Materialism/Physicalism

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OP - September 12, 2014, 02:19 AM

How many of you guys subscribe to physicalism? Even though you may reject all theistic conceptions of God do you ever think that there has got to be something more to this world than pure physics and chemistry and such? Or perhaps there is something similar to a "soul" that is a non-material basis for some our thinking and feelings that would survive death?

I think many times people use the terms atheist and materialist interchangeably, but I think you can still be an atheist and not think that everything is predetermined or there is a deeper aspect of life than just biochemistry.

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Reply #1 - September 12, 2014, 06:23 AM

Let me put the response this way. Everything needs form in order to be distinguishable from the background. What that form is made of being it physical matter in our universe, a spiritual matter or whatever is up to question. Without form there is no mind, no acts, no thoughts.
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Reply #2 - September 12, 2014, 08:07 AM

OP, I think about this question a lot.

Philosophies like Panpsychism are completely compatible with atheism.

Panpsychism is the idea that since our brains are only constructed of the same inanimate atoms that make up rocks and tables, yet we experience consciousness, there must be a small amount of consciousness in everything.

How else can consciousness be produced in the brain? Nothing can be more than the sum of it's parts. If there isn't the components of consciousness in every atom of the brain, then where does consciousness come from?

I'm not saying I believe this to be true, it's just and example of how non-materialism is still compatible with atheism.

Myself, what do I believe? I'll be honest. I dislike the current scientific materialism because it, when taken to it's logical conclusion, doesn't seem to leave room for free will.

The misspelling in my name is intentional, because I'm an idiot and I can't spell properly. But I'd probably also say that even if it was a mistake. Does that clear things up?
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Reply #3 - September 12, 2014, 01:04 PM

Dialectical and historical materialist here.
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Reply #4 - September 13, 2014, 01:58 AM

I am beginning to be interested in pantheism. I think I do find something like Village Idiot describes as plausible. I never considered myself a real spiritual person until I gave up religion and I think I am kinda looking for a bit of a benign emotional crutch of a belief system that I can hold onto when my existential worries crop up. Nothing with any sort of judgement or fear to it. Kinda just like how a book of fiction can prop you up even though you know it is not true. Or like a good thought to hold onto in hard times.

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Reply #5 - September 13, 2014, 05:44 AM

Quote from: justpersuing
I am beginning to be interested in pantheism. I think I do find something like Village Idiot describes as plausible. I never considered myself a real spiritual person until I gave up religion and I think I am kinda looking for a bit of a benign emotional crutch of a belief system that I can hold onto when my existential worries crop up. Nothing with any sort of judgement or fear to it. Kinda just like how a book of fiction can prop you up even though you know it is not true. Or like a good thought to hold onto in hard times.

Just to clarify, what I described above is Panpsychism not Pantheism. Pantheism is the belief in more than one God.

I find the thought that we are living in a vast universe that doesn't care about human beings to be a dismal thought too. I may care about the poor children of the world born into war or poverty, but the universe doesn't give a hoot, and one day the sun will consume the Earth and that may be the end of intelligent life. Especially if the universe just keeps expanding forever, as some scientists believe.

Renounced bishop Richard Holloway believes that the defiant act of two (or more) human beings coming together and genuinely caring about each other is enough to give the finger to the careless universe. The down side though, is that many people never find someone who cares about them, and remain an alien amongst the normal.

The misspelling in my name is intentional, because I'm an idiot and I can't spell properly. But I'd probably also say that even if it was a mistake. Does that clear things up?
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Reply #6 - September 13, 2014, 07:07 AM

I kind of believe mind and matter are connected too but i don't think we have much influence over certain types matter what ever they may be, reminds me of emoto's water experiments where thought altered the shape of the droplets, there's a lot of mention of panthyschicm in islam actually, well in all religions such as praying over meals, into a vessel of water, doing things with positive intention, healing etc, it's interesting, true it can appeal to an athiest also, not sure why people always asscoiate it with religion and spirituality.
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Reply #7 - September 13, 2014, 08:30 AM

Quote from: suki
I kind of believe mind and matter are connected too but i don't think we have much influence over certain types matter what ever they may be, reminds me of emoto's water experiments where thought altered the shape of the droplets, there's a lot of mention of panthyschicm in islam actually, well in all religions such as praying over meals, into a vessel of water, doing things with positive intention, healing etc, it's interesting, true it can appeal to an athiest also, not sure why people always asscoiate it with religion and spirituality.

I don't think those water experiments were ever scientifically validated. I believe that the offer was put out, but Emoto has ignored it.

