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Theme Changer

 Topic: Allah is an unpleasant character.

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  • Allah is an unpleasant character.
     OP - July 24, 2014, 08:48 PM
    I was reading 'The Cambridge Companion to the Qur'an' today for research purposes and came across this and thought I'd share it:

    Extract from Angelika Neurwith, 'Structural, linguistic and literary features',

    ‘In early Meccan texts, polemical utterances are more often than not directed against listeners who do not comply with the behavioural norms of the cult. These listeners are reprimanded by the speaker who is explicitly addressing them (Q53:59ff). Sometimes curses are uttered, against absent persons (Q111:1ff), or against humankind in general (Q80:17). In other cases menacing words are directed at the ungrateful or pretentious (Q114:1) and these may merge into a catalogue of vices (Q107:2-7)’ and a little later adds ‘Often polemics respond to the unbelievers’ rejection of the Qur’an, again figuring at the beginning or the end, or in the conclusions of the main parts of the suras.’ (p.108)

    You can access some of the texts here:

    http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=F2oLiXT_66EC&pg=PA158&lpg=PA158&dq=Forgotten+Witness:+Evidence+For+The+Early+Codification+Of+The+Qur%27an&source=bl&ots=kOc8Uup68X&sig=rXRVne9LyVpNVQn2zYURAuciwsY&hl=en&sa=X&ei=62HRU_DHFOeg7Aa1k4HABg&ved=0CEQQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q&f=false

    After reading the above facts how can anyone claim that the Koran is in anyway beautiful and eloquent?
    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Allah is an unpleasant character.
     Reply #1 - July 24, 2014, 08:59 PM
    Allah is very much the god of the old testament. I suppose it's the same as those who claim yahweh isn't all that bad. Lot of cherry picking and ignoring I'm guessing.
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Allah is an unpleasant character.
     Reply #2 - July 24, 2014, 09:12 PM
    This just in: The Qur'an hurls verbal abuse at unbelievers.

    Who would've guessed.

     Tongue
  • Allah is an unpleasant character.
     Reply #3 - July 24, 2014, 09:23 PM
     
    Quote from: Quod Sum Eris on July 24, 2014, 08:59 PM
    Allah is very much the god of the old testament. I suppose it's the same as those who claim yahweh isn't all that bad. Lot of cherry picking and ignoring I'm guessing.


    Definitely. Angelika has been criticised for being too sympathetic to Muslim traditional accounts and this reference surprised me when I came across it.

    I love this specifically:

    Quote
    Sometimes curses are uttered, against absent persons.


    Allah sounds like a mentally deranged nut job having a rant becuase nobody is paying attention to him.

    Abu Ali, the point isn't that the Qur'an is hurling abuse at unbelievers. I'm sure that you can take the covnersation further than that. For instance the earlier verses are polemical in nature whilst the later ones are more toned down according to Neurwith because Muhammad was trying to create a discourse with other tribes and further legitimise his 'prophethood' by positioning himself within other competing faith narratives at the time.

    Interestingly, some people have argued that it is the earlier verses that are less violent and were exchatalogical in nature when in fact all throughout the Qur'an there's a plethora of direct/indirect threats both of a temporal and non-temporal nature. That Muslims and non-Muslims alike are able to read the Qur'an, which is interspersed with verses of hate, and still call it a thing of transcendental beauty astounds me still

    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Allah is an unpleasant character.
     Reply #4 - July 24, 2014, 09:31 PM
    I think a better way of phrasing it would be to ask why would one call evil good? In my eyes the god of the quran is evil. People attempt to justify this evil by finding things that aren't evil. You know, Hitler murdered millions of innocent people, but you know what, he bloody well made sure the trains ran on time, so he's not all bad.

    A serial killer goes on a mass murder/rape spree terrorising and causing untold pain and misery, but you know what, he loved his mum. Gave her a card every Christmas, so you can't say he's a bad man.

