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Theme Changer

 Topic: The civilized west strikes again!

 (Read 7121 times)
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  • The civilized west strikes again!
     OP - September 30, 2014, 05:08 PM

    What's going on guys? Based on the reaction of the people of the civilized west one year ago when Obama wanted to strike Assad, I am shocked at the hugely different reaction today to Obama's strikes against ISIS in Iraq and Syria. Nobody is saying now "we are not the world's police" or "we are tired of wars." Or "Don't waste our taxpaying money on new wars." No protests are sweeping thru western cities chanting "hands off Syria". Polls show that the majority of the previously war weary Americans support Obama's open-ended war against ISIS, and surprisingly showed that one third of Americans support sending boots on the ground to fight ISIS!! Compare this to the only 20%  who supported a fucking limited strike against Assad last year with no boots on the ground. So why this stark difference in just one year? Because this time the war is against a group that beheaded two Americans, while the planned limited strike last year was against Assad who didn't kill any Americans. He only kills non-westerners. The 250 thousand people he killed were not westerners. The ten million people – half of the Syrian population – he has displaced are not of blond hair nor blue eyes. The tens of thousands of people who were tortured to death in his prisons were not white Christians. The country that he has destroyed isn't located in the west. The people he uses chemical weapons against on regular basis are not westerners. The areas his forces indiscriminately bomb with barrel bombs and ballistic missiles are populated by just Arabs. To the so called civilized west that rages over the poaching of rhinos and elephants in Africa or the killing of a fucking giraffe in Copenhagen, all these crimes by Assad weren't an enough reason for the west to do something in Syria, something even as simple as establishing a no fly zone to stop Assad's air force from bombing cities. But ISIS's killing of two Americans was an enough reason for the civilized west to intervene!. Yes, these are the standards of the civilized west: As long as genocides are not affecting white Christians, the west doesn't give a damn. And even when this west is actually intervening in the same area that is witnessing a slaughter against civilians, this west targets only the group that killed the two Americans, and does nothing to the group that killed 250 thousand people. It's bad luck for those 250 thousand Syrians that they were not white Christians. US warplanes are now flying side by side with Assad's warplanes that are dropping barrel bombs on civilians. Maybe US pilots do chat with the Syrian pilots thru communications. "Hey buddy! I am going to Idlib to target ISIS there, where are u heading?." "I have a couple of barrel bombs to drop over a crowded bakery in Aleppo to kill as many civilians as possible." "good luck." "see you."

    Maybe now you can understand my feelings as a Syrian living in Syria when I watch in the news how the US is targeting ISIS in Syria while in the same time I hear Assad's warplanes bombing populated areas around my city. You don't hear in western TV news channels about the "collateral damage" the strikes against ISIS are causing, but we in Syria do hear about it, actually we are killed by it. For instance, the US Tomahok missiles strikes on the first day killed 23 civilians in Idlib province. The US now has become a partner with Assad in killing the Syrian people. Thank you civilized west.
  • The civilized west strikes again!
     Reply #1 - September 30, 2014, 05:13 PM

    Seems like a pretty good idea not to try and kill Americans.

    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • The civilized west strikes again!
     Reply #2 - September 30, 2014, 05:34 PM

    Seems like a pretty good idea not to try and kill Americans.

    juice did it.. Disguised as Muslims, juice beheaded americans.,  so americans will bomb Muslim folks., it is all conspiracy...

    well i didn't read all that anger(rightly so) of salim munqith's post when I scribbled the above words but Salim has a point..

    Question is how do we solve that problem? what are the fundamental root causes of that bombings and killings all the way from  present  Africa -Middle East- Asia??  from Nigeria to Pakistan ?

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • The civilized west strikes again!
     Reply #3 - September 30, 2014, 07:28 PM

    Syria is backed by Russia simple as that. It's a game of geopolitics. Our governments are not helping nations due some sort of empathy for the people but for their own goals.
  • The civilized west strikes again!
     Reply #4 - September 30, 2014, 08:27 PM

    What you've described, OP, is an enormous over-simplification of the situation. Nevertheless, I understand the anger. And I definitely understand what it looks like.