I've never actually considered how much Panpsychism is interwoven in religion, but you're right. It's like how we don't like to say something bad about a dead person. There is book called Panpsychism In The West, which I believe is the seminal work on the topic, but I found the text dry and difficult to read. I was also too dumb too understand what the author was saying during many parts.

The misspelling in my name is intentional, because I'm an idiot and I can't spell properly. But I'd probably also say that even if it was a mistake. Does that clear things up?
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Reply #8 - September 13, 2014, 08:34 PM

Pantheism is the belief that the universe is God. I think you understood it regarding a pantheon of gods. Anyway, I should look into Panpsychism as that is definitely an interesting hypothesis. Now what would constitute evidence for such a belief

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Reply #9 - September 14, 2014, 01:26 AM

Quote
Pantheism is the belief that the universe is God. I think you understood it regarding a pantheon of gods. Anyway, I should look into Panpsychism as that is definitely an interesting hypothesis. Now what would constitute evidence for such a belief Huh?

Thanks for correcting that. I was thinking of Polytheism, which is the belief in more than one God

As for evidence of Panpsychism, the bizarre behavior of Quantum Physics is possibly suggestive of this.

Here are some arguments in favor of it:

http://www.amazon.com.au/Consciousness-Encounters-Quantum-Physics-Panpsychism-ebook/dp/B007OOS3ZE/ref=sr_1_3?s=digital-text&ie=UTF8&qid=1410657425&sr=1-3

Product Description:

Consciousness is the most familiar phenomenon. Yet it is the hardest one to explain. Even today, it is still unclear whether and how consciousness emerges from mere matter or whether consciousness is a fundamental property of matter. The crux of the issue is to decide if consciousness has causal efficacies in the physical world, which is not classical but quantum at the deepest level. If consciousness is fundamental as panpsychism holds, then the fundamental consciousness property should take part in the causal chains of the quantum world and should present itself in our investigation of the world. Is consciousness causally efficient in the quantum world then? How to find the quantum physical effects of consciousness if they indeed exist?

This book will propose a promising solution to the hard problem of consciousness by investigating the possible quantum effects of consciousness. Admittedly, it has been a hot topic of debate whether there is a subtle connection between quantum physics and consciousness. Different from the existing speculations, the analysis of the book is based on the well-accepted assumption that quantum processes such as quantum measurements are objective physical processes, independent of the consciousness of observers. To our great surprise, however, this banal assumption may have profound implications for the nature of consciousness. For it implies that a conscious being can distinguish definite perceptions and their quantum superpositions under certain conditions, while a measuring system without consciousness cannot distinguish such quantum states. The existence of this distinct physical effect of consciousness further implies that consciousness is not emergent but a fundamental feature of the universe. This provides a convincing scientific argument for panpsychism.

The misspelling in my name is intentional, because I'm an idiot and I can't spell properly. But I'd probably also say that even if it was a mistake. Does that clear things up?
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Reply #10 - September 15, 2014, 01:42 PM

Quote from: Villiage_Idiot on September 12, 2014, 08:07 AM
Panpsychism is the idea that since our brains are only constructed of the same inanimate atoms that make up rocks and tables, yet we experience consciousness, there must be a small amount of consciousness in everything.

The fact that humans are conscious does not imply that atoms, and rocks, are conscious. Macroscopic structures can have emergent properties.
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Reply #11 - September 15, 2014, 02:30 PM

I have no idea. Maybe since I've just left Islam, there's not much caring in me at the moment for such questions.
Could we have a soul? maybe.
Could there be a spiritual plane? maybe.

However, I have become much more grounded in physical reality for most practical things.
I view things like meditation as useful for its calming effect on the brain.

If anything I spend more time pondering the 'weird' science (quantum physics, string theory...). Equally as breathtaking as spirituality, but in a more physical plane.

Maybe I'll come back around to the spiritual plane one day.
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Reply #12 - September 15, 2014, 02:49 PM

I tend to reflect on events and ideas more now than I did as a believer. God was used often as a cop-out when dealing with issues that I was never personally involved in.
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Reply #13 - September 15, 2014, 05:38 PM

I am pantheistic. I do feel that it's actually logical to consider that the universe and all existence consists of vasts amount of reality outside the parameters of what our brains can perceive, process or interpret. I find Lacan's theory of the Real to be very interesting in this regard, among many others in different cultures. I think it would be rather obstinate and naive of me to presume that as humans we are the central intellectual entity in the universe poised and capable of completely understanding the vastly more complex ocean from which we sprang.

