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Theme Changer

 Topic: Hi, An atheist from India

 (Read 6051 times)
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  • Hi, An atheist from India
     OP - September 18, 2014, 05:50 AM

    Hello CEMB,

    I'm from India, born and brought up there, currently living in US. Born in a Hindu family, from a rural hinterland in Southern part of India. We've a very assimilated Muslim community here, I think they're our people, who converted from Hinduism to escape the caste oppression. I'm familiar with Indian Islamic culture (Ramzan, Milad Nabi, Bakrid, Moharram; and the Hyderabadi biryani, kheer made during the Eid, Beautiful Urdu Shayaris) from my childhoood.
      In my village, there are around 30 Muslim families, they didn't even had a mosque until last year. We've a sufi saint tomb, where all kind of prayers and festivals used to be held. No body wore any hijab/burqa/niqab. And all of those families participated in Hindu festivals with equal enthusiasm. We've so many Hindu kids named as Saeed (after local sufi saint) and so many Muslim kids named after national leaders who are Hindus.
     My close friends, the friends I grew up with, are Muslims. Heck, I never thought we were any different - that I'm a Hindu and they're Muslim. We were so close that - I used to go into any of their houses, and if I get hungry, will directly go into kitchen and fetch anything for myself to eat.
     All this beautiful co-existence, bonhomie, camaraderie  changed, when some of our young people emigrated to Gulf region looking for jobs. After few years, they brought back the Gulf culture back with them - women started covering themselves up etc, level of religious observance really really spiked up. And my friends, the guys I grew up with, they no longer can express the same warmth.
    How I miss those days !!! And to add fuel to the fire, Hindu right-wing organisations made inroads into our idyllic little village and started polairising the society. Our beautiful village now just a simmering ground for religious strife.
        But growing up in India, and Hindu-Muslim animosity is not new to us at a broader national level, in spite of near absence of this in rural areas., so I kind of understood the transformation of my village's Muslims. But what stuck my curiosity was the kind of cultural difference between Gulf Islam and the Sufi-strain Islam in my village. It's not that I couldn't discern the difference between culture and religion. I remember reading a NGC article on South Asian Islam, how the Bhakti traditions of Hinduism interacted with Sufi of Islam, and gave rise to distinctly benign south asian flavour to Islam. But I wanted to find out the real Islam, the Islam, so many South Asian Mulsims don't follow, because they can neither speak nor can understand the English translations. I went onto research the Quran/Hadith/Sira. It was so boring initially, but I kept at it for so many years.
      Growing up in a Hindu household, I was never religious. My mother taught me and my sister, some sanskrit verses for various gods, but that's about it. My father was never religious, he was a hard-core communist in his youth, and used to look down on the religiosity of my mother. Anyway, Hinduism is such a dis-organised religion, we grow up never reading our so-called sacred books.
     But as I was researching Islam, I also picked up interest in Hindu liturgical literature.  It too was equally boring. I found some deep philosophy in Bhagavad Gita, but completely put off by the caste system it espouses. I liked the egalitarianism taught by Islam, and understood, might be one of the reasons, why Islam found so many willing converts during medieval era.
    As I read and read about these two religions in parallel - I realized that at very deep level, none appealed me. I realised that I've always been an unbeliever, it's just I was playing along with the surrounding culture. It's not a big deal to become an atheist in Hindu community anyway. When I told my mother that I don't believe in her gods on the phone, she was like - oh okay, let it be so,  but don't forget to eat on time, lol.  Cheesy

    Islam contributed a lot to South Asian civilisation - in terms of arts, architecture and cuisine. It also has a very distinct flavour. I still have good things to say about South Asian Islamic culture in general. But Islam as a religion, not much. These two religions caused and continue to cause so much bloodshed in the sub-continent, so much so that, I felt like why don't both these Hindus and Muslims leave India alone. If the amount of bad-blood between Hindus and Muslims can be converted into some kind of fuel, India will not need to import oil from Gulf/Russia for another 1000 years.

    I failed to find any atheists/agnostics amongst the Muslims, when I was back home. But as I started to research, I realised that there have been lot of skeptics in the history of Islam. Wanted to meet those kind of folks, so I joined this forum.



     

    "Who really knows?
    Who will here proclaim it?
    Whence was it produced? Whence is this creation?
    The gods came afterwards, with the creation of this universe.
    Who then knows whence it has arisen?"- Rig Veda, 10:129-6
  • Hi, An atheist from India
     Reply #1 - September 18, 2014, 05:59 AM

    Interesting intro. Welcome to CEMB. parrot

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Hi, An atheist from India
     Reply #2 - September 18, 2014, 06:04 AM

    Thanks Quod Sum Eris.

