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Theme Changer

 Topic: Democracy ----- What Democracy?

 (Read 4070 times)
  • 1« Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Democracy ----- What Democracy?
     OP - September 04, 2014, 01:56 PM

    We are, or so we believe, the most intelligent animal on the planet.  Our powers of speech and ability to understand in the abstract separates us from lesser animals.
    Given our superior communicative abilities, how is it that so few people understand the meaning of the word, "Democracy" ?   News and political programmes sprinkle the word around like confetti, and the general public appear not to understand it at all.
    Use of the phrase, Western Democracy, gives the impression that the people have a say in how their country is governed, but this is a very long way from the truth.
    Multi-National Corporations have far more influence over governments than do the citizens of a country, and the fact that we get to vote every few years merely perpetuates the sad illusion of free democracy.
    The European Union, contrary to what politicians want us to believe, is simply a mechanism designed to shift the levers of power further away from the electorate.  This is achieved by the creation of several more layers of bureaucracy, making public involvement and political accountability impossible.
    I have long been an advocate of Swiss Democracy.  The Swiss people do not simply vote for someone else to make their decisions for them, but exercise their right to vote on issues which affect their lives.  It is called direct democracy, and the citizens, not the government, are sovereign. 
    If you look at the huge gap between government policy and public opinion, you must arrive at the conclusion that we live in a parliamentary dictatorship.  The main reason that turnout at elections is so low is that the general public feel marginalised and totally disenfranchised from the decision making process.
    Whatever you choose to call our political system, you need to find a better word to describe it than democracy.

    Kind Regards,
    Stephen.
  • Democracy ----- What Democracy?
     Reply #1 - September 04, 2014, 02:18 PM

    We are, or so we believe, the most intelligent animal on the planet.  Our powers of speech and ability to understand in the abstract separates us from lesser animals.
    Given our superior communicative abilities, how is it that so few people understand the meaning of the word, "Democracy" ?   ....................

    Kind Regards,
    Stephen.

    Hello Stephen., Well animals have their own superior communicative skills.  it is true we are   the most intelligent animal on the planet  but  that question has simple answer., , what all we can say to that question is " We are still evolving .. Some are more evolved than others"

    off course that doesn't answer all of your questions and problems with parliamentary democracy  but we will discuss them in time..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Democracy ----- What Democracy?
     Reply #2 - September 04, 2014, 07:14 PM

    Dear Yeezevee,

    I look forward with alacrity to our discussion on parliamentary democracy.

    Kind Regards,
    Stephen.
  • Democracy ----- What Democracy?
     Reply #3 - October 17, 2014, 10:06 PM

    The main reason that turnout at elections is so low is that the general public feel marginalised and totally disenfranchised from the decision making process.
    Whatever you choose to call our political system, you need to find a better word to describe it than democracy.

    Kind Regards,
    Stephen.


    I think the main reason that turnout at elections is so low is because most people are very comfortable with their lives and they can't be bothered.
  • Democracy ----- What Democracy?
     Reply #4 - October 18, 2014, 07:09 AM

    Elvis had left the building Rob.

    Other reasons include disinterest, apathy, a prevalent perception that very little changes regardless of who is elected, the first past the post system which often means the electorate feels their vote will be pointless unless it's in a marginal seat, laziness, a failure to grasp the differences in the parties and their policies, and a general disillusionment and distrust of politicians and of the political system.

    Hi
  • Democracy ----- What Democracy?
     Reply #5 - October 18, 2014, 01:15 PM

    All true, musivore, but I like my answer better cool2 because it applies to me.
  • Democracy ----- What Democracy?
     Reply #6 - October 18, 2014, 02:33 PM

    Elvis had left the building Rob.

    Other reasons include disinterest, apathy, a prevalent perception that very little changes regardless of who is elected, the first past the post system which often means
    the electorate feels their vote will be pointless unless it's in a marginal seat, laziness, a failure to grasp the differences in the parties and their policies, and a general disillusionment and distrust of politicians and of the political system.

    musivore..

