur'an was immoral and illogical. The past year I've widened my sources and have seen arguments from Muslim apologists (mainly Hamza Tzortzis) that appear somewhat convincing.

    I'm terrified of the idea of eternal punishment for myself and everyone I love. I think this is leading to some form of confirmation bias, like a "what if it's true" sentiment towards Islam. I've watched countless hours of videos on the topic, both from Muslim and non-Muslim sources (Klingschor, TheRationalizer, StopSpamming1, debates etc). I acknowledge most of the "scientific miracles" in the Qur'an have been debunked and I'm doubtful on the inimitability claim of the Qur'an (Hamza Tzortzis can barely speak ancient Arabic). It's just in debates Hamza always seems to wriggle his way out of anything. I still can't shake the fear of Hell and it's the worst feeling. It makes me feel sick and I feel like breaking down sometimes.

    Sorry for the long post. I'm not sure what I want out of this but any input would be appreciated. Peace from Australia. 
  • Fears about the afterlife
     Reply #1 - October 23, 2014, 12:01 PM

    Hi everyone,
    I've been reading the occasional thread on this forum for a few years but i'm a first time poster. I'm a 20 year old agnostic and have been interested in Islam for the past 4 years or so. Most of that time I got my most of my information from anti-Muslim bigots which created a perception that 100% of the Qur'an was immoral and illogical. The past year I've widened my sources and have seen arguments from Muslim apologists (mainly Hamza Tzortzis) that appear somewhat convincing.

    I'm terrified of the idea of eternal punishment for myself and everyone I love. I think this is leading to some form of confirmation bias, like a "what if it's true" sentiment towards Islam. I've watched countless hours of videos on the topic, both from Muslim and non-Muslim sources (Klingschor, TheRationalizer, StopSpamming1, debates etc). I acknowledge most of the "scientific miracles" in the Qur'an have been debunked and I'm doubtful on the inimitability claim of the Qur'an (Hamza Tzortzis can barely speak ancient Arabic). It's just in debates Hamza always seems to wriggle his way out of anything. I still can't shake the fear of Hell and it's the worst feeling. It makes me feel sick and I feel like breaking down sometimes.

    Sorry for the long post. I'm not sure what I want out of this but any input would be appreciated. Peace from Australia. 


    Hi, welcome in!  parrot

    The truth claims about hell in religions are a scary thing.

    Question to ask is, how do I know that the god of Islam is real? If not real then other gods who may be angry at you for not believing in them might send you to their version of hell anyway.

    Another thing to consider below.

  • Fears about the afterlife
     Reply #2 - October 23, 2014, 12:15 PM

    Hi everyone,
    I've been reading the occasional thread on this forum for a few years but i'm a first time poster. I'm a 20 year old agnostic and have been interested in Islam for the past 4 years or so. Most of that time I got my most of my information from anti-Muslim bigots which created a perception that 100% of the Qur'an was immoral and illogical. The past year I've widened my sources and have seen arguments from Muslim apologists (mainly Hamza Tzortzis) that appear somewhat convincing.
    .........

    Sorry for the long post. I'm not sure what I want out of this but any input would be appreciated. Peace from Australia. 

     Hello questioner  greetings and my good wishes to you.. welcome to CEMB..

    What do you think is the BEST SOURCE TO LEARN ISLAM & TO BECOME/LIVE LIKE THE  BEST POSSIBLE MUSLIM as long as we live?

    Can't you find that? why read bigots who hate Islam or Apologists who show everything in Islam is rosy?

    anyways please continue to read and write..

    with best wishes
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Fears about the afterlife
     Reply #3 - October 23, 2014, 12:59 PM

    Thanks for the welcome  Smiley It seems a lot easier to find bias sources of information rather than objective ones, but I have been doing my best. Do you have any links to some objective reasons to either accept or reject Islam? I'm easily convinced and in debates I often find myself believing whoever's turn it is to speak lol. It is for this reason that I'd rather trust the consensus of philosophers, historians, linguists and scientists who have studied Islam and made a conclusion about it than my own.

    Anyway thanks for the replies guys Smiley. It's impossible to talk to this people that don't understand Islam. It feels nice that people who understands this topic can give me personal advice.
  • Fears about the afterlife
     Reply #4 - October 23, 2014, 01:04 PM

    I still can't shake the fear of Hell and it's the worst feeling. It makes me feel sick and I feel like breaking down sometimes.


