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Theme Changer

 Topic: Is Islamic State Islamic?

 (Read 10875 times)
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  • Is Islamic State Islamic?
     Reply #120 - October 17, 2014, 02:19 PM

    Nope. If one Muslim attacks an innocent, he/she is not a true muslim.


    haha  Afro

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Is Islamic State Islamic?
     Reply #121 - October 17, 2014, 03:57 PM



    That's the "Caliph" Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi second from left - at the back.
  • Is Islamic State Islamic?
     Reply #122 - October 17, 2014, 04:32 PM

    To me, Islam means what Muhammad wanted Islam to be during his lifetime alone based on my own study and interpretation of the earliest sources of his life, it is largely irrelevant to me what some 12th Century Sufi poet wrote, or how some Abbasid Caliph treated minorities.

    One single book: Ibn ishaq, is pretty much enough to read to get a good idea of what Muhammad himself wanted Islam to be about. That is the oldest source after all. Those hadith collections that Sunnis use (Bukhari, etc.) are also useful as a back-up, but they don't contradict Ibn Ishaq, they paint the same picture in fact.

    I expect there's some kind of kernel of historical truth in the biographies of the prophet and the hadiths but it may not amount to much, and it isn't obvious how to determine what that truth is.

    I'd take Patricia Crone as a better guide to the historical reality. Here's a link that's been posted before, but probably can't be repeated too often:

    What do we actually know about Muhammad?
  • Is Islamic State Islamic?
     Reply #123 - October 17, 2014, 05:09 PM

    That's the "Caliph" Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi second from left - at the back.


    Is that a joke? Or serious?
  • Is Islamic State Islamic?
     Reply #124 - October 17, 2014, 05:39 PM

    Well if you do believe that Abu, then you are not less gullible than Senator Rand Paul:

    http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/09/17/rand-paul-eats-up-those-long-debunked-mccain-isis-rumors.html
  • Is Islamic State Islamic?
     Reply #125 - October 17, 2014, 06:32 PM

    I expect there's some kind of kernel of historical truth in the biographies of the prophet and the hadiths but it may not amount to much, and it isn't obvious how to determine what that truth is.

    I'd take Patricia Crone as a better guide to the historical reality. Here's a link that's been posted before, but probably can't be repeated too often:

    What do we actually know about Muhammad?


    Thanks zeca, but seen that before

    Hi
  • Is Islamic State Islamic?
     Reply #126 - October 17, 2014, 07:59 PM

    Well if you do believe that Abu, then you are not less gullible than Senator Rand Paul:

    http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/09/17/rand-paul-eats-up-those-long-debunked-mccain-isis-rumors.html


    Ooops  thanks! (Note to self - always check sources!)

    Also re above:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/12/world/middleeast/try-as-he-may-john-mccain-cant-shake-falsehoods-about-ties-to-isis.html?_r=1
  • Is Islamic State Islamic?
     Reply #127 - October 17, 2014, 09:07 PM

    Yes, but nowhere in the world has not been part of an empire.. The trick is escaping cleanly. I mentioned Nicaragua earlier. Spain was an awful imperial power, wiping out religions, languages, cultures (even peoples in the southern parts of its empire), but Nicaragua is now just another poor country trying to make its way in the world. It's not a chronic hellhole.

    A Ghanaian ambassador told me his country had benefited from being colonised by the British (a personal opinion of course). Britain's debt to its own colonial masters is still apparent in language, law and central heating. Take the best, discard the rest. Get over it.

    India. Had the crap beaten out of it by Muslim imperialists (do they count, or do only western ones count?) then had the crap beaten out of it by the British. Today, India is going gangbusters. Pakistan, which split from India in the name of Islamic purity, is a failed shithole. Food for thought.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Is Islamic State Islamic?
     Reply #128 - October 17, 2014, 09:25 PM

    Thanks zeca, but seen that before

    Edit: meant 'not' seen that before. My fastext totally choose the wrong word there, turning me from a grateful to an ungrateful bastard. Cheeky ducking fastext.


    Hi
  • Is Islamic State Islamic?
     Reply #129 - October 17, 2014, 09:25 PM

    Shit

    Hi
  • Is Islamic State Islamic?
     Reply #130 - October 18, 2014, 06:26 AM

    I apologise for my two posts above. I was in a particularly incompetent mood last night.

