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 Topic: Indian witch trials

 (Read 11731 times)
  • Previous page 1 2 34 5 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Indian witch trials
     Reply #60 - July 29, 2014, 12:32 AM

    This is probably worth a read regarding human rights

    http://www.worldpolicy.org/tharoor.html
  • Indian witch trials
     Reply #61 - July 29, 2014, 12:42 AM

    Quote
    And at the risk of sounding frivolous, when you stop a man in traditional dress from beating his wife, are you upholding her human rights or violating his?


    Truly profound stuff. Enough with the distractions. I gave you ~20 very simple sentences that take about a minute or less to read that answered your question. And your response?
  • Indian witch trials
     Reply #62 - July 29, 2014, 12:45 AM

    Mubs, what exactly is your argument?

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Indian witch trials
     Reply #63 - July 29, 2014, 01:05 AM

    You can see my argument in the previous pages. Currently I need to show Lua why it doesn't make sense for us to intervene on the basis of the human rights charter. This will have to wait though.
  • Indian witch trials
     Reply #64 - July 29, 2014, 01:09 AM

    But guys, though I agree it seems pretty messed up, isn't it upto them to live according to the culture and religion that they choose? These 'witch trials' are clearly part of a larger culture, would you choose that they stop following that and live according to what you think is right?

    In that first post, all I can see are a couple of westerners trying to show how their culture is so superior to 'the other' by showing the most extreme cases. Just another type of cultural imperialism.

    This is no different to how Christians and Muslims forced so many people to convert, because they too believed they were right.


    " I will give this one proof among many from which it may be inferred that all men hold this belief about their customs. When Darius was king, he summoned the Greeks who were with him and asked them for what price they would eat their fathers' dead bodies. They answered that they wouldn’t do it for any amount of money.  Then Darius summoned those Indians who are called Callatiae, who eat their parents, and asked them (the Greeks being present and understanding through interpreters what was said) what would make them willing to burn their fathers at death. The Indians cried aloud, that he should not speak of so horrible an act. So firmly rooted are these beliefs; and it is, I think, rightly said in Pindar's poem that custom is king of all."

    Herodotus of Halicarnassus (a Greek polis in Asia Minor), excerpts from The Histories (ca. 430 BC)



    So if a group of people decide they want to live in a certain way that has no effect on you, you would still consider it acceptable to impose you standards on them if you coult, just because of something you saw thousands of miles away on TV?


    This reads like a parody. Sadly, I don't think it is.  Just took a break from reading because I want to inform you that your worldview and justifications for human rights violations are sickening. I will now make a tea and scroll through the rest of the thread. Anticipating a weird ride. Afro

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Indian witch trials
     Reply #65 - July 29, 2014, 01:17 AM

    I can already see where you're going with this, and seeing as I'm not being paid the rates of your professors to read your Philosophy 101 essay on objective morality or your "but it's really difficult to do it" non-argument, I'm not interested. Let me just actually bring those 1-20 articles here so you can tell me which ones a person would not deserve if the culture they belong to decides to oppress them, which is the point of the discussion.

    Abridged in the interest of brevity. You want to see all of it, you know where to find it:

    Quote
    All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.

    Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status [...]

    Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person.

    No one shall be held in slavery or servitude; slavery and the slave trade shall be prohibited in all their forms.

    No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.

    Everyone has the right to recognition everywhere as a person before the law.

    All are equal before the law and are entitled without any discrimination to equal protection of the law.

    Everyone has the right to an effective remedy by the competent national tribunals for acts violating the fundamental rights granted him by the constitution or by law.

    No one shall be subjected to arbitrary arrest, detention or exile.

    Everyone is entitled in full equality to a fair and public hearing by an independent and impartial tribunal, in the determination of his rights and obligations and of any criminal charge against him.

    (1) Everyone charged with a penal offence has the right to be presumed innocent until proved guilty according to law in a public trial at which he has had all the guarantees necessary for his defense.

    No one shall be subjected to arbitrary interference with his privacy, family, home or correspondence, nor to attacks upon his honour and reputation.

    (2) Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country.

    (1) Everyone has the right to seek and to enjoy in other countries asylum from persecution.

    (1) Everyone has the right to a nationality.

    (1) Men and women of full age, without any limitation due to race, nationality or religion, have the right to marry and to found a family. They are entitled to equal rights as to marriage, during marriage and at its dissolution. (2) Marriage shall be entered into only with the free and full consent of the intending spouses.