    I've not posted any theological things, as I've read this forums and figured out, you guys might have discussed all of them ad nauseam. I've to admit that I embarked on reading about Islam, with very out-sider's perspective. I wanted to understand the religion. Never guessed that it'll make me see the flaws in the religion, I was born into as well. I guess, that's just extra bonus.

    "Who really knows?
    Who will here proclaim it?
    Whence was it produced? Whence is this creation?
    The gods came afterwards, with the creation of this universe.
    Who then knows whence it has arisen?"- Rig Veda, 10:129-6
  • Hi, An atheist from India
     Reply #3 - September 18, 2014, 08:33 AM

    You never guessed understanding a religion would allow you to see it's flaws?

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Hi, An atheist from India
     Reply #4 - September 18, 2014, 09:51 AM

    Intention was never to become a Muslim, to begin with., So I can say I'm okay with the flaws. Comparatively, Hindus in India see lot more atheists/agnostics amongst them(disorganised nature, no central clergy, apostacy is not even frowned upon, etc). Sparing some high-profile cases like Salman Rushdie, Muslim community on the other hand doesn't encounter much skepticism in its ranks.

    So, I thought, there might be something very perfect with the Islamic faith that it keeps almost all of its adherents  from weaning away from religion. Its just out of curiosity I started to read about Islam.


    "Who really knows?
    Who will here proclaim it?
    Whence was it produced? Whence is this creation?
    The gods came afterwards, with the creation of this universe.
    Who then knows whence it has arisen?"- Rig Veda, 10:129-6
  • Hi, An atheist from India
     Reply #5 - September 18, 2014, 09:53 AM

    Mkay. I look forward to hearing more of your story. Afro

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Hi, An atheist from India
     Reply #6 - September 18, 2014, 09:54 AM

    Welcome!  parrot
  • Hi, An atheist from India
     Reply #7 - September 18, 2014, 10:09 AM

    While I'm going through my little research on Islam, I've learned that - even after seeing the 'light', if I don't accept 'the true religion', I'm destined for hell - this is one of the liberal interpretations, I came across, btw.

    So, I chased 'the light', 'darkness' was much more enlightening.  And I explored 'the true rleigion', 'falsehood' appeared more right.  Smiley

    "Who really knows?
    Who will here proclaim it?
    Whence was it produced? Whence is this creation?
    The gods came afterwards, with the creation of this universe.
    Who then knows whence it has arisen?"- Rig Veda, 10:129-6
  • Hi, An atheist from India
     Reply #8 - September 18, 2014, 11:03 AM

    It's not your fault. Nothing happens except by allah's will.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Hi, An atheist from India
     Reply #9 - September 18, 2014, 11:35 AM

    Yep. He's best of the planners. Who are we, puny humans, to question her wisdom.

    Thanks Lua.  :-)

    "Who really knows?
    Who will here proclaim it?
    Whence was it produced? Whence is this creation?
    The gods came afterwards, with the creation of this universe.
    Who then knows whence it has arisen?"- Rig Veda, 10:129-6
  • Hi, An atheist from India
     Reply #10 - September 18, 2014, 11:39 AM

    Welcome to the Forum!

    I do want to ask you a question since you are an Atheist from a Hindu background. You already touched on it with your statement, "I found some deep philosophy in Bhagavad Gita, but completely put off by the caste system it espouses."

    How do you view people who say the following? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bcCUvLGGF9Y

    Is there any truth to this or is this mere ad hoc religious apologetics?
  • Hi, An atheist from India
     Reply #11 - September 18, 2014, 11:41 AM

    Welcome  parrot

    "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
     Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
     Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
     Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God." - Epicurus
  • Hi, An atheist from India
     Reply #12 - September 18, 2014, 12:54 PM

    Welcome! Take:  parrot!

    أشهد أن لا إله
  • Hi, An atheist from India
     Reply #13 - September 18, 2014, 02:07 PM

    Very interesting intro. Great to see another freethinker from South Asia. What you describe happening in your town, as South Asian Muslim culture became more and more imbued with Gulf & Saudi oil money, is so very common. It's happened everywhere in the past 40 years, and it continues to get worse, it seems, in South Asia.

    Looking forward to reading more by you around here. Welcome aboard,  Ar-Razi. Smiley

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Hi, An atheist from India
     Reply #14 - September 18, 2014, 04:59 PM

    Welcome al-Razi Smiley

    I like your nick  Afro
  • Hi, An atheist from India
     Reply #15 - September 18, 2014, 06:07 PM

    Thanks guys.