    Hi and welcome Smiley

    This is a video that helped me a great deal a few years ago when I also suffered anxiety about Hell.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XaL7CkQaQpU
  • Fears about the afterlife
     Reply #5 - October 23, 2014, 01:11 PM

    ......... Do you have any links to some objective reasons to either accept or reject Islam? ..............


    well start with Quran.,   then go to Hadith .. The Sunnah of Prophet of Islam.. and then go through  Early, medieval and 17-20th century  Islamic History

    If you would like to read.,  I can provide you links and free books  and and if you have time I would ague you to watch all videos of QualiaSoup along with the one Abu Ali mentioned in his post..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Fears about the afterlife
     Reply #6 - October 23, 2014, 01:39 PM

    Welcome home  bunny parrot  bunny
  • Fears about the afterlife
     Reply #7 - October 23, 2014, 01:50 PM

    Please see Debunking Jahannam: Why Islamic Hell Is Not Real. Also going to throw in Abu Ali's signature.

    Hell is an absurd & wicked fiction. You're not a bad person for rejecting something that's cruel, irrational, unjust & lacks evidence. You have nothing to fear. Nothing to feel ashamed about. Enjoy your life. Do the best you can. Make yourself & others happy.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Fears about the afterlife
     Reply #8 - October 23, 2014, 06:45 PM

    Do you have any links to some objective reasons to either accept or reject Islam?


    So I thought I'd expand on the above, because I honestly meant these to be arguments.

    1) The quran:

    The quran claims itself to be the perfect uncorrupted word of god. That's it's biggest flaw. It invites challenge in a way other holy texts don't, and is really to arrogant for it's own good. The level is enough that it doesn't have the flexibility needed to stand the test of time. The fact that it doesn't have this flexibility, and that it needs it in the first place, is an argument against it in my opinion.

    2) Sanity

    There's only so much a human being can reasonably be held accountable for when it comes to spiritual matters. There's a verse in the quran which says allah has not given us two hearts. I personally view this as metaphorical, not literal. We view and believe certain things a certain way. I cannot at the same time believe in the quran while seeing flaws in it.

    3) Reality

    The quran, like all the other holy texts, claims to be the word of god. The way to verify this is testing it, see if it stacks up. Quite frankly it doesn't. Dust devils and jinns, spontaneous human creation, great flood, there's a lot to choose from, but I'll pick a few.

    The story of the arc and the great flood. This would have happened around 4000 years ago. It's quite simply impossible for the number of races, ethnicities and the huge amount of genetic traits to come from one incestuous family in just 4000 years. It cannot happen. Something else that puts a hole in the story is the amount of people who were thriving at this point. God flooded the entire world. Except for the Chinese who were developing at an incredible rate and remained unaffected from a global flood that wiped out every human on the planet. The Japanese were also unaffected. And the Africans. And the Europeans. And the Native Americans. And the Aztecs. And the South Americans. And most of the middle east.  The flood never happened. It's not real.

    The quran teaches that humans were created from clay in a specific creation. If you're to count on the hadiths, then it's just even more ludicrous. We know the first human was not a 90 foot tall clay giant. Even if you don't take the hadiths into account, it also doesn't account for evolution, the proof of which is overwhelming. Nor does it account for the number of people today who have Neanderthal DNA in them from before the Neanderthals went extinct. Everything I know to be proven fact contradicts the claims of the quran. The only logical conclusion I can come to is that it was a story told by ancient societies because they didn't have any answers. Adam never existed. It's not real.

    The sun orbits the Earth...yeah, we've known that's bullshit for a few centuries now.

    It says in the quran that in the embryo/foetus the bones are the first thing to form. "So we made the clot a morsel, so we made the morsel bones, so we clothed the bones (with) meat". This is wrong. The skeleton is actually among the last to be formed. You'd think the all knowing creator of everything would realise this. It's wrong.

    The stars are missiles to be hurled at jinns. Or they hunt demons. I haven't read the quran in a while so I can't remember the exact quote, but you can look it up to see exactly what it says. This is also wrong. The stars are just stars, they do the exact same thing as the star we orbit, the sun.