    (1) Everyone has the right to own property alone as well as in association with others. (2) No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his property.

    Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief [...]

    Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression;

    (1) Everyone has the right to freedom of peaceful assembly and association.



    So which ones do you think just aren't that important?
  • Indian witch trials
     Reply #66 - July 29, 2014, 01:19 AM

    Anticipating a weird ride. Afro


    Weird isn't the word. The muslim atheism thread was a weird ride. This is just a gross one. Grin
  • Indian witch trials
     Reply #67 - July 29, 2014, 01:26 AM

    You can see my argument in the previous pages. Currently I need to show Lua why it doesn't make sense for us to intervene on the basis of the human rights charter. This will have to wait though.


    Would you be able to summarise it here now?

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: Indian witch trials
     Reply #68 - July 29, 2014, 07:11 AM

    I don't think anyone would object to that - even Islamic hadiths supposedly say that haraam meat becomes halaal to Muslims if they are starving for many days.

    I think a more interesting question here is: would you eat human meat if you were stranded and starving and one of the people in your (let's say, mountain climbing party) group died of natural causes?

    My 2c: why not? I'd expect them to eat my body if I was done with it. No point wasting it if it'll keep them alive. Once I'm dead it's going to provide food for some organism(s) anyway.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Indian witch trials
     Reply #69 - July 29, 2014, 07:46 AM

    Quote
    This is probably worth a read regarding human rights

    http://www.worldpolicy.org/tharoor.html

    But yeezee,

    Why do you consider human life more valuable than animal life?


       Hmmmm  tharoor .... Shahsi tharoor............   Sunanada  tharoor.

    mubs_352  Is that link a random pick or specific to human rights from that fellow??



    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Indian witch trials
     Reply #70 - July 29, 2014, 09:23 AM

    Mubs, what exactly is your argument?


    I don't think even he knows what he's arguing here.

    First he was trying to justify the deaths of women claimed to be witches as a cultural practise that we have no right to interfere with.

    Secondly he made a pathetic attempt at defending cultural relativism. When the redundancy of that argument was revealed to him he went on to the following argument.

    Thirdly, that human rights are a western imposition on others. He then downloaded some year 9 students paper on human rights and has been copying and pasting it since.

    Fourthly, he's thrown in some on-the-spot philosophy too. He doesn't realise that philosophy works on hypothetical scenarios in order to demonstrate its validity or flaws and that it is merely beyond asking questions but about justifying a position as well.

    Mubs you wannabe Socrates - answer the questions and stop running away and hiding.

    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Indian witch trials
     Reply #71 - July 29, 2014, 09:54 AM

    He then downloaded some year 9 students paper on human rights and has been copying and pasting it since.

    How I do half of my assignments.

    @mubs, If a man is beating his wife, assuming she doesn't like/want it(Lel BDSM), then he has violated her human rights as it's a form of torture. As a result of that, he is subject to punishment. Now I could tell you all about the articles and stuff and human rights and I honestly do find it pretty fascinating but as you've clearly pointed out your disinterest in the subject I won't.(Though I would recommend taking a look http://www.humanrights.com/what-are-human-rights.html it's much better than the nonsense you posted)

    You literally have no control over your birth; place, time, family, gender, etc... How would you like it if you were tortured and then burned alive for being a woman(girl?) of less-than-great descent? I doubt you'd like it too much. Human rights have saved so many Muslim(or otherwise) apostates from imprisonment, torture, or even murder.

    أشهد أن لا إله
  • Indian witch trials
     Reply #72 - July 29, 2014, 09:58 AM

    Quote
    How I do half of my assignments


    So long as you properly reference it then it should be ok.

    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Indian witch trials
     Reply #73 - July 29, 2014, 09:59 AM

    This one

    "Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person."

    doesnt hold in any country. For which country is without prisons and what prisoner has liberty? No 'life' is life in prison.

    But you will argue that this is acceptable as prisons are required to enforce the rule of Law and without Law there is no civilization and consequently no Charter of Human Rights.

    So what of the Law, for instance, that prescribes stoning for adultery. We are told that this law violates human rights, but why? Is it not also a Law, chosen by a society for the betterment of that society?

    So why is one law ok and another not ok. And who decides? I dont see this criteria in the charter.

    So the charter does not define what Law must be used, and of course it cannot, for a Law results from the values and cultural traditions of a society, To have 'universal' human rights, one must have a 'universal' law but that would require 'universal' values and a 'universal' culture which can only be created by means of Cultural Imperialism.


