Indian witch trials

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- mubs_352
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Indian witch trials
Reply #90 - July 29, 2014, 03:34 PM

Im just gonna pick one of your points

"No unnecessarily cruel punishments, no torture"

How do you know what 'level' of cruel is ok?

The above is not really airtight. You might aswell remove everything and just say "Be nice people"

By the way, the UN does not agree that such stoning cases are 'torture'
Torture, according to the 1984 United Nations Convention Against Torture
"It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in, or incidental to, lawful sanctions"

Let me remind you that the stoning law is in effect in many countres that have good relations with the UK.

I honestly dont think you've succeeded in finding the solution for the below

Quote from: mubs_352 on July 28, 2014, 10:42 PM
Or rather how you determine whats ok to forceably change and whats not?

But everyone can decide for themselves what they make of your efforts.
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Reply #91 - July 29, 2014, 03:47 PM

Different people are going to think different things are cruel. I know parents who think putting their kids in timeout is cruel. Whatever. There is gray area, but that gray area doesn't begin until well past the point of known torture methods that were designed to be unbearable and frighteningly cruel.

Surely even you, mubs, can understand why, if the aim of a punishment is execution, stoning is an excessively cruel method with which to do it. Like many ancient punishments, it was designed to be that way. To inflict enormous physical pain in addition to the execution. To be torture and execution rolled up into one. Did you really need that explained to you? I think not.

Quote
By the way, the UN does not agree that such stoning cases are 'torture'
Torture, according to the 1984 United Nations Convention Against Torture
"It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in, or incidental to, lawful sanctions"

Let me remind you that the stoning law is in effect in many countres that have good relations with the UK.

Tried a couple times before to shut this down. I'm not interested in you discussing the United Nations' history and criticisms with me. I don't even care. The reason I brought their document into this was that I had already spent too much time on you, and I was hoping for a way to cut corners by referring you to a pretty decent list of human rights instead of just writing up my own. Apparently I should have just paraphrased the key points from the start, because you've demonstrated that you're very much incapable of staying on subject, and bringing the United Nations into it gives you more room to squirm around in and more places to flee to instead of just answering the question at hand.

So please, take off your political science hat and go back up in the ivory tower so we can finally get to the bottom of whether or not you think that it is better that women in India and similar areas should be murdered for witchcraft because the alternative (protecting them) is too damaging to the culture and therefore not worth it.
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Reply #92 - July 29, 2014, 03:51 PM

I dont necessarily believe individual life is the greatest thing. I wouldnt agree that it is always worth saving ahead of anything and everything else. A cultural value you might destroy today to save a few lives may have itself saved many more later on.
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Reply #93 - July 29, 2014, 03:54 PM

You ninja edited that "Yes" out of there. Why? Wanted to disguise your approval of the killing of these women a little more?
- mubs_352
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Reply #94 - July 29, 2014, 03:56 PM

I started the sentence differently and only realised later on it didnt make sense.
- lua
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Reply #95 - July 29, 2014, 04:06 PM

You kept the exact same sentence, but started it with a "Yes."

So now that you've finally established (after a great deal of embarrassing waffling) that you don't really care what happens to individual people and that you'd rather see these women lynched than the element of witchcraft altered in their culture, I'm afraid, my friend, that we have nothing more to say to each other.

Moreover, I'm not interested in such a person's opinion on anything else, so I'm going to brush off the ignore button for the first time since I've gotten here and test it out on you. You're the guy I've been saving my inaugural ignore for. You took so long to get here!

On a side note, you're probably going to get banned at some point if you keep up your disgusting habit of justifying murder and all other atrocities. I might take you off ignore at that time to have a good chuckle at your departing words.

Later, mubs.
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Reply #96 - July 29, 2014, 04:08 PM

There is a difference between approval and neutrality. And we're not talking about the "killing of these women" specifically but rather of a larger culture that could affect millions, the effect of tampering with we really dont know or understand in advance.
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Reply #97 - July 29, 2014, 04:08 PM

Follow up: I shouldn't have waited that long to ignore somebody. This is super cute:

Resume viewing You really do not want to see this post. This person drives you crazy.

Try it on me, mubs. It's adorable.
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Reply #98 - July 29, 2014, 04:18 PM

Quote from: mubs_352 on July 29, 2014, 04:08 PM
There is a difference between approval and neutrality. And we're not talking about the "killing of these women" specifically but rather of a larger culture that could affect millions, the effect of tampering with we really dont know or understand in advance.

Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. - Terry Pratchett
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Reply #99 - July 29, 2014, 05:24 PM

Lua gets my POTM vote.

"Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
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Reply #100 - July 29, 2014, 05:27 PM

I think you're all being trolled

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
God is Love.
Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.
- mubs_352
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Reply #101 - July 29, 2014, 05:38 PM

Billy, im no troll.

Allat, you're global admin and you agree with Lua posts.

So, having read this thread, do you agree with the below...

Quote from: lua on July 29, 2014, 04:06 PM
On a side note, you're probably going to get banned at some point if you keep up your disgusting habit of justifying murder and all other atrocities. I might take you off ignore at that time to have a good chuckle at your departing words.