    Women are defective in intelligence. Coming from a culture where gender mixing is the norm and close relationships aren't looked down upon, I can tell you this isn't true from my own experience. And then there's current trends in school grades, sciences, IQ and employment performance, the fact there are women in MENSA (if you don't know MENSA is like a super genius club, only 2% of the human population globally have a high enough IQ to qualify for membership). Now we live in an age men and women have equal rights, women are on the same level and even starting to out preform men. So I'm going to say this is wrong.

    4) Nonsense

    Do you believe that allah puts a veil over our hearts? If the answer to this is yes, then my reply to that would be that I'm blameless. If the reason I don't see the truth of islam is because allah put a veil over my heart, then it stands to reason I'll be punished (by being sent to hell) for a crime I didn't commit. My reason for saying I'm being punished for a crime I didn't commit is that allah delibertly put a veil over my heart so I would never know him, therefore the fault is allah's, not mine.

    Do you believe nothing happens accept by allah's will? If so then it's the same as above. If nothing happens except by allah's will, then allah made sure I wouldn't believe in him. So again the fault lies with allah, not myself.

    Do you believe islam teaches there's no compulsion in religion? If so does that mean if you don't accept islam as true, then you go to hell? If so, this means that allah has told us something to be taken as truth, and he punishes us for taking him at his word instead of assuming he was lying.

    Do you believe in the virgin birth? If so, can you understand why I might think it's more likely that a teenage girl told a lie rather than a virgin magically conceiving a child, carrying it to term, birthing it, and the child while still an infant speaking?

    Can you also understand why it may be confusing that said infant would only speak once to a few people and refuse to speak again to others, which would cause all doubt in the divinity of allah to be wiped away?

    Here's a situation. Let's say there's something in your house you don't like. It offends you. Let's also say you have the power of a god. Would you A) throw away the thing you didn't like or give it to charity, or B) bring it to life, give it intelligence so it can understand what's happening, enable it to feel pain, and torture it forever and ever and ever? Which is more merciful?

    5) Common sense

    It becomes a common sense issue. Let's say that I'm wrong. Let's say all the things I'm of the opinion are true are wrong. It doesn't change the fact that I find the quran unbelievable. I can't have more knowledge than what's available to me. Let's take evolution. I find it believable. I'm convinced of it. The quran goes against it. I have no reason whatsoever, nothing at all compelling me to believe the quranic story over proven scientific fact.

    Or another, let's take the big bang. I'm convinced by what knowledge I have that before the universe, and after the universe, there was no Earth. This planet did not exist. It took a very long time for our star to be born and for our planet to form. This seems plausible to me. From what I know of physics and cosmology, I can accept this. I have no reason whatsoever to believe that the Earth existed from the start and was ripped apart from heaven.

    Or another. The quran and hadiths suggest a flat Earth. At one point it's spread out like a carpet, at another the Earth is like an ostrich egg (had to pick the bird that buries it's egg and flattens the soil), allah will roll up the Earth like parchment/paper, and on and on it goes. Everything I'm aware of tells me this is wrong. It becomes less and less believable to me. So with all this in mind, common sense tells me that the only truth that lies hidden in the quran is simply the truths of the cultural norms and mindset of that society and time. Historically and psychologically it's interesting, but that's all it is. No more, no less.

    And I have to admit, these aren't even my strongest arguments. I haven't thought about this endlessly, I haven't delved into the theology to throw things at you. The above is just what came to mind as I sit here filling the time on a lazy Sunday evening.


    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Fears about the afterlife
     Reply #9 - October 23, 2014, 07:34 PM

    Why I Left Islam & Goodbye: http://youtu.be/ra9QQ58b7JY
  • Fears about the afterlife
     Reply #10 - October 23, 2014, 11:15 PM

    Why are you not worried about the Christian hell? It is just as bad and has the same amount of evidence for it. (as in none)

    Oh yeah and I hope you are keeping up good karma or else Buddhist hell awaits.

    "I moreover believe that any religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, cannot be a true system."
    -Thomas Paine
  • Fears about the afterlife
     Reply #11 - October 23, 2014, 11:22 PM

    And the fact the Old Testament never mentioned hell is definitively proven since we have the Jewish scriptures from earlier than the common era through the Dead Sea Scrolls. Any sort of playing the annoying "scripture is corrupted" card simply doesn't work here.

