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Theme Changer

 Topic: Islam&Judaism

 (Read 10271 times)
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  • Islam&Judaism
     Reply #30 - March 17, 2015, 11:48 PM

    It would seem then that reform judaism may have reformed due to ignorance of its adherents, which would work as a prerequisite, followed by inoculation of such laws by modern values. So ignorance first, then modern values and lastly reform, so that by the time the community gets the information, there's already a large community enough to push for the interpretation to be changed.


    It is more about modernization, assimilation and adaptation. It does not have an emphasis on fundamentalism, literalism and rituals that Orthodox has. I doubt it's rabbi's nor population are ignorant but just accept the fact the modern world is not the world of antiquity. I would say modern values of the host society has the greatest impact as reform was based in the UK and USA while Orthodox is closer to the ME and Eastern Europe. The greater focus the host society has on isolating differences the more fundamental and orthodox a group becomes. This trend has more extensive history in the East than it does in the UK and USA.

  • Islam&Judaism
     Reply #31 - March 17, 2015, 11:49 PM

    One thing I havent figured out is if conservative Rabbis believe in the law in theory, but want to avoid its application on certain things.


    Usually...it's kind of like "Yeah, this book is inspired by God. Well, the parts I like anyway. And those are the only parts I know and/or acknowledge, so this whole book is inspired by God!"

    So like here's an example.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o674uo-NlUE

    Rabbi Steinlauf's a conservative, the guy interviewing him either is orthodox or was raised orthodox. They're discussing the garments of the priests, and Steinlauf is talking about how the garments are lush, regal, etc., and at about 2 1/2 minutes in the video, the interviewer points out that that only applies to the garments of the High Priest, and the other priests' garments are just a plain white linen robe (although whoever wrote that obviously wasn't in touch with the actual practical parts of the same story; the practical parts have these guys killing, gutting, slicing, and burning thousands of animals a day, how you're expected to keep a robe white in those conditions is beyond me  whistling2). Steinlauf is thrown off guard, because that kind of throws off the whole topic he had prepared.

    Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for I have a sonic screwdriver, a tricorder, and a Type 2 phaser.
  • Islam&Judaism
     Reply #32 - March 18, 2015, 12:07 AM

    galfromusa
    Are you talking about cognitive dissonance and/or compartmentalization? Im wondering what a conservative rabbi is thinking when dealing with troublesome parts of the scriptures as it is with the penal code. Does he/she reject it based on a legal argument or does he/she avoid it by legal tricks and loopholes?
  • Islam&Judaism
     Reply #33 - March 18, 2015, 12:14 AM

    galfromusa
    Are you talking about cognitive dissonance or compartmentalization? Im wondering what a conservative rabbi is thinking when dealing with troublesome parts of the scriptures as it is with the penal code. Does he/she reject it based on a legal argument or does he/she avoid it by legal tricks and loopholes?


    That depends. During the early days of the movement, there was definitely a lot more cognitive dissonance and stuff. Now that several generations have come and gone, each one ignoring more than the last, there are people who have no idea what the original texts say, and just know what other people have said about them. Sure, they can "read" Hebrew, in the sense that they know what sounds the letters make, but they probably don't know what half of the words mean. My great grandparents knew the intricate rules of the sabbath, and felt bad about not keeping them; my grandparents didn't know those rules, but they knew the intricate rules of keeping kosher, and kept them for a while, but by the time they had kids they'd stopped; so their kids didn't know the rules of keeping kosher OR of keeping the sabbath. And they weren't in any way alone in that situation.

    Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for I have a sonic screwdriver, a tricorder, and a Type 2 phaser.
  • Islam&Judaism
     Reply #34 - March 18, 2015, 12:45 AM

    bogart   
    Obviously, being exposed to modernization affected jews(not as much among what became the orthodox) living in the west, which caused the rise of reform judaism. But what Im wondering is if it starts with cognitive dissonance combined with ignorance, rather than deliberately and consciously rejecting a 2000-3000 year old tradition.
  • Islam&Judaism
     Reply #35 - March 18, 2015, 01:07 AM

    galfromusa
    Were you orthodox,conservative or reform?
  • Islam&Judaism
     Reply #36 - March 18, 2015, 02:02 AM

    galfromusa
    Were you orthodox,conservative or reform?