If so, I prefer to get banned now rather than spending time on board only to get banned later for the same views.
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Reply #102 - July 29, 2014, 05:39 PM

Quote from: billy on July 29, 2014, 05:27 PM
I think you're all being trolled

That would be a welcome relief, I'd like not to think he is that gross.

Quote from: allat on July 29, 2014, 05:24 PM
Lua gets my POTM vote.

Aw.
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Reply #103 - July 29, 2014, 06:02 PM

Quote from: mubs_352 on July 29, 2014, 05:38 PM
Billy, im no troll.

Allat, you're global admin and you agree with Lua posts.

So, having read this thread, do you agree with the below...

If so, I prefer to get banned now rather than spending time on board only to get banned later for the same views.

You're not getting banned yet, unless you want to go on a self-ban.

Yes I'm global admin, but I'm not a robot. I am capable of having an opinion, and in this scenario, it would seem that lua has really destroyed every single one of your arguments with tons more patience than I could muster.

Since you didn't bother to summarise your own arguments like I'd requested, I have to go by what I can surmise and what others like Jedi have summarised about your arguments.

Going by what I can read, it seems like you are trying to form an extreme Libertarian view that is full of your own privilege - you are equating being an actual slave to paying taxes to your UK government to support social services. You are equating women being murdered under the accusation of being 'witches' with.... I don't even know what? Basically, you are always siding with the oppressor, and yet you think you are the victim of other people's oppression. Maybe you have never faced actual physical harm or oppression or violence, because you seem to be so much in your head, you can't imagine or empathize with anyone who is living with or being killed by abuse and violence.

You are talking to other human beings here. Not robots. You can only push abstract ideas that are divorced from all reality for so long before someone will call you on it. If you wanted to just have a debate about the underlying assumptions of say, human rights, you could have done so without resorting to what is beginning to look more and more like a pro-honour-killing, pro-slavery stance.

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Reply #104 - July 29, 2014, 06:10 PM

I say ban him. Just so I can play this song.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6seKIOHbs4E

Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. - Terry Pratchett
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Reply #105 - July 29, 2014, 06:12 PM

^
- Jedi
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Reply #106 - July 29, 2014, 06:35 PM

Quote from: mubs_352 on July 29, 2014, 04:08 PM
There is a difference between approval and neutrality. And we're not talking about the "killing of these women" specifically but rather of a larger culture that could affect millions, the effect of tampering with we really dont know or understand in advance.

What rubbish! What nonsense! Exactly what benefit will there be to humanity by keeping a cultural practise that is used to discriminate and mutilate a vital section of the population whilst allowing the perpetrators of such crimes to go unpunished? This is a maladaptive cultural practise, that is to say it does not allow society/human person to flourish. I can't believe I'm having this conversation. There are some cultural practices that MUST be relegated to the history books. Amongst them:

FGM
Forced marriages
Stoning for adultery
Child brides

And dare I say it, accusing women of witchcraft (for a whole host of reasons) and their eventual mutilation at the hands of a frenzied mob.

Please do not ban mubs. I like the entertainment and the intellectual reinforcement he provides. Sometimes we need bad examples so that we can reflect on what it truly means to be 'good'.

Thank you mubs for demonstrating just how intellectualy vacuous your position is and thanks to all, esp. lua, for their contributions.

R.I.P Mubs, but please let your zombie return for more pseudo-philosophy. I liked the way you jumped from a Marxist perspective to a all-or-nothing libertarian approach. "Liked" as in laughed all the way through. But please don't feel too bad.

Learn, learn, learn.

One day you shall become enlightened and earn your horn.

No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
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Reply #107 - July 29, 2014, 06:50 PM

Quote from: allat on July 29, 2014, 06:02 PM
Yes I'm global admin, but I'm not a robot. I am capable of having an opinion, and in this scenario, it would seem that lua has really destroyed every single one of your arguments with tons more patience than I could muster.

If you had actually read the thread you would know she failed to provide a proper definition of circumstances under which we should intervene. She then got me to repeat my initial stance and then decided to ignore me because of it. I am not sure you understand the principles of reasoned discussion.

In addition, she also deliberately misrepresented the forum rules in order to get an EMOTIONAL advantage over me when reason failed her arguments.

Her perspective and yours are based on brainwashing and nothing less from Western media and ideaology. Consider, how few people in India and Pakistan protest against honour killings, yet you make that as an example and we hear of it in the Media all the time. I am Indian and have many Pakistani friends, honour killings is something I've never heard of happening other than in the Media. You should take the Media less seriously, dont you think there is an agenda, deliberate or not? And how many slaves DO YOU KNOW (telling me I havent experienced oppression). All your knowledge of slavery comes from Hollywood movies and school text books that are obviously ideaologically driven.

You are pro-intervention based on what you see and hear on the Media, coupled with the sense of Morality instilled in you by the culture you so trust and admire (which itself rose to power using those same practices it is now so anti-thetical to).

You get upset and emotional from TV clips THAT ARE OBVIOUSLY DESIGNED TO DO JUST THAT and then tell me I am living in my head and feel no empathy!!!