    Which makes zero sense that God would have never have mentioned hell until the New Testament was written and the concept was developed on by early church fathers who came up with punishments such as skins being burned off and replaced. Which the Quran incidentally copied.


    "I moreover believe that any religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, cannot be a true system."
    -Thomas Paine
  • Fears about the afterlife
     Reply #12 - October 23, 2014, 11:36 PM

    developed on by early church fathers who came up with punishments such as skins being burned off and replaced. Which the Quran incidentally copied.


    Now that's interesting. I thought Islam came up with that itself. It would be fascinating to trace it's origins. Have you any pre-Islamic sources for the skins being roasted off and replaced - bits?
  • Fears about the afterlife
     Reply #13 - October 23, 2014, 11:55 PM

    "But, however, the sacred writings inform us in what manner the wicked are to undergo punishment. For because they have committed sins in their bodies, they will again be clothed with flesh, that they may make atonement in their bodies; and yet it will not be that flesh with which God clothed man, like this our earthly body, but indestructible, and abiding forever, that it may be able to hold out against tortures and everlasting fire…The same divine fire, therefore, with one and the same force and power, will both burn the wicked and will form them again, and will replace as much as it shall consume of their bodies, and will supply itself with eternal nourishment …Then they whose piety shall have been approved of will receive the reward of immortality; but they whose sins and crimes shall have been brought to light will not rise again, but will be hidden in the same darkness with the wicked, being destined to certain punishment." (“Divine Institutes” 7:21)

    http://pleaseconvinceme.com/2012/what-did-the-early-christians-believe-about-hell/

    "I moreover believe that any religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, cannot be a true system."
    -Thomas Paine
  • Fears about the afterlife
     Reply #14 - October 24, 2014, 12:02 AM

    That quote was from an early Christian, Lactantius, writing around 307 CE. Notice how the Bible says little about Hell besides references to Gehenna and a Lake of Fire in Revelation. You can see early Christians imaginations having a field day developing the concept throughout the early centuries of Christianity.

    The link also contains early church father references to hell. You will see the concept getting more and more developed as time goes on. It was the later developed conceptions of hell developed by these Christians that freaked people out and was used as a threatening device to keep them in line. The author(s) of the Quran could clearly see this and used this to scare people into believing.

    Anyway, if anyone wants to read some gruesome depictions of hell created by early Christians, read the Apocalypse of Peter. It was one of the inspirations of Dante's Inferno.

    "I moreover believe that any religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, cannot be a true system."
    -Thomas Paine
  • Fears about the afterlife
     Reply #15 - October 24, 2014, 02:56 PM




    Thanks for all the links, I really appreciate it. Evolution has almost undeniable proof, yet millions (mostly religious people) still deny it. Evolution also almost no implications so its burden of proof wouldn't be as high as a doctrine claiming eternal salvation (and damnation). I know all this yet it still scares me, not sure why. I think it's just that some intelligent people convert and the thought of "what if"? Anyway, reading this has helped so thanks Smiley
  • Fears about the afterlife
     Reply #16 - October 24, 2014, 03:20 PM

    Now that's interesting. I thought Islam came up with that itself. It would be fascinating to trace it's origins. Have you any pre-Islamic sources for the skins being roasted off and replaced - bits?

    Islamic hell is incredibly similar to depictions of christian hell in medieval times. Christian books and even some churches show devils beating you with clubs/maces, ripping your skin off and replacing it with new skin, being forced into vats of boiling water/oil etc. Even in recent times there's very little difference between the islamic teachings of hell and catholic teachings. It's only recently some christian groups have been looking at the texts for themselves and coming to the conclusion that hell isn't necessarily torment, but simply the absence of god. Islamic hell matches church teachings at the time so closely I personally am convinced this is where Mo got his ideas.

    Here's some christian teachings on hell.