    This is the argument, it seems to me.
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Allah is an unpleasant character.
     Reply #5 - July 24, 2014, 09:35 PM
    Quote from: Jedi on July 24, 2014, 09:23 PM
    For instance the earlier verses are polemical in nature whilst the later ones are more toned down according to Neurwith because Muhammad was trying to create a discourse with other tribes and further legitimise his 'prophethood' by positioning himself within other competing faith narratives at the time.


    I'm not sure how true that is tbh. There are some pretty nasty Medinan verses - i.e the notorious verse of the sword. There is also a lot berating of the Kuffar and threats of Hell in the Medinan verses. Add to that the fact that it is often not known precisely which parts of which sura are Meccan or Medinan.

    Quote from: Jedi on July 24, 2014, 09:23 PM
    That Muslims and non-Muslims alike are able to read the Qur'an, which is interspersed with verses of hate, and still call it a thing of transcendental beauty astounds me still


    Yes, me too.
  • Allah is an unpleasant character.
     Reply #6 - July 24, 2014, 09:41 PM
    I think what you're trying to say is that people will see beauty in something. That's not a better way at rephrasing anything, it's just another question. Alot of the comments related to the Quran and Allaha re based upon ignorance and a lack of appreciation for its contents.

    But, there are aspects of the Qur'an that are lovely. I love certain suras, my particular favourite is sura nas (114), amongst other verse, which are value neutral at best.

    The fact is, can anything that contians such violent imagery and threatens other people with violence and damnation for rejecting a 'message' be cosnider an onjectively eloquent or beautiful book.
    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Allah is an unpleasant character.
     Reply #7 - July 24, 2014, 09:44 PM
    Yes. Not by me obviously or any right minded individual, but I think a lot of people gloss over it. I do not believe that most muslims are evil. If I'm right, then the evil of islam is something they won't think about, isn't what jumps out at them or whatever else. Cherry picking.

    I can't see it that way because I can't ignore the wicked parts, of which there are many.
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Allah is an unpleasant character.
     Reply #8 - July 24, 2014, 09:47 PM
    Quote from: Abu Ali on July 24, 2014, 09:35 PM
    I'm not sure how true that is tbh. There are some pretty nasty Medinan verses - i.e the notorious verse of the sword. There is also a lot berating of the Kuffar and threats of Hell in the Medinan verses. Add to that the fact that it is often not known precisely which parts of which sura are Meccan or Medinan.


    That's what surprised me too when I read this. What she's saying is not that violence is absent, but rather there is a shift from being principally 'polemical' in nature to adopt a more 'debate/discourse' narrative thus the shift from saj to mantric speech and prose style.

    Her argument is not definitive. I think the problems lie more with the Medinan suras as some scholars have noted elements of what would constitute saj/Meccan verses in the 'later' verses. I was reading the 'The Quran made linear' and it follows the deabte and attempts to fix the Qur'an to a specific chronological order and there appears to be surprising agreement between Muslim and non-Muslim scholars.

    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Allah is an unpleasant character.
     Reply #9 - July 24, 2014, 09:50 PM
    Quote from: Quod Sum Eris on July 24, 2014, 09:44 PM
    Yes. Not by me obviously or any right minded individual, but I think a lot of people gloss over it. I do not believe that most muslims are evil. If I'm right, then the evil of islam is something they won't think about, isn't what jumps out at them or whatever else. Cherry picking.

    I can't see it that way because I can't ignore the wicked parts, of which there are many.


    It might be overly critical side of me, but sometimes I read a verse of the Qur'an and my initial repulsion at a polemical verse soon dissipates because I am left asking myself whether or not, on account of my apostasy, I WANT to read negativity into the text. Do you understand what I mean?

    Also, I love reading these analyses by scholars who tend to add more layers to the debate.
    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Allah is an unpleasant character.
     Reply #10 - July 24, 2014, 10:00 PM
    I know exactly what you mean. Earlier I mentioned that allah is very much the god of the old testament. Morally, the old testament is repulsive much in the same way the quran is, but that doesn't mean there aren't gems. I find the Song of Solomon (King James) very beautiful, but that doesn't mean I can't also see the murder, violence, racism, misogyny and divine calls for genocide.
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Allah is an unpleasant character.
     Reply #11 - July 24, 2014, 10:05 PM
    Quote from: Jedi on July 24, 2014, 09:47 PM
    there is a shift from being principally 'polemical' in nature to adopt a more 'debate/discourse' narrative thus the shift from saj to mantric speech and prose style.