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Reply #14 - September 15, 2014, 06:09 PM

Quote from: allat on September 15, 2014, 05:38 PM
I am pantheistic. I do feel that it's actually logical to consider that the universe and all existence consists of vasts amount of reality outside the parameters of what our brains can perceive, process or interpret. I find Lacan's theory of the Real to be very interesting in this regard, among many others in different cultures. I think it would be rather obstinate and naive of me to presume that as humans we are the central intellectual entity in the universe poised and capable of completely understanding the vastly more complex ocean from which we sprang.

But Lacan wasn't referring to a kind of heideggerian dasein/existential metaphysical authenticity, was he? the real is inextricably tied up with the very material symbolic (and to a lesser extent imaginary.) I find Zizek's melange of Hegel, Marx and Lacan to be very interesting in this regard. I'm just struggling to understand how Lacan ties in with pantheism, when surely it was Heidegger who was the inaugural philosopher of (post)metaphysics?
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Reply #15 - September 15, 2014, 10:49 PM

Quote from: Descent on September 15, 2014, 01:42 PM
The fact that humans are conscious does not imply that atoms, and rocks, are conscious. Macroscopic structures can have emergent properties.

Consciousness is one heck on an emergent property. But then again, LIFE is one heck on an emergent property. So, who knows?

What you've mentioned above is just one argument though. The book above isn't basing it's arguments on that. Professor Shan Gao (professor of chemistry, I think) believes some of the weirdness of quantum physics indicates a panpsychist world. The bizarre behaviors of particles at the quantum level possibly suggests that mind is a fundamental part of all matter. (You've all heard of Schrodinger's cat, I'm guessing?)

I'm not saying I believe this. It's just not something I'm ready to rule out yet.

The misspelling in my name is intentional, because I'm an idiot and I can't spell properly. But I'd probably also say that even if it was a mistake. Does that clear things up?
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Reply #16 - September 15, 2014, 10:53 PM

I've have also read a lot of work involving QM and consciousness. Ideas ranging from spiritual, religious to naturalism
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Reply #17 - September 15, 2014, 10:55 PM

On the topic of quantum physics and Schrodinger's cat:

Consciousness cannot be accounted for in physical terms. For consciousness is absolutely fundamental.
— Erwin Schrödinger

The misspelling in my name is intentional, because I'm an idiot and I can't spell properly. But I'd probably also say that even if it was a mistake. Does that clear things up?
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Reply #18 - September 15, 2014, 11:48 PM

If humans were the only species with consciousness that would seem more likely to me. Self awareness at different levels is easily observed in many creatures.

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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Reply #19 - September 16, 2014, 08:58 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FgFgUIBi9I4

My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
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Reply #20 - September 16, 2014, 09:24 AM

Quote from: Villiage_Idiot on September 15, 2014, 10:49 PM
What you've mentioned above is just one argument though. The book above isn't basing it's arguments on that. Professor Shan Gao (professor of chemistry, I think) believes some of the weirdness of quantum physics indicates a panpsychist world. The bizarre behaviors of particles at the quantum level possibly suggests that mind is a fundamental part of all matter. (You've all heard of Schrodinger's cat, I'm guessing?)

I haven't read the book. If you have, please summarize how QM indicates a panpsychist world.

Everyone seems to be using quantum theory nowadays as the mechanism for their speculations.
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Reply #21 - September 16, 2014, 09:27 AM

Annoying isn't it.

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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Reply #22 - September 16, 2014, 11:51 PM

Quote
I haven't read the book. If you have, please summarize how QM indicates a panpsychist world.

Everyone seems to be using quantum theory nowadays as the mechanism for their speculations.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating that people take up a belief in Panpsychism. I'm a firm believer that people should wait for evidence before committing to this theory. The OP simply asked whether atheists can be non-materialists too, please realize that I was only trying to answer this question.

I know that movies such as What The Bleep Do We Know? gave a misrepresenting view of quantum physics, but those kind of movies also inspired quite a few people to look into real QM too, so it's not all bad.

I haven't read the whole book, just the kindle sample. So, I can't tell you the whole theory professor Shan Gao presents, but it appears to do with Superpositions.

You're obviously familiar with QM but perhaps not everyone is, so I'll summarize what Superpositions are from Wikipedia:

A Quantum Superposition is a fundamental principle of quantum mechanics that holds a physical system—such as an electron—exists partly in all its particular theoretically possible states (or, configuration of its properties) simultaneously; but when measured or observed, it gives a result corresponding to only one of the possible configurations.

This gives rise to the famous Schrodinger's Cat. The cat is both alive and dead until it is observed. Why does observation have such an effect? And does it have anything to do with the nature of consciousness? There are obviously no answers to these questions yet (and anyone who claims they have the answers, is lying) but hopefully there will be some day. I'm not yet ready to rule out Panpsychism.