    Reply 128 was supposed to be an edit of Reply 125.
    Reply 129 was then an expression of exasperation that I'd fucked up the edit of 125 somehow, and created a new post.

    If that's confused you more, or if you don't give a shit, then I apologise for that also.

    Hi
  • Is Islamic State Islamic?
     Reply #131 - October 18, 2014, 09:16 AM

    I was in a particularly incompetent mood last night.

    A new euphemism for 'drunk', but a good one.
  • Is Islamic State Islamic?
     Reply #132 - October 18, 2014, 09:55 AM

    Lol. And spot on. Throw in tiredness, insecurity, and a willingness to suck up to Zeca, and that was me last night. After reply 129, I cried, curled up, and told myself that I wasn't fit to be classed as a homo sapien, and should never post on here again.


    Hi
  • Is Islamic State Islamic?
     Reply #133 - October 18, 2014, 10:30 AM

    Either you lay the British self-deprecation on with a trowel or you're hideously, bafflingly and totally needlessly insecure.

    I hope it's the former.
  • Is Islamic State Islamic?
     Reply #134 - October 18, 2014, 04:21 PM

    Possibly the former mate, but I was in a funny mood last night. And thanks.

    Hi
  • Is Islamic State Islamic?
     Reply #135 - October 19, 2014, 09:22 PM

    India. Had the crap beaten out of it by Muslim imperialists (do they count, or do only western ones count?) then had the crap beaten out of it by the British. Today, India is going gangbusters. Pakistan, which split from India in the name of Islamic purity, is a failed shithole. Food for thought.


    Of course non western imperialism counts but my point was that western imperialism is a significant factor in the rise of ISIS and the Jihadist movements in the Middle East.

    Also, India might be going gangbusters for a few rich men, but India has one of the highest poverty rates in the world. India's official figure is 22% of the population is in poverty, but according to the human development index, the actual figure is at 55% which is higher than Pakistan and Bangladesh! It might be going gangbusters but depends how you look at it!

    Religion - The hot potato that looked delicious but ended up burning your mouth!

    Knock your head on the ground, don't be miserly in your prayers, listen to your Sidi Sheikh, Allahu Akbar! - Lounes Matoub
  • Is Islamic State Islamic?
     Reply #136 - October 19, 2014, 10:01 PM

    Current poverty rate according to any source I can find is 30% or under, and generally declining since colonial times. This puts it higher than Pakistan, but OTOH India seems far more stable than Pakistan, and with better (still far from perfect) human rights in general. Basically, India seems to have a future worth having. Pakistan does not.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Is Islamic State Islamic?
     Reply #137 - October 19, 2014, 10:36 PM

    Depends how poverty is defined but the human development index has it at 55% and the world bank has 400 million people in India living on less than $1,25 per day.  Democracy in India has done better than in Pakistan as has big business, and India does not have the same terrorism problem that Pakistan has.
    However, political corruption, terrorism, violence against women, sectarianism,  etc. are big problems in India.

    Big business and capitalism might be doing well in India, but if you scratch beneath the surface, India has a lot of problems. Pakistan has its problems, but India is not much better.

    I have just realised these last few days are the most i have contributed to this forum in years!

    Religion - The hot potato that looked delicious but ended up burning your mouth!

    Knock your head on the ground, don't be miserly in your prayers, listen to your Sidi Sheikh, Allahu Akbar! - Lounes Matoub
  • Is Islamic State Islamic?
     Reply #138 - October 20, 2014, 12:38 AM

    I know India has a lot of problems, but it seems to me that it's still in better shape than Pakistan.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Is Islamic State Islamic?
     Reply #139 - October 20, 2014, 03:34 PM

    I can understand how those who know next to nothing about Islam might fall for the view that the racist right (& of course the Salafis themselves) put forward that the Salafis represent true Islam, but it surprises me that anyone here on this forum could take that view, seeing as it is has been discussed so many times.

    I would suggest that those who think IS do represent "True Islam" go and study a bit more about Islamic History.