    There's a lot that frustrates me about American politics, particularly over the last two presidencies, but, for better or for worse, the troops or the inaction of the military do not necessarily represent the feelings of the population. Sometimes, it doesn't even reflect the feelings of the powers that be, as the government has been tripping over itself with every little decision for nearly 8 years.
  • The civilized west strikes again!
     Reply #5 - September 30, 2014, 10:29 PM


    I’m about to give my opinion on why the western world didn’t act against Assad last year. There is a good chance that my eyes are a lot more naïve than yours Salim, and they have certainly seen less pain, suffering and injustice than yours undoubtedly have. But for what it’s worth, I’ll write down what I can remember:

    IMO, there were a number of contributing factors towards why Assad’s heinous crimes last year went unpunished. He had crossed the line. He needed to be stopped. In fact, most people understood that he should have been stopped years ago, but the Western world could never find the resolve, nor the will or the backing from their public, to do anything about it. But last year, after the attacks that Assad so blatantly sanctioned, all of that changed. Assad had crossed the line. The world could no longer turn its back on the evil that existed in Syria. The world had to do something, otherwise they would be allowing Assad to set a precedent, they would be allowing him to break every convention that existed, and they would thus also be implicit in the suffering and death that was so horribly evident in Syria… So why didn’t they intervene in the end? Well IMO, a few things happened to allow the momentum and resolve to slip:

    -   Russia, plus China and Iran to a lesser extent, proved vocal in putting their collective weight behind trying to keep the West out of Syria. Between them, they blocked every UN resolution going, issued countless warnings to the west to stay away, tried to cast doubt in the world regarding who was actually behind the attacks, and even brokered a feeble and ridiculously inadequate deal that would mean Assad would hand in all of his chemical stockpile in exchange for the West staying away. In their twisted thinking, it was a reasonable compromise for a crime to go unpunished, because the weapon that had been responsible for it was being confiscated afterwards.
    -   As you quite rightly say, the resolve of the Western public (not the governments) was incredibly weak. They were war weary. There had been huge messes created in Afganistan and in Iraq. The legitimacy for even going in, particularly in Iraq, had proven to be incredibly dubious. In addition, the exit strategies had been shambolic, and it was evident that an even bigger mess had been created than the one that the West had gone in to try to ‘clean up’, There was no denying any of this, and this meant that the public had become hugely sceptical when faced with another middle-eastern war, regardless of any apparent justification for this

    Despite all this, there were three nations in particular who were willing to ignore the alliance that stood against them, and that were willing to convince and carry their public to war, regardless of their weariness. These three nations were the US, France and Britain. Plans were drawn up, their resolve was made clear to the world, their media was being prepped, and other nations were being encouraged and even coerced into either joining, or at least showing approval for the war that was about to happen,. All was in place…

    But then, as suddenly as it had formed, this resolve started to break down. IMO, this started with Britain, and with Ed Milliband in particular, the leader of the opposition party. It hurts me to say this about him, but he was not born to lead, and his party will suffer for longer because of this fact. Mr Milliband was struggling a year ago (as he is now) to convince even his own party, let alone the general public, that he has what it takes to lead his country. His personal ratings, as well as his party’s ratings, were spectacularly unspectacular for a mid-term opposition leader whose country was still in the depths of the greatest depression since the war. Because of this, IMO, Mr Milliband played politics with the motion put forward by the government that we should go to war against Assad. Despite first agreeing with the motion, he eventually decided to oppose it by suggesting that we should not enter war ‘without compelling evidence’ that it was actually Assad’s people that carried out the chemical attacks. Personally, I’m not sure how much more fucking evidence Mr Milliband wanted. Did he want to see more images of the victims? Did he want to study for fingerprints on the chemical weapons that were about to be handed in by the perpetrators? Did he want to send more observers into the areas that Assad controlled, from where the attacks indisputably originated, just to make sure that there were only Assad’s people there, in charge of the red buttons in this area? For his sake anyways, I hope the temporary bounce in popularity that he gained from preventing war, was worth him going against even his own judgement and conscience.