    The first one is incredibly fucked up. Recently dead souls naked being ushered to heaven on the left, hell on the right. It depicts the last, final, judgement of god/Christ.










































    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Fears about the afterlife
     Reply #17 - October 24, 2014, 03:21 PM

    Thanks for all the links, I really appreciate it. Evolution has almost undeniable proof, yet millions (mostly religious people) still deny it. Evolution also almost no implications so its burden of proof wouldn't be as high as a doctrine claiming eternal salvation (and damnation). I know all this yet it still scares me, not sure why. I think it's just that some intelligent people convert and the thought of "what if"? Anyway, reading this has helped so thanks Smiley

     Afro

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Fears about the afterlife
     Reply #18 - October 24, 2014, 03:48 PM

    Islamic hell is incredibly similar to depictions of christian hell in medieval times.     .........

    [img width=640 height=454]http://www.chinaoilpaintinggallery.com/oilpainting/Hans-Memling/Last-Judgment-Triptych.jpg[/img]

    [img width=640 height=351]http://www.dailystormer.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/Jews_Burn_in_Hell.jpg[/img]

    [img width=434 height=640]http://www.arthistorynews.com/i/entries/306.jpg[/img]

    [img]http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Jo7lJoQhtjw/SOhceC2tFkI/AAAAAAAACz8/UrcTTW-kUWI/s400/Hell+associatedcontent.com+WQ.bmp[/img]

    [img]http://www.temperaworkshop.com/history/angelico-hell.jpg[/img]

    [img]http://youall.com/HELL/labriguefrancewallpainting.jpg[/img]

    [img]http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-czEqs2Wf3Dc/TeZ0TBP2AdI/AAAAAAAAAHw/7DhsarokiSE/s320/hieronymus_bosch1.jpg[/img]

    [img width=479 height=640]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0f/Hortus_Deliciarum_-_Hell.jpg[/img]

    [img width=640 height=498]http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-21EIxi7AAmQ/T-ntMqsYQLI/AAAAAAAAF7o/2_aateeW7CY/s1600/770px-Depiction_of_Hell_%2528detail%2529.jpg[/img]

    [img width=428 height=640]http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-v5eYykXv0ms/T-npfrBqFeI/AAAAAAAAF6E/UmSuHCf856k/s1600/Taddeo%2Bdi%2BBartolo%25E2%2580%2599s%2BHell%2B1396.jpg[/img]

    [img]http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-iFfIJUTcstI/UncnOK-taiI/AAAAAAAAGqw/VnnrDRRflcs/s1600/Botticelli+Dante+Inferno.jpg[/img]

    [img width=488 height=640]http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-63aeozPiKeE/T-nqLwp20SI/AAAAAAAAF7E/9a_DpVkUFE8/s1600/Hell%252C%2Billustration%2Bfrom%2BSt.%2BAugustine%25E2%2580%2599s%2Bmanuscript%2BDe%2Bcivitate%2BDei%2Blibri%2BXXII%2B%2528The%2Bcity%2Bof%2BGod%2529%252C%2B412-426.jpg[/img]

    [img]http://static.neatorama.com/images/2007-03/last-judgment-mohammad-modabber.jpg[/img]

    [img]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c2/Coppo_di_Marcovaldo,_Hell.JPG/300px-Coppo_di_Marcovaldo,_Hell.JPG[/img]

    [img]http://www.educationscotland.gov.uk/Images/mouthofhell2%20L_tcm4-566166.jpg[/img]

    [img]http://averyfineknifepbp.files.wordpress.com/2013/03/wheel-of-fortune.jpg[/img]

    [img width=531 height=640]http://www.alleluiaaudiobooks.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/Fra-Angelico-Last-Judgement-14311.jpg[/img]

    [img]http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lled8rTmdI1qggdq1.jpg[/img]

    [img]http://www.romantisme-noir.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/Le-Jugement-Dernier_Fra-Angelico-Berlin.png[/img]

    [img]http://www.arthistoryarchive.com/arthistory/visionary/images/Visionary-Art-12.jpg[/img]

    [img]http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lled87Mxaa1qggdq1.jpg[/img]


    STUPID RELIGIONS BRAINLESS BUMS..

    http://what-buddha-said.net/library/DPPN/wtb/n_r/niraya.htm

    http://listverse.com/2013/09/04/10-fascinating-descriptions-of-hell/

    http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/260218/hell

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naraka_%28Buddhism%29

    errrrr   waste of time .. with rubbish...