    Nothing new in that. Medinan verses were - by definition - aimed at consolidating the community in Medina, laying down laws etc... plus narratives about past prophets etc... while the Meccan suras, which include most of the short suras at the end, are much shorter, terse and as you say in Saj' - with more startling, mystical imagry of the day of judgment, heaven and hell etc...

    This is all long known by Muslim scholars and Orientalists - Sorry but I fail to see anything new that she's saying?
  • Allah is an unpleasant character.
     Reply #12 - July 24, 2014, 10:08 PM
    Isn't that the pronography bit of the Bible?

    Sounds good:  Afro

     dance Song of Songs 8:1-3 "If only you were to me like a brother, who was nursed at my mother's breasts! Then, if I found you outside, I would kiss you, and no one would despise me.  I would lead you and bring you to my mother's house-- she who has taught me. I would give you spiced wine to drink [i.e., her vagina's semen!], the nectar of my pomegranates.  His left arm is under my head and his right arm embraces me."  dance

    And what do we get in the Koran:

     finmad fucking fair skinned virgins whose marrow bone you can see.  finmad
    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Allah is an unpleasant character.
     Reply #13 - July 24, 2014, 10:12 PM
    Quote from: Abu Ali on July 24, 2014, 10:05 PM
    This is all long known by Muslim scholars and Orientalists - Sorry but I fail to see anything new that she's saying?


    Sorry, but why are you assuming this was posted specifically for you? There's lots of stuff on these forums that isn't especially new but things are bought up to encourage discussion and access resources/scholars some may not have heard of before.

    Of course, we all have a general idea of the Qur'anic composition and its (dis)organisation but don't assume everybody else does.
    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Allah is an unpleasant character.
     Reply #14 - July 24, 2014, 10:25 PM
    Forgive me. My mistake.
  • Allah is an unpleasant character.
     Reply #15 - July 24, 2014, 10:28 PM
    I think it's an interesting question into the broader mentality of cherry picking itself. Like someone who believes in Adam and Eve because they have to but they also realise evolution is true, but they try not to think about evolution. I'm differentiating between those who try to combine the two by making the story of Adam and Eve symbolic i.e. it represents when allah gave us unique souls and we're no longer just animals but perhaps I shouldn't.
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Allah is an unpleasant character.
     Reply #16 - July 24, 2014, 10:30 PM
    As I stated I'm doing some research on the Koran, it's literary features and composition so any information, of an academic, nature would be useful.

    You can see how constructing an argument without reference to academics or sources, other than as I already know, would eb troublesome. I'm simply stunned by the apparent lack of accessible data out there.

    Regardless, I'm interested in the 'elequonce' of the Koran and there's not much of an academic insight, unless my research methods are flawed. I've searched amazon, Google for books and journal articles. I wish I had access to Jstor.
    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Allah is an unpleasant character.
     Reply #17 - July 24, 2014, 10:33 PM
    Ask in the Skype group? I'm sure stopspamming, Kling etc. would be able to give some recommendations.
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Allah is an unpleasant character.
     Reply #18 - July 24, 2014, 10:33 PM
    Quote from: Quod Sum Eris on July 24, 2014, 10:28 PM
    I think it's an interesting question into the broader mentality of cherry picking itself. Like someone who believes in Adam and Eve because they have to but they also realise evolution is true, but they try not to think about evolution. I'm differentiating between those who try to combine the two by making the story of Adam and Eve symbolic i.e. it represents when allah gave us unique souls and we're no longer just animals but perhaps I shouldn't.


