Thanks for taking the time out to reply Zaid. Through your fractured grammar it appears your critical faculties are severely damaged at the moment and that you are infected with faith.
In regard to your replies
a)
I never asked about religion of Mormonism. I asked about the objective claim of a Supernatural/paranormal liason. To be 0% you would have to disprove this claim, can you do that considering we can't prove a negative ?
b) yet again I never mentioned anything about believing as a muslim. Nor did I ask you if you thought Mohammed sincerely believed he saw an angel in that question. You seem to enjoy answering questions not asked of you lol and and answering these questions from a faith lens when I specifically said I'm asking about KNOWLEDGE. Maybe you aren't understanding what I'm asking as it appears your grasp of the English language is poor. Not a personal attack but is English your 2nd/3rd language?
c) Personal testimony is not evidence of an objective paranormal claim. EG if you have one individual said they they saw a dragon blow fire to burn down a house, this would be laughed as this this is not something which has been observed before. However a if a few people report they saw a house put on fire deliberately as arson by some men, this is very probable because it’s this is something which is happens fairly regularly, it’s been caught on CCTV before and lots of people have been convicted of this crime. It has a NATURALISTIC explanation.
Also what happened before the Big Bang is unknown or even if there was a before or a beginning. The honest answer of what happened prior the Big Bang is "I don't know". When some Theoretical Physicists speculate absolutely the possibilities, that's what it is mere speculation. No Physicist has said they are CERTAIN what happened before the Big Bang , but it appears you are 100% CERTAIN that ALLAH caused the Big Bang ? (correct me if I'm wrong).
I asked you about supernatural/paranormal claims, I'm baffled as to why you spoke about Astrophysics in your reply to me when I didn't ask you any questions on Astrophysics.
I’ll ask the question in a clearer way, how would we KNOW (between A)Joseph Smiths claims to have seen an angel and B) Mohammeds claims to have seen an angel )which is true and which is untrue? Remember both these claims are mutually irreconcilable. Only one can be true but both can be untrue and we have no corroborative testimonies of these two individuals seeing angels apart from the two individuals making the claim. Furthermore even in Islamic sources it is not claimed that any of Mo's buddies saw a palpable version of the Arch Angel Gabriel speaking to Mohammed.
SO given the similarity of Joseph's claims and Mohammed and the fact that no humans apart from the ones making the claim witnessed it why is the huge difference in how convinced you are that these claims are true?
Also let's for a moment assume that both Mohammed and Joseph were being sincere and actually thought they met and spoke to angels. Considering now how we in the 21st century we have developed and understanding and diagnoses of mental illnesses such as schizophrenia and know that people have disorders(of no fault of their own) where they believe they are hearing and seeing hallucinations and delusions would this not be a naturalistic explanation of what mohammed and Joseph Smith believed they were experiencing/witnessing ? On top of that once people(in recent times) have been given the appropriate medication they have stopped the hallucinations/delusions of interacting with gods/spirits/angels etc.
I’d be the first to accept paranormalism/supernaturalism if objective evidence was provided of such a mechanism having a role in reality. If one religions supernatural claims was objectively proven to be true I would see it as a very good thing as it would provide the answers to many questions that we don’t know the answers of. Now that you know I'd be willing to change my position, I'm wondering is there anything that would make you revise your belief that islam is true ?
i really didn't want this to turn into a discussion post i was just intreducing myself that is all anyway:
regarles of what you said here:
a)I never asked about religion of Mormonism. I asked about the objective claim of a Supernatural/paranormal liason. To be 0% you would have to disprove this claim, can you do that considering we can't prove a negative ?
I'm sorry but didn't you asked about Joseph Smith? he created Mormonism and as far for it i said again i can't make a comment on it i said 0% because a-I'ma Muslim b-i don't study Mormonism infact i don't know alot about it so that renders your respond pointless
b)English is my second language so i guess there is a language barrier here (yet again I never mentioned anything about believing as a Muslim. Nor did I ask you if you thought Mohammed sincerely believed he saw an angel in that question. You seem to enjoy answering questions not asked of you lol and and answering these questions from a faith lens when I specifically said I'm asking about KNOWLEDGE. Maybe you aren't understanding what I'm asking as it appears your grasp of the English language is poor. Not a personal attack but is English your 2nd/3rd language?)
i said 100% certain Muhammad saw an angel so if that is what you are looking for then you found it
c) Personal testimony is not evidence of an objective paranormal claim. EG if you have one individual said they they saw a dragon blow fire to burn down a house, this would be laughed as this this is not something which has been observed before. However a if a few people report they saw a house put on fire deliberately as arson by some men, this is very probable because it’s this is something which is happens fairly regularly, it’s been caught on CCTV before and lots of people have been convicted of this crime. It has a NATURALISTIC explanation.