    Anyways I’ve rambled enough, so I will round up (quickly?). Labour, with the help of a few Tory rebels defeated the motion. Britain was thus forced to leave the alliance. This instilled further doubts in the other two key members of the alliance, and in particular, in their public. This coincided with Russia’s brokering of a deal with Assad to hand in his chemical weapons by a specified deadline. Within a week, the fight was gone from the stomach of the leaderships in both France and the US, and Assad was able to breath easy again. For what it’s worth, there were many in the West that felt devastated that after consensus had finally been built up against Assad, it had inexplicably dissipated at the blink of an eye. It goes without saying that the consequences for not going in last year have been monumental for the Syrian people, and also for the liberal opposition in Syria. Plus, not going in last year has also contributed towards the rise of the IS, for which the western world now feels compelled to act upon.




    Hi
  • The civilized west strikes again!
     Reply #6 - September 30, 2014, 10:40 PM

    For what it's worth, I agree with every sentence written above.
  • The civilized west strikes again!
     Reply #7 - September 30, 2014, 10:54 PM

    ISIS killed Westerners in hopes of getting a reaction. The plan was to use a war against them as evidence that the West is the enemy of Islam and unite Muslims under their banner.

    ISIS Welcomes US Intervention and Western Jihadists

  • The civilized west strikes again!
     Reply #8 - September 30, 2014, 11:01 PM

    I feel your pain salim. What is happening in Syria has been haunting me since it started and I for one wanted us to bomb assad from the start. I remember what his father did in hama and always knew he would be the most brutal and callous of the Arab dictators.

    I daily wish I could do something to help.
  • The civilized west strikes again!
     Reply #9 - October 01, 2014, 12:00 AM



    Given the situation we've arrived at, what would you advocate? Will ISIS strategy eventually provoke a full scale war against Islam if they're too successful?
  • The civilized west strikes again!
     Reply #10 - October 01, 2014, 06:36 AM

    really simple questioning  here : )  but other than the obvious gas/oil etc accusation, why is the west so interested in solving the conflicts of the middle east, why not leave them to fight it out themselves, why do they not resolve other problems elsewhere such as the conflicting tribes in africa, the rwanda massacre years ago, we just sat and watched unfold, did nothing to help except film women and children being clubbed to death, what about those girls who were kidnapped recently, were they released, I've never really taken an interest in the mid east conflicts so forgive my ignorance but it seems like a battle for ownership of gas and oil between the big guys of the west, russia, china, and the muslims are stuck in the middle of it producing extremists, i cant bear to hear the politics behind it all because looking at the bigger picture, to me it seems like b*shit excuses.  Afghanistan for example, if its not about securing gas and oil pipes, why would the mighty usa and uk go to war for years, lose the lives of many soldiers for the sake of fighting some small group of taliban cowboys ?    I've got a friend out there in the army, works in supplies, he said he doesnt even know why they are there, if he doesnt even know then ?  wacko 

    (excuse my ignorance and lack of knowledge in the area, that was just a rant, not real questions)  : )
  • The civilized west strikes again!
     Reply #11 - October 01, 2014, 10:52 AM

    I’m about to give my opinion on why the western world didn’t act against Assad last year. There is a good chance that my eyes are a lot more naïve than yours Salim, and they have certainly seen less pain, suffering and injustice than yours undoubtedly have. But for what it’s worth, I’ll write down what I can remember: ..........

    No doubt west exploited in the past   and some time they paid price for that.,  but  musivore  West or East ............ some one  can not and will not clean out shit all the time .. even mother will stop changing  her kids soiled diaper after some time...

    We have to realize that same problem was there between Iran and Iraq ..Millions died at the end of 70s and early eighties ...    Millions died in 40s when Indian subcontinent divided ................ Take the fucking religious shit and religious politics out of this globe ...   Take the greed and throw  these egotistic idiots out of  politics  make some simple rules for democracy...   TEACH GOLDEN RULE ...make people realize we are evolved biological species .. we and our biology is very very cosely related to others species on this earth.  and  We as human beings  have abilities to solve all problems...  