    (As a side note, I live in Britain and do not consider that I am granted this right

    No one shall be held in slavery or servitude; slavery and the slave trade shall be prohibited in all their forms.

    A percentage of my income is forceably (violently) taken from me to support state schemes I dont believe in but cannot opt-out of. Dont be confused, this is servitude, enforced by the political classes by the support of the majority against the minority. Human right would allow me to opt out of these schemes (such as state welfare for instance). )



  • Indian witch trials
     Reply #74 - July 29, 2014, 10:02 AM

    Quote
    doesnt hold in any country. For which country is without prisons and what prisoner has liberty? No 'life' is life in prison.


    Welcome to class Mubs. We're learning about Citizenship today and the first unit of Citizenship is to do with Rights and Responsibilities. What this means is that we are all entitled to have our human rights observed and maintained and when these laws are violated that there is an agency to protect our human rights from further violation. We are also RESPONSIBLE for our actions in that if we violate human rights and break the law than a component of our human rights is abdicated through our actions.

    This is what I teach my Year 7's. So long as you have a DBS certificate you can join us.

    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Indian witch trials
     Reply #75 - July 29, 2014, 10:06 AM

    A percentage of my income is forceably (violently) taken from me to support state schemes I dont believe in but cannot opt-out of. Dont be confused, this is servitude, enforced by the political classes by the support of the majority against the minority. Human right would allow me to opt out of these schemes (such as state welfare for instance). )


    Why do I have to pay taxes it's so UNFAIR! I'd rather pay for my own medical treatment. Screw others. Screw the NHS. Screw the welfare state.


    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Indian witch trials
     Reply #76 - July 29, 2014, 10:07 AM

    Jedi, thats not my point. See below


    So what of the Law, for instance, that prescribes stoning for adultery. We are told that this law violates human rights, but why? Is it not also a Law, chosen by a society for the betterment of that society?

    So why is one law ok and another not ok. And who decides? I dont see this criteria in the charter.


  • Indian witch trials
     Reply #77 - July 29, 2014, 10:10 AM

    No mubs - you had several points. I showed you the renduancy of all but one of them. I'll wait for others to do that because I refuse to humour your stupidity any further at this time. I will do so when I'm bored though.

    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Indian witch trials
     Reply #78 - July 29, 2014, 10:15 AM

    But guys, though I agree it seems pretty messed up, isn't it upto them to live according to the culture and religion that they choose? These 'witch trials' are clearly part of a larger culture, would you choose that they stop following that and live according to what you think is right?

    In that first post, all I can see are a couple of westerners trying to show how their culture is so superior to 'the other' by showing the most extreme cases. Just another type of cultural imperialism.

    This is no different to how Christians and Muslims forced so many people to convert, because they too believed they were right.



    In case you are not a troll but just a culural relativist cunt.

    You do know people burned witches at the stake some hundreds of years ago in "the West" as well? So you think white westerners deserve better from life than brown people? You know, because it's "their culture" to believe in delusions that lead to innocent people's death, misery and horrible pain? I mean, white people could move on to a better life but brown people are so fucking retarded that we just cannot afford to have solidarity with our fellow (brown) human beings in an effort to together create a just world where people are not murdered, tortured or starving because of human stupidity.

    I mean, really.... *facepalm*

    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • Indian witch trials
     Reply #79 - July 29, 2014, 10:21 AM




     Is this some Muslim hard core BDSM going on or what? :-O

    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • Indian witch trials
     Reply #80 - July 29, 2014, 10:26 AM

    Deleted - Accidental post
  • Indian witch trials
     Reply #81 - July 29, 2014, 10:29 AM

    So what of the Law, for instance, that prescribes stoning for adultery. We are told that this law violates human rights, but why? Is it not also a Law, chosen by a society for the betterment of that society?

    So why is one law ok and another not ok. And who decides? I dont see this criteria in the charter.-mubs_352

    Yes, but this law of stoning people because of adultery was made thousands of years ago. Countries where this law is practiced is not chosen by society at all, let alone to make it better, it is allowed by the more dominant in society to oppress the weak.


    So the charter does not define what Law must be used, and of course it cannot, for a Law results from the values and cultural traditions of a society, To have 'universal' human rights, one must have a 'universal' law but that would require 'universal' values and a 'universal' culture which can only be created by means of Cultural Imperialism.-mubz_352


    This is just my opinion, but giving people human rights is way more important than allowing a culture to survive that allows human rights to be taken away.

    Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. - Terry Pratchett
  • Indian witch trials
     Reply #82 - July 29, 2014, 10:41 AM


    (Clicky for piccy!)
     Is this some Muslim hard core BDSM going on or what? :-O


    Tagged as: Humiliation, mind control, Sexy Arab, MILF, brainwash, Islam, Qur'an, Stoning, Danger Fetish, Doggy style

    أشهد أن لا إله
  • Indian witch trials
     Reply #83 - July 29, 2014, 11:14 AM

    This one

    "Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person."

    doesnt hold in any country. For which country is without prisons and what prisoner has liberty? No 'life' is life in prison.

    But you will argue that this is acceptable as prisons are required to enforce the rule of Law and without Law there is no civilization and consequently no Charter of Human Rights.

    So what of the Law, for instance, that prescribes stoning for adultery. We are told that this law violates human rights, but why? Is it not also a Law, chosen by a society for the betterment of that society?

    So why is one law ok and another not ok. And who decides? I dont see this criteria in the charter.

    So the charter does not define what Law must be used, and of course it cannot, for a Law results from the values and cultural traditions of a society, To have 'universal' human rights, one must have a 'universal' law but that would require 'universal' values and a 'universal' culture which can only be created by means of Cultural Imperialism.


    (As a side note, I live in Britain and do not consider that I am granted this right

    No one shall be held in slavery or servitude; slavery and the slave trade shall be prohibited in all their forms.

    A percentage of my income is forceably (violently) taken from me to support state schemes I dont believe in but cannot opt-out of. Dont be confused, this is servitude, enforced by the political classes by the support of the majority against the minority. Human right would allow me to opt out of these schemes (such as state welfare for instance). )





     Cheesy

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Indian witch trials
     Reply #84 - July 29, 2014, 01:25 PM

    So if a group of people decide they want to live in a certain way that has no effect on you, you would still consider it acceptable to impose you standards on them if you coult, just because of something you saw thousands of miles away on TV?

    I disagree. The practioners of the witchcraft took away the right of the victim to live.

    वासुदैव कुटुम्बकम्
    Entire World is One Family
    سارا سنسار ايک پريوار ہے
  • Indian witch trials
     Reply #85 - July 29, 2014, 01:50 PM

    Oh man, mubs. This was a more pathetic reply than I expected.

    This one

    "Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person."

    doesnt hold in any country. For which country is without prisons and what prisoner has liberty? No 'life' is life in prison.

    But you will argue that this is acceptable as prisons are required to enforce the rule of Law and without Law there is no civilization and consequently no Charter of Human Rights.


    For one thing, not surprised that you're trying to squirm your way onto a better platform by picking on this one because of the necessities of jail. Do I really need to explain to you the basic principle that one's rights end where the others' rights begin? Again, a distraction, and an unremarkable one at that.

    Your original question was basically if you could wave a magic wand and stop this aspect of the culture (killing witches), would you? And I said yes, and you clutched your pearls and cried Western Imperialism. Like I said, I'm not interested in you telling me that the implication is actually very hard. No shit. So your position is that you just don't think some people are innately entitled to be free and alive and safe?

    Quote
    So what of the Law, for instance, that prescribes stoning for adultery. We are told that this law violates human rights, but why? Is it not also a Law, chosen by a society for the betterment of that society?

    So why is one law ok and another not ok. And who decides? I dont see this criteria in the charter.


    Let's take the torture clause for that one. Any more questions about stoning?

    Quote
    So the charter does not define what Law must be used, and of course it cannot, for a Law results from the values and cultural traditions of a society, To have 'universal' human rights, one must have a 'universal' law but that would require 'universal' values and a 'universal' culture which can only be created by means of Cultural Imperialism.


    See reply above, and then get back on subject.

    Quote
    No one shall be held in slavery or servitude; slavery and the slave trade shall be prohibited in all their forms.
    A percentage of my income is forceably (violently) taken from me to support state schemes I dont believe in but cannot opt-out of. Dont be confused, this is servitude, enforced by the political classes by the support of the majority against the minority.


    For one thing, you're disgusting for trying to twist a sentence that clearly, clearly addresses people being bought and sold as property and equating it to you babbling over the injustice of paying taxes in the comfort of Britain. We're not talking about taxes. We're talking about the human slave trade. You picked this out, so are you cool with the human slave trade?