    Captndisguise,

    Regarding what was said in the video, One word - bollocks. Apologists say all sort of things - that it was purely a socio-economic design, and caste was not limited by birth yada yada.

    But, whatever be the case, it was turned into a such retrogressive, horrendous human rights abusing machine. Whatever have been its advantages, they're completely offset by the social reality we're seeing today. Not only this, Hinduism gifted this system to all the religions which came to India. I've heard that there is still some mild form of caste system practiced among pakistani Muslims too.  In India, it's so hard to erase the reality of caste from a consciousness. Caste trumps religion, in social interactions. I remember reading a western journalist quoting a conversation he had with Goan catholic woman -

    Scribe: So, at least you folks might be glad that, you're out of caste system, since you were converted to catholicism by Portuguese.
    Lady: No way, we were catholic brahmins. And we marry only amongst other Catholic brahmins.

    Later, this journalist reflects on the fact that despite being catholics for last 400 years, her family still remembers that they were brahmins, before being converted to Catholicism as part of Potuguese inquisition !!!

    Apologists are not helping, and most of them, unsurprisingly, are from privileged castes.

    "Who really knows?
    Who will here proclaim it?
    Whence was it produced? Whence is this creation?
    The gods came afterwards, with the creation of this universe.
    Who then knows whence it has arisen?"- Rig Veda, 10:129-6
  • Hi, An atheist from India
     Reply #16 - September 18, 2014, 06:10 PM

    Hi Abu Ali,

    I like your display pic too . It kind of conveys the message of child abuse perpetrated in the name of religion. Such an adorable little child, just heart goes out to see that, she's already covered up.

    "Who really knows?
    Who will here proclaim it?
    Whence was it produced? Whence is this creation?
    The gods came afterwards, with the creation of this universe.
    Who then knows whence it has arisen?"- Rig Veda, 10:129-6
  • Hi, An atheist from India
     Reply #17 - September 18, 2014, 07:50 PM

    Hi Abu Ali,

    I like your display pic too . It kind of conveys the message of child abuse perpetrated in the name of religion. Such an adorable little child, just heart goes out to see that, she's already covered up.


    I challenge anyone to watch this video from near the end at precisely 13.19 - and not get a tear in the eye!

    PS - turn sound up!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2CHm2xigkBc
  • Hi, An atheist from India
     Reply #18 - September 18, 2014, 08:50 PM

    Really sad, kids around the hold holding onto Quran and other Islamic paraphernalia. And probably learning how their beloved Rassool  Mustafa never hurt even an ant.

    "Who really knows?
    Who will here proclaim it?
    Whence was it produced? Whence is this creation?
    The gods came afterwards, with the creation of this universe.
    Who then knows whence it has arisen?"- Rig Veda, 10:129-6
  • Hi, An atheist from India
     Reply #19 - September 18, 2014, 08:55 PM

    Hello Ar-Razi. I am a Hindu born in Sindh, unfortuntaely, now in Pakistan. It is a fact that the caste system is sanctioned in the Hindu scriptures. Also it is a fact that Caste system, the way it is practised in Greater India, has done tremendous harm. There are two very harmful aspects in Hinduism - the practice of untouchability which is extreme form of caste prejudice, unique to South Asia, and the utterly cruel treatment of women, especially widows.

    Hindus suffer from dichotomy - they worship Durga the Mother Goddess, sing praises of Radha and Sita, celebrate women poets like Mira - but they repress women and shamelessly abort female foetuses. Many Hindus educate their daughters but they will not give them the right to marry the men of their choice.

    वासुदैव कुटुम्बकम्
    Entire World is One Family
    سارا سنسار ايک پريوار ہے
  • Hi, An atheist from India
     Reply #20 - September 18, 2014, 09:01 PM

    Hi Ram, Nice to meet you.

    Yes, I agree with what you said.

    Sindhi Hindus left in Pakistan, do they hail from upper caste? Is it the caste system - which made possible for Islam to win so many converts in your province?


    "Who really knows?
    Who will here proclaim it?
    Whence was it produced? Whence is this creation?
    The gods came afterwards, with the creation of this universe.
    Who then knows whence it has arisen?"- Rig Veda, 10:129-6
  • Hi, An atheist from India
     Reply #21 - September 18, 2014, 11:27 PM

    Hey Ar-Razi! My family comes from India, so I'm familiar with Indian Muslim culture and whatnot, though perhaps not with your particular experience/community. It'll be interesting to have you here.
  • Hi, An atheist from India
     Reply #22 - September 19, 2014, 01:42 AM

    - Hi Ram, Nice to meet you.
    - Yes, I agree with what you said.
    - Sindhi Hindus left in Pakistan, do they hail from upper caste? Is it the caste system - which made possible for Islam to win so many converts in your province?