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • The civilized west strikes again!
     Reply #12 - October 01, 2014, 01:04 PM

    Russia and China have four times vetoed any intervention against the Assad regime. When Obama last year tried to bypass the UN after the chemical massacre in Ghouta he was blocked by a hostile congress.

    The US now bombing IS in Syria thus seems to be highly hypocritical. However IS has done nearly everything possible to vilify themselves which makes it much easier for populations in Western countries to support strikes against them.

    Also the propaganda from and for the Assad regime has creeped into every corner of the debate so nobody thinks there are something called "moderate rebels" anymore. Still today I keep getting references to the rebels as being "cannibals" because of that one video with Abu Sakkar.

    Personally I think we should have intervened looong time ago and given Russia the middle finger. Putin doesn't adhere to neither international law nor their own agreements anyway as seen with Crimea and Ukraine. However that would be a further weakening of the UN and international law. But when countries have veto power in the Security Council that is what you get.

    Also Israel will probably prefer Assad to stay in power as the situation is now - so that might not be on the agenda for the US.

    Danish Never-Moose adopted by the kind people on the CEMB-forum
    Ex-Muslim chat (Unaffliated with CEMB). Safari users: Use "#ex-muslims" as the channel name. CEMB chat thread.
  • The civilized west strikes again!
     Reply #13 - October 01, 2014, 01:16 PM

    I disagree it's entirely hypocritical. Assad was never a threat to us, whereas IS actively wants to kill us. Not only do they encourage attacks, they train passport holders who can then come back and massacre our own citizens. IS is a thread to us in a way Assad never was nor shall ever be.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • The civilized west strikes again!
     Reply #14 - October 01, 2014, 01:45 PM

    IS massacring the Yezidis is not a threat to us. Nonetheless that is what scrambled the US jets.

    Here  - Obama telling on August 7th "we" are bombing IS on humanitarian grounds. And of course to protect US interests in Iraqi Kurdistan.

    Not doing the same in Syria is hypocritical. And fueling the idea that "teh West" is at war with Islam. Whatever you preferred flavour of Islam is.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zuaO5EJzLAE

    Despite that it was the YPG who fought its way with old weapons all the way from Syria who saved tens of thousands of trapped people in Mount Shingal.

    Danish Never-Moose adopted by the kind people on the CEMB-forum
    Ex-Muslim chat (Unaffliated with CEMB). Safari users: Use "#ex-muslims" as the channel name. CEMB chat thread.
  • The civilized west strikes again!
     Reply #15 - October 01, 2014, 02:13 PM

    I never said them massacring Yezidis is a threat to us.
    I disagree it's entirely hypocritical. Assad was never a threat to us, whereas IS actively wants to kill us. Not only do they encourage attacks, they train passport holders who can then come back and massacre our own citizens. IS is a thread to us in a way Assad never was nor shall ever be.


    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • The civilized west strikes again!
     Reply #16 - October 01, 2014, 02:44 PM

    Except it is very counterproductive. Now people will flock even more to IS. And those fueled by Jihadist dreams have even more reasons to attack the countries that are in the coalition.

    In many people's views IS is fighting the murderous Assad regime who is butchering Muslims in the tens of thousands. Now the US & friends are attacking the heroic defenders in IS and Jabhat al-Nusra.

    It is estimated 50 fighters have returned to Denmark. Is bombing IS and Jabhat al-Nusra in Iraq and Syria going to take them out? Not really.

    Is boming IS and Jabhat al-Nusra and killing scores of civilians in the process going to push some of our citizens more towards radicalisation? Very, very likely.

    The bombings will break the spine of IS as much as the Blitz broke the spine of the British.