    1). you  can not call them as electorate., If they are living and will not vote.,

    2)  those pessimistic scoundrels who don't vote but  talk about general disillusionment and distrust of politics  MUST BE FINED some 1000 rs/dollars/pounds.. whatever is the currency of the country  and those who don't pay the fine should be put in to community service/jails for 3months or so....

    RASCALS have nothing to do in life  but talk nonsense and do not participate in election process  

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Democracy ----- What Democracy?
     Reply #7 - October 18, 2014, 04:17 PM

    Rob, yezeeve is having a go at you  whistling2

    Hi
  • Democracy ----- What Democracy?
     Reply #8 - October 18, 2014, 05:01 PM

    Capitalism, Socialism, & Democracy by Joseph Schumpeter

     Democracy in Brief The Korean way.,  What Is Democracy? - US Department of State

    Democracy, It s Principles and Achievements

    Legitimacy Problem in a Deliberative Democracy

    Can Democracy Solve All Problems?

    The Challenges of Democracy

    well let us read some stuff  before jump in to  a hot discussion...

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Democracy ----- What Democracy?
     Reply #9 - October 20, 2014, 11:14 PM

    Not going to read all of that  right now because I'm about to go to sleep but here's a further question to debate:
    "Has Democracy had it's time?"
    Supplementary to that:
    "Should we have government by technocrats"

    Just some sketchy thoughts...
    There's not much idiological difference between political parties because the big arguments have been won.
    There's been enough research in things like education, medicine, sexuality, social interaction. We now have some idea of what should work.

    Essentially, I'm postulating that we are now ready to move on to government by evidence based policies rather than government by opinion.
  • Democracy ----- What Democracy?
     Reply #10 - October 22, 2014, 03:56 PM

    I appreciate that this is turning into a pretty slow discussion between you and me Rob, with the occasional linked or otherwise interjection from Yeez. But, I'll continue.

    Interesting idea Rob. Are you saying we should be more like China? You're probably not... What you do say doesn't sound ideal for now IMO. The government of technocrats would necessarily be narrow enough in it's encompassing of political leanings, in order to achieve consensus on important issues. Because of this, it will effectively be a dictatorship, albeit one that lies in the middle between left and right. Although, this could be workable, IMO it would throttle views to the right and left, as well as any reactionary and dynamic views. In Britain's current political landscape for instance, this world mean that the likes of the Greens and Ukip, and even blue Tories and red Labourites, would not have a voice. Is this healthy? In some cases possibly. In others, it could be prove to be a bit of a loss.

    In my view, there are subtle differences between centrist parties in the west. It is often good for a country to alternate between these periodically, in order to redress the imbalance created by one side or another. The people on the left and right of each side are there to remind the majority not to get too comfortable in the middle. So, although not prefect, it may be an idea to carry on as we are for now?

    Hi
  • Democracy ----- What Democracy?
     Reply #11 - October 22, 2014, 07:02 PM

    Rob, yezeeve is having a go at you  whistling2


    meh. so what.
  • Democracy ----- What Democracy?
     Reply #12 - October 22, 2014, 07:49 PM

    I appreciate that this is turning into a pretty slow discussion between you and me Rob, with the occasional linked or otherwise interjection from Yeez. But, I'll continue.

    Interesting idea Rob. Are you saying we should be more like China? You're probably not... What you do say doesn't sound ideal for now IMO. The government of technocrats would necessarily be narrow enough in it's encompassing of political leanings, in order to achieve consensus on important issues. Because of this, it will effectively be a dictatorship, albeit one that lies in the middle between left and right. Although, this could be workable, IMO it would throttle views to the right and left, as well as any reactionary and dynamic views. In Britain's current political landscape for instance, this world mean that the likes of the Greens and Ukip, and even blue Tories and red Labourites, would not have a voice. Is this healthy? In some cases possibly. In others, it could be prove to be a bit of a loss.

    In my view, there are subtle differences between centrist parties in the west. It is often good for a country to alternate between these periodically, in order to redress the imbalance created by one side or another. The people on the left and right of each side are there to remind the majority not to get too comfortable in the middle. So, although not prefect, it may be an idea to carry on as we are for now?