    My great grandparents and grandparents were conservatives, my parents grew up and developed mental illnesses and became insane cultists, I grew up and realized my parents were out of their fucking minds, so I became orthodox.

    Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for I have a sonic screwdriver, a tricorder, and a Type 2 phaser.
  • Islam&Judaism
     Reply #37 - March 18, 2015, 05:46 AM

    bogart   
    Obviously, being exposed to modernization affected jews(not as much among what became the orthodox) living in the west, which caused the rise of reform judaism. But what Im wondering is if it starts with cognitive dissonance combined with ignorance, rather than deliberately and consciously rejecting a 2000-3000 year old tradition.



    I would say cognitive dissonance combined with arguments to get around questionable and immoral acts in the religion. These type of arguments are no different than ones from Islam or Christianity. Be it divine command theory or relativism. I think it is deliberate and a conscious effort rather than ignorance. God's morals become aligned with the believers and past acts become exceptions to the rule. Social constructs also seem to have a lesser emphasis depending on the host.
  • Islam&Judaism
     Reply #38 - March 20, 2015, 12:04 AM

    The thing is that I think that reform within Islam, in the direction of liberalism, has gone on in the West since the 90s, in some respect earlier. I also think that this reform in interpretation only happens to the degree that the muslim community is able to convince itself that its a reasonable interpretation. The problem with this is that it makes such changes asymmetrical, its almost as if they're doing one thing at a time.
  • Islam&Judaism
     Reply #39 - April 23, 2015, 04:16 PM

    Ban on music and singing in ancient judaism
    Quote
    According to the Mishna, the regular Temple orchestra consisted of twelve instruments, and the choir of twelve male singers.

    A number of additional instruments were known to the ancient Hebrews, though they were not included in the regular orchestra of the Temple: the uggav (small flute), the abbuv (a reed flute or oboe-like instrument).

    After the destruction of the Temple and the subsequent diaspora of the Jewish people, there was a feeling of great loss among the people. At the time, a consensus developed that all music and singing would be banned; this was codified as a rule by some early Jewish rabbinic authorities. However, the ban on singing and music, although not formally lifted by any council, soon became understood as only a ban outside of religious services. Within the synagogue the custom of singing soon re-emerged. In later years, the practice became to allow singing for feasts celebrating religious life-cycle events such as weddings, and over time the formal ban against singing and performing music lost its force altogether.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_religious_Jewish_music#Origin_of_Jewish_music_in_the_Temple
  • Islam&Judaism
     Reply #40 - April 23, 2015, 05:50 PM

    What laws are there that only seem to be found in Islam. The music ban seem to have been such a case, but it seems now probable that the law has its origin in some form of judaism in the ancient world.
  • Islam&Judaism
     Reply #41 - April 23, 2015, 06:40 PM



    In terms of "music might give you wood and kill sperm", there's still a ban on listening to women sing, unless there's more than two of them.

    Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for I have a sonic screwdriver, a tricorder, and a Type 2 phaser.
  • Islam&Judaism
     Reply #42 - April 23, 2015, 06:56 PM

     Roll Eyes

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Islam&Judaism
     Reply #43 - April 23, 2015, 09:14 PM

    Unless there's more than two    Huh?
  • Islam&Judaism
     Reply #44 - April 23, 2015, 11:39 PM

    Unless there's more than two    Huh?


    Yep. Apparently listening to one or two women sing is boner inducing, but listening to 3 or more women sing kills your boner. Why? No fucking clue. But hey, religious law seldom makes sense.

    Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for I have a sonic screwdriver, a tricorder, and a Type 2 phaser.
  • Islam&Judaism
     Reply #45 - April 24, 2015, 02:17 AM

    What about guys putting their women folks ears through the torture of nasheeds, what does it do to women.
  • Islam&Judaism
     Reply #46 - April 24, 2015, 03:16 AM

    What about guys putting their women folks ears through the torture of nasheeds, what does it do to women.


    Girl boners don't kill sperm.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUspLVStPbk

    Basically, since women don't lose their eggs because of anything they do, they lose them on a regular schedule regardless of any actions they take, lesbianism and female masturbation don't upset God (or the dudes who wrote those rules) that much.

    Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for I have a sonic screwdriver, a tricorder, and a Type 2 phaser.
  • Islam&Judaism
     Reply #47 - April 27, 2015, 10:24 AM

    galfromusa
    Have you heard about the story of David hiding from Sauls men in a cave in jewish literature?David was saved by a spider web on the entrance of the cave.Well,that story is in islamic traditions about....Muhammad being saved by a spider web in a cave.
  • Islam&Judaism
     Reply #48 - April 27, 2015, 06:15 PM

    Im beginning to wonder if there's a list of all the stories about Muhammad that was taken from pre islamic sources or how many stories that were attributed to Muhammad
  • Islam&Judaism
     Reply #49 - April 27, 2015, 07:11 PM

    galfromusa
    Have you heard about the story of David hiding from Sauls men in a cave in jewish literature?David was saved by a spider web on the entrance of the cave.Well,that story is in islamic traditions about....Muhammad being saved by a spider web in a cave.


    I know that David did hide in caves several times from Saul; but I don't remember one with spiders. I'll look it up. Going to the doctor's office in a minute so I can't look it up right now, but I will when I get home. Just remind me.

    Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for I have a sonic screwdriver, a tricorder, and a Type 2 phaser.
  • Islam&Judaism
     Reply #50 - April 28, 2015, 11:53 AM

    Im beginning to wonder if there's a list of all the stories about Muhammad that was taken from pre islamic sources or how many stories that were attributed to Muhammad

       there is little doubt on that. In fact  90% of stories  that i see  in Quran were  taken either from OT or NT., Now stories you see  in hadith have different origins and most of them were made up after alleged death of Muhammad of Quran  who was an invented character of Quran writers..

    Quote
    The Spider that Saved David

    http://www.chabad.org/kids/article_cdo/aid/470215/jewish/The-Spider-that-Saved-David.htm

    When King David was still a boy watching over his father's sheep, he often came upon spiders' webs strung across tree branches and shining in the sun. David thought the spiders were wonderful to weave such webs, but he could see no use for them.  David decided to ask God about it. "Why, O Creator of the world, did you make spiders? You can't even wear their webs as clothing!"

    God answered David, "A day will come when you will need the work of this creature. Then you will thank me."
    David grew up and became a courageous warrior. He defeated the giant Goliath and many enemies of the people of Israel. He married King Saul's daughter and the people adored him as the greatest man in the land.

    King Saul was jealous and afraid of David and sent his soldiers to kill him. David ran away to the wilderness. He hoped King Saul's fit of anger would pass and David would be safe to return. But King Saul's men kept chasing him. At last, the soldiers were very close. David ran into a cave to hide. He heard the footsteps of the men and knew that they would soon find him. David was so afraid, his bones shook and hurt.

    But then David saw a big spider at the front of the cave. Very quickly, it was spinning a web all the way across the opening. Just before the soldiers came up to the cave, the spider finished the web. As the men started to enter the cave, they ran into the web. "Look," they said, "This web is unbroken. If David were here, he'd have torn the web to pieces. He must be hiding somewhere else. Let's go!"

    So because of the spider, David's life was saved. David understood that God was wise and thanked God for creating all the creatures, including the spiders.