  • Indian witch trials
     Reply #86 - July 29, 2014, 02:03 PM

    Good one lua.  Afro

    Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. - Terry Pratchett
  • Indian witch trials
     Reply #87 - July 29, 2014, 02:09 PM

     Thank you sign
  • Indian witch trials
     Reply #88 - July 29, 2014, 02:36 PM

    Let's take the torture clause for that one. Any more questions about stoning?


    You cant say that without running into a contradiction.

    You're saying the torture clause overrules the law that adultery be punished. Yet the right of liberty does not overrule the law that theft be punished by incarceration.

    So you are arbritarly picking out and applying clauses to suit your personal worldview.

    For one thing, you're disgusting for trying to twist a sentence that clearly, clearly addresses people being bought and sold as property and equating it to you babbling over the injustice of paying taxes in the comfort of Britain. We're not talking about taxes. We're talking about the human slave trade. You picked this out, so are you cool with the human slave trade?


    No, but neither am I cool with forcing people into a system they dont agree with. I dont really see the difference, one might be worse than the other, but only in degree not in nature.
  • Indian witch trials
     Reply #89 - July 29, 2014, 03:11 PM

    Quote
    You're saying the torture clause overrules the law that adultery be punished. Yet the right of liberty does not overrule the law that theft be punished by incarceration.

    So you are arbritarly picking out and applying clauses to suit your personal worldview.


    Not what I'm saying, but nice try. I haven't said a word about what set of laws would be imposed besides the basic ones. You keep diverting from the subject and picking on things I haven't even spoken about. Since you're having a hard time reading, let me translate my list into something you can understand, and then we can go from there:

    1. People are born deserving of equal dignity.

    2. An individual has the right to be alive, not a slave, and feel safe, unless he breaks known, codified laws whose punishment in his country is also known and codified, and he is punished to that precise extent. No, you still can't torture. Not saying anything about which laws he'd be breaking, so your constant attempt to bring that up is diverting from the subject. There is flexibility here. That's how you can keep your cultural values without slaughtering each other in lynching mobs.

    3. Someone's gender, race, sexuality, religious belief and all of that good stuff will not make them any lesser in the eyes of the law.

    4. Real slavery is forbidden. You're a free man, mubs. You are tired of paying taxes? Fuck off to another country and don't pay taxes. Saudi Arabia won't make you pay a dime. If only freeing yourself from actual slavery was so easy as just walking away!

    5. No unnecessarily cruel punishments, no torture. You know, stoning.

    6. Everyone has the right to be recognized as a person before the law, everyone's equal before the law and entitled to equal protection. Can't make that one much easier for you.

    7. Everyone has the right to an effective remedy by the competent national tribunals for acts violating the fundamental rights granted him by the constitution or by law. Can't make that one easier, either.

    8. No one can be arrested or jailed or kicked out of their country for no reason.

    9. Everyone gets a fair trial, and their criminal activity (as defined by the codified laws made prior to the time of the activity) is rewarded with the prescribed punishment only, no excess, no torture, end of story. Presumed innocent until proven guilty.

    10. Anyone--and this is very important, mubs--has the right to leave their country, and has the right to flee from persecution and seek asylum in other countries. This is one of the most vital parts of the whole. As long as there is freedom of movement, freedom to leave the country (yes, even for women and minorities) to rebuild elsewhere if they do not agree with the codified laws of their region, you can make some defense for keeping laws on the books that are counter to Western ideals.

    11. No one has to be forced to live in the wilderness outside of society.

    12. People get to get married and have families. No, no child brides. Consent always necessary for both partners.

    13. You get to own stuff without someone coming and seizing it for no reason.

    14. Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, can't make that easier.

    15. Everyone has the right to freedom of peaceful assembly and association. Ain't nothing simpler than that.

    So, now that you have the full list of my claims, I hope you can stop going on tirades about paying taxes and laws against adultery. There is some flexibility in keeping your laws and your cultural values, even if I don't personally like them, as long as there is the protected right of every individual to leave the country, as long as they are treated fairly within the country and their basic rights as stated above protected.

    We got here because you heard a story about a bunch of girls being murdered for a crime that someone can't even commit. For a crime that doesn't exist. And your position appears to be that, depending on where you were born, that's tough luck, but human lives are worth less than human superstition.

    And then somehow you wanted sympathy over being "forced" to spare a minor portion of your income for welfare and public services. It's a little tasteless to use emoticons when you're engaging in a conversation like this with another person, but I can't help it, I have the perfect little guy for you.  eusa_boohoo
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