    But I'll attempt to at least put it as simply as I can:

    IS/ISIL/ISIS is a product of Jihadist ideology which in turn is a product of Salafi ideology which in turn owes it's rise mostly to Wahhabi movement started in the 18th century by Abdul Wahhab in what is today Saudi Arabia.

    Their views differ from the main traditional schools of Sunni Islam in many ways for example they do not consider it necessary to consult religious rulings of scholars of the main Sunni Mathhabs down the course of 1400 years of scholarship. They instead place emphasis on going back to original sources of Qur'an and Sunna and making rulings direct from that. (As if the scholars down the ages were unaware of Qur'an & Sunna.)

    To the simple-minded and uneducated modern day young Muslim this is very attractive.

    But it has created a very militant, puritanical and literalist & Jihad-driven version of Islam that differs in many ways from what many would call "Traditional" versions of Sunni Islam as represented by the scholars of the 4 main Sunni Mathhabs.

    The Salafis reject metaphoric or symbolic interpretations. (Some consider Sufis heretics to be executed.) They regard many of the practices approved of by scholars after the first generation to be innovations "Bid'ah" and outside Islam. They emphasises the importance of Jihad and regard it as meaning mainly physical Jihad with the sword rather than just struggle against one's nafs (ego).

    While they reject Taqleed (following past scholars of the main mathhabs) they nevertheless do have their own "select" group of favourite sheikhs from the past such as Ibn Taymiyya.

    Salafis as a whole are a minority of Muslims.

    IS are a minority of that minority. (IS are regarded extremists even by other Salafis.)

    Now as I have said over and over - they do have authentic sources. But no - and a thousand times no - they do not represent "True Islam". They represent one view - a very literalist, puritanical view. As I have said, puritanical literalist movements have cropped up many times during Islamic history, but they have generally been minority movements that either splintered into ever smaller groups and disappeared or they moderated.


    Well said, Abu Ali. Afro

    If you were a Muslim, Tony, I think you would be a Salafi by the looks of it - and if I was still Muslim I would still be arguing that your version of Islam is wrong and you can't ignore what the scholars down the ages have said.

    Instead I'll say "Lakum deenukum waliya deen" (To you your religion and to me mine.)  Afro

    I gotta stop wasting time on this  grin12


    Grin

    "I'm standing here like an asshole holding my Charles Dickens"

    "No theory,No ready made system,no book that has ever been written to save the world. i cleave to no system.."-Bakunin
  • Is Islamic State Islamic?
     Reply #140 - November 12, 2014, 02:28 PM

    And you mentioned about IS scholars. They don't have any scholars.


    What is the definition of a scholar as it pertains to Islamic knowledge? And if there is no true Islam, and all interpretations are equally valid. Then who is to say who is a scholar and who is not a scholar?

    ISIL certainly believe they have "scholars", they have a Shura Council to advise the Caliph.

    I think it is a little naive to believe that IS has no support among Islamic clergy. Preachers all over the Islamic world have been calling on Muslims to go to Syria for Jihad for years now. In fact Jordan recently announced that any Imams that preach violence will be expelled from the country, so they certainly recognize the problem and the need to dictate what the clergy can and can't say.
  • Is Islamic State Islamic?
     Reply #141 - November 12, 2014, 04:47 PM

    I can understand how those who know next to nothing about Islam might fall for the view that the racist right (& of course the Salafis themselves) put forward that the Salafis represent true Islam, but it surprises me that anyone here on this forum could take that view, seeing as it is has been discussed so many times.

    I would suggest that those who think IS do represent "True Islam" go and study a bit more about Islamic History.

    But I'll attempt to at least put it as simply as I can:

    IS/ISIL/ISIS is a product of Jihadist ideology which in turn is a product of Salafi ideology which in turn owes it's rise mostly to Wahhabi movement started in the 18th century by Abdul Wahhab in what is today Saudi Arabia.

    Their views differ from the main traditional schools of Sunni Islam in many ways for example they do not consider it necessary to consult religious rulings of scholars of the main Sunni Mathhabs down the course of 1400 years of scholarship. They instead place emphasis on going back to original sources of Qur'an and Sunna and making rulings direct from that. (As if the scholars down the ages were unaware of Qur'an & Sunna.)

    To the simple-minded and uneducated modern day young Muslim this is very attractive.