c is a combination of a and b sense i answered both means c is irrelevant because you asked for evidence for both of them i for onse argue i can;t provide evidence for it as there are things that happened in the past you can't find evidence for it doesn't mean it didn't happen
second i didn't rely on personal testimony as the cure of my argument it's a side not maybe this is a language barrier ones again but let me ask you if you saw an alien and you tell people they won't believe untell they say show me an evidence and you don't have one will you blame yourself? you know deep down you saw it anyway
(I asked you about supernatural/paranormal claims, I'm baffled as to why you spoke about Astrophysics in your reply to me when I didn't ask you any questions on Astrophysics.)
because if you lesson to what i said i said the idea the something could come from nothing is paranormal that is MY POINT all along things can be explained naturally everything that we can explain and understand is natural but the things we can never understand or absorb is supernatural the idea the universe came from nothing is supernatural (paranormal) by itself that is my whole point all along didn't you see it?
(diagnoses of mental illnesses such as schizophrenia and know that people have disorders)
this goes back to my comment that i said at point B please read it i said delusional people can distinguish reality from delusion if Muhammad was delusional he wouldn't be abel to distinguish reality from delusion and through his life as recorded we saw him clearly showing the difference here as far as (schizophrenia ) do you know what schizophrenia is? is a mental disorder often characterized by abnormal social behavior and failure to recognize what is real. Common symptoms include false beliefs, unclear or confused thinking, auditory hallucinations, reduced social engagement and emotional expression, and inactivity. Diagnosis is based on observed behavior and the person's reported experiences. (i.e split of personality) Muhammad clearly distinguished reality from delusion because if not he will not be able to survive
but let me use your logic here you said there is no empirical evidence that Muhammad saw an angel right? will there is no empirical evidence that he had any mental illness or schizophrenia on the other hand
your claim here goes to an oriantalist by the name of Watt
"It is incredible that a person subject to epilepsy, or hysteria, or even ungovernable fits of emotion, could have been the active leader of military expeditions, or the cool far-seeing guide of a city-state and a growing religious community; but all this we know Muhammad to have been."
Mohammed and the Rise of Islam (Third Edition., p. 330-1). New York: G. P. Putnam’s Sons.
however let us focus on the part of epilepsy unfortunately for watt this doesn't fit in because i myself have epilepsy i know my illness his scientific illiteracy is beyond astonishing:
anyway here is why Watt is being illogical let us assume the prophet according to the hadith receive a seizure each revelation let's accept that now how many verses are there in the Quran?
6230+ verses means the prophet had 6230+ seizures?
seriously really?
you gonna believe that how can a man who got more than 6230 seizure can still walk?
?? not only that the symptoms described in the hadith (which is over the top of my head now) is lacking the characteristics of epilepsy in the hadith his body shake and he goes unconscious (i assume it says that) and he see lights however this is wrong according to epilepsy seizures symptom which i had sevral times of my life you get to bite your tougue (not mentioned in the hadith) you get to have a liquid coming out of your mouth (not mentioned in the hadith) you get to have your teeth will bite the tongue (not mentioned in the hadith) you sweet (not mentioned in the hadith) and on top of all that there is absolotly no mention of syptoms after the prophet wake up which happens to me and evry single epileptic patient and that you can't walk in good way you lose sense in your feet you feel your body as heavy your head will hurt you you will be scared and emotionally disturbed you will be falling for sleep easily and so on (NON OF WHAT I JUST SAID IS MENTIONED IN THE HADITH) so the epilepsy lie by Watt debunked here
continue on
Epilepsy is a form of disease characterized by sudden insensibility, with convulsive movements of the voluntary muscles, and occasionally arrest of the breathing, owing to spasms of the muscles of respiration and temporary closure of the glottis. The epileptic not uncommonly gets insane, often loses his memory, and becomes subject to a certain want of acuteness, and depression of spirits which unfit him for the regular business of life. Disorders of digestion are also frequent, and there is a constant want of tone and vigour in all the bodily functions, which communicate an habitual expression of languor to the epileptic. Added to this, it can hardly be matter of surprise that the knowledge of his infirmity should deeply influence the mind of the epileptic, and produce a distaste for active occupations, especially for such as expose him to more than ordinary observation.”.
Chamber’s Cyclopedia
“His epileptic fits, an absurd calumny of the Greeks, would be an object of pity rather than abhorrence;”
The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, John Murray, London 1887 vol.VI p.259
EVEN Sir William Muir another orientalist said:
at two years of age she” (Halima) “weaned him and took him home; that Aminah was so delighted with the healthy and robust appearance of her infant, who looked like a child of double the age, that she said ‘Take him with thee back again to the desert,
The Life of Mahomet, Smith Elder and Co, London 1861
so if we medically observe the prophet no only the claim of epilepsy fall apart and the fact i have to say it's absurd to claim a man can still be alive after 6230+ seizures took over him and your hypothesis of his delusional life also fall apart
look at the end I'm not planning to make a discussion i'm here just to introduce myself and sorry for th long respons
Topic: New member (Muslim not Ex-muslim) joining the gang can i get huge welcome ?