    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Fears about the afterlife
     Reply #19 - October 24, 2014, 03:55 PM

    I love that quote. Adding it to the blasphemy day thread.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Fears about the afterlife
     Reply #20 - October 24, 2014, 04:06 PM

    “I do not fear death. I had been dead for billions and billions of years before I was born, and had not suffered the slightest inconvenience from it.” MARK TWAIN
  • Fears about the afterlife
     Reply #21 - October 24, 2014, 04:16 PM

    ^which reminds me of a quote

    "If you exist, then you cannot think of non-existence. "
    Damn, I cant find the right quote but I hope you get the idea of why hell and heaven were created :
    To evade nothingness.
  • Fears about the afterlife
     Reply #22 - October 24, 2014, 04:27 PM

    Quote
    Damn, I cant find the right quote but I hope you get the idea of why hell and heaven were created :


    I think this was best said by Epicurus.

    "Death does not concern us, because as long as we exist, death is not here. And when it does come, we no longer exist"

    Of course, he doesn't deal with the prospect of dying or the ancient fear of dying too early. That type of fear is more understandable.

    Fearing non-existence itself is of course absurd.

    Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.
  • Fears about the afterlife
     Reply #23 - October 24, 2014, 04:32 PM

    ^Thanks  Afro
  • Fears about the afterlife
     Reply #24 - October 24, 2014, 05:48 PM

    Thanks for all the links, I really appreciate it. Evolution has almost undeniable proof, yet millions (mostly religious people) still deny it. Evolution also almost no implications so its burden of proof wouldn't be as high as a doctrine claiming eternal salvation (and damnation). I know all this yet it still scares me, not sure why. I think it's just that some intelligent people convert and the thought of "what if"? Anyway, reading this has helped so thanks Smiley


    I am at Christian college and the professors here are very intelligent, yet they believe in crazy things. Intelligence does not forbid you from thinking irrationally, especially about a religious conviction you have held since early childhood.

    I do understand your initial fear of Islamic hell though. Before I went to Christian college, I began reading the Bible more and became really worried about the passages regarding hell. I knew Christians had tried to reinterpret them to mean something different than a literal place of torment, but that seemed to me an unlikely interpretation. I became afraid of an irrationally vindictive God. Then when I decided to read parts of the Quran after a terrorist attack in Kenya to see why certain Muslim extremists were driven to do what they did, I found the passages about hell in the Quran. Since I was taking things on faith without evidence, Islamic hell scared me even more. I think it is for these reasons that Islamic hell can fuck with your brain:

    1. The Quran is much more personal with its speech than the Bible. The audience is intended to be the reader, rather than many books in the Bible which are more detached and addressed to certain people at specific times

    2. The general graphic imagery is intended to get into your head

    3. The Quran is written in a much more cryptic, and unfamiliar style than the Bible. This can make you double think about the obvious barbarity, ignorance, and simplicity of the text and wonder if there is a deeper reason for it to say ridiculous stuff (like stars being missiles for jinn)

    4. The Quran is completely confident for no reason whatsoever. The author seems like an arrogant bully at times and for those who are swayed by people who are very self-confident, this can cause them to see it as truth

    5. It is insisted that it must be read in Arabic, which leaves it open to all kinds of linguistic gymnastics which can be performed to pull the wool over the eyes of non-Arabic speakers

    Add that none of my family or close friends are Muslims and those were my reasons to begin to afraid of Islamic hell. It caused me a great deal of anxiety and caused me to spend many hours trying to debunk the Quran. Now I hardly give it much thought.

    It is good you can be open about your fear. The next step is figuring out the reasons you are scared by it. By laying out these reasons, you realize that you are not scared because a certain invisible deity put that fear into your heart, but by natural things that can cause fear in people. Research can be good to debunk claims made by apologists and such, but do not get carried away in the research or you are just going to feed your fears. Make sure to keep living a normal, healthy and happy life in the midst of grappling with this issue. If it is like my case, the fear will dissolve over time as you become less and less interested in it as you start taking it less seriously.

    "I moreover believe that any religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, cannot be a true system."
    -Thomas Paine
  • Fears about the afterlife
     Reply #25 - October 26, 2014, 10:19 AM

    I am at Christian college and the professors here are very intelligent, yet they believe in crazy things. Intelligence does not forbid you from thinking irrationally, especially about a religious conviction you have held since early childhood.