I tried hard to represent my views and fairly as I can, even having suffered insults from members, but for an admin to leave such a biased reply is rather disappointing.
- yeezevee
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Reply #108 - July 29, 2014, 07:13 PM

Quote from: mubs_352 on July 29, 2014, 06:50 PM
EMOTIONAL.......

........brainwashing and nothing less from Western media and ideaology....

Hmm Western media and ideology.. mubs_352., let me give you the news.. very few in this forum are born in west.. So you are from India?? Great country great culture., wonderful people.. but they don't want give me Visa .. anyways Let us watch Eastern media.. Your Indian Media.,

Eastern media You tube-1
Eastern media You tube-2
Eastern media You tube-3

Quote
....Consider, how few people in India and Pakistan protest against honour killings,...........

why? why people don't protest against such horrible things? well the reason could be CULTURE... great culture.. coupled to religions..

or people are busy .. making ends meet.. watching cricket, watching bolly HOODS., and politicians making money through the support of religious mambo jumbo and religious rogues..
Quote
..You are pro-intervention based on what you see and hear on the Media, coupled with the sense of ~~Morality instilled in you by the culture you so trust and admire...~~..............

So you don't want pro-intervention? what is the point of doing this intervention after some one gets hacked to death? You should try pro intervention in your home, in your town, in your city and in your country.. Try that, it will give you better results.. Please realize this moral relativity doesn't work when women are getting murdered
Quote
..You get upset and emotional from TV clips THAT ARE OBVIOUSLY DESIGNED TO DO JUST THAT and then tell me I am living in my head and feel no empathy! WTF!

what the fuck? what fuck are you talking? .. now you are getting emotional., why mubs_352?

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
- lua
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Reply #109 - July 29, 2014, 07:15 PM

For the record, I didn't mean to suggest mubs should be banned, but seeing as he's been active for--what--a few days? And he's already in two different threads justifying lynching mobs, it's my honest suspicion that he eventually will be if he keeps going at the rate he is now.

In light of his views that anything horrible is permissible if it is the cultural norm, whoever wants to keep him here might want to inform him of the zero tolerance policy they have for justifying sexual abuses before that comes out on its own.
- mubs_352
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Reply #110 - July 29, 2014, 07:16 PM

I'm not emotional, I was trying to emphasis the point. Will edit it out...
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Reply #111 - July 29, 2014, 07:18 PM

Quote from: mubs_352 on July 29, 2014, 06:50 PM
Her perspective and yours are based on brainwashing and nothing less from Western media and ideaology. Consider, how few people in India and Pakistan protest against honour killings, yet you make that as an example and we hear of it in the Media all the time. I am Indian and have many Pakistani friends, honour killings is something I've never heard of happening other than in the Media. You should take the Media less seriously, dont you think there is an agenda, deliberate or not? And how many slaves DO YOU KNOW (telling me I havent experienced oppression). All your knowledge of slavery comes from Hollywood movies and school text books that are obviously ideaologically driven.

Yes mubs, yes, SLAVERY and HONOUR KILLINGS are an Western imperialist invention to get one over on the brown skins. Tosser.

No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
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Reply #112 - July 29, 2014, 07:19 PM

Quote from: mubs_352 on July 29, 2014, 07:16 PM
I'm not emotional, I was trying to emphasis the point. Will edit it out...

No.. no mubs_352., You don't need to edit anything.. Fuck is all right.. not a big deal.. keep it keep it.. keep going., So where from in India??

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Reply #113 - July 29, 2014, 07:21 PM

Slavery (and Racism) were both taken to new heights buy Western Culture when it suited their needs. What does that say about the culture you so trust.
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Reply #114 - July 29, 2014, 07:22 PM

What? You think we should take honour killings less seriously? You know that I can be a victim of such thinking??
How can that not be serious?
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Reply #115 - July 29, 2014, 07:27 PM

So can I and anyone in my family
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Reply #116 - July 29, 2014, 07:27 PM

mubs_352, in general what are you arguing about?
That societies should not change because of CULTURE?
If so, that is ridiculous.

Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. - Terry Pratchett
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Reply #117 - July 29, 2014, 07:29 PM

Quote
I am Indian and have many Pakistani friends, honour killings is something I've never heard of happening other than in the Media.

Your not having heard, does not exclude the fact that it happens more often than the media shows us.
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Reply #118 - July 29, 2014, 07:31 PM

Quote from: mubs_352 on July 29, 2014, 07:21 PM
Slavery (and Racism) were both taken to new heights buy Western Culture ~~when it suited their needs.~~

yes.. they did that., Not because it suited for them but their religion , religious politics allowed it.

Quote
What does that say about the culture you so trust.,

It says culture is NOT stagnant but transformed.. And why do you say that people here trust that culture? whatever culture it may be.,

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Reply #119 - July 29, 2014, 07:33 PM

Quote from: mubs_352 on July 29, 2014, 07:21 PM
Slavery (and Racism) were both taken to new heights buy Western Culture when it suited their needs. What does that say about the culture you so trust.

Its not a competition. Those things are equally wrong whatever culture they happen in.

"Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny." - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
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