    Look. I admit this hasn't been thought out very hard but I think there's something to consider rather than dismiss out of hand. You, for example, mentioned green politics. It's entirely plausible that my putative model of governance would lead to some green policies being adopted if there was evidence they were beneficial. And yes, there may be a certain amount of dictatorship involved. If food air miles are undesirable, is it really acceptable to fly in grapes, even if everyone does want to eat them?
    As it happens, China was at the back of my mind. Government in China appears to me to be for the benefit of the middle class and the party rather than benefit of the people but would China be such a bad place to live if there was freedom of expression, human rights and open government added to what they have now?
    Possibly, the answer lies with Technocrats dealing with the stuff that is testable while politicians deal with everything that is left over (I'm thinking of Bank of England contolling interest rates as an example).
  • Democracy ----- What Democracy?
     Reply #13 - October 22, 2014, 08:30 PM

    I have a distaste for politicians in general. They seem to me to be wannabe stars, but without any real talent in any discipline that would help them achieve that status. Humility is a good quality to have IMO. And you lose that the instant you step forward as a politician. Maybe I'm being harsh... But your model seems good in that sense. I prefer the sound of nerdy men and women in grey suits running the show... Ironically, they may get my vote.

    Hi
  • Democracy ----- What Democracy?
     Reply #14 - October 23, 2014, 11:22 AM

    meh. so what.

     Cheesy Cheesy   Hello Rob.............   How are you doing??

    Just for a second., let us go back in-time ..say some 2000 years and learn about different forms of governments.,   such as

     – monarchy, tyranny, aristocracy, oligarchy., Cailphats, Muslim Kings and rulers in so-called Islamic lands,  dictatorships,  Polpotism.,   Communist regimes starting from that Juice Karl Marx theory to Marxism, Leninism, Maoism., North Koreanism and our Cubanism  etc..etc.. and   elections  Democracy/ presidential/ parliamentary ...  

    Of all those and other forms of governments which you may have come across, which one your prefer and why?

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Democracy ----- What Democracy?
     Reply #15 - October 23, 2014, 12:34 PM

    Yez. Glad you enjoyed my little joke. I hoped you wouldn't be offended.

    I'd choose to live in a secular democracy, clearly, but things progress. Just because democracy is the best form of government we've come up with so far, doesn't mean there isn't a better way available now. Things progress over time. Democracy would never have worked in 15th century England, for example.

    Democracy needs political parties that compete with each other by arguing about economics rather than political parties based on religious division or ethnic origin. European imperialism has left a legacy of countries that don't work because people are suspicious of each other for one reason or another. I think these issues need to be resolved before democracy can work. I don't believe that democracy can be imposed and expected to work in these circumstances.

    Also, I don't believe democracy can work if people are too poor. In my opinion democracy only works when people are free and freedom doesn't matter that much when you're struggling for daily existence. Democracy exists in rich countries because they are rich rather than they are rich because of democracy. Countries are democratic because people were comfortable enough to cease worrying about their daily existence and were able to turn their thoughts elsewhere.

    What I'm trying to say is we're putting the cart before the horse. We need to find a path to democracy that involves ethical government, followed by increasing affluence. People have to be ready for democracy before you try a democratic government. Otherwise you get Putin.
  • Democracy ----- What Democracy?
     Reply #16 - October 23, 2014, 12:44 PM

    Yez. Glad you enjoyed my little joke. I hoped you wouldn't be offended.


    No dear Rob., I am very thick skinned guy., guys like you have no offending bones in you., so forget me you can not offend anyone ...lol..

    Now rest of your post.........I will NOT travel in your path as you are driving the cart in to a jungle .,
    Quote
    I'd choose to live in a secular democracy, clearly, but things progress. Just because democracy is the best form of government we've come up with so far, doesn't mean there isn't a better way available now. Things progress over time. Democracy would never have worked in 15th century England, for example.

    Democracy needs political parties that compete with each other by arguing about economics rather than political parties based on religious division or ethnic origin. European imperialism has left a legacy of countries that don't work because people are suspicious of each other for one reason or another. I think these issues need to be resolved before democracy can work. I don't believe that democracy can be imposed and expected to work in these circumstances.