    I do understand your initial fear of Islamic hell though. Before I went to Christian college, I began reading the Bible more and became really worried about the passages regarding hell. I knew Christians had tried to reinterpret them to mean something different than a literal place of torment, but that seemed to me an unlikely interpretation. I became afraid of an irrationally vindictive God. Then when I decided to read parts of the Quran after a terrorist attack in Kenya to see why certain Muslim extremists were driven to do what they did, I found the passages about hell in the Quran. Since I was taking things on faith without evidence, Islamic hell scared me even more. I think it is for these reasons that Islamic hell can fuck with your brain:

    1. The Quran is much more personal with its speech than the Bible. The audience is intended to be the reader, rather than many books in the Bible which are more detached and addressed to certain people at specific times

    2. The general graphic imagery is intended to get into your head

    3. The Quran is written in a much more cryptic, and unfamiliar style than the Bible. This can make you double think about the obvious barbarity, ignorance, and simplicity of the text and wonder if there is a deeper reason for it to say ridiculous stuff (like stars being missiles for jinn)

    4. The Quran is completely confident for no reason whatsoever. The author seems like an arrogant bully at times and for those who are swayed by people who are very self-confident, this can cause them to see it as truth

    5. It is insisted that it must be read in Arabic, which leaves it open to all kinds of linguistic gymnastics which can be performed to pull the wool over the eyes of non-Arabic speakers

    Add that none of my family or close friends are Muslims and those were my reasons to begin to afraid of Islamic hell. It caused me a great deal of anxiety and caused me to spend many hours trying to debunk the Quran. Now I hardly give it much thought.

    It is good you can be open about your fear. The next step is figuring out the reasons you are scared by it. By laying out these reasons, you realize that you are not scared because a certain invisible deity put that fear into your heart, but by natural things that can cause fear in people. Research can be good to debunk claims made by apologists and such, but do not get carried away in the research or you are just going to feed your fears. Make sure to keep living a normal, healthy and happy life in the midst of grappling with this issue. If it is like my case, the fear will dissolve over time as you become less and less interested in it as you start taking it less seriously.


    Yeah I think you've absolutely hit the nail on the head. It's important to both do the research and also look at the bigger picture. It's just fear coming from "what if", I can't think of any good reason to believe Islam is true.   thnkyu
  • Fears about the afterlife
     Reply #26 - October 26, 2014, 10:32 AM

    Islamic hell is incredibly similar to depictions of christian hell in medieval times...


    Those pictures look amazingly close to Qur'anic descriptions. There are even the "hooked rods of iron" that are mentioned in the Qur'an.
  • Fears about the afterlife
     Reply #27 - October 26, 2014, 10:43 AM

    I have to ask, as an Englishman (England being a historically christian country) how come you didn't know this? I'd assumed you'd at least glanced at judeo-christian theology while questioning your faith in islam as it makes no secret of it's connections with the latter two religions.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Fears about the afterlife
     Reply #28 - November 02, 2014, 12:20 PM

    I'm still quite anxious. I'm going to learn about other world religions just to give some perspective. I'd also like to talk to a non-Muslim philosopher that has studied Islam and ask their reasons for rejecting it. Does anyone else have other tips that could be useful?
  • Fears about the afterlife
     Reply #29 - November 02, 2014, 04:44 PM

    those images are highly disturbing! They just get me thinking how did I believe in that, how is anyone still believing in such a sadistic inhumane version of hell?

    How can an all loving, merciful god do THAT??? Those pictures illustrate it all quite clearly.

    There is a movie I watched a while back, one of my favorites, What dreams may come.

    The version of Hell in that movie is a lot more humane and fair. Why couldn't god just make hell like reliving your worst day on earth, depression, anxiety fulled place? Why instead go through such insane torture? 

    Heaven and Hell are both on earth, and we all experience both in our lifetime.

    If a god has a hell like this, it really makes my blood boil, because that god deserves to be despised. Fear is not love.

    Fear is not respect.

    And why should we be made to live our one life in fear??

    I am really going through a I hate religion phase right now.

    Good luck questioner, you will get through this fine. it is a process most of us went through. Just keep rationalizing your thoughts. Religion plays on our emotions.

    "I Knew who I was this morning, but I've changed a few times since then." Alice in wonderland

    "This is the only heaven we have how dare you make it a hell" Dr Marlene Winell
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