The misspelling in my name is intentional, because I'm an idiot and I can't spell properly. But I'd probably also say that even if it was a mistake. Does that clear things up?
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Reply #23 - September 17, 2014, 11:51 AM

Quote from: Villiage_Idiot
Now don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating that people take up a belief in Panpsychism. I'm a firm believer that people should wait for evidence before committing to this theory. The OP simply asked whether atheists can be non-materialists too, please realize that I was only trying to answer this question.

I don't see how you would get evidence for a philosophical concept that is not testable. How would you show that a rock has consciousness?

Quote from: Villiage_Idiot
A Quantum Superposition is a fundamental principle of quantum mechanics that holds a physical system—such as an electron—exists partly in all its particular theoretically possible states (or, configuration of its properties) simultaneously; but when measured or observed, it gives a result corresponding to only one of the possible configurations.

This gives rise to the famous Schrodinger's Cat. The cat is both alive and dead until it is observed. Why does observation have such an effect? And does it have anything to do with the nature of consciousness? There are obviously no answers to these questions yet (and anyone who claims they have the answers, is lying) but hopefully there will be some day. I'm not yet ready to rule out Panpsychism.

Measurements do not have to include a conscious observer. Consciousness is completely irrelevant. Wavefunction collapse happens because of an interaction with an external environment, ie. the measuring device. It happens whether a human is taking the measurements or a machine. Hell, you could use a measuring device that didn't even show the results and the wavefunction would still collapse.

Not to mention that the "quantum weirdness" of the wavefunction ends long before you observe it due to decoherence. Early proponents of the "consciousness causing collapse" interpretation, like Wigner, ended up rejecting it completely after later works on decoherence.

I will say that this interpretation is still accepted by small minority of physicists, however it's not testable and less convincing than other interpretations. Of course, interpretations of QM are really more of philosophy.
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Reply #24 - September 17, 2014, 02:31 PM

Quote from: justperusing on September 12, 2014, 02:19 AM
How many of you guys subscribe to physicalism? Even though you may reject all theistic conceptions of God do you ever think that there has got to be something more to this world than pure physics and chemistry and such? Or perhaps there is something similar to a "soul" that is a non-material basis for some our thinking and feelings that would survive death?

I think many times people use the terms atheist and materialist interchangeably, but I think you can still be an atheist and not think that everything is predetermined or there is a deeper aspect of life than just biochemistry.

justperusing says something that I want to put some limits..

If there is "SOMETHING" to life beyond just Chemistry, bio-chemistry , Physics, and other basic science that run around atoms and molecules., Then.. I can assure you that religions of cave dwellers will not tell you anything about that "SOMETHING" The inquiry in to that " SOMETHING" has to go through the same process that all fields of science go through..

So first let us get rid of religious rubbish on that "SOMETHING" then we will deal with the method and process of inquiring about that "SOMETHING"

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Reply #25 - September 20, 2014, 10:42 PM

Quote from: Villiage_Idiot on September 14, 2014, 01:26 AM
Consciousness is the most familiar phenomenon. Yet it is the hardest one to explain. Even today, it is still unclear whether and how consciousness emerges from mere matter or whether consciousness is a fundamental property of matter. The crux of the issue is to decide if consciousness has causal efficacies in the physical world, which is not classical but quantum at the deepest level. If consciousness is fundamental as panpsychism holds, then the fundamental consciousness property should take part in the causal chains of the quantum world and should present itself in our investigation of the world. Is consciousness causally efficient in the quantum world then? How to find the quantum physical effects of consciousness if they indeed exist?

Dont think its hard to explain. I think of consciousness as a result of language and nothing else. Conscousness is an ill-defined term but it seems to me to mean the inner monologue each of us has, which is entirely a result of language.

Language, now that is something worth talking about.
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Reply #26 - September 21, 2014, 05:36 AM

Quote from: Quod Sum Eris on September 16, 2014, 09:27 AM
Annoying isn't it.

It's the new god of the gaps
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Reply #27 - September 21, 2014, 08:10 AM

Gaps, witchcraft, either one.

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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Reply #28 - September 23, 2014, 12:14 PM

Quote
If there is "SOMETHING" to life beyond just Chemistry, bio-chemistry , Physics, and other basic science that run around atoms and molecules., Then.. I can assure you that religions of cave dwellers will not tell you anything about that "SOMETHING" The inquiry in to that " SOMETHING" has to go through the same process that all fields of science go through..

So first let us get rid of religious rubbish on that "SOMETHING" then we will deal with the method and process of inquiring about that "SOMETHING"

Well said. Let's get religion out of the way first.

The misspelling in my name is intentional, because I'm an idiot and I can't spell properly. But I'd probably also say that even if it was a mistake. Does that clear things up?
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