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Theme Changer

 Topic: Police steal dead children's identities

 (Read 2982 times)
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  • Police steal dead children's identities
     OP - September 11, 2014, 10:16 PM

    Police chiefs ordered to disclose more details of undercover infiltration

    Quote
    Police lose battle to keep secret information about the theft of dead children's identities

    Police chiefs have been ordered to disclose more details of one of its most controversial undercover techniques.

    The order, made by an official watchdog, centres on the theft of dead children's identities. It is a practice that has attracted a lot of criticismfrom the public, including MPs who called it "ghoulish and heartless".

    In what police accept was "common practice", undercover officers stole the identities of dead children when they assumed fake identities to infiltrate political groups. The parents of the children were never consulted or informed.

    These articles here, hereand here describe how the undercover officers trawled through birth and death certificates to find a suitable candidate.

    The furore compelled Bernard Hogan-Howe, the commissioner of the Metropolitan Police, to issue a general apology for "the shock and offence the use of this tactic has caused" among the public.

    However police chiefs made it very clear that they refused to tell any specific families if the identities of their children were stolen, as it could lead to the exposure of the undercover officers.

    They have argued that the safety of their undercover officers is more important than the need to tell the families.

    However it seems that at least one person has not let it lie. This person - who has not been named - used the freedom of information act to request the ages of the dead children whose identities were stolen by the undercover officers.

    Now the Information Commissioner, Christopher Graham, has decided against the Metropolitan Police and ordered them to disclose the ages.

    He dismissed the Met's arguments in his decision which can be found here.

    The person who requested the ages argued that the information could help the families who lost children by a process of elimination.

    The requester argued (see paragraph 68) that by confirming which ages were used by the undercover officers, the Met would also be confirming which ages were not used.

    As the Information Commissioner points out (paragraph 22), "what disclosure may allow is for an affected family to be satisfied that their child was not one of those identities used as they died, for example, at the age of 2 and no officer used the details of a child of this age."

    The Information Commissioner found this argument to be "particularly compelling" (paragraph 69) as it may give some form of relief to surviving relatives.

    The Met must hand over the list of ages unless it lodges an appeal by September 14. However one person who is already happy to step forward and assist the families is Peter Francis, the former undercover officer who has blown the whistle on his former unit, the Special Demonstration Squad.

    He says that the age of the boy whose identity he stole was five. The boy died of brain cancer.

    Since Francis started speaking out, he has made a series of disclosures about the SDS. In 2013, he described how he felt as if he was "stomping on the grave" of the boy whose identity he stole. He said he always felt guilty "celebrating" his fake birthday knowing that somewhere the parents of the boy would be "thinking about their son and missing him". (He spoke in this videounder his now-discarded pseudonym of 'Peter Black').

    The ages of two other children whose identities were stolen are also already known. Bob Lambert, who worked undercover in the 1980s, used the identity of a boy who died of a congenital heart defect at the age of seven.

    One of his colleagues, John Dines, adopted the identity of an eight-year-old boy who died of leukaemia when he pretended to be a social justice campaigner with the name of John Barker.

    Hat tip to Jon Baines at the Information Rights and Wrongs blog for by the Information Commissioner.


    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Police steal dead children's identities
     Reply #1 - September 11, 2014, 10:19 PM

    Fix the links FFS. Tongue

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Police steal dead children's identities
     Reply #2 - September 11, 2014, 10:22 PM

    It's a weird thing. Every time I post short cuts like that it always posts fucked up as you just saw, I have to edit after posting every time and then, when I edit it the way I originally posted it, it works. Huh?

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Police steal dead children's identities
     Reply #3 - September 11, 2014, 10:25 PM

    Yeah some sites have crap embedded in linked text. It's a nuisance when copy/pasting. Anyway I can read it now. Thanks.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Police steal dead children's identities
     Reply #4 - September 11, 2014, 10:27 PM

    I seem to get this no matter the site. I figured it was CEMB.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Police steal dead children's identities
     Reply #5 - September 11, 2014, 10:27 PM

    Interesting issue. On the one hand I can see the usefulness of this tactic, and it probably doesn't cause any actual harm (although it conceivably could under some circumstances).

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Police steal dead children's identities
     Reply #6 - September 11, 2014, 10:48 PM

    This tactic has been used for years and years.  There is nothing at all ghoulish about it, and it is the easiest way to protect undercover officers.

    It isn't as though officers are stealing identities to commit criminal acts.  In fact, they aren't really stealing identities at all, they are simply assuming an identity which they can mould to fit themselves.

    I recommend wearing a Snoopy T shirt and carrying a Woolworths carrier bag ---- it always worked for me.