    Quote
    The Prophet Muhammad & the Spider –The Story Of Hijrah

    http://www.onislam.net/english/family/moms-and-dads/raising-positive-children/460085-the-prophet-a-the-spider-lessons-for-children.html

    The children gather around, waiting for the story to unravel. A story about a man running away – an escape plan – he is being hunted down – but there is a resolve – a new place – a peaceful place – called Madinah.

    Their Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) was accompanied by his best friend started their journey in the depths of the night. They managed to leave Makkah, despite being hunted down. They hid in a cave. It was late at night and they were in danger. Alhamdulillah, Allah is the Most Merciful.

    Even while in the cave, they were nearly caught by the Quraysh…their assassins who were hot on their heels. Then there was a spider. It spun a web to protect Prophet Muhammad and Abu Bakr Siddique. The Quraysh people came and they saw a spider’s web worth days and days of work. So there was no doubt that the two men could have hidden in the cave without such a large spider web in front of it.

    What? A spider saved the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him)?

    Yes, a spider saved Prophet Muhammad and Abu Bakr because Allah asked it to do so.

    That’s nice of the spider, they chime. Allah asked the spider to protect Prophet and Abu Bakr!

    I was in the middle of the story, when the excitement of the spider ensued, then all of a sudden, a tiny spider scaled down from the ceiling and landed on our book. It was right smack in the middle of the story of the spider web covering the cave opening where Prophet Muhammad (SAW) and Abu Bakr (RA) remained silent in hiding.

    “A spider! A spider! The spider heard us talking about her!”

    My kids were giggling in excitement while the creature scaled down just above our hands, and I have to admit I was quite amazed at how Allah intended to land a spider on our Seerah book just as we were reading about the Hijrah.

    This was some time last year. My children were younger, louder. But since then, every time they spot a spider, they start talking about the spider that protected Prophet Muhammad while he was hiding in the cave.

    The moral of the Story of the Spider

    The story of the Spider is the ultimate ear candy for little ones, especially younger children. Children are completely besotted with animals, and the story of the spider is probably one of the most fascinating “animal stories” in the history of the Islamic timeline.

    Knowing that Allah has such a power to command animals to behave at His Will is also an amazing realization in itself.

    Humans have always co-existed with animals since the beginning of time, but interaction between the two has not always been positive. Telling children about the spider and how it wove a web to protect Prophet Muhammad from persecution, is one way to remind them to respect animals no matter what.

    Of course, it would be wise to remind of the dangers of getting close to some species of spider, but besides that, the Arachnid is a fascinating study on its own.  


    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Islam&Judaism
     Reply #51 - April 28, 2015, 04:04 PM

    Almost all of what is known about Muhammad is in the hadith.What about the stories of Muhammad in Mecca or in Medina, famous battles, etc?Since the story of Muhammad hiding in the cave, saved by spiderweb, seems to be taken from jewish traditions, what else is taken from other sources?
  • Islam&Judaism
     Reply #52 - April 28, 2015, 04:15 PM

    Almost all of what is known about Muhammad is in the hadith.

    so..what??    i don't care. ..  I say to all people ..

    "Oh my people  
    hadith is created by idiots writing silly stories  in prophet's  name  
    in fact  they corrupted some of  the Quran
    So through all that is there in hadith
    and the Quran that is connected to hadith in to a nearest  trash bin..
    After that read Quran again and read it carefully
    with open heart and open mind  "
     

    ........yeezevee.........
    ..


    Quote
    What about the stories of Muhammad in Mecca or in Medina, famous battles, etc?..............

     
    what about it?  where are they?

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Islam&Judaism
     Reply #53 - April 28, 2015, 04:45 PM

    I mean were do the stories come from?
  • Islam&Judaism
     Reply #54 - April 28, 2015, 05:33 PM

    Almost all of what is known about Muhammad is in the hadith.What about the stories of Muhammad in Mecca or in Medina, famous battles, etc?Since the story of Muhammad hiding in the cave, saved by spiderweb, seems to be taken from jewish traditions, what else is taken from other sources?