    Danish Never-Moose adopted by the kind people on the CEMB-forum
    Ex-Muslim chat (Unaffliated with CEMB). Safari users: Use "#ex-muslims" as the channel name. CEMB chat thread.
  • The civilized west strikes again!
     Reply #17 - October 01, 2014, 06:05 PM

    When it comes to politics in the Middle East, there will always be a loose/loose scenario. What should've been done from the beginning?  Whatever the answer, the results would've been shitty in one form or the other.

    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • The civilized west strikes again!
     Reply #18 - October 01, 2014, 07:24 PM

    I think not pretending like oil isn't "the west's" key concern in the region could be a start.

    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Re: The civilized west strikes again!
     Reply #19 - October 02, 2014, 03:08 AM

    What you've described, OP, is an enormous over-simplification of the situation. ............




    well let me see this

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fLx8I7uWtP0

    also share with the forum in this folder

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • The civilized west strikes again!
     Reply #20 - October 02, 2014, 06:10 AM

    ^What does that picture even mean? I find it somewhat stupid...

    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • The civilized west strikes again!
     Reply #21 - October 02, 2014, 07:45 AM

    ^What does that picture even mean? I find it somewhat stupid...

    Ooops   damn  .... wrong picture in a wrong forum.. that is the result of opening  multiple  tabs and writing in to different forums at one time  Cornflower.... I was actually pming that picture to some guy...  and  got messed up

    but tell me what was stupid about that picture w.r.t religions.  And I wan answer from Salim..  or from readers   on this..

    ...................... Assad who didn't kill any Americans. He only kills non-westerners. The 250 thousand people he killed were not westerners. The ten million people – half of the Syrian population – he has displaced are not of blond hair nor blue eyes. The tens of thousands of people who were tortured to death in his prisons were not white Christians. The country that he has destroyed isn't located in the west. The people he uses chemical weapons against on regular basis are not westerners. The areas his forces indiscriminately bomb with barrel bombs and ballistic missiles are populated by just Arabs. To the so called civilized west that rages over the poaching of rhinos and elephants in Africa or the killing of a fucking giraffe in Copenhagen, all these crimes by Assad weren't an enough reason for the west to do something in Syria, something even as simple as establishing a no fly zone to stop Assad's air force from bombing cities. But ISIS's killing of two Americans was an enough reason for the civilized west to intervene!. Yes, these are the standards of the civilized west: As long as genocides are not affecting white Christians, the west doesn't give a damn. And even when this west is actually intervening in the same area that is witnessing a slaughter against civilians, this west targets only the group that killed the two Americans, and does nothing to the group that killed 250 thousand people. It's bad luck for those 250 thousand Syrians that they were not white Christians. US warplanes are now flying side by side with Assad's warplanes that are dropping barrel bombs on civilians. ....................

    so answer me  Salim  whose fault is this?   Is this the fault of Americans??   fault of west?

    Casualties of the Syrian Civil War

    Quote
    Source ..........................................   .Casualties.................Time period

    United Nations ......................................................191,369 killed.................................15 March 2011 – 30 April 2014
    Next Century Foundation.....................................108,871 killed..................................1 July 2012 – 31 May 2014
    Syrian Observatory for Human Rights.............180,215–260,215 killed...............15 March 2011 – 20 August 2014
    Center for Documentation of Violations..........121,713 killed................................15 March 2011 – 30 September 2014
    Syrian Network for Human Rights....................139,693 killed.................................15 March 2011 – 30 September 2014


    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • The civilized west strikes again!
     Reply #22 - October 02, 2014, 11:44 AM

    ^What does that picture even mean? I find it somewhat stupid...

     It means what lua says  grin12 grin12





    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • The civilized west strikes again!
     Reply #23 - October 03, 2014, 09:53 AM

    Damn, this thread reeks of militarism advocates like a bad local-made millet liquor.

    I feel your pain, Salim. It sucks how syrian civilians are caught up and trapped in this mess.