    Also, I don't believe democracy can work if people are too poor. In my opinion democracy only works when people are free and freedom doesn't matter that much when you're struggling for daily existence. Democracy exists in rich countries because they are rich rather than they are rich because of democracy. Countries are democratic because people were comfortable enough to cease worrying about their daily existence and were able to turn their thoughts elsewhere.

    What I'm trying to say is we're putting the cart before the horse. We need to find a path to democracy that involves ethical government, followed by increasing affluence. People have to be ready for democracy before you try a democratic government. Otherwise you get Putin.

    to follow you and answer your queries and post ., first you have to answer the question I posed., Then I will read your post and we will discuss further.

    Please realize that,   I am NOT saying STAGNATED democratic elections and governing through democracy is the best way and we can not improve over that.. But we have to discuss pros andcons of that better versions of ruling over the democracy..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Democracy ----- What Democracy?
     Reply #17 - October 23, 2014, 02:32 PM

    I did make an attempt at answering your question. Democracy is the best method of government we have managed to achieve so far. Of course it is.

    I don't believe that democracy can work before a country is ready for it. I think there must be a process of growth towards democracy. I don't think you can give any country a flat-packed democracy package ready to be assembled and used.

    If we accept that premise, then I'd say best option would be some kind of benign dictatorship (or even monarchy) that governed with the will of the people until the conditions to democratise were met. Minimum conditions being a stable country, a reasonable level of affluence, a free press, and political parties.

  • Democracy ----- What Democracy?
     Reply #18 - October 23, 2014, 03:48 PM

    Systems of government:
    Monarchy: Good because it's stable and you tend to know about succession. The ruling family have service instilled and tend to care about their subjects and attempt to rule fot the benefit of all. The person that gets the job has been prepared for it.
    On the other hand, none of the above may be true and things might get bad until the next one comes along. England, on average did pretty well out of it's monarchy. France really didn't.

    Are there any countries with an actual ruling (as opposed to figurehead) monarch right now. I can't think of one (Saudi Arabia?). In any case, I doubt you could create a monarchy out of thin air, plonk it on some country and say: "Right you lot, these guys are in charge in perpetuity" So we'll discount that.

    Dictatorship, Military or otherwise: Could happen anywhere. Essentially some powerful people with lots of weapons stage a coup and take control. Can be good for people in the short term, especially if they take over from someone particularly incompetent. Seems to me to be the only way some countries can be made to work, which really makes me wonder if those boundaries should be re-drawn. There are several examples (Spain, Argentina?) that seem to have done OK emerging from dictatorship into democracy. Can be very, very bloody. Wouldn't like to live under the Burmese government though.

    Communism: I doubt there's much point discussing this. I doubt that there will be any new countries giving this a try so it's a bit redundant. Some of the countries that emerged from Communism seem to be finding it hard to get back on track. Russia got Putin but they did vote for him.

    Theocratic government (Caliphate): Are there any in existence right now? Iran? Can they work in the 21st century? Part of me thinks it might as well be tried because nothing else seems to be working. It would probably be a dictatorship that would rule bloodily for a while, then turn more Liberal, which might work OK since we keep being told how clever the scientists were in the Islamic world under the Caliphate system, how the Caliphate rules with the will of the people, etc. In practice, however, I imagine that if people got more affluent and educated they would kick against it.
    A Caliphate in perpetual conflict with all non Muslims as envisioned by radical Islamists would be interesting to say the least. Do they think that god will disable the weapons belonging to Europe, America, Russia & China?














    0 -.+-

  • Democracy ----- What Democracy?
     Reply #19 - October 23, 2014, 04:41 PM

    Systems of government:
    Monarchy: Good because it's stable and you tend to know about succession. The ruling family have service instilled and tend to care about their subjects and attempt to rule fot the benefit of all. The person that gets the job has been prepared for it.
    On the other hand, none of the above may be true and things might get bad until the next one comes along. England, on average did pretty well out of it's monarchy. France really didn't.

    Are there any countries with an actual ruling (as opposed to figurehead) monarch right now. I can't think of one (Saudi Arabia?). In any case, I doubt you could create a monarchy out of thin air, plonk it on some country and say: "Right you lot, these guys are in charge in perpetuity" So we'll discount that.