    Kind Regards,
    Stephen.
  • Police steal dead children's identities
     Reply #7 - September 11, 2014, 10:52 PM

    TBH the biggest problem here seems to be "ZOMG! Dead babies!".

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Police steal dead children's identities
     Reply #8 - September 11, 2014, 11:43 PM

    Forgive me if I seem callous about this, but the children are long dead, and cannot in any way be harmed or affected by this.  It has been a standard procedure for many years, and helps officers to build a verifiable character.

    Stealing an identity in order to commit criminal deception is a serious crime.  Assuming an identity to infiltrate criminal organisations is a legitimate procedure.

    Criminals get the names of dead babies from grave stones or coroner's lists.  It is then a simple process to get a copy birth certificate, after which you can apply for passports, driving licences, etc. 

    Hope that takes a little of the emotion out of this.

    Kind Regards,
    Stephen.
  • Police steal dead children's identities
     Reply #9 - September 11, 2014, 11:51 PM

    I don't think anyone has been emotional about this. I know that when I read it I didn't fall off my chair, and osmanthus isn't exactly failing about wildly. I'm mostly curious about other peoples reactions.

    I suppose I can understand how a parent would be aghast at someone using the name of their child, celebrating their child's birthday and whatnot. But honestly I don't really see it as ghoulish either.

    Although I have to say, I was more inclined to think that fake identities were used more commonly that adopting real identities.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Police steal dead children's identities
     Reply #10 - September 12, 2014, 01:19 AM

    Hello Quod,

    As regards identities, there's nothing like the real thing.

    As long as you find a child who would be around the age of the identity user, the rest is very easy. 

    Fake identities are okay if you are in a hurry but, if it is necessary to infiltrate a serious criminal organisation, only the best will do.

    Nothing but the birth certificate and NI number are actually original; the rest is applied for by the ID user.  Naturally, a baby who died 35 years ago cannot hold a driving licence or credit card, so it is highly unlikely that the parents would be any the wiser.  (I have never known of a case in which parents found out)

    Kind Regards,
    Stephen.
  • Police steal dead children's identities
     Reply #11 - September 12, 2014, 01:22 AM

    I am wondering about death though. A birth certificate I can see as there's nothing about your death on it, but is the NI number still valid once it's on the record you're six feet under? Not sure how it works.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Police steal dead children's identities
     Reply #12 - September 12, 2014, 07:34 AM

    Things may have changed, but I believe that a NI number remains open.  It is a unique number, and cannot be reissued.

    There should be no reason now, in this world of computers, that use of a deceased person's NI number shouldn't flag up.

    I suppose it just hasn't been an issue up to now.

    Kind Regards,
    Stephen.
  • Police steal dead children's identities
     Reply #13 - September 12, 2014, 09:34 AM

    Could this ever cause problems for the real parents?

    A birth certificate would contain the names of the dead child's real parents, wouldn't it?

    If an undercover policeman was using a dead child's birth certificate, wouldn't he also be using the names of that child's parents too, pretending they're his?

    I wouldn't like some angry criminal to look up who this (undercover) guy's parents are because he wants revenge.

    The misspelling in my name is intentional, because I'm an idiot and I can't spell properly. But I'd probably also say that even if it was a mistake. Does that clear things up?
  • Police steal dead children's identities
     Reply #14 - September 12, 2014, 09:00 PM

    Hi Shirly,

    The Police Service use the birth certificate to secure other documents, which do not contain details of the parents.  It is not used during any infiltration of a criminal organisation.

    Criminals also use this method of gaining new identities, though they are not as careful as the authorities.

    Kind Regards,
    Stephen.
  • Police steal dead children's identities
     Reply #15 - September 13, 2014, 08:13 AM

    Quote
    The Police Service use the birth certificate to secure other documents, which do not contain details of the parents.  It is not used during any infiltration of a criminal organisation.

    Criminals also use this method of gaining new identities, though they are not as careful as the authorities.


    So, criminals definitely have no way of tracing the parents of an assumed identity? An undercover cop using the name Joe Brown can't have Mr and Mrs Brown looked up on the net (maybe one of those family tracing sites?) or through other means?

    The misspelling in my name is intentional, because I'm an idiot and I can't spell properly. But I'd probably also say that even if it was a mistake. Does that clear things up?
  • Police steal dead children's identities
     Reply #16 - October 24, 2014, 09:25 PM

    How it worked in practice: Bob Lambert, police spy, sex infiltrator, state adviser on Islamism: the Met pays out
  • Police steal dead children's identities
     Reply #17 - October 25, 2014, 02:27 AM

    Ta, reading now. popcorn

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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