    "I'm standing here like an asshole holding my Charles Dickens"

    "No theory,No ready made system,no book that has ever been written to save the world. i cleave to no system.."-Bakunin
  • The civilized west strikes again!
     Reply #24 - October 03, 2014, 10:16 AM

    sorry for not answering your comments. I am just too frustrated to write.
    But I can give a quick answer to the argument that the west didn't intervene in Syria because of the Russian vetos.
    The current US intervention against ISIS isn't authorized by the security council. And last year when Obama wanted to strike Assad after he crossed the accidentally set red line, Obama didn't care about getting an authorization from the security council. And Russian foreign minister actually said that they will not defend Assad against the expected US strike. what made Obama back off from striking Assad wasn't Russia, unfortunately it was the US public who put huge pressure on the congress to refuse the strike.
    And here comes my point again: the reasons the US public refused striking Assad one year ago do apply on striking ISIS today. Actually it applies more since that striking Assad was supposed to be limited and quick, while the war against ISIS now is an open-ended war. But instead, the US public today hugely welcomes striking ISIS and no one is saying anymore "we are war weary" "don't waste taxpaying money on new wars" "we aren't the world's police."
    And again, the US is already intervening in Syria, but when it chooses to strike only the side that killed two Americans and completely ignore the side that killed hundreds of thousands of non-Americans then this just shows how sickeningly selfish this "civilized" west is. I am in Syria and everybody around me is very angry about how these strikes are completely avoiding Assad's forces and airbases that are spreading death and destruction in all of Syria. Ironically the only air base that is being bombed today by the US  is one that has been captured by ISIS. what about the other airbases that are still under Assad's control? they pose no threat to the US, they are used to kill Syrians only which isn't a problem. What a disgusting world.

    somebody here asked why the west is always looked upon to intervene in humanitarian tragedies. The answer is simple. the west is the only super military power that that holds and promotes civilized values, unlike the other super military powers Russia and China.
    Now if you ask why Arab countries aren't stepping in Syria militarily, the answer is:
    Remember in Kosovo and Libia how the west militarily intervened using air strikes only?. It's only the west who has this ability to deal a great damage without using boots on the ground and and without receiving any casualties. The Arab countries don't have such ability. the only way for Arabs to efficiently intervene in Syria is by using boots on the ground which will cost them a lot of casualties. Arab air forces can't strike Assad cuz he has powerful air defenses, so the US must pave the way by striking those defenses with Tomahok missiles. Arabs can't take out these air defenses.
  • The civilized west strikes again!
     Reply #25 - October 03, 2014, 10:43 AM

    salim you responded to my posts 4 years ago at http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=13866.msg383162#msg383162 .,   that was wonderful ., But here  I question  some of the points  you raised.    We are all frustrated in one way or other way
    sorry for not answering your comments. I am just too frustrated to write. ...............................

     So please stop saying or feeling sorry.,   I have realized for some reason, for guys of  Arab background,  they have these emotional buttons  such as anger, happiness, feeling sorry...etc..etc..  they rise and fall so  quickly., it is hard to deal with...  lol..

    with best wishes
    'yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • The civilized west strikes again!
     Reply #26 - October 03, 2014, 11:13 AM

    I question to Salim. I'm not a fan of the US or other foreign military intervening in Syria, however, reality is that it's a civil war where the killing and mayhem is not, and will not, just stay within the Syrian borders. It's already become very much a Syrian and Iraqi problem due to ISIS. Just like you say, Assad, as well as the Free Syrian Army and other rebel groups like Jabhat al Nusra, are killing civilians and are hardly respecting human rights. What is the world to do? What do you, and what do you think other average Syrians in Syria, think should be done? It's a tricky dilemma. Do nothing, and the killing and mayhem continues and spreads. Do something, but whatever you do it won't end very neatly at all.

    I wasn't supporting an intervention when it was first put up as a possibility. I think, and still think, that Syrians ought to be the ones to get their own house in order. However, we know that Assad is merciless and kills civilians who can't really defend themselves. Somewhat peaceful protests and demonstrations who all agreed that they wanted freedom and rights, ended up in multiple fractions who in the end don't seem to care much about freedom and rights at all...

    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
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