    Dictatorship, Military or otherwise: Could happen anywhere. Essentially some powerful people with lots of weapons stage a coup and take control. Can be good for people in the short term, especially if they take over from someone particularly incompetent. Seems to me to be the only way some countries can be made to work, which really makes me wonder if those boundaries should be re-drawn. There are several examples (Spain, Argentina?) that seem to have done OK emerging from dictatorship into democracy. Can be very, very bloody. Wouldn't like to live under the Burmese government though.

    Communism: I doubt there's much point discussing this. I doubt that there will be any new countries giving this a try so it's a bit redundant. Some of the countries that emerged from Communism seem to be finding it hard to get back on track. Russia got Putin but they did vote for him.

    Theocratic government (Caliphate): Are there any in existence right now? Iran? Can they work in the 21st century? Part of me thinks it might as well be tried because nothing else seems to be working. It would probably be a dictatorship that would rule bloodily for a while, then turn more Liberal, which might work OK since we keep being told how clever the scientists were in the Islamic world under the Caliphate system, how the Caliphate rules with the will of the people, etc. In practice, however, I imagine that if people got more affluent and educated they would kick against it.
    A Caliphate in perpetual conflict with all non Muslims as envisioned by radical Islamists would be interesting to say the least. Do they think that god will disable the weapons belonging to Europe, America, Russia & China?














    0 -.+-





    Absolute Monarchies
     Brunei[2]   Sultan Hassanal Bolkiah
     Oman[4]   Sultan Qaboos bin Said al Said
     Saudi Arabia[5]   King Abdullah bin Abdulaziz
     Swaziland[17][18]   King Mswati III
      Vatican City[8]   Pope Francis
     Qatar   Sheikh Tamim bin Hamad Al Thani

    Is there really a difference between an absolute monarchy and a dictatorship?
  • Democracy ----- What Democracy?
     Reply #20 - October 23, 2014, 05:29 PM

    Other than, in a monarchy, there's usually a clear line of descent (they last longer for that reason) and because of the idea of serving the people, monarchies can be more benevolent. No, probably not.
  • Democracy ----- What Democracy?
     Reply #21 - October 23, 2014, 05:33 PM

    I did make an attempt at answering your question. Democracy is the best method of government we have managed to achieve so far. Of course it is.

    well may be you did., but I wanted to make sure., Now I am sure  you  consider "Democracy is the best method of government  we   have managed to achieve"., I guess when you say "WE" you are including every member of CEMB... or every one this earth?
    Quote
    I don't believe that democracy can work before a country is ready for it.  
    I think there must be a process of growth towards democracy. I don't think you can give any country a flat-packed democracy package ready to be assembled and used.

    If we accept that premise, then I'd say best option would be some kind of benign dictatorship (or even monarchy) that governed with the will of the people until the conditions to democratise were met. Minimum conditions being a stable country, a reasonable level of affluence, a free press, and political parties

    Ok.. those hidden words of yours  we will talk  it over later but when you say "I don't believe that democracy can work before a country".. what country or countries do you have in mind.. and how many years in 21st century should people of that country wait  until they you have a government that you like   which as you said is democracy?  

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Democracy ----- What Democracy?
     Reply #22 - October 23, 2014, 06:04 PM

    Quote
    "Democracy is the best method of government  we   have managed to achieve"., I guess when you say "WE" you are including every member of CEMB... or every one this earth?


    Within the context of your question. Everyone on this Earth. Your question makes me wish I'd picked better words though.

    Quote
    what country or countries do you have in mind..


    Russia, as mentioned, went from Communism to badly governed to a(s good as a) dictatorship. The transition should have been managed better.

    Quote
    how many years in 21st century should people of that country wait


    As long as it takes. Work on economy before you try to democratise. I don't believe it works the other way around. Who does it help if you try and then fail?
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratization


  • Democracy ----- What Democracy?
     Reply #23 - October 23, 2014, 06:29 PM

    "Has Democracy had it's time?"

    No.
    "Should we have government by technocrats"

    No.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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