    Sindh was the first Indian region was invaded by Muslims. Muhammad bin Qasem, an Arab Muslim fanatic, conqured Sindh in 711 defeating King Daher. He lined up every Brahmin and beheaded everyone of them. Brahmins were unarmed, they were only priests. He took the princesses along with thousands of women as sex slaves for his soldiers, many were sent to Arabia. Most of Sindhis were forced to convert to save their lives. Please read Dahernama (history of Daher), if possible. 

    वासुदैव कुटुम्बकम्
    Entire World is One Family
    سارا سنسار ايک پريوار ہے
  • Hi, An atheist from India
     Reply #23 - September 19, 2014, 02:40 AM

    Hello Ar-Razi. I am a Hindu born in Sindh, unfortuntaely, now in Pakistan.

    I thought you lived in Canada?

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Hi, An atheist from India
     Reply #24 - September 19, 2014, 07:58 AM

    Hi Iceman, nice to meet you. :-)

    Hi Ram, yeah - I've heard of it, but never got enough motivation to research about it - would be too depressing to read about it. :-(

    "Who really knows?
    Who will here proclaim it?
    Whence was it produced? Whence is this creation?
    The gods came afterwards, with the creation of this universe.
    Who then knows whence it has arisen?"- Rig Veda, 10:129-6
  • Hi, An atheist from India
     Reply #25 - September 22, 2014, 05:43 PM

    I thought you lived in Canada?

    Yes, I do live in Canada. I meant, unfortunately Sindh ended up in Pakistan.

    वासुदैव कुटुम्बकम्
    Entire World is One Family
    سارا سنسار ايک پريوار ہے
  • Hi, An atheist from India
     Reply #26 - September 22, 2014, 08:33 PM

    Hi Abu Ali,

    I like your display pic too . It kind of conveys the message of child abuse perpetrated in the name of religion. Such an adorable little child, just heart goes out to see that, she's already covered up.

    I have endured some of that abuse, which probably explains why I hate that book more than anything else Islam-related.
  • Hi, An atheist from India
     Reply #27 - September 22, 2014, 09:21 PM

     parrot

    I recommend William Dalrymple Nine Lives.

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Hi, An atheist from India
     Reply #28 - September 24, 2014, 05:29 PM

    - How do you view people who say the following? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bcCUvLGGF9Y
    - Is there any truth to this or is this mere ad hoc religious apologetics?

    Actually Dr. Subramaniam Swamy is partially right. The caste system has always been hereditary. Originally the caste system was based on the profession as described in the Vedas. The Vedas only talk about 4 castes. There is no mention of any other caste - it is a fact - unless someone is able to demonstrate otherwise.
    (1) Brahmins ब्राह्मण were hereditary priests. They were teachers and councillors in the courts etc. Only Brahmnis were allowed to read the scriptures. They interpreted scriptures to suit them. (2) Kshatriyas क्षत्रिय were warriors with power - naturally they became rulers (3) Vaishyas वैश्य were traders, they became rich. Craftsmen such as gold smiths, ironworkers, weavers etc. belonged to Vaishya caste. (4) Shudras शूद्र were labourers, performing menial work, remained very poor. 

    वासुदैव कुटुम्बकम्
    Entire World is One Family
    سارا سنسار ايک پريوار ہے
  • Hi, An atheist from India
     Reply #29 - September 24, 2014, 06:03 PM

    Over time each caste was divided in sub-castes, sub-sub-castes, sub-sub-sub-castes and so on. But still the caste remained hereditary. I am not expert on this - but the caste system in India became very complicated, perhaps, due to increase in population and also many invaders settling in India. Each invader brought new skill unknown in India, brought their own dieties, each group organized their own caste system. Craftsmen established guilds (very much like those in Europe), in turn each guild became a caste, for example, Sonar सोनार goldsmith caste, Lohar लोहार metal worker caste, Weaver caste and so on. Brahmins divided themselves in many castes, Chaturvedi चतुर्वेदी Brahmins who read 4 Vedas, Trivedi त्रिवेदी Brahmins who read 3 Vedas and so on. Each region of India had its own unique system of division, creating hundreds or thousands of new castes - total nightmare. Barhmins and Shudras have the largest number of sub-castes. Now there are thousands of hereditary castes in India, depending upon their specialty, or the community they belong to. There is no single caste in overall majority.

    वासुदैव कुटुम्बकम्
    Entire World is One Family
    سارا سنسار ايک پريوار ہے
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