    But does the beauty of the Koran lie in its allegorical meaning or in the fact that the events are conceived to be true? If the Adam and Eve story is revealed not to be true, does that then render the Koran less eloquent/beautiful? Why would a God lie? Does this make the Qur'an in anyway 'ugly'?
    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Allah is an unpleasant character.
     Reply #19 - July 25, 2014, 06:52 AM
    Isn't the mecca medina distinctions assuming a classic history of mo is correct?

    What if it is all stuff on goats bones completely muddled written two hundred years later?
    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Allah is an unpleasant character.
     Reply #20 - July 25, 2014, 07:05 AM
    Quote from: Jedi on July 24, 2014, 10:33 PM
    But does the beauty of the Koran lie in its allegorical meaning or in the fact that the events are conceived to be true? If the Adam and Eve story is revealed not to be true, does that then render the Koran less eloquent/beautiful? Why would a God lie? Does this make the Qur'an in anyway 'ugly'?

    Eye of the beholder.
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Allah is an unpleasant character.
     Reply #21 - July 25, 2014, 07:06 AM
    Quote from: moi on July 25, 2014, 06:52 AM
    Isn't the mecca medina distinctions assuming a classic history of mo is correct?

    What if it is all stuff on goats bones completely muddled written two hundred years later?

    I think there was a Jinn&Tonic show on that.
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Allah is an unpleasant character.
     Reply #22 - July 25, 2014, 08:38 AM
    Quote from: moi on July 25, 2014, 06:52 AM
    What if it is all stuff on goats bones completely muddled written two hundred years later?


    There's a split in the scholarly community in relation to that. The likes of Fred Donner believe the Qur'anic text is early whereas some others such as Yehuda Nova and Judith Koren believe it to be a later text. From what I've read, the majority of scholars beleive that the Qur'anic text is an early text. One of the reasons for this is the lack of any mentioned of any significant events which would firmly place the Qur'an during the Ummayid or the Abbassid era.
    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Allah is an unpleasant character.
     Reply #23 - July 25, 2014, 09:07 AM
    Old goat bones collated badly later?
    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Allah is an unpleasant character.
     Reply #24 - July 25, 2014, 10:41 AM
    I dont know if Puin has further refined his views but from my understanding, based upon the Sana'a manuscripts, the earliest Qur'an dates to anywhere between 705-715.

    The authenticity of the 'goat eating' hadith is disputed. Can anyone elaborate on this at all?
    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Allah is an unpleasant character.
     Reply #25 - July 25, 2014, 11:51 AM
    I thought arabic was not that advanced as a written language in the 700's so might later writing have been done on older papyrus?  Someone had some old stuff lying around that they found and used?  Wasn't there a shortage of papyrus at some points?
    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Allah is an unpleasant character.
     Reply #26 - November 05, 2014, 02:13 AM
    Quote from: Jedi on July 25, 2014, 08:38 AM
    There's a split in the scholarly community in relation to that. The likes of Fred Donner believe the Qur'anic text is early whereas some others such as Yehuda Nova and Judith Koren believe it to be a later text. From what I've read, the majority of scholars beleive that the Qur'anic text is an early text. One of the reasons for this is the lack of any mentioned of any significant events which would firmly place the Qur'an during the Ummayid or the Abbassid era.


    David Ross, and independent but very learned scholar, actually postulates that much of the Quran's material is related to the 2nd fitna and Umayyad politics between the end of the 7th and the beginning of the 8th centuries. You can find a lot of his essays for free here:

    https://sites.google.com/site/zimrielproject/islam/

    He also has written three books to the subject which are on my reading list:

    http://www.amazon.com/Throne-Glass-Formations-Islamic-State/dp/1502536374/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1415153511&sr=8-1&keywords=Throne+of+Glass+islamic+state

    http://www.amazon.com/House-War-Mecca-Propaganda-675-695/dp/1478162589/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1415153582&sr=1-1

    http://www.amazon.com/Arabs-Their-Quran-David-Ross/dp/1469923157/ref=pd_bxgy_b_img_y



    إطلب العلم ولو في الصين

    Es sitzt keine Krone so fest und so hoch,
    Der mutige Springer erreicht sie doch.

    I don't give a fuck about your war, or your President.
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