    But it has created a very militant, puritanical and literalist & Jihad-driven version of Islam that differs in many ways from what many would call "Traditional" versions of Sunni Islam as represented by the scholars of the 4 main Sunni Mathhabs.

    The Salafis reject metaphoric or symbolic interpretations. (Some consider Sufis heretics to be executed.) They regard many of the practices approved of by scholars after the first generation to be innovations "Bid'ah" and outside Islam. They emphasises the importance of Jihad and regard it as meaning mainly physical Jihad with the sword rather than just struggle against one's nafs (ego).

    While they reject Taqleed (following past scholars of the main mathhabs) they nevertheless do have their own "select" group of favourite sheikhs from the past such as Ibn Taymiyya.

    Salafis as a whole are a minority of Muslims.

    IS are a minority of that minority. (IS are regarded extremists even by other Salafis.)

    Now as I have said over and over - they do have authentic sources. But no - and a thousand times no - they do not represent "True Islam". They represent one view - a very literalist, puritanical view. As I have said, puritanical literalist movements have cropped up many times during Islamic history, but they have generally been minority movements that either splintered into ever smaller groups and disappeared or they moderated.

     

    Thanks for the post ! I've been wondering for a while about the differences between salafis and other sunnis. I pmed HM about it and he pretty much said the same thing you did.

    Although I can see these differences in "theology" I'm not sure if there really is much of a difference between say a hardcore mathab following sunni and a salafi in practice. 


    My family are hardcore beardo sunnis but they don't disagree with any of the sharia punishments in KSA which is run by salafis.

    Do you know of any significant differences between salafis and mathab sunnis in terms of jurisprudence and islamic law ?   

    death for apostasy, stoning for adultery, lashing for fornication, interest is haraam, alcohol is haraam, hijaab is necessary, meat must be slaughtered in a halal fashion, music is haraam etc etc

    Even though salafis might not follow mathabs I can't seem to find any major points of disagreements that salafis have with sunnis in terms of islamic laws.

    In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
  • Is Islamic State Islamic?
     Reply #142 - November 12, 2014, 05:26 PM

    The difference, as I see it, between mainstream traditional  Islam and Salafism is in application. On the issues pertaining to the penal code for example, Salafists believe it in theory and think that those laws should be applied. In modern times, mainstream traditional Islam has kept those laws in theory, but through loopholes and strengthened regulatory laws, rendered the application from almost impossible to a moot point. In the mind of a traditionalist ''almost impossible'' would mean null and void. Either way, as long as those laws are kept, even with no application in the world, they're deeply problematic as they help to maintain a hostile environment for the promotion of human rights and civil liberties.
  • Is Islamic State Islamic?
     Reply #143 - November 13, 2014, 11:50 AM

    Well since Islam is so subjective and unclear, ISIS is just one interpretation of it. There is no true Islam. I have Muslim friends who really believe in God but they love to drink and have fun with girls (Mashallah), they are really great guys, and I know cool Muslims who are fairly morally strict but still kinda Westernised and into metal music.

    IS is an extreme version of Salafism. But contrast them to Abdul Sattar Edhi. See what I mean???
  • Is Islamic State Islamic?
     Reply #144 - November 13, 2014, 03:19 PM

    I expect there's some kind of kernel of historical truth in the biographies of the prophet and the hadiths but it may not amount to much, and it isn't obvious how to determine what that truth is.

    I'd take Patricia Crone as a better guide to the historical reality. Here's a link that's been posted before, but probably can't be repeated too often:

    What do we actually know about Muhammad?


    I think Patricia Crone is an excellent scholar. But what exactly does this have to do with this topic? Even Crone says that slavery was a massive part of the economy and society of the first Islamic Empire.

    And even if all the hadiths are made up, they are still part of Sunni Islam. And ISIS also uses the Quran to justify their actions (beheadings, crucifixions, amputations, war against infidels, taking war captives as slaves and having sex with them, imposing Jizyah on conquered minorities, all of this is in the Quran).

    Now if we want to go a step further and say that the Quran is also fabricated by the later generations, then yes, you could say that IS is not part of "True Islam". But without the Quran you would have nothing left to define Islam in the first place.

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