    There's too much here to really quote but see this dissertation by Jack Tannous, page 494 onwards:

    http://users.clas.ufl.edu/sterk/Mission&Conversion/Tannous%20Syria%20between%20Byzantium%20and%20Islam.pdf
  • Islam&Judaism
     Reply #55 - May 11, 2015, 08:01 AM

    I missed to pointing out something in my post about the music ban in judaism in ancient times and the exception on weddings
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_religious_Jewish_music#Origin_of_Jewish_music_in_the_Temple
    Quote
    According to the Mishna, the regular Temple orchestra consisted of twelve instruments, and the choir of twelve male singers.

    A number of additional instruments were known to the ancient Hebrews, though they were not included in the regular orchestra of the Temple: the uggav (small flute), the abbuv (a reed flute or oboe-like instrument).

    After the destruction of the Temple and the subsequent diaspora of the Jewish people, there was a feeling of great loss among the people. At the time, a consensus developed that all music and singing would be banned; this was codified as a rule by some early Jewish rabbinic authorities. However, the ban on singing and music, although not formally lifted by any council, soon became understood as only a ban outside of religious services. Within the synagogue the custom of singing soon re-emerged. In later years, the practice became to allow singing for feasts celebrating religious life-cycle events such as weddings, and over time the formal ban against singing and performing music lost its force altogether.

    The view that was held by the four schools of Sunni Islam was that music(with only certain type of tambourine) was permissible for weddings,though in judaism it may have been referring to different musical instruments than the one that they allowed.While historically there was a challenge,a strong majority(among islamic scholars) may have held this view until recently, and that may very well have changed/changing just until recently,which maybe similar to what happened in judaism.
  • Islam&Judaism
     Reply #56 - May 11, 2015, 08:40 AM

    The thing is that I think that reform within Islam, in the direction of liberalism, has gone on in the West since the 90s, in some respect earlier. I also think that this reform in interpretation only happens to the degree that the muslim community is able to convince itself that its a reasonable interpretation. The problem with this is that it makes such changes asymmetrical, its almost as if they're doing one thing at a time.


    actual Islam is much more flexible (in theory),  and it is has all the ingredient for reformation,  in simple terms, Islam is based on Quran (allegedly God words !!!! )  ,Hadiths ( allegedly Muhammed saying) and Sira (Muhammed biography),  and all previous Muslim exegesis.   

    Hadiths and Sira and the rest can be easily rejected based on theological ground, or simply because the issue of authenticity.  ( most of the hadith is a fabrication, and many scholars have prove that ).

    now the Quran is such a complex and inconsistant book, that you can easily come up with a very modern interpretations,  as an example if you fellow the Quran alone, Jews and Christians are Muslim as they believe in one God and the day of Judgement.
    I think the issue is not the text itself, but for inexplicable reasons, Many Muslim have a resistance to changes, and are happy with the status Quo
  • Islam&Judaism
     Reply #57 - May 11, 2015, 10:04 AM

    ^I've pointed it out before, the real obstacle to reform is in the hadith, once the hadiths are not in use, the obstacles become far fewer and interpretation much more flexible.Its ironic, because even hadiths in collections of hadiths considered most authentic in Sunni Islam, Bukhari, was considered inauthentic 1200 years later by salafi muhhadith such as Albani.Most of Islamic law is in the hadith: stoning,death for apostasy and insulting the prophet etc.
  • Islam&Judaism
     Reply #58 - October 07, 2016, 02:16 AM

    well on the way let us watch Nabeel Qureshi

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H3lHueRXvh0

    I just heard that Nabeel was diagnosed with cancer. I hope he will be alright.

    "Life is not a matter of holding good cards, but of playing a poor hand well."
    - Robert Louis Stevenson
  • Islam&Judaism
     Reply #59 - October 07, 2016, 02:37 AM

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_wwFIm6xGk

    "Life is not a matter of holding good cards, but of playing a poor hand well."
    - Robert Louis Stevenson
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